Author Topic: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors  (Read 12817 times)

Prime32

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2016, 03:13:35 PM »
Not too familiar with MtG but...

I think Junko would be Red/Blue with an effect that makes her Colourless (either at all times, or only when in play).

Moon rabbits would be Black or occasionally Red, but with weird mechanics (such as changing their colour, or requiring White mana). Though for the sake of game mechanics, if Lunarians are White then it would make sense for them to have White as a secondary colour, or just be Whites that use Black mana.
Reisen would be a Black/Blue shifting towards mono-Blue.

Aya is probably White/Green. Momiji is either White/Green or mono-Green, and Hatate is Red/Green.

For the Moriya Shrine, I'd say... Kanako is White/Blue, Suwako is Black/Green, and Sanae is White/Red? With Kanako having mostly generic mana costs to represent getting faith from many sources, and Suwako having some way to leech off that. Alternately, when Kanako is in play she lets Suwako treat all mana as being the type she needs and vice versa.

Kokoro is White/Blue/Black/Red/Green, but leaning mostly towards Blue. Contrasting with Koishi, who is Colourless.

commandercool

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2016, 04:04:14 PM »
Subterranean Animism is like mostly red. Yuugi's red, Utsuho is red, Koishi is red, Parsee and Orin are probably black/red. Yamame is green or maybe black/green (you can bet she's a 2/4...), Satori is probably blue/green, and Sanae is white.
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Sophilia

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2016, 07:42:11 PM »
That version of Junko, honestly, seems more like what I think about Koishi.  My idea of Junko is pretty much straight red, since she's turned herself into pure rage with her ability.  On the other hand, I think Koishi should be a red creature, with an ability that uses blue, and Devoid to make it colorless.

I don't think a rainbow Kokoro is right at all.  If anything, she should be the native colorless since she's literally an artifact creature.  But she could have a mechanic that set her into different states of color/power/toughness/ability to represent her different masks.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2016, 08:15:25 PM »
That version of Junko, honestly, seems more like what I think about Koishi.  My idea of Junko is pretty much straight red, since she's turned herself into pure rage with her ability.  On the other hand, I think Koishi should be a red creature, with an ability that uses blue, and Devoid to make it colorless.

She's not really "rage" though, which should be obvious from her personality. She's a pure desire for vengeance, but that simply means she's been purified of the volatile emotions that would normally go along with that. She's the opposite of impulsive: she's willing to wait as long as it takes to carry out a complex plan, and when she encounters a critical set-back is able to shrug it off and tell herself "maybe next time." All with a smirk on her face.

I don't know enough about the colors to say what she'd actually be, but I know she's not Red.

Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2016, 09:56:39 PM »
She's not really "rage" though, which should be obvious from her personality. She's a pure desire for vengeance, but that simply means she's been purified of the volatile emotions that would normally go along with that. She's the opposite of impulsive: she's willing to wait as long as it takes to carry out a complex plan, and when she encounters a critical set-back is able to shrug it off and tell herself "maybe next time." All with a smirk on her face.

I don't know enough about the colors to say what she'd actually be, but I know she's not Red.
The description of Junko you give seems pretty aligned with Black.

Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2016, 08:49:47 AM »
That version of Junko, honestly, seems more like what I think about Koishi.  My idea of Junko is pretty much straight red, since she's turned herself into pure rage with her ability.  On the other hand, I think Koishi should be a red creature, with an ability that uses blue, and Devoid to make it colorless.



Koishi right now isn't turn to colorless, but more like she's colorless in the first place, with having the ability to turn red.

Sophilia

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2016, 01:26:36 PM »
Well the Devoid ability, as far as I understand it, takes cards that you use colored mana on, and says specifically, "this card is colorless".  It's actually more powerful than just making her colorless, because with Devoid you can't set her to a color at all with other spells.  I think it works great for Koishi, since she is incredibly chaotic and impulse driven, but has none of the emotion or thought that usually accompanies it.  The blue is just mechanical, really, for her cloaking and mind effects.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

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Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2016, 02:42:27 AM »
Hmm... missed a few things over the last day or two. Some cool ideas, lemme try at em. :)

Like Kaguya being white and Eirin being white/blue.

I think moon rabbits are best white and some blue. The purity part is the main driver, and the whole worry about impurity could be interpreted by white's nastier side of "Us, not them". Kind funny talking about this since WotC kinda touched upon this race with their moon folk, but they were blue in the sets they showed up in. Probably because of storyline differences.

