Author Topic: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests  (Read 7296 times)

Karisa

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Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« on: October 04, 2016, 09:27:49 PM »
It's been over a year since MotK has had any kind of Touhou challenge/tournament.

In the past there have been various challenge threads (which anyone can create). There were a variety of challenges, whether simply to play a game with a specified shot type, or more unusual ideas like avoiding graze or adding multiple games together, but they tended to not be especially popular.

Meanwhile, in contrast, Eientei's Dodging Rain Competition seems to have wildly succeeded despite being on a smaller site. I think pairing players of similar skill may be why that format has been more appealing, as opposed to ranking everyone together. Not that I'm proposing copying it; it's just an example.

I'd like to know what you'd prefer in a Touhou contest-- feel free to propose ideas.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 09:38:36 PM by Karisa »

Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2016, 09:51:27 PM »
I do like the whole "grouping players together based on skill" thing. I'm pretty good at Easy mode, but then again, I'm sure everyone is. I don't stand a chance against you Lunatic lunatics. :P

An idea I had was maybe going into Imperishable Night's Spell Practice and seeing who can clear the most spells in, say, 3 days? Even I can clear a few Lunatic and Last Word spells, so I think it'd be pretty interesting. Two problems I foresee, however, are 1) getting all of the spells unlocked in the first place and 2) proving we've cleared them in the timeframe of the contest. But if we can find a way to do that, I think it'd be pretty cool.

That's all I've got for now, but if I think of anything else I'll edit this post.

ZM

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2016, 11:48:30 PM »
I feel pairing people of similar skill is a great idea for a competition.

Glad DRC is a good inspiration!

Monarda

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2016, 12:04:38 AM »
Hm... maybe this will jumpstart my will for playing Touhou more, i miss the sheer happiness of captured *that* one spellcard or getting the 1cc, or beating Extra.

Although.... being limited to EoSD and PCB will suck if i intend to take part.

Sakurei

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2016, 09:34:29 AM »
It can be hard to find a match for the good players though. If we (just as an example) take the DRC system, we would note down our preferred categories, right? Say in my case, we have phantasm for score and IN extra for score. Is there really anyone active in this community who could give a good match in either of them? Of course, if it's normal mode 1cc-tier vs normal mode 1cc-tier it's okay but those who are specialized will have some issues so some uneven matches will always happen if you're dead bent on getting everyone in there.

Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2016, 09:22:19 AM »
It can be hard to find a match for the good players though. If we (just as an example) take the DRC system, we would note down our preferred categories, right? Say in my case, we have phantasm for score and IN extra for score. Is there really anyone active in this community who could give a good match in either of them? Of course, if it's normal mode 1cc-tier vs normal mode 1cc-tier it's okay but those who are specialized will have some issues so some uneven matches will always happen if you're dead bent on getting everyone in there.
The same problem would occur if everyone was ranked together, but to a significantly larger extent. Either there'd still be an obvious winner from the start without much of a contest, or no categories could be included that already have a clear winner, which would be kind of limiting (and would probably produce something like my old atypical challenges, which still weren't especially popular).

It might be possible to find a match for those players in something that's not their specialty, though.

I feel pairing people of similar skill is a great idea for a competition.

Glad DRC is a good inspiration!
Was DRC your idea?

I think pairing, or more generally grouping (not necessarily pairing if there happen to be three or more) would avoid what I suspect was the main reason MotK's past contests tended to have low participation.

Not sure how to use that concept while keeping it from being a DRC clone, which wouldn't serve much purpose either. That's why I'm looking for ideas.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 09:31:28 AM by Karisa »

Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2016, 02:43:02 PM »
Personally, what would interest me would be being paired up with someone who shares one of my current goals, i.e. we are both going for a clear in a category we haven't yet achieved. The scoring system could use 100 (or any arbitrary number) as a baseline, with scores approaching 100 based on how close we get to the clear, and scores above 100 for achieving it with resources to spare. I know this would have the same problem of it being hard to accommodate good players :( and I don't have an easy answer for that.

Zigzagwolf

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2016, 03:54:35 PM »
Brainstorming while writing this so how sensible this is really is another case. However what about a DRC-like but more collective-decission system?

