Author Topic: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]  (Read 30473 times)

Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2016, 09:18:39 AM »
My point still stands.
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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2016, 10:26:39 AM »
I don't really agree with the Yukari and Zun Are Friends theory, because ZUN called Yukari "Nasty" in a recent interview.

Although I also have my doubts about the friends theory, you can say bad things about friends in a loving way. It's practically the way you can tell that they're truly a friend.

I mean, I'm fairly sure I describe her negativley despite the fact she's my 2nd favourite character and I pretty much worship her as a god. I mean, she is a very youkai like youkai - we still love her for it though.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 10:31:25 AM by aListers »
???-2004?=dark ages, 2005?=atomic betty era, 2006=red dwarf era, 2007-2009=newgrounds era, 2009-2014= anime era.

Been good talking to you all. Gensokyo gu braith!

Toushiro Scarlet

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2016, 11:51:28 AM »
how would you be able to tell that you can remember astral projection dreams if you just forget all of the other ones

In an astral projection dream, you can clearly remember it because your soul literally experienced the dream. Sometimes it feels really real, even realer than the so-called "reality". But for the normal dream, your soul stays in your body since those dreams are probably just some silly pranks your brain is pulling. That's why you normally quickly forget about it since it is stored in the physical brain.

Although I also have my doubts about the friends theory, you can say bad things about friends in a loving way. It's practically the way you can tell that they're truly a friend.
Exactly. This is what best friends do, right?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 11:54:10 AM by Toushiro Scarlet »
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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2016, 01:05:53 PM »
i don't think you got the joke but ok

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2016, 04:40:06 PM »
The fact that this thread is still being bumped is certainly Yukari's work.

Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2016, 05:12:46 PM »
Unless it's Parsee wondering when people are going to start talking about her. Whoops, I just jinxed it.

Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2016, 09:17:01 AM »
In an astral projection dream, you can clearly remember it because your soul literally experienced the dream. Sometimes it feels really real, even realer than the so-called "reality". But for the normal dream, your soul stays in your body since those dreams are probably just some silly pranks your brain is pulling. That's why you normally quickly forget about it since it is stored in the physical brain.
Exactly. This is what best friends do, right?
To me ZUN calling Yukari nasty may sound like him knowing that she was seeing him playfully teasing her.
Also the thing about astral projection feeling realer than real, can you explain it better (even touhght it sound like something you have to "see" yourself to understand) ? 

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2016, 10:02:16 AM »
Also the thing about astral projection feeling realer than real, can you explain it better (even touhght it sound like something you have to "see" yourself to understand) ?

Like, it's a feeling that is extremely hard to express in words. It's just.. feels REALLY real. Like, the sensation, the feeling. You can actually feel your soul tingle as you left your body. For example, I once had a failed astral projection attempt, where my soul just banging inside my body trying to get out. That doesn't feel like a dream at all, like you are actually conscious when you are doing it, except it doesn't hurt, just something like a forcefield stopping your soul from getting out. Also, you and can clearly recollect the whole event in the astral projection, like when somebody speaks to you, even after several months, while mostly everything else is getting "muffled up" in your memory
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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2016, 05:22:43 PM »
Like, it's a feeling that is extremely hard to express in words. It's just.. feels REALLY real. Like, the sensation, the feeling. You can actually feel your soul tingle as you left your body. For example, I once had a failed astral projection attempt, where my soul just banging inside my body trying to get out. That doesn't feel like a dream at all, like you are actually conscious when you are doing it, except it doesn't hurt, just something like a forcefield stopping your soul from getting out. Also, you and can clearly recollect the whole event in the astral projection, like when somebody speaks to you, even after several months, while mostly everything else is getting "muffled up" in your memory
So is like one of those Qualia things, you feel it but you can't explain it well in words.

Being rational that sound like some kind of dissociative disorder (hope I used the right terminology here), still be it a dissociative disorder or an astral projection something that feels realer than real is still very interesting in my opinion

Toushiro Scarlet

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2016, 02:53:24 AM »
Being rational that sound like some kind of dissociative disorder (hope I used the right terminology here), still be it a dissociative disorder or an astral projection something that feels realer than real is still very interesting in my opinion

Yeah. Never underestimate the universe
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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2016, 03:12:07 PM »
Considering that your experiences with astral projection seem to be somewhat similar to dreams (if I'm interpreting that correctly) would you be willing to post your experiences in the dream thread at some point? I mean, it seems that you essentially go to sleep but instead of going through a normal dream state you do something else which allows the spirit to leave the body. In my opinion that would be enough to qualify as a dream as it still involves sleep - not to mention I may be doing this without really knowing and record it in the dream thread. I mean, I all of my dreams are really vivid but since meeting Alice I've trained myself to have vivid dreams - my filter is usually continuity or the thought "would these people actually do this?" I mean, even memory is unreliable to me as I can clearly remember when me and Alice fell in love but that was a memorable moment - as was one of the first nightmares I had as that was also memorable. Of course, if this is a private matter then I won't insist. I just personally have an interest in what people from the outside world do in Gensokyo.
???-2004?=dark ages, 2005?=atomic betty era, 2006=red dwarf era, 2007-2009=newgrounds era, 2009-2014= anime era.

