Powercreep and Dragons Thread XXVII: Making Juggler less OP all day everyday

[Suikama]

For me it's more like I get to use utility actives like delay or gravity without having to swap out hypermaxed subs for shitty farmables

So the only problem would be if equipping costs MP, or if you are limited to equipping rem cards only


Also the game has already creeped past the point where you need over 6 actives to survive with the anihillation coop dungeons so I don't see how this could make it worse. It's not like awakenings caused dungeon creep by themselves so a new feature shouldn't be bad in that regard

[Mr. Sacchi]

That's if we're talking dual-active system, right?

[Suikama]

No that's with the dual/replacement system. Basically normally I swap out like dkali for ex Hydra which means I take a huge hit in stats and awakenings. But if I can equip dkali then I don't really mind losing her active since I would have lost it anyways with putting in exhydra, but now i also get to keep the superior dkali body stats

Plus I'd still have dkalis active available for certain turns if I wanted

[Suikama]

Also this is pretty huge for awoken Horus since you can replace his useless active with something actually good now

[Mr. Sacchi]

Anybody that thinks that being able to activate a x6,75 atk multiplier alongside a x2,25 rcv multiplier every other turn is bad... is frankly wrong.

Horus's active is far from the absolute greatest thing in the world, but its short cooldown gives me quick and easy access to the second half of AHorus's active which is frankly where a lot of his power comes from, plus the +1 second of orb movement counters out any orb move debuffs and makes it easier for me to actually activate the big damage.

[commandercool]

Plus, don't stall teams have a lot of crucial actives to stop themselves from dying? Losing even one of them can be pretty deadly as far as I know, and you can't even put Freezing Shift on a better leader than Beyzul because of horrible cooldowns.

This is kind of an abbreviated response because I'm on my phone, and it's still regarding a mechanic that we don't understand, but I'll at least directly respond to the one thing I quoted.

I would not be willing to risk most of my actives because I need them at a moment's notice to stall. Offensive actives though, which in my case are Reine and Beyzul, are things I'm much more willing to lose reliability on for utility. I can't think of many, if any, instances in the game where needing to stall an extra turn or even several before bursting will hurt me. Sometimes I need to burst consecutively, but I'll always know that in advance and be able to make sure my slower utility active is safely on cooldown.

I do share your concerns about power creep, this is potentially sketchy as hell, but it's sounding like it matters to me more than it does to actual good teams so I'm cautiously optimistic. Maybe that's greedy, but hey, it's coming regardless.

What I'm not optimistic about though is the cost. I basically expect this to be whales-only. We'll see.

There's also something to be said for "strict upgrade" actives like putting Force on Awoken Orochi. If it's affordable (and it nay not be...) that does seemingly just benefit everyone. Unless this mechanic works significantly differently than we think it does.

[Suikama]

Yeah but remember you don't lose anything until the second skill is charged. So you'll still have Horus active available every 4 turns but on top of that it can become a lkali or something if you stall long enough. There's basically no downside for weak actives since you can just put a stronger version of the same active on top, or even just the same active to act as a skill delay shield

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Playing alt Cosita

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[Mr. Sacchi]

Yeah but remember you don't lose anything until the second skill is charged. So you'll still have Horus active available every 4 turns but on top of that it can become a lkali or something if you stall long enough. There's basically no downside for weak actives since you can just put a stronger version of the same active on top, or even just the same active to act as a skill delay shield

Although true, the cost for this is still a concern, and I'm not going to let a potentially sketchy system go uncriticized just because it happens to favor my main lead.

[OverlordChirei]

It's really the teams that focus more on staying power and not spike damage that need this. Everything that's top tier already shits out incredible damage and frankly won't get much mileage out of it unless they can actually stall the additional turns. I'm already reaching the point with my teams where six actives is not enough because some of them are just not good at certain times.

Tbh even if they made the cost something like 50K per equip, all I would really need is one or two per team to have them be set. Even if it was reworked to dual-choice system, having the option to pick twelve seems too overkill, and lots of default actives are already pretty good because you'd want the speedier ones anyway. It's just stuff like Pure or 7star that's situational.

[Suikama]

Playing alt Cosita

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BEGGING FOR LIFE

[Suikama]

Also I don't see how skill inheritance can consistute as power creep. It's really the opposite since like chirei said, it gives weaker teams way more options while stronger teams either don't care or just get more utility.