What I mean is as following: We have teams and of those two players compete against each other however for sign ups we have three rounds: first people individually post the categories they want to do; in the second round people would proceed to make agreements together by posting and replying to each other rather than a small group of people matching people according to their competitive ability. In that, participants seek and set their categories transparently on the sign-up thread (round 2); then in round 3 groups can be formed (opposing players will not adhere to the same group.) I still believe the rubrics would need to be made by a small group or by permission be used from the DRC.

This would decrease the toll of unfair matchups as people themselves seek out to be another's opponent, this would mean individual thought up categories at times would need to be placed aside by personal decission to decide with the opponent on one.

A few thoughts that strengthen this idea: the lesser good players are likely to naturally seek out each other as an opponent as they are less confident in their ability to compete against another player; this may stabilise team match-ups this way while holding on more accurate; challenging matchups + not one person or group can make inaccurate match-ups for everyone else. I think it would be the most fair, open and accurate.



« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 04:06:48 PM by Zigzagwolf »
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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2016, 06:03:49 PM »
how about making DRC a motk+eientei collaboration , the format is good so why not have motk just be a part of it?

Aldnox

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2016, 02:44:59 AM »
how about making DRC a motk+eientei collaboration , the format is good so why not have motk just be a part of it?
I second this. Pretty good idea to expand DRC.

ZM

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2016, 10:56:16 PM »
Waiting for Karisa's input. I wouldn't be against an Eientei+MoTK merge for DRC.

Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2016, 07:45:44 AM »
I'm not sure I see the benefit-- can anyone elaborate?

nav'

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 08:52:13 AM »
2. There's a discord between communities and a clear divide between HME and Eientei (and lol kp). Sharing the event should help break down the divide so we can join hands and sing kumbaya like some sort of hippies.
This alone is a significant enough reason to give the idea a try.
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Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2016, 09:29:57 AM »
This alone is a significant enough reason to give the idea a try.
If it were actually true.

As far as I know (both from occasional browsing of Eientei, and discussions with currently active players), most of the active players now use both. Aside from that one group who mostly left/got themselves banned from MotK in 2013-2014, who it looks like are determined to keep a divide going that doesn't seem to exist among people who joined since then.

Mino ☆

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2016, 02:30:40 PM »
Hedgehogs will fly before any type of collaboration happens between MoTK and Eientei.

I'm not really sure how a collaboration would work anyway. What site would the contest actually be held on? Would there be a thread on both sites for it? Or would the players just flock to one thread on one of the sites. Are there any players on MoTK who aren't also in any other communities? As far as I'm aware, most active players are on non-MoTK communities.

I don't really think a collab would really do anything to boost popularity of either site. Well, it could add people to MoTK but I doubt it'd boost eientei very much.

--

The divide that does exist is based on different ideologies and tolerance levels of improper behaviors. I don't really think both sides could really make up and sing kumbaya in regards to that specific division.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 08:33:06 PM by Mino ☆ »

Tengukami

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2016, 02:50:10 PM »
Also, didn't we stop doing the whole "compare us to similar communities" thing after the whole fiasco over trash talking Lunatic Red?

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2016, 12:24:56 AM »
Active players who are here now are here mostly because they have been here for a long time at this point (Kirby, Zil or myself). New people who stay active players just don't join anymore. HME is not an active board and hasn't been for a long time.

I agree. Honestly, the main group is over on Discord, Eientei's gameplay discussion isn't all that active either.

An upside of this is that the people who aren't on HME might actually join. Would make the leaderboards here more complete. Heck, maybe it could even make HME more active - heaven knows this place is inactive, and so is Eientei outside of DRC... having a truly active board would be nice.
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Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2016, 08:47:09 AM »
Enough of the derail. This isn't the place to discuss which sites are or are not active. Though if you do happen to think HME is inactive, a contest provides a good reason to invite players here anyway.


Let's return to discussing possible MotK contests. It's clear that players competing against others of similar skill is highly supported, but details still need to be determined.

I'm thinking players would post potential game/difficulty/category sets they're interested in, along with their personal best or at least an estimate (e.g. SA Normal 700m, or MoF Hard 6MNB). Categories include scoring, and survival either unrestricted or no-bombs; not sure if anything else is reasonable. There could optionally be some simple special conditions, such as not using MarisaB in MoF or DDC, or NBN[something] in applicable games. Of course, adding conditions to your submission may decrease the chance of finding an appropriate match-up.

Allowing players to agree on a match-up they consider fair also seems reasonable, though they shouldn't be forced to. After, say, a few weeks of sign-ups, anyone remaining would be matched up if possible. For anyone left over, or if players don't agree the match-up they get is fair, there'd be a chance to propose alternate categories to still participate.

