Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F

[maxwell3094]

So I finally got around to finishing up the postgame so that I'm all set for the plus disk.  Thought I might use NG+ as a chance to mess around with some characters I mostly skipped over the first time.  Is that bug where starting a NG+ that includes Renko and Mari breaks the 3 postgame bosses still an issue?  The achievements for them didn't pop when I started one as a quick test but I figured I might as well just ask to be sure.  After all it would be pretty annoying to only find out they broke way later on when I reach them.

On a side note yay another thing I finally got around to finishing was catching up on all these LoT2 threads!

[novice259]

1. Postgame bosses are ridiculously hard due to their super-inflated stats unless you utilize both buffs and debuffs so bring strong buffers and/or debuffers: Hina (use maxed Biorythm to debuff all of enemies' stats.), Keine (group buffs) or Iku, (80% single target atk/mag buff) Even if you use those people, you still have to grind at 20F until you are around Level 150 then delevel OR kick your party member out with A button at human village if you want to fight them at challenge level.

The Poison Wasp usually alternates between its weak AoE Wind spell and its 1 single-target Nature poison attack or weak AoE Nature poison spell. (Attack = hits DEF, Spell = hits MND) Its attack stats is also ridiculously high so bring Wriggle with around 200-300 Nature resistance and around 10000 DEF and MND and use her as a tank. She will soak most of the damage (takes 7k damage if her Defense is unbuffed) and help reduce Poison effect on your party.

Now, its Defense is also ridiculously high but lower Mind. Your Physical attacker should be around 20k - 30k and the wasp's Defense needs to be debuffed (you don't need it to be -50% all the time but 30% - 50% are generally okay) to even pierce its high Defense. Also, if you can, max out your main attacking skill to further improve its damage. For reference, in my Plus Disk Trial run, Kasen with 26k with maxed Cursed Arm skill, maxed attack buff can deal 200k with her Cursed Arm if the wasp's defense is fully debuffed. Yuugi with 35k ATK and maxed attack buff can take out 1/4 HP of the fully debuffed wasp with maxed KOiTS.

In short, you need to use both buffs and debuffs if you want to get past the postgame bosses. The last shadow boss is extremely BS though.

Thank you for the advice! Strategist Wriggle was the MVP of the fight, tanking everything and ensuring Byakuren never dropped below 100% buffs. Nitori's Super Scope with 100% ATK buffs ended up killing the boss in 2 hits, most of the fight was just waiting for an opening to switch her in.

Here's the team I used, for reference:

• Strategist Wriggle
• Herbalist Mokou
• Byakuren
• Keine (to get Byakuren's buffs up quicker)
• Hexer Hina (debuffs everything)
• Guardian Komachi (SHK was surprisingly effective)
• Transcendent Nitori (best damage dealer)
• Healer Rumia (only needed to heal once)

Now it's onto the other Enhanced Bosses! Surely they won't be as difficult as the wasp, right?

[Sakurei]

So after a long time of putting off playing the game for reasons that now seem incredibly silly, I started playing this game on Monday. Really took me back to the time I first played LoT1; very addicting. I ended up playing over 50 hours in not quite 5 days and finished the main game yesterday. I went through most of the post game today (haven't killed any of the 4 super boss things and missing the enhanced bossrush too). My biggest gripe the with game is probably that Youmu is just shit. I really liked pretty much all other changes from the first game (maybe not the MP system but I'm undecided on that, it goes both ways). My favorite change was probably that they took Nitori and broke her even more than she already was. In any case, my very balanced team looks like this:

Komachi (Strategist)
Nitori (Monk)
Patchouli (Sorcerer)
Reimu (Healer)
Keine (Herbalist)
Suika (Warrior)
Kaguya (Gambler)
Minoriko
Kanako (Transcendent)
Alice (Transcendent)
Kasen (Transcendent)
Eiki (Transcendent)