I'll have to touch upon other characters later, but thinking about Koishi amused me alot when I came to my conclusion: Red/Blue. She kinda does what both aspire to do, living without the rules of law and also being about to affect her world greatly with her power. The funny thing is she manages to do this without fighting against power nor doing it directly unlike how Red would do it, and without any kind of conscious thought or through great learning like what Blue would do, just simply through her subconscious whims. It's really hilarious and I could see her triggering someone like Jace or Chandra quite easily. It's kinda funny to see a Red/Blue combo that isn't like Marisa, that learn through chaotic kind of learning, but instead greatly affecting the world around her passively just through gut instinct.
 

Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2016, 03:56:14 AM »
Hmm... missed a few things over the last day or two. Some cool ideas, lemme try at em. :)

Like Kaguya being white and Eirin being white/blue.

I think moon rabbits are best white and some blue. The purity part is the main driver, and the whole worry about impurity could be interpreted by white's nastier side of "Us, not them". Kind funny talking about this since WotC kinda touched upon this race with their moon folk, but they were blue in the sets they showed up in. Probably because of storyline differences.
I think the biggest precedent for the Lunarians being white-aligned is Elesh Norn's faction since they were pretty obsessed with purity/impurity in that weird Phyrexian way.

I'm not sure how  you'd classify Reisen, though.

commandercool

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2016, 04:40:17 AM »
I'm inclined to want to call Reisen black or maybe black/blue just because of her power. She's probably a Hypnotic Specter, right?
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Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2016, 11:34:54 AM »
Reisen in my eyes is just outright Blue. She uses illusion bullets, can manipulate waves to alter the perceptions of people or even their attitudes. She even tries to change her personality based on the situation she's in. That's all pretty well situated in Blue without need for mixing colors.

I forgot to mention, I can see Koishi having Shroud and having an ability that'd be like 2(Blue): "Target permanent gains Shroud until end of turn."

VIVIT

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2016, 05:06:04 PM »
I can see Marisa being blue because she's a whizzard, but she definitely has some red in there too, especially when contrasted with Alice.

There's irony in the rivalry between Alice and Marisa: Alice likes making cunning, clever plans and executing them efficiently with her magic, whereas Marisa likes to overwhelm her enemies with power -- but to Marisa, the intensive study involved in learning such powerful magic is clever enough already. Essentially, Marisa achieves and exhibits power (red) via knowledge (blue).

Marisa's kleptomania also makes her more red, too.

commandercool

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2016, 05:22:27 PM »
I think the fundamental conflict between Reimu and Marisa (Reimu's talent versus Marisa's hard work) could not be more emblematic of the blue/green nature versus nurture conflict. They pretty much have to be partly green and blue respectively because they fit the archetypes so cleanly.
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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2016, 02:39:25 PM »
If the Dragon God ever appear in person, what would she (standard Touhou assumption) be? Technically, she would be pink first, since she's the creator and all, but what do you think about the next color?

commandercool

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2016, 02:44:50 PM »
Technically, she would be pink first, since she's the creator and all,

Wait what?
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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2016, 03:39:16 PM »
According to the Touhou canon. The Dragon God is the one who create the five phase (Metal, Wood, Water, Fire, Earth), before being the one that destroy and create Gensokyo in it entirety. That's why I think she is pink.

Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2016, 03:43:27 PM »
Wait what?
I think andy's thinking Red/White... unless he's mentioned the Pink in unhinged. I think that's a tricky one because we don't really have much on Dragons in general, personally I'd expect something like Blue/White/Green.

Going to jump around alittle doing whole casts, since I touched on Koishi, might start there

Kisume Green? (this one's really a wild card to me)
Yamame's Black, pretty much she deals in diseases and that's one of Black's bread and butter tactics.
Parsee Feels like a Black character more due to her jealousy and she sometimes masks it. Otherwise I'd tag her as Red.
Yuugi Green Her natural strength plus her love for stronger people to fight with and not liking weaklings is pretty much what a green person would be like.
Satori Blue/Black Her mindreading abilities is pretty much a Blue characteristic, meanwhile I think her fighting style is pretty much seen in a few magic sorcery cards, using a person's traumas against them. Kinda temped to add Red due to her trying to keep to herself, but her preferring to stick with pets because her mindreading isn't a problem for them and the fact that a blue/black person might stay to themselves might make this unnessacry.
Orin Black/Red Her cheerful informal nature is pretty much like a Red person's, while her ability involving reanimating corpses would be pretty much Black. Kinda like how Koishi's brand of Red/Blue ins't very much like the norm, I like how Orin's not much like the Rakdos mentality of Red/Black where it's destruction at your own whim for the fun of it.
Okuu Red Her ability to spawn suns is pretty Red and she's pretty spontaneous and random, which can be Red-ish. I sorta want to splash Black for her wanting world domination, but I think that might be a stretch because it seems like she did it under an idea that's what she should do with her power rather than having a desire for a position of power.
Koishi Red/Blue, already covered this one. :)

Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2016, 03:56:41 PM »
^Yeah, that Pink that's could turn into other color. That's what i mean

Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2016, 04:45:17 PM »
I think andy's thinking Red/White... unless he's mentioned the Pink in unhinged. I think that's a tricky one because we don't really have much on Dragons in general, personally I'd expect something like Blue/White/Green.