Still unsure whether or not there should be any kind of team system like DRC uses. I'm also wondering if there's any particular reason players should be paired up, or if there should also be the option of groups of 3 or more (which might be popular for categories like, say, Normal survival, or might turn out to be irrelevant). There's also the question of if players would only play one round each (a single category to submit their replay to), or potentially participate in multiple match-ups.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 08:59:06 AM by Karisa »

Zil

Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2016, 03:19:16 PM »
Can you explain why you're still opposed to the collaboration idea? Some very good points were made in support of it and it looks like everyone else in this thread is on board.

Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2016, 05:13:34 PM »
I would really like the idea of having Touhou contests involving lots of players from the MotK playerbase. At the moment, MotK is the only Touhou forum I regularly visit; I go on Discord daily now, but have not signed up to any other forums. For context, I did read a bit of the Dodging Rain Competition thread at Eientei, to see overall how it was run, and the competition format/elements. 

(I've said almost the exact same words on the #pc-99 channel as in this post, but meh, here goes:)
I wouldn't mind if the DRC ended up being a MotK + Eientei collaboration. I think the relevant scoring rubrics, submission deadlines, pairings, general info etc. could be easily posted on a dedicated thread here. Like others, I don't really see the harm in trying it out.

One of the features I really like about the DRC is the fact that it's a team-based competition where people contribute points towards their team's total. This helps players of all skill levels to feel like they are making a contribution, even if 1cc Easy is a challenge for them. I would recommend this team-based element be present if our goal is to encourage participation from the playerbase.

I suspect many here will disagree with my next points, but I actually don't see pairing people in categories as being all that useful towards the competition. Currently in the DRC, how well you do relative to your 'direct opponent' has no influence on how many points you contribute to your team. If I submit a 500M run, it gives the same points regardless of whether my opponent scores 250M or 1B. Therefore, even if I were placed in a severe mismatch, there would still be a strong incentive for me to strive for a better result. To me, a person on Team A who is WR-level at EoSD Lunatic is really competing more against a person on Team B who is WR-level at PCB Lunatic, rather than their 'direct opponent' who may be able to reliably 1cc EoSD Lunatic, but who isn't really close to the WR-score.

As a person who isn't close to the WR in any category, I guess I've never really felt that beating a score set by a fellow player is really that different to beating a score set by yourself. To me, a goal of 650M in SA Hard is the same goal, whether it is set by you or based off someone else's score. So that's why I don't really see the 'pairing' aspect as all that necessary. However, others have noted that playing against a person of similar skill to yourself can provide lots of motivation; to each their own!

Likewise, I don't necessarily see a need to restrict everybody to one category. I actually think things would be better if everybody was allowed to have one submission count towards their team's total, but was allowed to play whatever category they liked. This would reduce the issues for those who are extremely specialised (as stated before, really you are competing against people at your level in different games, and I think we have enough of those people). Furthermore, reading back through some of the DRC feedback, I think allowing people to play whatever category they like would reduce issues of not maximising the number of points you earn due to choosing the 'wrong' category. It would also allow people to be as ambitious as they like. Think you can get a 1cc Hard within the round's timeframe, despite not having done it before? Go for it! If you don't make it, you can still submit your Normal 1cc for some points. You don't even have to worry about whether you should go survival vs. score, or about which difficulty will let you optimise points - why not try them all, and see what actually works best for you according to the scoring rubric?

I guess what I am proposing is a competition where everybody goes about and does their own thing; all contributing to their team in the process. To me, that's more inclusive than requiring that people find a person who is willing to play the same category as them, and who is at a similar skill level. I guess that's what I would want to see in a Touhou contest - everybody trying to better themselves regardless of where they're at, and being able to play whatever they feel like playing, whilst making a difference.

One more idea I have is to run a competition over several weeks (say 4). If you want to make the competition dramatic, allow everybody to submit one run per week - but you must lodge your intention to participate in that week's submissions before the week starts, and only your most recent submitted run will count. So if you do worse in Week 3 compared to Week 2, then you will effectively have lost points that you were holding. It would be fun to watch people trying to 'be the hero' and score a Week 4 PB, as nothing else will get their team over the line - and to see if they can influence people on the opposing team to also risk their points. I actually think this is an artifical way to induce drama, but I figured I'd run the idea by you guys anyway.

