Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F

[Starxsword]

I swear if they don't nerf maintenance :V

Yep, with those crazy items, even crazier than Labyrinth of Touhou 1. If maintenance doesn't get nerfed, anyone with it or a similar skill is automatically in god tier.

[qazmlpok]

Since you're still here let me confirm one more thing as well. Alicesoft Wiki lists Range Quest's ウルンセルの刃 as Urunseru Blade, but is that the name in the translated game (if one exists)?

Currently "Urunsel's Blade", "but this could change later."

[Kirin no Sora]

Yep, with those crazy items, even crazier than Labyrinth of Touhou 1. If maintenance doesn't get nerfed, anyone with it or a similar skill is automatically in god tier.

My thoughts on how it could get nerfed:

Maintenance(Main)
Max Level: 1
Skill cost: 15

Doubles the effect of your main equip.

Maintenance(Sub-equip)
Max Level: 3
Skill cost: 15

Doubles the effect of SLv out of 3 sub-equipment slots, starting from the top slot.

Expensive as all hell(4 times the normal cost), but given what it can actually do otherwise, it's worth the price in postgame, where you would need such power the most and can actually afford it.

Still, I'm thinking that this may be the wrong way to nerf such a skill...

[Serela]

That's hardly a nerf, honestly. It's not even overpowered until later in the game, and it'll be just as OP then. Really, what it needs is to be more like a 1.5x equipment power instead of 2x.

Spoiler:

I just tried to see how much HP my Satori would have if I gave her all the HP equips

Spoiler:

I looked at it too using my lv190~ save, and it came out with her at about 70k hp... at a time where 35k damage is like, not a trivial amount, but not a great amount either? However, when you consider how many Patriot Elixirs you can cast in very little time, I think it might work well as a gimmick build. It's hard to say how player character HP will scale with dealt damage in late postgame, though.

With Utsuho's newfound potential, Orin's -awesome- endless corridor skills, and Koishi being added, the depressing Earth Palace Family synergy might be making a comeback. Although it's awfully hard to decide on 12 people now...

Second/Third stat boosts and the family synergy overtop Fighting Spirit will do wonders for Utsuho's durability, along with the trial buffing two of her move's damage formulas. She'll finally manage to climb past being underwhelming!

[Starxsword]

She'll finally manage to climb past being underwhelming!

She might actually be "good". Her offense is more or less there with these boosts.

Expensive as all hell(4 times the normal cost), but given what it can actually do otherwise, it's worth the price in postgame, where you would need such power the most and can actually afford it.

I wouldn't call that expensive when we are talking about post game. Yeah, it is pricy for normal game, but for post game, that cost is not much.

[Kirin no Sora]

That's hardly a nerf, honestly. It's not even overpowered until later in the game, and it'll be just as OP then. Really, what it needs is to be more like a 1.5x equipment power instead of 2x.

Hm, you do indeed have a point there. How about this?

Maintenance
Max Level: 2
Skill Cost: 15

The effect of all equipment on the user is boosted by (SLv * 30)%

Would that work better, or is that too much?

[Serela]

By the way, Utsuho's changes;

-Giga Flare MP cost raised from 8 to 10
-Damage formula went from 154% MAG to roughly 256% MAG (Holy crap, nice! Stronger than Last Judgment (plus she has more MAG and fighting spirit and alltarget) and on par with most non-def-ignoring good attacks! Very solid skill now, albeit MYS is still an awful element; thankfully she's got FIR for non-sky-high-mnd enemies too.)
-Delay changed from 24% to 18% (who cares)

Hell's Tokamak damage formula from 180% MAG to 210~220% MAG but it has slightly more MND influence too. tl;dr end damage should be up about 20%. If you want to leave her in for Fighting Spirit or overheating it's hard to actually use Giga Flare, so her other skills (or subclass ones) are still the go-to for bosses that don't have sky high defenses, especially if you start boosting her base durability lategame. It's nice to see Giga Flare get vastly better, though, because piercing attacks are important in this game.