As you can see, I put a lot of thought into my subclasses :^) As a tank, Komachi doesn't do much anymore because Nitori does it better but her Strategist perks are nice so she is still in the party. Maybe the Guardian damage reduction would have been more useful on her. I tried out a bunch of characters that ended up not being in the party but maybe one day I'll switch stuff around to see how they are when you take them further, as well as the few I completely ignored. I pretty much went with similar strategies as I would in LoT1. Disregard what the boss does and just wail on them until they're dead, occasionally heal. If their defenses were high, just buff some more before you hit them. Always worked in the first game so why not in this one? I also have a feeling that I didn't change my level up points nearly as much as I was probably intended to. I managed to find use for that feature twice. Both times on characters I ended up not using for very long as well. I may have not made full use of that :^)
On another note, some of the achievements were pretty dumb, by the way. The equipment Nitori sells is shit, why would I spend 200k on that? Also escaping 50 times in one dive or getting 36 items. Fucking hell. Another thing that annoyed me in the first game and did in this one as well were Battle Point requirements. Forcing the player to use characters they may not want to use is a shit feature. The FOE feature was a great idea though. I really liked those fights. A good way to introduce some sort of mini-boss without cluttering the map with boss events. I also liked that they found a way to get easy access to boss without just putting them at the end of a map like it was often the case in LoT1 with a relay point in front (although that was still often used). I liked the music too. I can't even decide which of the stratosphere themes I like most.

The next time I play, I plan to defeat the four super boss things and the V2 boss rush. I haven't looked at the wiki but since there was a V2 for every not-2hu boss, probably there will be one for the final boss too so I would fight that too. (And maybe grind before it if it's too strong)

As for the Enhanced boss difficulty, I found Azure Giant to be the most difficult. Everyone just somehow died really quickly except for Nitori but she couldn't deal great damage because of the buffs. Knowledge was fun too. I had to kill it before it could fire off the Ether Flare because it dealt 50k to Nitori with 300 MYS affinity, so naturally, everyone died. Short damage race. In contrast, the Poison Wasp wasn't so bad if you have a character who can deal a fourth of the boss HP per hit. The strongest Kappa.

[Serela]

You should plunk Transcendent subclass on Nitori and gawk at how high her stats are after you max it's boost passive.

[Sakurei]

Yeah, the increase was pretty significant (4,500 on ATK, 30 on SPD, 1,800 HP and then 2,000 and DEF/MND) but I lose some pretty sweet perks if I move her from Monk. The 50% chance of instant start for 2 free buffs, the self buff and lowered delays are all pretty good. I'm also a fan of the NTR attack that pierces DEF that the Monk subclass brings. I'll play around with her on Transcendent tomorrow to see which one I like better. Transcendent seems like the subclass you put people in where you have no idea what else to do with them. Or at least that was the case with me.

[Serela]

That's sort of true, and bulky attackers in generally just do pretty well with transcendent, but Nitori's case of low base stats propped up by Maintennance actually makes transcendent an especially powerful class for her; the stat boosts are MUCH larger for her than for most characters. You get more stats out of that than with the passive buff in her case.

The piercing attack is really good, but Nitori's nuke is already pretty good at that so she doesn't generally need it (unless it's like, a super high def enemy that's also weak to ntr).

[Sakurei]

You know, you are probably right when you say that Transcendent is better for Nitori but after playing around a bit, I've noticed Nitori missing a lot more as a Transcendent as well as missing Iron Mountain Charge on some of the post-game bosses, since basically all of them strongly resists PHY and are weak to NTR. The Second Sun in particular has high defenses it seems and Nitori's 3D gun actually dealt less damage in the same amount of time than the Iron Charge did. And with the Desire eating Demon and the Guardian of the Crystal being very strong against PHY and weak to NTR, I feel like having Nitori as a Monk right now is actually more beneficial than the stat gain from being Transcendent.

I'm probably just biased and being dumb because I've had good experiences with Nitori in this subclass so changes scare me, idk :^)

edit: Nitori quite literally killed the Desire eating Demon on her own with Iron Mountain Charge, dealing whatever amount of HP it had on her own. This just confirms MVP in Monk for me. Maybe for the final boss V2 it might be better to switch to Transcendent, but right now definitely not.

[jaxter0987]

Not giving Komachi Healer / Monk is baffling to me but I guess with your lineup, she's the only character that can reliably stay out on the field forever.

I'd personally give Strategist to Keine and give Herbalist to Minoriko, if you're dead set on having Herbalist on the team. Minoriko has plenty of free time on the team, since after switching her in to heal up Komachi after a big nuke or something, she's not doing much else. Reimu / Keine are keeping your defenses topped off, and Keine has the added burden of buffing your team's attack, so giving her another burden of applying the Herbalist buffs is a bit much in my opinion.