Regardless of how this all turns out, I do hope we can get something going that involves more players from MotK!

Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2016, 07:24:34 PM »
While I agree with using a team system, I suspect using a point evaluation system that doesn't relate to an opponent actually prevents less skilled players from making as large a contribution, and restricts choice of categories more than playing against others does.

For example, if survival is scored the same across difficulties, obviously there'd be no incentive to play Lunatic survival since you could play Easy instead. Therefore Lunatic survival would need to be worth much more than Easy. Aside from balancing issues (what would an Easy perfect correspond to? A Hard 1cc?), that means the Easy survival players wouldn't be able to contribute much to their team, since their runs would be worth so little in comparison.

Meanwhile if players are ranked based on how well they do against their opponent(s), it wouldn't matter-- since the Lunatic survival player wouldn't be competing against the Easy player, their runs can both be given the same value.

Additionally, I don't think it's reasonable from an organization standpoint. It'd force every possible category to be evaluated from the start of the contest, instead of only the categories that people actually compete in. This is especially relevant for scoring, where you can't have a single formula that applies across all games. There are plenty of scoring categories where % of WR wouldn't be a good starting point-- for example, in LLS Extra and HRtP almost every scoring-oriented run is within 90% of WR, and in many Extra stages survival (spell bonuses and remaining life count) makes up a significant proportion of your score before you even include scoring techniques.

So either every possible category would need to be given its own balancing formula, which I don't think is practical, or only a limited selection of games or categories could be chosen, which seems to miss the point of allowing free selection.

Even if that could be balanced, it forces everyone to play their specialty if they have one, with no option of improving at something you're less experienced at or even trying something new (against someone else of similar general skill who's also trying it for the first time). In other words, it creates the "wrong" categories you seem to be trying to avoid. For example, if I were participating in this potential contest where you can choose any category but they're all ranked together, I'd have no reason to submit to anything other than DDC Easy (or SoEW which I don't enjoy), since I can score at/near WR level there, so it'd cost points to my team if I chose anything else. In contrast, in a match-up version, I'd specifically be unable to choose DDC Easy scoring since there'd be no one to play against, so I'd need to improve at a different category instead. (It'd be unlikely I'd participate if I'm busy organizing it, but this is for the sake of an example.) I don't think the specialized players need an incentive to play the categories they're already focused on.

As a person who isn't close to the WR in any category, I guess I've never really felt that beating a score set by a fellow player is really that different to beating a score set by yourself.
If you're only aiming for self-improvement, why participate in a contest? While I primarily aim for simply setting PBs, the few times I've had a chance to play against someone else have provided a nice incentive. Especially when multiple players are submitting back-and-forth replays over a period of time.

And evaluating submissions based on the player's improvement, while it seems nice, is an extremely abusable concept-- people could break the system by choosing a category they've never played before.

Thanks for the ideas though.


On a different note, I've been wondering about a system with more than two teams. But that might run into the same balancing issues, since each team wouldn't play the exact same set of categories. Depends on how many people sign up, I guess-- if the teams are large enough it might average out.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 09:14:40 PM by Karisa »

Zil

Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2016, 10:08:00 PM »
Hey, you've just deleted half the posts in a perfectly civil discussion. I strongly recommend you not escalate things so quickly since it certainly does not go unnoticed and it reflects very poorly on this site's moderation, the reputation of which is already on the rocks in many people's eyes. Please think this through. I don't want another disaster on this board. You asked for some further explanation of Cactu's initial suggestion and that's precisely what was posted here. Maybe you don't want to do it for some reason. That's fine. You can openly explain why and disagree with people. The posts should not be deleted for no reason. Let's try to reason with one another.

ZM

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2016, 10:26:45 PM »
Don't pay any mind to this.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 05:46:47 AM by ZM »

Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2016, 01:26:38 AM »
OK, I was trying to avoid any conflict, but clearly something's started anyway, so this misinterpretation needs to be addressed.

First of all, this is not how to carry on a civil discussion.
1. You don't have think up anything on your own :^) The format is already there and you just need to make the announcement. Organizing the event would probably happen through people who are registered on both sites though (ZM, Kirby, Zig, me, maybe the other guys would register here too idk). So you just need to sit back and enjoy watching the peasants being entertained.
2. There's a discord between communities and a clear divide between HME and Eientei (and lol kp). Sharing the event should help break down the divide so we can join hands and sing kumbaya like some sort of hippies.
Well, I don't know how to say this, but you're wrong.
But to be at least a little bit on topic: If you don't see the obvious benefits of a collaboration, then sure. But clearly there aren't any downsides to actually agreeing to do it.
What a pathetic accusation.
I know this can be hard but you shouldn't deny reality.

