Heart Shield and Dragons Thread 32 - Some Festive Edition

[trancehime]

r.haku is now also one of the strongest dark subs in the game bar none: 2500 ATK and 1000 RCV when hypered on top of having a 7c awakening is really fucking dumb, there is really no reason not to REVO her right away

[commandercool]

On the offensive end though, she gains a fair few powerful options, with Satsuki being a notable one especially with her having a quad TPA facemelter ult.

As much as it'll take getting used to I think the 2/3 thing will be, like you're saying, just as good as 3/4, plus the damage reduction being universal now makes a lot of possibly threatening things much less so, such as off-color preemptive strikes and similar.

I am somewhat sad that once RKarin is a thing Courage won't see nearly as much usefulness for me.  Her big deal was letting me resist light/fire enemies, since they were chinks in the armor of the resist LS until this point.  Still lets me make wood enemies much less annoying to grind down though.

Do keep in mind that you can get all blue resists for Karin and all of her subs for another 26% (assuming nobody has six latents and you friend lead has rainbow resists) shield with Courage on. Probably not quite as relevant on Karin as it is on Gabriel, but still might be worth starting to collect those blue resists now.

[Jq1790]

Eh, I'll probably shoot for stat ups now since I used light resists on everyone who didn't have a huge stat somewhere(see: Orochi) and/or SDR(see: trashwaifu) since light was a weakness but now everything is 51% resisted so I don't need it anymore.  Some more HP would be good more than anything probably since my RCV is already decent

[The Greatest Dog]

Pantheons are a lie

Gamble Mage
Alfecca
Baldin
Skuld
LMeta
Satsuki
Carat
Saria

:|
(Baldin is cool tho)

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Dupe Tsubaki
Dupe LMeta
Dupe M E A T B A L L

[OverlordChirei]

Carat

Carat alone is worth all those stones.

[commandercool]

Just like I imagine everyone else is right now, Im finding myself combing back over the MP monsters trying to decide if I want any.

I really like how Ragnarok Dragon looks, but I can't really justify a team for it. The blue Noble One doesn't seem that great or interesting to me.

Might just buy Courage. Probably not strictly necessary, but she might be nice to have for some random C10s and stuff.

[Zengar Zombolt]

I got a new GFE! :D
It was Ronove! D:

[The Greatest Dog]

Something something carat
Something x625
One day, I'll get x2025 for the same board

[hyorinryu]

I'm not a huge fan of the reincarnated Chinese art. I don't 'think they look bad, but some of the Awokens(particularly Leilan) look so great that the reincarnate feels like a huge downgrade.

[Chaore]

Just like I imagine everyone else is right now, Im finding myself combing back over the MP monsters trying to decide if I want any.

One day, there MAY be a good red MP monster.

One day.

[commandercool]

One day, there MAY be a good red MP monster.

One day.

But what of Pure? WHAT OF PUUUUURE?

[Hikarin]

Actually though, I'm looking at getting Pure soon. I have enough stuff to change Antares's evolution, letting me actually do semi-decent red damage. I happened to get a couple of Kuvias during Heroine REM, so...

[Chaore]

But what of Pure? WHAT OF PUUUUURE?

That's what Chirei exists for.

The puppets are good but usually overkill, though exceptions exist. If I hit 750k and nothings shown, I'll prolly buy her though.

[commandercool]

Puppeteers are definitely niche, but I think in a time of Awoken Greeks they're more relevant than they ever have been. You're not gonna need them all the time, but when you need them you kind of need them.

[Chaore]

Puppeteers are definitely niche, but I think in a time of Awoken Greeks they're more relevant than they ever have been. You're not gonna need them all the time, but when you need them you kind of need them.

No, that makes them more niche than they've ever been, because now instead of a sick stacking booster, they're a very situational off-color sub for a different team.

Like, holy shit. I know why you're saying that but that's about where i'm going to say 'There is probably a more sane, smarter way about this'.

[commandercool]

No, that makes them more niche than they've ever been, because now instead of a sick stacking booster, they're a very situational off-color sub for a different team.

Like, holy shit. I know why you're saying that but that's about where i'm going to say 'There is probably a more sane, smarter way about this'.

Wait, what? How does a significant and powerful new way to use them make them LESS broadly useful? That would only make sense if it somehow invalidated the old ways of using them. Which it doesn't. There are now more different situations where you can use them for things. I literally don't know what you mean.