[Sakurei]

What you're saying makes sense in regards to Keine but I haven't had any issues with her being overburdened in practice. I actually use Keine for defensive buffs only occasionally, when the situation doesn't need offensive buffs so maybe that's why. To be honest, I never even considered Healer/Monk on Komachi or Strategist on Keine. For the former it was always going to be Guardian for the damage reduction or Strategist and for Keine it was always going to be Herbalist or Enhancer. I did consider Healer/Herbalist for Minoriko but felt like her heal was powerful enough as is and having two Herbalists would feel overkill (maybe it's not, idk).
I do have to correct you on one thing though. With my lineup, Komachi isn't the only one who can reliably stay out forever. Nitori can do the same and is my second slot character. Some library investment and proper equipment actually make her a wonderful tank, in addition to damage dealer.

[Serela]

in postgame nitori is broke as hell. All her stats and resistances skyrocket with the best gears on. Tankiest character in your party... in a full atk build.

Why does she have a super strong team synergy skill in the postgame trial leak data that'd make her stats even massively higher??? Well, maybe it won't actually be in the game.

[jaxter0987]

Komachi tanks with Elemental resistances and her insane HP pool. I guess an argument could be made about the damage reduction from Guardian, but the added benefit of 4% more regeneration due to either Monk / Healer is also strong in its own right specifically for Komachi. Healer gives Komachi something else to do when she's not spamming Avici for the debuffs/ switching people out, and Monk's passive 4% stat buff per turn shouldn't be underestimated as having SPD buffs on your tank is important.

I tend to pretend Nitori doesn't exist because of how broken she is.

[Kirin no Sora]

I tend to pretend Nitori doesn't exist because of how broken she is.

Truthfully, it's not Nitori that's broken, but the Maintenance skill(honestly, please nerf it to a 50% equip stat increase instead of a flat out equip stat doubler). So, I know that I asked this before, but how viable is Nitori without that skill, given all of her other skills and what not?

[Serela]

Her nuke is REALLY strong, so it'd still be pretty good even without the boost from maintennance. She'd be a total glass cannon though, and wouldn't bring much else of interest to the table anymore except -just- Super Scope, due to her atk stat being low-ish for a physical attacker and not being capable of staying out. She wouldn't be awful for sure (Super Scope's too strong for that), but I'm not sure she'd do enough damage to outcompete other options either, when there's strong nukes on characters either with more attack variety or more durability or something. Also she can't gamble like Suwako or Flan due to mp costs already being too high, so they'd beat her damage out in terms of all out glass cannon.

But that's if maintennance was totally removed and she didn't get anything in exchange. Anyway, just lowering it to 1.5x would be pretty fair I think. She'd still likely be too good but it probably wouldn't be -dumb- levels of OP? It might be harder to justify giving her a lot of your best gear to really put her at her best?

[ilyanna]

Anyone have access to the F13-15 guide? The pastebin link on the wiki is expired and I was dumb enough to not save it the last time I played through this wonderful game. Now I can't find the guide anywhere.

Cheers

[Kirin no Sora]

Her nuke is REALLY strong, so it'd still be pretty good even without the boost from maintennance. She'd be a total glass cannon though, and wouldn't bring much else of interest to the table anymore except -just- Super Scope, due to her atk stat being low-ish for a physical attacker and not being capable of staying out. She wouldn't be awful for sure (Super Scope's too strong for that), but I'm not sure she'd do enough damage to outcompete other options either, when there's strong nukes on characters either with more attack variety or more durability or something. Also she can't gamble like Suwako or Flan due to mp costs already being too high, so they'd beat her damage out in terms of all out glass cannon.

Ah, I see.

Then maybe something like this should fix her:

Old Stats:
HP    80 (10.0)    
MP    15 (1/18)    
Attack    58 (10.8 )    
Defense    32 (5.6)    
Magic    24 (4.0)    
Mind    36 (6.4)    
Speed    102 (8.7)    
Evasion    15    

New Stats:
HP    99 (12.8 )    
MP    15 (1/18)    
Attack    68 (12.8 )    
Defense    44 (8.0)    
Magic    24 (4.0)    
Mind    48 (8.8 )
Speed    103 (10.2)    
Evasion    28    

Spellcard Changes:

Attack formula for Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall is now 210% ATK - 90% T.DEF, can debuff both DEF and MND by 28% (chance of infliction is unchanged)
Attack formula for Exteeeending Aaaaarm is now 205% ATK - 65% T.DEF, and post use gauge is now 50%
Portable Versatile Machine now also buffs ACC by the same amount as other stats, and post-use gauge is now 85%

New Spellcards:

Kappa Electro-laser
Target: Enemy Row
Element: WND
Post use gauge: 50%
MP Cost: 5
Formula: 180% ATK - 90% T.DEF
Added Effect: 70 + (SLv * 7)% of inflicting PAR (3000 + (SLv * 300)) on enemies.