Sakurei's first post did indeed appear to be in response to that I asked for elaboration. It was a post full of snide remarks, unreasonable points, and obvious dislike for MotK (look at the quoted #1 for an example of all three), that was clearly not a serious proposal. And he continued with it after the first post was ignored. Sakurei's posts were completely unreasonable, and the presence of occasional valid points does not justify the attitude of insulting on every disagreement, and a clear belief that his statements are indisputable. And presumably discouraging anyone else from disagreeing because they would be similarly insulted.

I strongly recommend you not escalate things so quickly since it certainly does not go unnoticed and it reflects very poorly on this site's moderation, the reputation of which is already on the rocks in many people's eyes.
Sakurei had been escalating for several days before any action was taken. If you didn't see it, Sakurei made another post that existed for a few minutes before it and the entire collaboration derail were removed. And the haters won't like MotK regardless of what moderation is taken, so their opinions do not affect decisions.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 02:35:42 AM by Karisa »

Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2016, 01:49:44 AM »
I've restored the other posts in the derail, since the rest weren't offensive. My reasoning at the time was that the thread was sidetracked on a "collaboration" that, as far as I can tell, was not a collaboration at all, but simply one-way promotion toward Eientei by having DRC sign-ups here, without MotK taking any part in organization. I felt it'd been detracting from the purpose of this thread for a while, and needed to be removed to bring it back on topic. My mistake if the rest of the posts were about a collaboration in general, not the specific concept written out by Sakurei.

There was enough support for a contest organized by both sites that I brought it up privately with ZM to see if it was feasible, but it seems to be impractical.

Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2016, 03:59:17 AM »
My reasoning at the time was that the thread was sidetracked on a "collaboration" that, as far as I can tell, was not a collaboration at all, but simply one-way promotion toward Eientei by having DRC sign-ups here, without MotK taking any part in organization. I felt it'd been detracting from the purpose of this thread for a while, and needed to be removed to bring it back on topic. My mistake if the rest of the posts were about a collaboration in general, not the specific concept written out by Sakurei.

There was enough support for a contest organized by both sites that I brought it up privately with ZM to see if it was feasible, but it seems to be impractical.

I can see how one could interpret the collaboration suggestion that way, and Sakurei's comments didn't help in clearing up doubts, but one of the valid points he did bring up (and Nolegs as well) was that there are plenty of players outside either community. Also, I've seen ZM extend invitations for the DRC at least once on his Saturday stream with Martin, which is something any player from any community (or outside of one) can take part of.
My point is, the way I see it, the DRC right now isn't strictly an Eientei event, it's more like a general Touhou Players community event; or is at least one that could be, but just happens to have started on Eientei.

Even if you and ZM end(ed) up agreeing that a collaboration is for whatever reason not possible, I think the suggestion was worth discussing.

Things I've done (and maybe will improve):
SA L6MNB | SA Lunatic 3b Scorerun | MoF LNB | PCB LNB |DDC LNB

Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2016, 05:17:19 AM »
Part of the idea of having a contest here is indeed to provide a good reason to invite people to HME, more so than simply the fact it's a community to discuss Touhou playing (there seem to be plenty of those now). In other words, the number of players outside both sites is already in support of having a contest here.

Meanwhile, it's in opposition to having sign-ups for Eientei on MotK (which was never an option), since then said players would tend to simply register where the contest is hosted.

Zigzagwolf

  • Kuruminist Touhou Player
Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2016, 06:55:47 AM »
Part of the idea of having a contest here is indeed to provide a good reason to invite people to HME, more so than simply the fact it's a community to discuss Touhou playing (there seem to be plenty of those now). In other words, the number of players outside both sites is already in support of having a contest here.

Meanwhile, it's in opposition to having sign-ups for Eientei on MotK (which was never an option), since then said players would tend to simply register where the contest is hosted.

You could however make sign-ups for the event using another website, say for example: google documents? You could make an intro post on both communities but shift the sign-ups and results to one external page. I think that could help in not having people to spread around on multiple communities.