Been good talking to you all. Gensokyo gu braith!

Toushiro Scarlet

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2016, 07:06:08 AM »
Sure, why not?

Anyway, I've got another interesting theory about the "game"itself as a whole. I'll be posting it here when I got some free time (Washing the dishes, doing homeworks and chores literally took up my entire day!)
Real Science is when you try your hardest to prove your own theory wrong.

Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2016, 06:06:59 AM »
Well, although I'm still in grade school-
You write on a junior college level.  Well done.   :)

If you want to get even better, though, you'll want to cite your sources.  If you're making a claim, you really want to cite evidence supporting it.  Furthermore, theories are meant to be crash-tested, which others seem to be doing in this thread; you'll want to pay attention to evidence that counters your claims as well.

I've another question.  You said that:

Touhou is a franchise created by ZUN, under the request of Yukari, to help spread faith and belief of Youkai and God.

I believe you mean the God of Abrahamic faith, correct?  If so, please elaborate on how this relates to Touhou.

Toushiro Scarlet

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2016, 06:24:21 AM »
Quote
I believe you mean the God of Abrahamic faith, correct?  If so, please elaborate on how this relates to Touhou.

Well, you know, the friendship between ZUN and Yukari is just purely my theory, I'm sorry, but I really don't know anything about the God of Abrahamic faith.
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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2016, 08:17:48 PM »
OOOH!   *raises hand*

Can I play the part of the Devils' Advocate ???
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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #75 on: September 29, 2016, 08:42:07 PM »
please dont

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2016, 11:36:21 AM »
OOOH!   *raises hand*

Can I play the part of the Devils' Advocate ???

Oh yes, nothing improves a discussion on the internet like someone playing devil's advocate!

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2016, 04:06:13 AM »
 :V Ahh, where to begin?
 
:ohdear:  Well here goes nothing.

Let me refute your theory by saying, that there is a contradiction in the fact that when you first state that it was requested by Yukari to ZUN in order to create the Touhou franchise; along with the fact that when you say that when ZUN created Touhou he created Yukari.That is a paradox. If they were to collaborate before-hand of the genesis of the Touhou kingdom (or queendom), your theory in of itself disproves the fact that Yukari came to ZUN in order to create the franchise in the first place.

(Here's where it gets tricky for me.)

Because you also say that Yukari can break free from this so-called, "Author's Chain", she can do whatever she pleases? Right? Even bend the border/boundary of Time itself?
Well, I can say that I disagree with that notion.
Contrary to popular belief she does not have power over everything. Why? From my interpretation, she can only open tears and cracks between dimensions, but only to observe, nothing more. And since boundaries are a sort of middle ground or something in between two things or concepts, she only has the ability to manipulate the border of those two concepts and/or ideas but not the subject matter in of itself. Whether to expand, strengthen, shrink, or open the border/boundary is up to her, she cannot move or manipulate the border/boundary of a particular concept, such as existence, unless the very idea or concept itself changes, or certain circumstances forces those changes. The best way I can put it into perspective is sort of like Maxwell's Demon in a way. (long read but for those who don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon) To sum it up, if Yukari were the demon, in order for her to make only a temperature difference between the two containers she'd have to make a difference between both of those containers and not just a one way door. And in a sense she'd have to make changes to both concepts in order to make a difference. In other words she'd have to influence one or the other in order for those changes to happen in any way. For example, she can only manipulate the Great Hakurei Barrier leading to Gensokyo but not actually control Gensokyo itself. Therefore, Yukari is not so omnipotent.
With that in mind, we can safely say that unfortunately, Yukari cannot control the flow of time itself.

This is slightly off topic and really hypothetical; But, there is another theory that time is non-linear, but that has yet to be proven. Because, from our perspective Time appears to be linear, but that's only because our brains perceive it that way. There's almost no way to tell if your perception and interpretation of time is the same as mine, or if there even is such a thing as time. So what I'm trying to say, is that Time can be subjective on the fact that you state that it's part of our dimension. Rather, in a physical sense, time is more of a measurement; Just not part of the main three spatial dimensions that's prevalent in our reality. With this illusion of time we can't necessarily say that there's a timeline, the only reason we put time in a respective line is to order the events of history as we know it, because of the human limitations and how we perceive it moving forward. And since we cannot perceive time or even know if there is time in another dimension it kind of goes against the theory of "everything you create becomes real".

Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth. The only way Gensokyo became real in the minds of people was from it's swift popularity uprising. It has a certain surreal aspect of it that does seem believable, so that you can persuade someone to believe that it is. Not everything that people create become reality to a point, as there are such a thing as broken dreams and discarded ideas. Whatever happens to them? Do they eventually fade with time or does it even exist at all? If you plant the seed of an idea and nourish it, then that's when the dream comes alive, but when that seed of an idea faces neglect and discouragement then it will eventually die out and fade.

So the conclusion? Yukari can only travel to different dimensions, and whether or not she planned it all is indefinite. But she does certainly have influence if that's the case. And if ZUN created the very idea of Gensokyo he probably didn't get contacted by Yukari at all. Seeing as how in one of the openings of the games (I forget which one) it pretty much says that all the characters have entered Gensokyo from that point on. Canonically speaking Gensokyo was technically created in the year 1885, seeing as how PCB came out in 2003 Yukari came in only after the barrier was created, probably to keep it running.

So there you have it. :3
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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2016, 06:38:12 AM »
I'm sorry, but I really don't know anything about the God of Abrahamic faith.

Only theologians seem to, given the multiple interpretations of YHWH/Iehova/Allah, but I've noticed some common trends.  Foremost is that the God of Abraham wants people to worship him to the exclusion of all others.     Second is that wants a one-world community dedicated to his ideals.  Lastly, he wants his worshipers to be doers and builders; to expand, reshape the world, and improve on what's there.  Basically, he's the god of monotheism, monoculture, and monolithic urbanization -- all of which would make him a very unlikely associate for Yukari.

Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2016, 06:56:23 AM »
The point of the Abrahamic God, at least in modern interpretations, is that He is A) Omnipotent: can do literally anything at any time, with no limits. If anything happens in the world, it's because God let it happen. B) Omniscient: knows everything at once, including what will happen in the future. God exists outside of time. C) Omnibenevolent: everything God does is for the greater good of the universe. We can't necessarily see the big picture, but God can. This is the best of all possible worlds.

From this perspective, God doesn't have a personality or motives or anything, and is very much not "a bearded man in the sky". He's closer to the personification of the Will of the Universe or something abstract like that. Any traits He has are merely the logical consequences of being Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent. A metaphysical singularity, if you will.

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2016, 11:47:05 AM »
The Abrahamic God is simply the god of the Abrahamic faiths, i.e., Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The name is derived from how all these faiths trace themselves back to Abraham. That's it.

What qualities and powers this god has not only changes between these faiths, but between denominations within these faiths. Sometimes they disagree a little, sometimes a lot. So really the only thing you could say with certainty about this god is that Jews, Christians and Muslims believe he exists. Isn't more complicated than that.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Toushiro Scarlet

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2016, 10:27:43 AM »

Let me refute your theory by saying, that there is a contradiction in the fact that when you first state that it was requested by Yukari to ZUN in order to create the Touhou franchise; along with the fact that when you say that when ZUN created Touhou he created Yukari.That is a paradox. If they were to collaborate before-hand of the genesis of the Touhou kingdom (or queendom), your theory in of itself disproves the fact that Yukari came to ZUN in order to create the franchise in the first place.

Thanks for your opinion! Your theory is quite amazing as well!

However, I'm really sorry that I didn't convert my message quite clear in the first theory. By that I actually mean, the fact that Yukari requests ZUN to create Touhou franchise and the fact that by creating Touhou, ZUN creates Yukari is two different theory, that does not interfere with each other. (This is so confusing!) Again, sorry for not stating that clearly!

Real Science is when you try your hardest to prove your own theory wrong.

Toushiro Scarlet

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2016, 02:09:45 PM »
Now, after a long time, why don't we start our fourth episode?

In this episode, we are going to talk about some history of Gensokyo, and why does ZUN (or Yukari) choose to release Touhou in the late 90s, in such a particular time. For these, I have got a theory.

First, we all know that Gensokyo is established in 1885, right? Gensokyo is created because of the Meiji Restoration in Japan, that leads to a loss of faith for Youkai. Faith for Youkai is like blood for human, without faith, Youkai would disappear into nothingness.

Faith comes from all sort of form, which are almost all based on recognition of one entity. For example, worshipping, respect, or even friendship is a kind of faith, and that's possibly why some of the Youkai can survive in the modern world, outside the barrier (probably by transforming into a normal human and live like a human).

Oops, I've gone too far into another topic. Okay, now let's go back to Gensokyo. During these months, I have spent quite a lot of time researching folklores and myths, and I have found a quite surprising fact, which is that there are quite a lot of Japanese Youkai had their origin in Chinese folklore. This means that, some Japanese Youkai actually comes from China.