Going to jump around alittle doing whole casts, since I touched on Koishi, might start there

Kisume Green? (this one's really a wild card to me)
Yamame's Black, pretty much she deals in diseases and that's one of Black's bread and butter tactics.
Parsee Feels like a Black character more due to her jealousy and she sometimes masks it. Otherwise I'd tag her as Red.
Yuugi Green Her natural strength plus her love for stronger people to fight with and not liking weaklings is pretty much what a green person would be like.
Satori Blue/Black Her mindreading abilities is pretty much a Blue characteristic, meanwhile I think her fighting style is pretty much seen in a few magic sorcery cards, using a person's traumas against them. Kinda temped to add Red due to her trying to keep to herself, but her preferring to stick with pets because her mindreading isn't a problem for them and the fact that a blue/black person might stay to themselves might make this unnessacry.
Orin Black/Red Her cheerful informal nature is pretty much like a Red person's, while her ability involving reanimating corpses would be pretty much Black. Kinda like how Koishi's brand of Red/Blue ins't very much like the norm, I like how Orin's not much like the Rakdos mentality of Red/Black where it's destruction at your own whim for the fun of it.
Okuu Red Her ability to spawn suns is pretty Red and she's pretty spontaneous and random, which can be Red-ish. I sorta want to splash Black for her wanting world domination, but I think that might be a stretch because it seems like she did it under an idea that's what she should do with her power rather than having a desire for a position of power.
Koishi Red/Blue, already covered this one. :)
Kisume I want to imagine as green since coming out of nowhere and bonking you seems like the embodiment of flash.

I can see Yamame in Green/Black since disease kind of overlaps across both of those (see: Infect mechanic and Pharika in Theros) plus spiders are pretty green/black affiliated.

Yuugi's probably red-green? The desire to fight seems pretty red-aligned in my mind.

Satori... this is a tricky one. Telepathy and copying other people's distinctly blue, but her bonding with pets in the underground seems pretty connected to white or green?

I can agree with the assessments of Orin and Utsuho, and while Red/Blue for Koishi works I can also see a case for her in Red/Black.

Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2016, 06:07:58 PM »
Kisume I want to imagine as green since coming out of nowhere and bonking you seems like the embodiment of flash.
[\quote]
I guess that could also be red with something like Haste. It's just kinda odd since we don't have much to work with that I can see.

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I can see Yamame in Green/Black since disease kind of overlaps across both of those (see: Infect mechanic and Pharika in Theros) plus spiders are pretty green/black affiliated.
[\quote]
I was thinking Golgari when I read that myself. Infect seemed like that was more Phyrexia rather than color specific. Only reason why I didn't quite think Green works that well with Kisume is pretty much simply disease and doesn't involve any kind of growth that the Green would provide.

Quote
Yuugi's probably red-green? The desire to fight seems pretty red-aligned in my mind.
Perhaps, but I'm familiar with quite a few mono-Green cards that force a creature to fight another, that helps what fueled my idea. I think red might work if she was very fighty, kinda like starting fights all all over the place. She seems to just focus on strength kinda like Green's preference for survival of the fittest, rather than adding red which I could see someone who just wanted to brawl anyone at a whim.

Quote
Satori... this is a tricky one. Telepathy and copying other people's distinctly blue, but her bonding with pets in the underground seems pretty connected to white or green?
I can see that being Green myself. Only reason why I went the route I did was I think her telepathy is the reason for her sticking with animals and not about having some sort of connection with nature as much as much as its using her Blue characteristics to speak with those who don't fear her. Plus, I'm not sure that Green would prefer keeping animals as pets as much as allowing them to live free. Satori can be a tricky one though, but not as bad as Kisume was. ^^:

After looking at green more closely, kinda want to say I like Kaguya having Green with her White due to her not trying to influence things too much, and simply allowing Eirin to make decisions. Have to admit, I didn't have as much of an understanding of Green as I do now. Green barely edges out Black in the least often used color when it comes to me, although I can see appeal in Green's play style.