You could make sure the submissions happen to the external page too.
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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2016, 10:05:33 AM »
For example, if survival is scored the same across difficulties, obviously there'd be no incentive to play Lunatic survival since you could play Easy instead. Therefore Lunatic survival would need to be worth much more than Easy. Aside from balancing issues (what would an Easy perfect correspond to? A Hard 1cc?), that means the Easy survival players wouldn't be able to contribute much to their team, since their runs would be worth so little in comparison.
I agree that balancing is a significant issue to be addressed in a DRC-like system. No system that attempts to standardise between difficulties and games is ever going to be perceived as completely fair by everyone, simply because of all of our different experiences with the games and our perceived estimations of skill for all the different categories. I think that balance is something that will naturally improve over iterations of the contest - to me, it's not really that different to releasing a game with multiple playable characters, and then revising elements of gameplay in response to initial feedback.
Meanwhile if players are ranked based on how well they do against their opponent(s), it wouldn't matter-- since the Lunatic survival player wouldn't be competing against the Easy player, their runs can both be given the same value.
However, if you wish to weight each individual match equally, perhaps one method could be to use the ratio of the two players' scores? This would still provide some (though I'd argue less) incentive to improve one's score even if one is in a mismatch, which for me is a large element in having an enjoyable competition. Suppose Sakurei and I were the only two people who put down IN Extra as an option; is there even a reason for me to participate if I'm only able to get 50% of what he scores? But perhaps if I could score more competition points by improving from 50% to 60%, that would be better. I can't speak for everyone, but I also wouldn't like to be in a position where I could just do one run, and know the probability of my opponent coming close to my score is very low. The point is that I don't really want to wait for my opponent to post a score to provide me with an incentive to play; I'd rather have a system where there is always an incentive for doing better, because that will lead to more frequent and active play in my opinion.
Additionally, I don't think it's reasonable from an organization standpoint. It'd force every possible category to be evaluated from the start of the contest, instead of only the categories that people actually compete in. This is especially relevant for scoring, where you can't have a single formula that applies across all games. There are plenty of scoring categories where % of WR wouldn't be a good starting point-- for example, in LLS Extra and HRtP almost every scoring-oriented run is within 90% of WR, and in many Extra stages survival (spell bonuses and remaining life count) makes up a significant proportion of your score before you even include scoring techniques.
So either every possible category would need to be given its own balancing formula, which I don't think is practical, or only a limited selection of games or categories could be chosen, which seems to miss the point of allowing free selection.
Fair enough, I may have underestimated the difficulty involved in providing a reasonably balanced scoring mechanism. I suspect my proposal to use the ratio of opponents' scores may also be affected by this point: there is an incentive to submit categories in which score differentials tend to be greater, rather than ones which tend to be close. However, I think this incentive will be present in any system, as I state below.
Even if that could be balanced, it forces everyone to play their specialty if they have one, with no option of improving at something you're less experienced at or even trying something new (against someone else of similar general skill who's also trying it for the first time). In other words, it creates the "wrong" categories you seem to be trying to avoid. For example, if I were participating in this potential contest where you can choose any category but they're all ranked together, I'd have no reason to submit to anything other than DDC Easy (or SoEW which I don't enjoy), since I can score at/near WR level there, so it'd cost points to my team if I chose anything else. In contrast, in a match-up version, I'd specifically be unable to choose DDC Easy scoring since there'd be no one to play against, so I'd need to improve at a different category instead. (It'd be unlikely I'd participate if I'm busy organizing it, but this is for the sake of an example.) I don't think the specialized players need an incentive to play the categories they're already focused on.
I wish to respectfully disagree here. Suppose there actually was another player who submitted DDC Easy scoring as a category. Would you not then be costing points (or risking costing points) to your team by not picking DDC Easy scoring, seeing as your probability of winning in that category is much higher, as opposed to all other categories? You could argue that the other player may have been unwise to choose DDC Easy scoring, but what if they had submitted their category before you? I don't think a situation where people are trying to 'duck opponents' and pick the best match-up for themselves is really what a competition is about. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is an obvious incentive for those who are specialised to play in their specialised category, regardless of what system is used. Branching out and trying something new is always nice, but if you're interested in maximising competition winning chances, would you do it if you didn't have to?
If you're only aiming for self-improvement, why participate in a contest? While I primarily aim for simply setting PBs, the few times I've had a chance to play against someone else have provided a nice incentive. Especially when multiple players are submitting back-and-forth replays over a period of time.
I participate in a contest because I think I will have fun, because I get to meet more people with similar interests to me, and because I do have a small amount of competitiveness. However, the three reasons i have given are in personal order of precedence. In other words, I don't see this competition as a particularly 'serious' endeavour. I think this is where we may fundamentally differ in our perspectives - I view this competition as a way to encourage people to play and discuss Touhou more, and the actual 'competitive' aspect is more of a means to that end. If I get thrashed, but have a smile on my face throughout, then that means the competition was a positive for me.
And evaluating submissions based on the player's improvement, while it seems nice, is an extremely abusable concept-- people could break the system by choosing a category they've never played before.
I think you may have misinterpreted my words here; I wasn't suggesting that players' improvement be factored into the scoring formula - much the opposite actually. I was more saying was that using score as part of the competition creates incentive to improve regardless of how high or low one's score is. To me, whilst one tests one's skills against others in a competition, the real value of serious competition lies in what you can then use in self-improvement. But I've already said that I don't view this as a particularly serious competition, so I don't think my philosophy even applies strongly in any case.

