Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F  (Read 269168 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #270 on: December 19, 2015, 01:02:50 PM »
At least the gamebreakers in the other games are more focused on outputting unbelievable numbers instead of taking single-digit damage from enemy attacks. The former is always somehow more satisfying (and quicker).
Immunize doesn't carry you through the entire game. All of the bonus bosses have means of dealing with Immunize (instant death, confusion, buff removal...) and attacks that deal significant amounts of damage through that. And most bosses have means of making things go wrong if your strategy is literally just Immunize and take little damage (Cernunos' instant death, Royalant's unlimited servants, Cotrangl's binds etc).

Immunize is indeed an overpowered skill due to the way its formula works (its multiplicative damage reduction is factored before the additive armor reduction), but people vastly overestimate its power and ignore that they have to do more than just use Immunize to win.

Meanwhile you can use the exact same braindead strategy in the Untold games and trivialize every single boss in the games.

I seriously have no idea of how somebody can think it's satisfying to completely ignore everything a boss does and kill it before it does anything relevant. That, to me, sounds as retarded as hacking a lv 2000 Flandre in the first floor and spamming Laevatein for the rest of the game "Big numbers :DDD"

Furthermore EOI is completely playable without a Immunize/a Medic. On the other hand the HP numbers in the Untold games (mostly in U2) are so ridiculously bloated in a futile attempt to "balance" the high damage output that you're capable in those games that you're just torturing yourself against boring damage sponges by trying to play any different.

tl;dr: there is an enormous difference between having a few imbalanced things and being badly designed.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 01:13:06 PM by Ryin »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #271 on: December 19, 2015, 01:05:29 PM »
I mean you can still do the exact same thing in Untold as you can in eo2/3/4, broken party setups aren't anything new. (And, honestly, if you add Defender to immunize in eo1 you take so little damage that there's very few times the additional things to deal with are actually enough of a problem to -really- care.) In -any- EO game it's a matter of "it's fun if you aren't looking up the broken setups (or theorycrafting your party hard enough to make one yourself)". (IMO EO1 is crazy boring either way though and 2 is only just into decently playable range, after that they're all basically fine even though each has a handful of problematic quirks)

I also think the EOU2 hp complaint is pretty silly since any non-awful party shouldn't take much longer to kill bosses than you would in any other game. My friend did a casual run with a meh-ish totally not broken party when it was still JP (so he barely even used non-same-class grimoires due to reading difficulties) and I don't recall the bosses taking more than 20 turns. Isn't that something everyone just complained about before US release because the HP counts were really high and they plugged their ears when people told them you generally shaved half off before the fight and they were ignoring you do way more damage than in EO2 even without breaking things? "BUT BUT ____ HAS LIKE 4X THE HP HE SHOULD" "Yeah that's because he has a gimmick that lets you do double damage -and- you shave a third off before the fight."
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 01:14:03 PM by Selery »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #272 on: December 19, 2015, 07:47:57 PM »
Just in case anyone's lost about what Immunize does in EO1: It's a party-wide buff that, at maximum level, does a flat 60% damage reduction to every single type of damage in the game for 14 TP (A level 20 naked medic has about 55ish TP), lasts five turns, and you can add another five by casting it again while it's active, up to a maximum of nine. This reduction is factored before damage reduction from armor defense boosts and other buffs, which makes the actual damage reduction considerably more than 60%. This damage reduction can also be Boosted, which increases the flat damage reduction to 85% in exchange for using your boost gauge (which naturally recovers upon taking normal actions in battle), and can last nine turns if you layer it on top of an initial non-boosted Immunize.