[Kirin no Sora]

By the way, Utsuho's changes;

-Giga Flare MP cost raised from 8 to 10
-Damage formula went from 154% MAG to roughly 256% MAG (Holy crap, nice! Stronger than Last Judgment (plus she has more MAG and fighting spirit and alltarget) and on par with most non-def-ignoring good attacks! Very solid skill now, albeit MYS is still an awful element; thankfully she's got FIR for non-sky-high-mnd enemies too.)
-Delay changed from 24% to 18% (who cares)

Hell's Tokamak damage formula from 180% MAG to 210~220% MAG but it has slightly more MND influence too. tl;dr end damage should be up about 20%. If you want to leave her in for Fighting Spirit or overheating it's hard to actually use Giga Flare, so her other skills (or subclass ones) are still the go-to for bosses that don't have sky high defenses, especially if you start boosting her base durability lategame. It's nice to see Giga Flare get vastly better, though, because piercing attacks are important in this game.

Mystic may be an awful element to use, but that's kind of why she's got Sheer Force, which lets her ignore at least some of the resistance. Of course, I get the feeling that you did in fact take that into account when you said that it's horrible as an attack element, but still...

[Serela]

sheer force DOES help, but let's face it, it's still probably gonna have enough damage cut off to be sorta meh; or, well, actually...

... well, it's so much stronger now (Nearly doubled power!) that it can actually be usable in a lot more case and compete better against other characters, so, Sheer Force can probably actually matter now. Before, uh... if the enemy resisted MYS it'd still do so little damage it'd hardly be worth the effort. And on Marisa, the other MYS sheer forcer, it's really annoying because it's her ONLY element; it discourages you from wanting to use her in the first place.

So yeah, that probably does help Giga Flare a good chunk.

[Kirin no Sora]

sheer force DOES help, but let's face it, it's still probably gonna have enough damage cut off to be sorta meh; or, well, actually...

... well, it's so much stronger now (Nearly doubled power!) that it can actually be usable in a lot more case and compete better against other characters, so, Sheer Force can probably actually matter now. Before, uh... if the enemy resisted MYS it'd still do so little damage it'd hardly be worth the effort. And on Marisa, the other MYS sheer forcer, it's really annoying because it's her ONLY element; it discourages you from wanting to use her in the first place.

So yeah, that probably does help Giga Flare a good chunk.

Well, in Marisa's case, she has both a skill that boosts MYS damage(Magic Training) and Master Spark's formula(read: more MP means more power) to help her out, plus she has the speed to pull a hit and run strategy. And if you need elemental variety for her, there's Toxicologist to fill in that gap rather nicely, since Sheer Force helps in inflicting status ailments, making that subclass a viable choice for her.

Also, I just remembered that Utsuho's Hell's Tokamak has a powerful Mind debuff(read: 18% Mind debuff with 110% chance, and that's at level zero), and combined with Sheer Force, she can easily end up shredding the enemy's Mind while dealing good Fire damage thanks to her Blazing skill(only Reisen can do better at debuffing Mind while still dealing damage to everything, and her spell of choice for this(Lunatic Red Eyes) is Mystic element, which is already stated to be a terrible element to use for attacking).

[Nyxnyx]

Hi, I'm kinda new here I guess. When is Futo gangs coming out? I see someone has the portrait of new characters and all Really want to get my hands on Koishi.

[Kirin no Sora]

Patience, friend. The new content is going to be a while, since there's an endless corridor for the labyrinth being added as well, among other things.

[Fishin]

Now we just need to hope that the full Plus Disc won't take as long to come out as the trial did.

Also it's great to hear that Giga Flare got buffed.  It still might end up being underpowered because lolMYS, but Utsuho needed it pretty badly.

[Serela]

Well, MYS is bad but it's not -awful- since she still has other good attacks; almost nothing is weak to it and there's lots of resistance, but there's also plenty of chances for it to be good. Now that it actually has high damage, it should be valuable just like Kaguya and Shikieiki are valuable.

[jester147]

Whoa, I didn't touched LoT2 for so long now. I never touched the postgame content, and just recently play it again to get the FOE achievement.

Seems this update is even bigger than LoT1 in terms of equipment and content. Looking forward to it. What about the translation though?

I predict this will be released at Reitaisai, which is coming near.

[Nyxnyx]

Nice to hear that Okuu is getting more damage. I feel she's so weak for someone who was confident enough to consider taking over gensokyo with her "firepower" alone. Now that with the buff she might actually has that said firepower.

With that said is there anymore of the incoming balance changes for the characters?

[Kirin no Sora]

Well, MYS is bad but it's not -awful- since she still has other good attacks; almost nothing is weak to it and there's lots of resistance, but there's also plenty of chances for it to be good. Now that it actually has high damage, it should be valuable just like Kaguya and Shikieiki are valuable.