[commandercool]

Playing alt Cosita

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She's so cute though.

I want to hug her.

But I must kill her, even though she begs for life. PAD is a cruel game.

[Suikama]

Every time a number increases

That feeling

That's me

Puzzles and Dragons

[Mr. Sacchi]

Also I don't see how skill inheritance can consistute as power creep. It's really the opposite since like chirei said, it gives weaker teams way more options while stronger teams either don't care or just get more utility.

It gives weak monsters more power and gives strong monsters answers to situations they may not have otherwise, how is that not powercreep? Unless I'm missing some other definition of the word?

@Also


whydoIstillplaythisgame.png

[Suikama]

Well if everything gets stronger then how is that kind of power increase bad

The bad creep is when something new comes out that obsoletes all the old stuff in comparison. Like when Juggler came out there was no point in not using him if you had him because he was far stronger than anything else and thus the power level standard gets increased and everything below that level of x7 became useless

Skill inheritance makes weaker cards actually useful. Like echinda or muse or w/e. Strong active cards with weak stats or awakenings are actually useful where as before they couldn't be used due to power creep basically now allowing you to use cards with poor stats or awakenings since you need to hit HP thresholds and 100% skill lock resist and bind etc.

[commandercool]

Maybe the term "power creep" doesn't accurately describe my concerns about this, maybe "complexity creep" or "utility creep" is more accurate. My concern is that once this tool becomes available the game will start to require it to be used. If we start to see a lot of dungeons that require six different niche utility actives to get by, we'll have effectively been power creeped. Will that happen? Probably to at least some degree in at least some places.

[Suikama]

Like I said that's already happened with coop, since you get 10 actives and pretty much need all of them if you want to beat mech hera/Zeus

Also I don't see the problem if there's no cost to equipping. If there is then yamap has some balls making a statement like DONT WORRY GUYS YOULL LOVE SPENDING MORE MONEY I BET MY JOB ON IT

[OverlordChirei]

Like I said that's already happened with coop, since you get 10 actives and pretty much need all of them if you want to beat mech hera/Zeus

Also I don't see the problem if there's no cost to equipping. If there is then yamap has some balls making a statement like DONT WORRY GUYS YOULL LOVE SPENDING MORE MONEY I BET MY JOB ON IT

I feel like there definitely is going to be some kind of cost or catch to equipping, that would be horrendously strong if I could just change things up that hard at will.

[Suikama]

1 equip = 1 soul of a newborn child

[Mr. Sacchi]

Like I said that's already happened with coop, since you get 10 actives and pretty much need all of them if you want to beat mech hera/Zeus

Also I don't see the problem if there's no cost to equipping. If there is then yamap has some balls making a statement like DONT WORRY GUYS YOULL LOVE SPENDING MORE MONEY I BET MY JOB ON IT

Suikama, this is YamaP we're talking about.

[Suikama]

Normally yeah but I'm not sure why he'd make such a bet unless he's legit insane

[commandercool]

It doesn't really matter if co-op has already given us a version of this, because we'll have way more utility after this cones out than we did before. Single play dungeons have twelve possible actives, co-op has twenty. I'm having a hard time buying that this is going to be a freebie and the game won't take it to account when designing dungeons. Even if they do it's fine as long as we can use it, but there's been a lot of concern that we won't all be able to use it. Whether it's spike teams or non-whales, if somebody gets left out but the game demands they use it things could get ugly. It could just be a metagame shift, which I'm not against, but it could also be a paywall and that would be a very bad thing.

Or it could be a meticulous and well-thought-out design choice to bring more teams up to the high tiers that's explicitly meant to not work with the current top tier and dungeons will not get harder to match. I mean, I don't feel like I've ever been fucked over that badly by PAD, certainly not relative to most other games. The only time I've been really turned off by them was when I got the co-op door kind of slammed in my face, and that wasn't really a design problem. I guess I trust then to not fuck it up too bad, but this is potentially a huge change and definitely a huge unknown. And that, well...

That's frightening.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Normally yeah but I'm not sure why he'd make such a bet unless he's legit insane

I've seen weirder things happen coming out of Asian games.

Like a certain other company thinking that creating a character whose entire sales pitch is "DOES EVERYTHING WELL, HAS NO WEAKNESSES" in a primarily pvp game is a good idea. And then proceeding to completely ignore the players when they collectively groan in response. And still expecting them to spend money on said character.