In short, with Immunize, you can turn any attack that would normally kill you two times over into something that's decently survivable, and turn an attack that's barely survivable into a mosquito bite. And double that for Boosted Immunize.

snip

As a general reply to your post, I think Immunize is the most terrible of EO series gamebreakers, for the following reasons:
-It trivializes the defensive portion of 90% of the FOE/boss fights in the game, especially if you pair it with a Troubadour who can regen TP every turn and/or a Protector with another (physical-only) defensive buff. Most of the remaining fights just require a bit of resistance equipment or status healing/reviving items or simply waiting statuses out and refreshing/applying it again.
-It requires a mere 19 skill points on a single character to unlock and max out, meaning you have access to it at level 17 - essentially from the second stratum onwards, potentially trivializing every major fight in the game after.
-It's entirely possible to accidentally break the game for yourself because it's so easy to do - you simply need to have one of the most natural classes as a party member, and think that a party-wide defensive buff sounds good to have. This is heavily unlike the gamebreaking x-turn-kill setups in other games which usually require very specific setups and/or lots of levels/skill points/top-tier equipment and/or painstaking farming for the necessary grimoire skills.
-The final bonus boss of postgame seems tuned assuming you have at least Immunize up at all times, if not boosted - pretty much every strategy I've seen requires it to keep from being overwhelmed by damage. (I would love to hear about/see a fight without an Immunize Medic) On the other hand, I've beaten the bonus bosses in pretty much all the other games using standard parties and none of the x-turn kill gamebreaking options.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 07:51:04 PM by Deranged »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #273 on: December 19, 2015, 08:44:16 PM »
lasts five turns, and you can add another five by casting it again while it's active, up to a maximum of nine.
You can't. In the first game you only refresh buffs back to their original maximum duration. You're thinking about Untold mechanics.
-especially if you pair it with a Troubadour who can regen TP every turn and/or a Protector with another (physical-only) defensive buff. Most of the remaining fights just require a bit of resistance equipment or status healing/reviving items or simply waiting statuses out and refreshing/applying it again.
Literal waste of turns and skill points that could have been used in the elemental songs. There isn't a single battle in the entire game that should be capable of exhausting your TP pool more than what is reasonable to heal with items (and the ones that you need items for are very late in the game, when the price for those is a non-issue). You're wasting a buff slot that could be used for something else for an effect you could achieve in a single item, if that. Practically the same goes for people using a Dark Ether spammer in EO III and thinking they're being clever. It's not mathematically worth it unless you have a row spamming the most expensive attack in the game. And even then it's barely worth anything.

EOI is also quite lacking in ailment resistant gear (the best ones anybody can equip are one that gives a 20% resist to ailments and one that gives a 20% resist to instant death). So no, you can't trivialize this part as easily as you claim and once again you're confusing later game mechanics.

Furthermore, ailments in EOI have a fixed duration of 5 turns, instead of the volatile duration introduced in EOIII. "Just waiting" a strong ailment out is a very poor choice.

-It requires a mere 19 skill points on a single character to unlock and max out, meaning you have access to it at level 17 - essentially from the second stratum onwards, potentially trivializing every major fight in the game after.
-It's entirely possible to accidentally break the game for yourself because it's so easy to do - you simply need to have one of the most natural classes as a party member, and think that a party-wide defensive buff sounds good to have. This is heavily unlike the gamebreaking x-turn-kill setups in other games which usually require very specific setups and/or lots of levels/skill points/top-tier equipment and/or painstaking farming for the necessary grimoire skills.
Three things:
- Immunize doesn't carry you through the entire game while the brain dead damage optimization strategies will.
- It's quite trivial to break the game in EOIV and the Untold games. You literally just need to do a bit of effort in damage optimization and that's it. Only Ur-Devil gives you some sort of challenge in thinking about damage optimization and even then it mostly comes to grinding the abomination that is the grimoire system. And even with this challenge, damage optimization is so easy that the first video in which Ur-Devil is killed without a quick kill team, did not come out until months after the game had already been released in the west.
- Perceivably accessible or not, EOI has a single broken ability. The Untold games are broken by design.

To make sure I'm being as clear as possible: I'm not stating that Immunize isn't broken against direct damage attacks. I'm saying that the game has more than that to kill you. Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing stopping you from trampling all over every boss with damage optimization in the Untold games.