Thanks for your reply, by the way!

Karisa

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Re: Looking for input on potential Touhou contests
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2016, 01:18:35 AM »
Regarding your example:
I wish to respectfully disagree here. Suppose there actually was another player who submitted DDC Easy scoring as a category. Would you not then be costing points (or risking costing points) to your team by not picking DDC Easy scoring, seeing as your probability of winning in that category is much higher, as opposed to all other categories? You could argue that the other player may have been unwise to choose DDC Easy scoring, but what if they had submitted their category before you? I don't think a situation where people are trying to 'duck opponents' and pick the best match-up for themselves is really what a competition is about. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is an obvious incentive for those who are specialised to play in their specialised category, regardless of what system is used. Branching out and trying something new is always nice, but if you're interested in maximising competition winning chances, would you do it if you didn't have to?
I think you might be misinterpreting what matching people up would mean? Since you'd need to mention your best attempt in your submission (not necessarily a replay, but at least an estimate), if you only sign up for categories no one's close in, then that's not maximizing your winning chances, that's maximizing your non-participation chances. Players would never be involuntarily matched up with someone who scores twice as high, though if for some reason you feel like doing that anyway, both players could specifically submit that they'd prefer to play each other.

(I don't see why not to allow predetermined pairings, regardless of balance, as long as both players agree to it. Players could sign up with the specific intent to play each other, or agree before the sign-ups are evaluated when they see someone else has signed up in the same category.)

If the other player signs up for DDC Easy but has a best score of, I don't know, ReimuA 600m, then they'd never play against me (unless they request to). If it turns out someone else is close to me, then it'd work out, but I don't think anyone else in the English-speaking community is close right now?

I suppose after the initial pairings, the remaining players would have a period of time either to find someone they agree to play against, or withdraw. Agreements could take various forms-- aside from one player choosing a category another remaining player signed up for, there might be the option of categories neither player has seriously attempted so they both start on equal footing, for instance. Or in the case of a noticeable mismatch in skill by players interested in the same game, deliberately imbalance the categories (for example, Normal against Hard for survival, or prevent the better scoring player from using the highest-scoring shot type).

I'd rather prioritize encouraging participation specifically with other players, over encouraging players to continue playing their specialty when they'd probably play it anyway. I'd say it encourages more discussion, since you know there will be one other person with a similar goal.

Edit: I don't know, maybe I'm biased since I'd be content playing a variety of categories, and other players might not necessarily. Anyone else have any thoughts?

As for weighting the result: That's a good point, that a purely relative system wouldn't have meaning until both players submit. Also, while I would like to rank based on the difference between players' scores in some way (or difference in resources spent, for survival), it's possible unexpected circumstances prevent someone from submitting at all. So the ranking system might need to be predetermined for each match-up after all.

Perhaps it'd be scaled so that everyone would be expected to end up in the range of, say, 100 +/- 50 points for the team, averaged around their existing skill level. (Or maybe with higher numbers, so even minor improvements have a benefit. 1 million +/- 500,000?) I think that might give incentive to improve regardless of how you pair up, but also allow everyone to make a reasonably similar contribution to the team, and not be as impractical as scaling every single category in advance.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 03:39:57 AM by Karisa »