Now, this leads to the point I'm going to talk about. I still don't quite know the mechanism of the Great Hakurei Barrier (In this theory, let's assume it's faith-based) , but one thing for sure, it enables Youkai to survive without faith. But even though they can survive, they still need to gather "fear" (which is actually a form of faith) from the human village. This proves that, even with the barrier, Youkai still somehow requires faith, possibly to maintain their abilities.

After Meiji Restoration, it's not very likely to gather enough faith from Japan, due to rapid Westernization (The faith gathered from the Human Village is not enough to power the barrier, due to low population). I also said before, that some Japanese Youkai actually comes from China. This gave us a very clear answer: To gather faith from China (At that time, China have only one-fifth population compared to today, or even less).

China is a multi-religious country since it's creation dated back to 5000 years ago (I'm Chinese!). Not only do they believe in Taoism and Buddhism, they also worship some other entities, like stouts and foxes. This tradition is carried on even after the Xinhai Revolution that overthrew the imperialistic Qing dynasty, but it does not last long, after WWII and the Chinese Civil War.

After the Chinese Civil War, the Chinese Communist Party took control of China, and Chairman Mao (We call him Emperor Mao in Chinese forums) initiates the "Big Jump" movement in the late 50s (I'm not sure if it's the correct English name, I translated it straight from Chinese), which leads to one of the point we are going to talk about, the Cultural Revolution.

One of the core value for the Cultural Revolution is to "break the old tradition", which actually means to kill off the religious traditions, demolish the temples and shrines, and destroy the statues of gods. Many religious people are captured and brainwashed into believing atheism, or if they refuse, they are killed.

 This delivers a huge blow to Gensokyo, due to a hefty amount of faith had their origin in China. Because the barrier is faith-based, such loss of faith would inevitably cause a diminish of power for the barrier.

And the next movement, brought by the Chinese Communist Party, is the "Open Up" movement started in 1978. The aim for this movement is to promote technological development and scientific education, especially for the rural population (Where most religious tradition are kept intact).  When combined with the atheistic nature of the Communist Party, this movement is the last straw for the faith in Gensokyo.

Due to the scientific and atheistic "brainwashing" by the Communist Party, more and more people begins to ditch their religious belief. This makes the belief for the existance of supernatural phenomenon weaker and weaker, and thus the power of the Great Hakurei Barrier.

Even though she have to sleep at least 12 hours every day to keep up the power of the Barrier, Yukari was quite worried to see the power of the Barrier fading away. Each and every year, due to the diminish of faith, the Barrier loses part of its power. If this keeps going on, the Barrier will completely break down after a few decade, and when that happens, all of Gensokyo would be gone.

In order to prevent this, Yukari thought about an idea, and that's how Touhou was born. Yukari found a promising individual programmer, whose name is Junya Oota. She then begins to interact with him (Either through friendship, or manipulating his fate in an unknown way) to make her dream come true.

In the 90s, the first 5 Touhou games comes out, all under the name of three letters, ZUN. Those games describe a story of a hidden eastern "wonderland" called Gensokyo, and many incidents that happens in it. These games creates a whole new generation in the history of Doujin games, and a huge amount of fanbase was established after 2000, when the Windows games comes out.

The name "Touhou" means "Eastern" in Japanese, and that's exactly what Gensokyo is. A pure eastern wonderland, well hidden from the invasion of greedy capitalism, where Human and Youkai lives in harmony, where the legends come to life.

Fortunately, the tremendous amount of faith from the fanbase restored the power to the barrier. I don't really know if that means Yukari doesn't have to sleep for 12 hours to keep up the barrier, but there are one thing for sure, the dream will carry on, the legend will keep going, and the wonderland will flourish, for centuries and millennia.
Real Science is when you try your hardest to prove your own theory wrong.

Tengukami

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Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2016, 03:28:52 PM »
This delivers a huge blow to Gensokyo, due to a hefty amount of faith had their origin in China. Because the barrier is faith-based, such loss of faith would inevitably cause a diminish of power for the barrier.

You're making your own "Great Leap Forward" in logic here with this one.

Even if we assume that all Japanese youkai are descended from Chinese youkai (and a lot of them are, but not all of them), it doesn't necessarily follow that the closing and modernization of China directly affected youkai in Gensokyo.

Like, if people immigrated from Italy to the US, settled there and lived there for generations, if there were political upheaval in Italy, it would have no effect whatsoever on Italians living in the US.

And the whole Mobius Strip of cause and effect that you've created by contending that a) Yukari spoke to ZUN and asked him to create Touhou Project, and b) Yukari is created by ZUN and born from Touhou Project is like ... yeah I don't even see how that works.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 03:31:30 PM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Toushiro Scarlet

  • The Dragon Magician
Re: My theory about Touhou and Gensokyo [Episode 1]
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2016, 05:31:10 AM »
That's something I really didn't know quite much about. After all, it's important to understand how the Barrier really works, but what I said before was one possibility, right?
Real Science is when you try your hardest to prove your own theory wrong.