And given that her synergy skill requires the presence of the game's copycat mage(Satori), that means that Giga Flare could be used twice on enemies. Granted, Satori lacks Sheer Force, meaning that it will be resisted more, but really, copying a Mind piercing Magic attack as Satori is one of the best uses for her Spell Card Recollection skill, provided that she's in a Magic build(read: the same build that also lets her melt faces with Komachi's Narrow Confines of Avici)...

[Serela]

(read: the same build that also lets her melt faces with Komachi's Narrow Confines of Avici)...

Well, yeah, if you're using Komachi (or Suika, Gathering and Dissipating is about the same); the thing about Satori is it's highly dependent who you're using, and considering there's going to be 56 characters and you can only use about a fifth of them (and they're practically -all- really good, esp. after endless corridors bring some of the worse ones more up-to-speed) it can be hard to tell who's gonna be around. And, once you're in postgame and using lv5 skills instead of mostly lv1, Satori does start getting less useful with her lv0s; especially once Gambler is nerfed out so she isn't naturally getting a massive damage boost up on the natural skill users.

I guess on the upside she'll be able to take a hit after that. It's pretty bad for her that she's still only "pretty alright" for characters with massive formula skills though; most characters that can pierce mnd are even only doing it with passives, at this point. Her innate 25% lower damage formula and bad defenses/affinities really hold her back.

I say this with having been -using- Satori for an entire playthrough on my second go-around, if she didn't have Gambler's +90% for a damage advantage she would have done way less than even people like Meiling who don't have awesome base stats, and with her fragility it can be slightly tricky to get her in to copy people later; even outside of Gambler she's liable for getting one-shot in my experience. She's great with Avici and Dissipating but... once Gambler is nerfed you can just get more damage out of bringing in another dedicated attacker, and they'll probably be able to actually take a hit.

This is part of why I'm interested in goofy builds made for her Endless Corridor passive because it's hard to imagine her not being a highly meh character without it! With how much competition there is for party slots I'd probably leave her out even if I was fielding the whole Earth Spirits party; however, if you use all of them and are in postgame, it's possible to fix up Satori's base stats enough to make her non-glassy (not bulky, but able to solidly take some hits with her high hp) so I suppose it can work... if you're using Komachi tank or something.

But yeah, ATK-Satori can use stuff like Mountain Breaker (Potentially outdamages Avici/Gathering due to close formula and half DEF piercing, and on a great bulky attacker, so it's easy to copy) and Super Scope (over half as strong over again as avici because what is balance) and Last Judgment, and Byakuren has good backup moves as the nearly-always-out tank in many parties.

[DarkAtma]

Get 3 chaos swords
Put them on flandre and one shot everything

Profit?

nice to hear finally utsuho got some buffs

[Serela]

Suwako's endless corridor skill should really help her damage out vs. Flan in the glass ultracannon category, although Flan gets some defense piercing now too... >.> Yuugi was also buffed, and she has -so many- damage boost passives to start with, I think she can actually stand up to Flan's damage; and she can even take a hit.

Flan still beats everyone out if you're using some SDM members though. Plus her defense piercing along with being one of the heaviest nukers will still make her pretty valuable compared to other major nukes, along with Lavaeteinn.

[DarkAtma]

I am the only one that feels that the last item and the penultimate item should have its bonuses swapped?  :V makes more sense for the last item to be the most powerfull

EDIT

Or maybe those extra bonuses compensate for just having half the stat bonus of the penultimate item?, i mean, with that you no longer needed a ribbon item......

[Broken_luck]

I am the only one that feels that the last item and the penultimate item should have its bonuses swapped?  :V makes more sense for the last item to be the most powerfull

iirc, the first of the 30F boss' item drop was better than the final superboss' drop in LoT1

[Kirin no Sora]

Guys, I updated the Character Building page on the Wiki... slightly. Mainly, I added stuff about how to build Momiji, and I would like to ask what you guys think of what I put down so far.

[Serela]

I wouldn't list completely unworthy builds; why in the world is Marisa going to bother to be a MND tank with Guardian? It's not like she'd have anything to do or be that much better than the usual tanks. More or less, mind tank Marisa -is- for the "status inflicter" set. Okay, okay, actually, Guardian IS good because of the high-accuracy SHK with Sheer Force, but that's easy for people to not notice so I'd make it clear (And also merge it with status inflicter since yeah).