-The final bonus boss of postgame seems tuned assuming you have at least Immunize up at all times, if not boosted - pretty much every strategy I've seen requires it to keep from being overwhelmed by damage. (I would love to hear about/see a fight without an Immunize Medic) On the other hand, I've beaten the bonus bosses in pretty much all the other games using standard parties and none of the x-turn kill gamebreaking options.
It's doable without both Medic and Protector. And the solution is as trivial to figure out as it gets. You can reduce its attack with a Hexer or a Protector's Front Guard/Defender (yes, I'm listing Front Guard because it is better) for the physical skills and use boosted songs for the elemental ones. If you choose to go with the songs, though, you'll have to deal with its berserk AI. Which is actually not too bad, especially if you take advantage of the elemental damage bonuses that you'll get from playing the songs. And dealing with the berserk AI isn't even too bad because of how few and far between the random turns are, considering the kind of team that is able to do it. In this example only one random turn happened

« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 12:27:02 AM by Ryin »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #274 on: December 20, 2015, 02:47:09 AM »
Quote
Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing stopping you from trampling all over every boss with damage optimization in the Untold games.
and in eo2, 3, and 4; again, this is nothing new. even their postgame superbosses

also Dark Ether is preeetty useful before lategame, where using lv10 skills takes most of your TP pool in a single cast (a lot of the classes have so little TP that you can only cast them a few times even in postgame; it's just easier to use a cheap skill over expensive amritas. and the damage increase from maxing is massive)

anyway isn't this a thlabyrinth thread? I mean we already have an etrian odyssey thread elsewhere on the forum
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 02:50:08 AM by Selery »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #275 on: December 20, 2015, 03:29:19 AM »
anyway isn't this a thlabyrinth thread? I mean we already have an etrian odyssey thread elsewhere on the forum

Absolutely right - apologies for the digression. I'll take this to PMs if you're still interested, Ryin.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #276 on: December 21, 2015, 07:39:56 PM »
Greetings, everyone. I was almost finish with the game when my main PC got hit with a virus. After moving the files to a different computer, the display looks like this: http://imgur.com/LQjGmBy. I cannot see each characters' name, skills, or any equipment. I was thinking it was a font problem so I download the fonts off my old computer to the new one but it didn't fix anything. Any help or advice would gladly be appreciated.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #277 on: December 22, 2015, 03:25:52 AM »
Are you in jp locale? That's usually a thing with japanese games. And yeah, it affects fonts used. ...usually they'll load a backup font, though...

...in other news, holy shit, I revisited the save from my first run just to mess with some stuff (still on 16f on run #2), and uh... I hadn't realized how silly Renko can get. She can easily have as much def/mnd as Rinno/Tenshi and a few times the HP count, or just have more max HP than your entire party combined and still have more def/mnd than a normal bulky attacker would. So then you sub healer for regen I guess? >.> (Or you can be "normal" and just go for double Rinnosuke's def/mnd?) Renko be my waifu

Also I'm debating whether it's worth switching Tenshi for Rinnosuke lategame if it means Iku loses 40% def/mnd in exchange for Rinnosuke being better than Tenshi. Byakuren obsoletes Tenshi's self-buffs but like, Iku's normal attack is savage and speedy, and that bulk is hella. (I -could- go for both but with Renko too and Byakuren out, uh... I don't need a million tanks and I'd only have 5 attackers at that point pfft)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 03:31:13 AM by Selery »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #278 on: December 22, 2015, 04:46:02 AM »
Got to maribel at reimu 105. explored 20f as much as I can prior to killing her, just have to grind a dozen or so levels then attack her. gonna do that another day though.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #279 on: December 23, 2015, 01:32:35 PM »
So, after plenty of skill levels in speed and reaching level ~80, 18F has finally become manageable.

... Now to grind until Level 100. Whyyy.