[OverlordChirei]

Wait, what? How does a significant and powerful new way to use them make them LESS broadly useful? That would only make sense if it somehow invalidated the old ways of using them. Which it doesn't. There are now more different situations where you can use them for things. I literally don't know what you mean.

It's probably very unlikely that the ReGreeks need them to actually clear a dungeon because their damage output is already pretty good, and you'd basically dilute their damage to get -75% damage on something, since in every case you'd be using an offcolor sub. They would probably do just as well using an on-color shield and killing said thing you're trying to use it on because they're already so strong.

[commandercool]

As someone who runs a Reincarnated Greek team a lot, you definitely don't need a puppeteer most of the time. And quite often the thing fucking you up is an off-color preempt, which a puppeteer doesn't help with.

That said, there have been a handful of dungeons, mostly C10s but also a one-shot challenge, that Reptune just isn't plausibly able to clear, even with a Susano inherit. And in each of these cases, Courage would have allowed a clear. By letting me stall back up in the middle of a gauntlet of wrong-color enemies if nothing else.

Arguably the most necessary Puppeteer instance I can think of with a Revo Greek team is against Vishnu with Reptune. It's definitely possible with an Orochi active (and probably a Susano active as well)  but you better hope it's the last floor because you won't have much left after and there's a lot of room for error.

The *best* use of Puppeteers I'm aware of is still on hardcore stall teams like Archangels, but those are extremely niche so I wouldn't expect it come up for most people. Maybe the most common use for them is on Awoken Chinese, although it's quite a bit more awkward.

So buying one comes down to "Can I justify this purchase by having enough different places to use this weird active?" and the fact that a lot of people are playing Revo Greek right now and Puppeteers do have a relevant niche on those teams (albeit a very narrow one) means that you're more likely than ever to have enough different places to potentially use one to justify the purchase.

[OverlordChirei]

stuff

The thing is that this is all for a very specific instance for a very specific team, which while I should probably be the last person saying this, the saner solution just lies in "use another team".

The most public applications i've seen are to just stack even more damage where it shouldn't be, or 100% resist team cheese. It's honestly probably almost better for people to shell out 50k more MP on NepDra and stone out NoahDra for a lead that can tank Vishnu and a lot more and will generally be used for more than just one or two off-instances that don't favor a specific team.

Even Pure on Leilan is losing some effectiveness (but is still the best pairing out of all the Chinese) because now she resists all damage reincarnated, but still fills the missing color instantly as Revo, is the correct main color, has beneficial awakenings, and allows a team with not as good damage as ReGreeks to hit higher. But even this is probably heavily overshadowed by teams that are just simply better.

The point is that the Puppeteers do not instantly make a team good, or instantly make a good team. They exist to make specific, comparatively mediocre teams better, and are not things you can spend with MP that are instantly viable, which is why everyone and their mom is screaming for DAthena in the MP shop, since she does all that.

[commandercool]

I don't think Ultimate NepDra can tank Vishnu very effectively, can he? An optimal NepDra team has what, 65k HP (my NepDra team is nowhere near optimal given my lack of all of his best subs so maybe my frame of reference is off)? That's not really great for tanking an enemy that can cleanly two-shot him and periodically heartbreaks. I guess it depends on how many turns you think you can kill him in. It's definitely good enough to last for a handful of turns at least.

But yeah, re: puppeteers, this is that weird middle ground between "let's make stupid teams work" and "only play the best current meta team and no other cards are worth looking at". I'm certainly not trying to make the case that puppeteers are high-end meta, and I don't think you're trying to make the case that anything that isn't should never be used. They are useful on a small subset of teams. That subset is larger now than it ever has been. It will, admittedly, be shrinking once revo Chinese are out.

If you think each of those applications is too small or pointless to bother with, fine. But I don't. I certainly wouldn't recommend everyone go out and buy one right now, but there are plenty of cases where I think it's worth it.

[OverlordChirei]

I don't think Ultimate NepDra can tank Vishnu very effectively, can he? An optimal NepDra team has what, 65k HP (my NepDra team is nowhere near optimal given my lack of all of his best subs so maybe my frame of reference is off)? That's not really great for tanking an enemy that can cleanly two-shot him and periodically heartbreaks. I guess it depends on how many turns you think you can kill him in. It's definitely good enough to last for a handful of turns at least.

The poison gives you a definite edge, and almost all other teams would have a similar problem. I would also argue you have better damage control than teams of other colors since you have a high mult and 2m is a lot more generous than 1m to control. Super Nepdra would also work better on almost every other dungeon in the game. This is all disregarding the fact that cards like Fujin and Uruka will be coming out.