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I can agree with the assessments of Orin and Utsuho, and while Red/Blue for Koishi works I can also see a case for her in Red/Black.
I've seen a few posts about her using Black, and I'm curious how the Black could manifest in her abilities or character.


Requesting a moderator fix on this post, I have no idea why the tags aren't working right.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 02:22:52 AM by Firestorm29 »

VIVIT

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2016, 02:06:34 AM »
This is turning out to be a much more interesting discussion than would result from a prompt about D&D alignments.

Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2016, 04:16:52 PM »
Now let switch to Buddhism side:

Hijiri is easy:  Black/White. She's a monk, and have an idea to unified Youkai and Human to an understanding. Buuuut she's also use magic for her own gain, and being involved with the Youkai also mean she knew very well the dark side of the world. The Black isn't a dominant color though, ans instead is kinda like a shadow of a halo.

Nue is Black, obviously in ability and personality. Red if you think about typical youkai hijink. Being in their side probably made her, like other, to have a clear and pure color though, signifying their progress of enlightement (kinda ironic for being unknown as a base). Also probably going to be dyed white by Hijiri too.

Narzin is Blue, for being the "Tiny, Tiny clever commander".  A bit of a sub-serviant White for Shou, but we all know who's in charge here, so I would said that color is a bit fake.

Shou would be... I don't know.  I'll let you guy decided it.

commandercool

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2016, 05:12:01 PM »
Yeah, Shou is not easy to pin down. In part because, as far as I know, her characterization isn't that well-explained. She has lightning powers, doesn't she? That's a bit red mechanically, her divinity/status as an object of worship is white, and her ability to attract wealth miiight be blue.
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Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2016, 02:35:23 AM »
This is turning out to be a much more interesting discussion than would result from a prompt about D&D alignments.
I think that's because each color has philosophies that overlap rather than how much you follow the rules and how much of a jerk you are.

I think Hijiri being White/Black makes some sense, with her being a Youkai and a Monk, and kindness towards the "enemy" persay. Kinda want to say mono-White simply because she's simply extending her reach and beliefs towards others, but the idea that she's reaching out towards those who are the enemy kinda looks like a white knight trying to support Dominaria and Phyrexia at the same time... kinda on the fence with this.

I think Shou might be best White/Blue. Kinda want to add blue since she's really spawned from imaginations of tigers,  and White due to her typical personality and her being an avatar of Bishamonten. I guess maybe splash red based on situations due to her tendency to fly into a rage every once in a while and also go drinking sometimes despite her not supposed to be.

Hideki

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2016, 09:40:05 AM »
Shou I think is solidly White/Red.  Bishamonten is the god of war and warriors, as well as one who fights evil.  The god of War fits red, and the punisher of evil fits white. 

Any of the lunarians should be primary white.  Obsession with purity and dogmatic adherence to such structure is one of the primary negatives of white.  In fact, I'd argue that, absent of any personality quirks, Lunarians should be Mono-white (a la Toyohime and Yorihime).  The exception to the rule I think is Kaguya.  Kaguya I think is solidly black in flavor.  She gave up the purity of the moon for eternal life, and her primary motivation for doing things is for entertainment.  She obviously cares about things, but really couldn't give a rats ass about those she doesn't care about, like her suitors in the past. 

Eirin is another exception though less so.  She cares enough about the moon and it's existence to be mostly white, but she's too much of a scientist to let dogmatic notions of purity to become an obstacle to her research.  I'd put her secondary color at blue, mostly because she seems to research for its own sake rather than for any notion of increasing her own power.


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Mеа

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2016, 01:29:14 AM »
Maybe it's because Alice is (my favorite character and) the one character I've probably spent the most time thinking about, consciously or not, she seems particularly nuanced even among the touhou characters to me.

You brushed on it, but to put it tersely, I'd say the one driving factor that underpins Alice's whole character is obsession. On one side, a sort of creative obsession towards her craft, like you said. Gathering knowledge isn't so much the end goal so much as it is simply a means to further sharpen her own skills towards her art - making dolls. All this is fairly easily visible but the other half of her that gives her character a lot of conflict and depth is something that often comes hand-in-hand with obsession - perfection and perfectionism. I don't think you can really be an obsessed creative type without always striving higher, for more mastery, for more knowledge, for greater perfection. And with this perfection comes a sort of inevitable disappointment that takes its form as the melancholic side of her character. In what I think might even be a subconscious decision for her, she imposes self-restrictions on herself. In a strange way, it ends up being that she plays by her own rules and never crosses any lines she draws for herself. This can be seen in how the canon material says she never displays her true strength and what not, something we all know and heard a million times. It seems to me to be a kind of subconscious protection-ish mechanism to suppress potential disappointments. The self-imposed restrictions can be used as excuses to herself to avoid disappointments. I think she's weirdly very emotional this way, very melancholic, in a way that is very contrary to what I'm seeing blue as defining that makes me struggle to keep her categorized here, even if it is the most appropriate surface-wise.