Thata no Guykoro

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #280 on: December 23, 2015, 10:56:12 PM »
Scrolling back to December 5th, google translate is telling me we might see the plus disk trial version get another release? I'd very much appreciate someone who actually knows it, but that's the best guess I have via machine.

So perhaps we will see more info, idk

(literally gonna be three years for plus disk)

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #281 on: December 24, 2015, 12:19:08 AM »
So, after plenty of skill levels in speed and reaching level ~80, 18F has finally become manageable.

... Now to grind until Level 100. Whyyy.

For toehoe laby 1 rinnosuke?
Ignore wiki level thing. 90s is fine foe him as long as you get past phase 1 without too many down.

I dont even know how you can be under 90 when you reach him unless you run away alot or arent exploring dungeons anyway. Unless you are measuring someone who levels slower than reimu. Reimu is kinda the standard character to state your level on.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #282 on: December 24, 2015, 10:14:00 AM »
For toehoe laby 1 rinnosuke?
Ignore wiki level thing. 90s is fine foe him as long as you get past phase 1 without too many down.

I dont even know how you can be under 90 when you reach him unless you run away alot or arent exploring dungeons anyway. Unless you are measuring someone who levels slower than reimu. Reimu is kinda the standard character to state your level on.

I know 90 is fine, but I don't wanna have to deal with random encounters again that absolutely murder my party like on 18F.  I fully explored every floor (except 8F because I'm so not bothering with that, just got all the events and I was done with that boring as hell floor) and rarely ran away. And 82 is where Reimu is at right now.


Edit:

Nailed it.

(Also gonna fight Rinnosuke very soon!)

« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 04:38:52 PM by Monothemeerp »

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #283 on: December 25, 2015, 06:02:48 PM »
19f trash actually can be easier than 18f d3pending on your group.

One thing you can notice right away is that most are slower than the relatively fast 18f trash. Even patchy can get the jump on most of em.

Par works more often too.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #284 on: December 25, 2015, 07:13:31 PM »
Aaaaand Rinnosuke down! That was a pretty fun fight. Elemental forms died really quickly though, I think I dealt +300k damage with one spell to one of them, not sure which one anymore.

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #285 on: December 25, 2015, 11:37:31 PM »
Aaaaand Rinnosuke down! That was a pretty fun fight. Elemental forms died really quickly though, I think I dealt +300k damage with one spell to one of them, not sure which one anymore.

Maste rsparking spirit mode probably does that if not more =P

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #286 on: December 26, 2015, 12:41:04 AM »
http://funkyimg.com/i/25NWt.png
Fight against Tenshi v2.0 F9 (Hard mod)

In my opinion, the most difficult battle in the game that would win.

http://funkyimg.com/i/25NWB.png
Wriggle - Toxicologist
Orin - Hexer
Mokou - I think Monk? (54tp?) Of course you can find the best use of this stone.
Yuugi - Warrior

Meiling+Kasen go into two first slots in the end of the first phase.
Ran + Sanae keep Tenshi is Wriggle throws poison, Orin/Hina do debuffs.
To Ran HP boost is needed (but I did not have it, no Attack debuff Tenshi - she one hit KO)
Once you off MP to heal - switch in Mokou (Tank) and Yugi/Iku.
Iku can do 5k damage, provided that Tenshi hanging least -40% of the mind. You can use it to Speed buff something to hang on Yuugi armor debuff (it still die without a chance) and reduce the amount of buffs on it.
Yuugi will do 0 damage if it does not have at least +50% Attack buff and Tenshi hanging Def buff. Bonus Last Fortess does wonders ... but impossible to get it first, but when you lose most of the characters - you'll be doing a 10k damage.
http://funkyimg.com/i/25NWs.png

Byakuren and Eiki withstand dance with a 90% chance (Do not lost the Ran and Mokou ahead of time)

Hina can immediately debuff any stat Tenshi to -50% (especially cool if you can reduce her speed)
Orin with Extra attacks and Hexer skills may have down sharply Tenshi Def/Mind to -50% and give HVY-status (the only useful status)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 01:27:40 AM by Nikkanoffun »

nav'