Skill Changes:

Replacing Maintenance with Sheer Force.

---

How's this? Too OP? Not enough?

[Monothemeerp]

Anyone have access to the F13-15 guide? The pastebin link on the wiki is expired and I was dumb enough to not save it the last time I played through this wonderful game. Now I can't find the guide anywhere.

Cheers

http://pastebin.com/LJ7Y8GvR

Also, I'd love to get back into LoT, but I'm at a grinding point in LoT1 (so I don't really feel like playing that much) and I'm not sure what to do to keep me interested in LoT2 right now. I really wish Plus Disk was out already.

[novice259]

Hello everyone! I have a question about using stat-boosting gems and such: is it better to use them on characters with lowish base stats or on those with higher stats?

For example, when using ATK gems on Nitori, does she get a higher boost then someone like Flandre? I recall reading somewhere in the threads using them for lowish stats gives better stat boosts but I can't recall the exact details.

In other news, I have defeated all the Enhanced Bosses + Deformed Bosses! :toot: Renko looks very OP, Nitori-tier with Maintenance; Maribel is surprisingly bulky and has some interesting spells, good support. On to 16F Extra!

[Serela]

They get the same stat increase, but % wise, this is going to make a bigger difference on characters with lower base stats. Because defenses work on a subtraction formula, your super valuable def/mnd gems might still be best on your tanks, but that'll depend entirely on your party and how you play. Giving Flandre 19 base attack instead of 17 (not real numbers) matters less than getting Chen from 8 base to 10 base.

Since Nitori has low base stats that still matter anyway because maintenance gives her massive boosts, she sees a pretty big return on investment of any kind of gem. Anyone with low stats you use anyway works well for gems, so if you use any low ATK/MAG characters offensively, they're great options, and it can help make some of them more viable.

[novice259]

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I figured using my ATK gems on Nitori would give the best return, Renko looks like a prime candidate for my DEF + MND gems (I have 15 DEF gems, yes I always hoard statboosters). I think I'll feed my SPD gems to Nitori as well, maybe give her TP gems as well.

My apologies if I'm flooding the thread with questions, it's just some stuff I thought of while typing this up:
1. Does defeating non-enhanced Ame no Murakumo with average lvl < 100 drop MAG gems? If it doesn't, I'm guessing the Enhanced Boss Rush and the four hidden bosses might drop some. Nevermind, I used a Reincarnation Tome on Alice, got some gems back.
2. I noticed I still have 2 Chest Keys, are there any locked chests in the postgame areas? I think I've cleared them all out but I might have missed a hole on 14F or something.

Thanks for all your help.

[ZoomyTsugumi]

After a bit of a break from my second NG+ team playthrough of LoT1 I went and fought Eientei.

Did it on a complete whim and came out victorious? Even avoided extra grinding by not defeating Tenshi or even activating her quest nor have I fought Nitori or Suwako or Sanae's Foe either yet. Highest level on my team was only 49 going into the fight lol.

But yeah anyway, Yukari got magic drained like right after she used a quadruple barrier on her first turn. Iku got a lot of MND debuffs from Reisen while she was out. Alice got PAR'd by a Stickleback so she couldnt beat down on Reisen with Return Inanimateness for a while. Honestly I think Ran and Orin were my biggest damage dealers in the entire fight. Had so much bad luck and I only had Rumia as a healer (and not enough time to Iku buff her either) and I still managed to win, wow. Was just a matter of removing Reisen and then debuffing Kaggy and Eirin's magic and then Kaggy died and Eirin got off one Astronomical Entombing but luckily I saved all 3 Zodiac Stones you get before the fight and eqipped em on Ran, Iku and Yukari and they all survived it fairly okay.

So yeah, wow, that was crazy. But I'm not complaining
Sick of 13F as a floor though, might grind on it some but skip getting most of the treasure and just move on as fast as possible.

[Kirin no Sora]

2. I noticed I still have 2 Chest Keys, are there any locked chests in the postgame areas? I think I've cleared them all out but I might have missed a hole on 14F or something.

The first set of floors has a set of three chests next to each other when at that time a player would only have 1 key. Did you check there?

[Lollipop]

I just recently got into this game, and my big question is with the challenge levels.