If you think each of those applications is too small or pointless to bother with, fine. But I don't. I certainly wouldn't recommend everyone go out and buy one right now, but there are plenty of cases where I think it's worth it.

The thing is Chaore is arguing that there isn't a super solid buy for red in the shop, and i'm lining out exactly why the puppets are not this. I think Shivadra is worse than Nepdra, and XM got phased out super hard, and I don't even see people using HXM even though she's Dark. Worth it or not, the puppeteers do not fill this point by a long shot. Most good teams nowadays are good because they do not need to waste a slot on the puppeteers to be good - and I say waste comparatively. I said earlier that the awakenings on Pure are all good for Leilan, but most teams nowadays would look at those awakenings/stats and scoff. They could just as well be one of the many 7-9 awakening subs with massively better stats out nowadays with a much less situational active.

Bottom line is, they're only going to catch your eye if you're already running something comparatively mediocre. You're not going to start running red if you aren't just because Pure exists. The argument here is that we're looking for an MP card that does exactly this.

[commandercool]

So is that what we're defining "good" as? Something that would cause you to make a new team? That's definitely not what I had in mind when I said that. I'm speaking purely from a point as "potentially worth spending MP on", which I think I've made pretty clear at this point I think puppeteers often are.

[OverlordChirei]

So is that what we're defining "good" as? Something that would cause you to make a new team?

Absolutely not.

I mean, look at it this way. The case you have is that you are using them to change the color of an enemy so you can resist them. Most workable teams nowadays just have means to reduce all types of damage, or straight-up have HP/RCV mults, which also work for all types of damage. ReGreeks are probably the only viable team as of now that even use the color resist gimmick now, and only three of them work with the puppeteers.

This leaves using them as an extended damage enhance. How many other teams that are NOT ReGreeks even need to stack this much damage to kill something? Is this something that cannot be solved by other means like using gravities, shields, or other enhances? I think most mults today are high enough to deal with most enemies without the need for this. Which means the sub slot can be used for a card with a more readily usable active, better stats, and better awakenings. Just to put into perspective how comparatively bad their stats are, Pure has a WST of ~685, and ORIGINAL R/G Leilan has a WST of ~745. That is fucking terrible, weaker than a card from like 2014. With cards now pushing 900~1000 WST without inherits in 2017, that is a lot of potential bulk you could be missing out on, as well as another active that could be... whatever you want, really.

This doesn't undermine the fact that you can use them in lieu of all these things, since the brunt of these things rely on what the REM gives you, but with how generous the game at this point, I feel like they're an afterthought to most people, and probably why Chaore is only considering the buy if too much MP accumulates. Speaking from experience, even I don't use Pure that much, and honestly mostly because she fills colors in a color-required leader and has two time extensions for casual play. All probably depends on how much you value your MP, and what you're expecting them to churn out in the future, especially since they're up to 750K purchases now.

[Thaws]

Noooooooooooooo
I was so close to an haku arena 3 solo clear
I even stalled noah dragon 99 turns for this
T___T

[O4rfish]

To anyone trying the Double Grodin team vs ZeusDra, PDX is wrong about one thing: Dragon Nova deals a small amount of damage in addition to removing buffs, so you won't be at full health for the 500% gravity.  You'd have to use an active to hit him and then use a 10% gravity. 

[Thaws]

To anyone trying the Double Grodin team vs ZeusDra, PDX is wrong about one thing: Dragon Nova deals a small amount of damage in addition to removing buffs, so you won't be at full health for the 500% gravity.  You'd have to use an active to hit him and then use a 10% gravity.

I never actually took dragonnova to the face before so I might be wrong but did you make sure you had buffs for him to remove?
Skyozora says he deals 8k instead of the dispelling if you don't have buffs for him.

[commandercool]

Yaay!



Aaaaah no no no fuck fuck fuck!



I stoned to beat her. I know, I know, it doesn't count. But it's been forever since I stoned to continue and if I had just gotten ONE skyfall and/or a slightly better Blonia board I would've had her. I'll go back for the fair clear eventually.

[trancehime]

https://www.facebook.com/notes/puzzle-dragons-north-america-gungho/evangelion-collab-returns/1575239109171342

ok

[commandercool]

Yaaaay! Not that we didn't know this was coming but I'm glad that it iiiiiis!