As for the cruelty streak you mentioned, I think it's more of a display of her assertion as a creator. It strikes me as a sort of particularity, an obsession if you will, that she shows that only she has the sole right to destroy her own works -- and not anyone else -- as their creator. Seen this way, it can almost be a sort of show of affection, a weird display or form of love, for her creations to be the one to destroy them, by her own hands, just as she was the one who created them. It was a possibility that struck me after this one time when I woke up in the middle of the night, left the dorm, and built a giant snow moai statue out in the middle of the school campus after a very rare snowy day. Then the next night I woke up again midnight to go knock it down before someone else or the warming weather did. It might almost be contrary with her popular depiction as motherly (a mother-alice), and though I certainly do see shades of that in her character, I think she at times more strongly shows a creatorly romantic notion (a creator-alice). And it's these weird sort of romantic sentimentalities that she shows that make me hesitant to keep her true blue, but at the same time I don't know what color this would be. Neither red nor black nor white seem to show this weird perfectionist romantic sentimentality as far as I'm reading up.

Well at least, that's how I understand and relate to alice's character, and a couple of the reasons why she's my favorite. (which is to say, I'm not asserting that this is how she is, obviously)

e: I forgot, but her destroying her own dolls that she must have put lots of effort into can perhaps be another display of her own inner conflict, a venting of the stress, creative or otherwise, that comes from her passionate obsession and perfectionism. Again, conflicted melancholy, but it doesn't really seem that black.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:32:28 AM by Mеа »
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commandercool

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2016, 02:41:41 AM »
Pursuit of perfection is about as blue as blue can be. I don't think there's any question that she's blue. But even with your description there I can't shake the idea that there's some black in her.

In a mechanical sense, one of Alice's biggest tricks is definitely blowing up her dolls. Dolls are artifacts, and blue's domain over artifacts probably extends to doing things that it shouldn't normally be doing, like sacrificing. So by that logic she may be mono-blue.

However, I'm STRONGLY reminded of this card which I had previously forgotten about by your description, and it is indeed black (and blue, but mainly black). I think melancholy definitely has a place in black. Had I remembered that card earlier I would have brought it up before because I think it's all kinds of related.
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Sophilia

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2016, 03:41:22 AM »
The way you describe Alice makes her sound a lot like Urza, actually.  Incredily talented artificer and spellcrafter, seemingly detached and clinical, but if you merely scratch the surface, there's an all consuming monomania that drives, through every emotion.  For him, it was Phyrexia, for her, it would be the creation of true AI.  And yeah, he was straight blue.

Sacrificing artifacts is something in multiple colors, but sacrificing them for damage, well, that's a red spell.  Several red spells, in fact.

Also I keep reiterating it, but the one time Alice did go all out, Yuuka happened.  That, in itself, would be a heck of a discouragement from doing it again.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

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VIVIT

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Re: Touhou and Magic: The Gathering's five colors
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2016, 06:42:02 PM »
I think that's because each color has philosophies that overlap rather than how much you follow the rules and how much of a jerk you are.
The thing I like about the MTG color wheel is how each color shares very clear similarities with the two adjacent to it and very clear differences with the two opposite it.

Red rests between the feral untamability of Green and the ruthless cruelty of Black, while standing opposite to the strict order of white and the cunning subtlety of Blue.
Green rests between the wild ferocity of Red and the charitable community of White, while standing opposite to the highly literate esotericism of Blue and the sickly self-destructiveness of Black.
White rests between the life-nurturing properties of Green and the detached deliberation of Blue, while standing opposite to the foul degeneracy and prideful individualism of Black and the unruly chaos of Red.
Blue rests between the calm sophistication of White and the ethically dubious methods of Black, while standing opposite the of uncontrolled passion of Red and the base instinct of Green.
Black rests between the cold manipulation of Blue and the defiant freedom of Red, while standing opposite to the strict rules and spiritual cleanliness of White and the pristine healthiness of Green.

Of course, that's all an oversimplification, but some interesting patterns are already starting to show up.