Offensive Keine needs a blurb that it's only worthwhile if you're using Mokou as a main tank for their synergy, because that's a decent build; otherwise MAG Keine is just sorta... dumb.

Komachi doesn't have an ATK build listed at all even though she has a stronger-than-usual cannon in Scythe that Chooses The Dead and her counter is strong too, and having massive HP is still nice in that build. Also, Healer Komachi is useful as a tank since the added regen helps to cover up the Guardian dmg reduction loss and healing is a more useful move to learn; so they're both competent subclasses.

Apart from that it's fine. Reimu is actually a sorta okay attacker because Fantasy Seal has a very high damage formula (to help out her lower base stats) and you still get the support on the side (this is the selling point, sorta, for using supports offensively; they're almost all viable attackers in some way or another), and Guardian isn't a bad choice at all, for capitalizing on Grand Incantation.

I've theorycrafted way too much on LoT2 so if you continue building that page you can expect a lot of feedback from me :V

[Kirin no Sora]

That's fine by me. I love theorycrafting, so this will be a treat for me. 

A question: What do you think about Monk as a subclass for Komachi? The Body Revitalization skill both buffs and heals her, and she can use Iron Mountain Charge effectively in an ATK build...

Also, I put in Herbalist as part of the set of subclasses that Keine can use as a Supporter, since she gains more options that way.

[Lollipop]

I just played my first hour of this game, and successfully beat that squirrel thing. All I can say is that this game is INTENSE. (and judging by the discussion going on, I've only seen the tip of the iceberg) I have no idea what half the crap in the game does, and all the stuff i do understand is still way too confusing  Also, what do the triangle x things mean? (i think i've seen them before in pokemon)

EDIT: This game is great even though i cant understand it

[Validon98]

I just played my first hour of this game, and successfully beat that squirrel thing. All I can say is that this game is INTENSE. (and judging by the discussion going on, I've only seen the tip of the iceberg) I have no idea what half the crap in the game does, and all the stuff i do understand is still way too confusing  Also, what do the triangle x things mean? (i think i've seen them before in pokemon)

EDIT: This game is great even though i cant understand it

There is an English patch (here, specifically), and also the triangle and x things refer to monster weaknesses and resistances.

I finally rebeat the game with Team 9, and slowly going through the postgame to prep for being able to actually touch the LoT2+ trial. I really forgot how hard a lot of the Formidable Shadows were when you first come across them. :V

[jester147]

Hello and welcome to the wonderful world of Labyrinth of Touhou. Beware of FOEs and enemies that are more than capable to party wipe your frontline. Your journey up is a long and arduous adventure.

Speaking of triangles and X, they're weaknesses. In pokemon, X is immunity, but not here. X means very weak. Resistances are depicted by circles and stars. One circle is resistant, Bullseye circle is very resistant, and star is extremely resistant/immune.

Hope this helps.

[Nyxnyx]

Is it just me or Youmu feels so weak? She's inferior to Kasen as a physical attacker in almost every single way no matter how I look at it. Only perk she has going is that her skills are physical and maybe the stat increase at low HP along with the regeneration, but other than that, her damage doesn't seem to come close with her high MP high delay skills.

[Serela]

Quite honestly I'd rate Youmu as one of the worst characters. The fact that she's still pretty usable is a good show of how there's not any -awful- characters in LoT2, but yeah. Her attack stat isn't that high and she doesn't have any particularly useful passives or particularly good moves... and for some reason most of them cost at least twice as much mp as an equivalent move would cost on others. Slash of Eternity is only as good as standard good-damage single target moves, -Kogasa- should easily meet or exceed it's damage. You can sorta deal with that and use Meikyo Shisui if you sub Guardian for Efficient Concentration, but... her moves aren't really good enough to warrant it, her atk/passives aren't good enough to make subs that exciting either, and with her low MND she's not a particularly bulky attacker either as looots of them surpass her durability easily.

She might catch up in postgame as you get better subclasses and her endless corridor skills, but probably isn't particularly worth it still; just... she'll be at a good enough point for ones who like her.

Spoiler:

10% free stat increase if Yuyuko is in your party of 12 and up to 110% dmg increase from HP not being max are good, mostly the latter, and stat scaling with three Boost skills and how main equips go and such can let you bring her MND up to less abysmal levels; it'll never be good, but it'll make her not fall over from magic. It's saying something when Desperation is likely her best passive, though. :S Combined with the <110% dmg boost she'd want to be lower HP in general.