But hey, at least YamaP listened back when the original Awokens were going to require both uvos of a given monster, so that's something, I guess.

[commandercool]

Okay, I don't understand, how do I get a decent score in ranked? I've been running it all day with Awoken Ra for lack of anything better to do. Four of my seven runs have been what I'd consider to be perfect. I beat then in six moves, didn't spend more than a moment solving each board, got a high combo count, used Muse on my last attack for maximum damage, and had no particular problems. And my score is still horrible.

The ONLY thing I can think to do is just mindlessly grind away until I get a perfect board with eight white orbs and all colors and notice in time to use Muse to crank up my max damage and I can't imagine that would matter THAT much.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Okay, I don't understand, how do I get a decent score in ranked? I've been running it all day with Awoken Ra for lack of anything better to do. Four of my seven runs have been what I'd consider to be perfect. I beat then in six moves, didn't spend more than a moment solving each board, got a high combo count, used Muse on my last attack for maximum damage, and had no particular problems. And my score is still horrible.

The ONLY thing I can think to do is just mindlessly grind away until I get a perfect board with eight white orbs and all colors and notice in time to use Muse to crank up my max damage and I can't imagine that would matter THAT much.

I'm fairly sure the answer to this question is "use leads that don't require more than 2 combos to deal retarded amounts of damage."

Rainbow leads, naturally, are out of the question.

[Suikama]

Okay, I don't understand, how do I get a decent score in ranked? I've been running it all day with Awoken Ra for lack of anything better to do. Four of my seven runs have been what I'd consider to be perfect. I beat then in six moves, didn't spend more than a moment solving each board, got a high combo count, used Muse on my last attack for maximum damage, and had no particular problems. And my score is still horrible.

The ONLY thing I can think to do is just mindlessly grind away until I get a perfect board with eight white orbs and all colors and notice in time to use Muse to crank up my max damage and I can't imagine that would matter THAT much.

did you use an active each floor to trigger ara? Cause the active animations alone will cause you to lose a fair amount of points

Other than that it really comes down to going fast. Start and end your combo ASAP, as if you had 0 time extends.

Also 10x confirmed woooo

[commandercool]

I'm fairly sure the answer to this question is "use leads that don't require more than 2 combos to deal retarded amounts of damage."

Rainbow leads, naturally, are out of the question.

Harumph.

Can't really see NepDra working for this so I guess I'm just fucked again. Maaaybe it would be worth testing Reine I guess.

did you use an active each floor to trigger ara? Cause the active animations alone will cause you to lose a fair amount of points

Other than that it really comes down to going fast. Start and end your combo ASAP, as if you had 0 time extends.

Also 10x confirmed woooo

I used some actives, yeah. Whenever the  board was missing colors or if I couldn't get prongs and wouldn't kill bulky enemies otherwise.

I'm not practiced in playing a rainbow team without time extends, but I wasn't going out of my way to maximize every board or anything.

[OverlordChirei]

Can't really see NepDra working for this so I guess I'm just fucked again. Maaaybe it would be worth testing Reine I guess.

I've seen people getting crazy scores with Reine/Reine or Elize/Elize, so try it if you have the gall.

I actually just tried three stones' worth of stamina and got to 1.7%, and apparently 1% is about 4k above that so screw it. Not many predras either, so it's a pretty raw deal.

[commandercool]

I've seen people getting crazy scores with Reine/Reine or Elize/Elize, so try it if you have the gall.

I actually just tried three stones' worth of stamina and got to 1.7%, and apparently 1% is about 4k above that so screw it. Not many predras either, so it's a pretty raw deal.

I would think that would involve five orbchanges and one poison, and I'm not sure I can pull that off. Might just have to bring Awoken Ra to deal with the PreDras because I don't think I have a blue alternative that would be up in time. Maybe Reine/Gabe/Alrescha/Sumire/Ra/Reine. Don't really like Sumire particularly on this team but I don't have many alternatives. I'll give it a shot.

Also, PreDras can drop? What's the rate? I've never seen one drop so I assumed they just couldn't.

Edit: Apparently I don't have any Reine friends (not shocking I guess) so I used an Andromeda. Didn't really work. It was a lot faster though. I guess I'd give it another shot or two if I could find a Reine. Does anyone have a skillmax one? It probably doesn't need to be hypermax, skillmax would do.