If I have a team of Lv6, with the exception of one or two Lv7 characters, and I take on a boss with a challenge level of 6, will I get the reward?

Edit: Nevermind, I found out there's a "Average Level" counter  :blush:

[novice259]

The first set of floors has a set of three chests next to each other when at that time a player would only have 1 key. Did you check there?

I already unlocked those ones. After going through every floor, it looks like there are more keys than locked chests. I'm guessing more will be added in the Plus Disk.

[Lollipop]

I beat Komachi, recruited Parsee, and recruited all the characters I could before beginning 4F and now have 13 characters on my team, meaning I won't be able to fit them all inside my party. So that brings the question, which characters are better? (Feel free to include characters I don't have yet)

[MANoBadAssGar Jr.]

I beat Komachi, recruited Parsee, and recruited all the characters I could before beginning 4F and now have 13 characters on my team, meaning I won't be able to fit them all inside my party. So that brings the question, which characters are better? (Feel free to include characters I don't have yet)

Im only at first tenshi battle, but at that point of the game you pretty much already own "basic starting team configuration".
The game is, we sure going to mix match & re-spec on every boss battle.
But at that point in game i mostly use
Komachi for HP tank, (row 1)
Momiji for Phy Def tank, (row 1/2)
Minoriko for single greater heal, (row 3/4)
Reimu for area lesser heal, (row 3/4)
Rumia(r 3/4)/Kasen(r 1/2) for regular/penetration attack (i refer them as assault)
Marisa(r 3/4)/Youmu(r 2/3) for area High damage attack (i refer them as blaster)
Rinnosuke for PT management (row 3/4)
Keine for filling, a bit tank, a bit buffer (row 2/3)
They're the team that on first battle with bossess to see what the boss is like. (as far as i remember it's never work lol)
Later on, i depend on Aya for SPD atk/buffing (row 3/4) (i havent tried evasion tanking yet, but that might be a thing for her)

I never go without Komachi, Momiji, Kasen, Minoriko & Rumia,

I think i have only paired kogasa & parsee on just one boss battle so far. Same with cirno and nitori.

[Monothemeerp]

Everyone still gets EXP, so the way you should decide your party is accordingly to what floor/boss you're facing. Just adjust to whatever you think is best, there's not really leaving any party members behind unless they fall behind really hard on library level investment.

[Serela]

Pretty much everyone is fairly good (there are a few exceptions, and some characters are more situational than others), it's mostly your personal preference, and somewhat what the rest of your party composition is. This is the kind of game where you can make your main attackers from any anyone and it's pretty much fine, if you like them enough. Even Minoriko can be viably used as an attacker with backup support later in the game, due to her passive MAG buffs if you dump some of your magic-boosting gems on her (permanent +100% magic buff due to subclass bonus is sweet- especially in Plus when Byakuren gets nerfed) and in Plus Disk (whenever that happens...) Keine's MAG-boost synergy with Mokou is buffed enough for her to also be an actual viable attacker.

Although there's a few characters that are stupid good. Nitori's maintenance gets steadily more ridiculous as you get better equipment, for example. Parsee is -really- strong early in the game with her crazy high MND and Small Box Large Box damage. Meiling is a crazy good durable attacker even if you don't use any other SDM members. And on the reverse side, Youmu is pretty underwhelming. RIP.

[Monothemeerp]

It's sad, but Youmu is indeed pretty much the most underwhelming character in the game. Everyone is very usable, some more than others, but she's really not the best, sadly enough. She was somewhat fun to use in LoT1 because back then she dealt actual damage. I think the removal of non-elemental attacks kinda killed her a little. Her subpar damage in comparison to others lets her only really function as a tank, and a lot of other characters do that far better. Youmu's decent in the early to fill up a party slot, but that's really it after that.

On another note, after a long time of not playing, then grinding, I have finally beaten Okuu. Kanako is so insane in that fight.

[Lollipop]

I'm getting nowhere with Mokou. She regenerates more health than I can deal. Any suggestions to help?

[Serela]

I don't remember Mokou's regeneration being -that- big of a problem... you're using your level up bonuses on atk/mag and spending library levels/using equipment for your offense characters, right? (I'm sorry if those are dumb questions, but gotta cover the bases!) In any case, Kogasa's water attack is pretty useful, especially if you can land fear on Mokou after learning Troubled Forgotten Item. Nitori boosts water damage in the front row, Keine can buff atk/mag, etc.