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #287 on: December 26, 2015, 09:01:03 AM »
Aaaaand Rinnosuke down! That was a pretty fun fight. Elemental forms died really quickly though, I think I dealt +300k damage with one spell to one of them, not sure which one anymore.
So at which level were you when fighting Rinnosuke? This reminds me of my own LoT1 run a long while ago: I was hoping to defeat the game without any deliberate grinding and it was going very well up until Rinnosuke. I reached him at Reimu Level 84 and got thrashed badly.
Рабинович глядит на плакат ?Ленин умер, но дело его живет!?
? уж лучше бы о он жил!

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #288 on: December 26, 2015, 10:00:34 AM »
So at which level were you when fighting Rinnosuke? This reminds me of my own LoT1 run a long while ago: I was hoping to defeat the game without any deliberate grinding and it was going very well up until Rinnosuke. I reached him at Reimu Level 84 and got thrashed badly.

He probably should at that level, I don't see how it's possible to be that low when you get to him unless you run alot or skipped alot of exploring. I'm consistently level 92-94ish every time without any grinding.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #289 on: December 26, 2015, 10:49:23 AM »
Maste rsparking spirit mode probably does that if not more =P
Right, that was it. Marisa had max buffs on her, too.

So at which level were you when fighting Rinnosuke? This reminds me of my own LoT1 run a long while ago: I was hoping to defeat the game without any deliberate grinding and it was going very well up until Rinnosuke. I reached him at Reimu Level 84 and got thrashed badly.


I fought him at Level 95. I can imagine fighting him at a lower level (like 90) would make the fight really close and a bit more luck-based. Pretty sure I only had like, only half of my party left at the end. Or even less, not certain.

He probably should at that level, I don't see how it's possible to be that low when you get to him unless you run alot or skipped alot of exploring. I'm consistently level 92-94ish every time without any grinding.

I mean I guess I did kind of skip 17F because the encounters just kept killing me so I kinda snapped, pfft. And I was kinda low level for the Yukari fight, I was like 75 or something. I really wonder how you can manage to be that high of a level upon reaching 18F/or rather finishing exploring it.

Anyway, 19F encounters are a lot easier. Only annoying things are Solar Demon Kings because of that graphical glitch and the fact that they have way too much HP, and the Truth-Seeing Eyes because they're sorceresses but better. (At least Suwako can oneshot them but I need to get her into the field quick enough for that first...)

---

Edit: 20F has been reached! The 19F bosses are pretty easy with the right frontline (... which is basically always Rinnosuke + someone who has high def/mind) EXP is nice, but the whole 0 TP deal for Rinnosuke makes it kinda tedious to level.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 01:18:55 PM by Monothemeerp »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #290 on: December 26, 2015, 01:18:50 PM »
Quote
Only annoying things are Solar Demon Kings because of that graphical glitch and the fact that they have way too much HP, and the Truth-Seeing Eyes because they're sorceresses but better
The reason you think they have too much HP/gfx glitching is likely because you don't realize what the dev did is layer like 3 of them ontop of eachother! O: So it's multiple enemies and multi-target attacks work well. (Since that's practically never done in a game, it's pretty understandable to not think of it)
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #291 on: December 26, 2015, 01:20:36 PM »
Yeah, I noticed that as well. Dunno why I called it a graphical glitch there >_>"
Also, it's gonna be a bit annoying to go back a few floors and farm a Blue Saber because I actually managed to get not even a single one the whole time.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #292 on: December 26, 2015, 02:33:00 PM »
The drop rate is abysmal, was there really not a single chest for it? o.o Maybe normally they're obtained from a 50%+ boss drop or something...
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #293 on: December 26, 2015, 03:01:46 PM »
I was hoping I'd get maybe one from all the 18F grinding (because Gold Knights are on that floor and they have the highest drop rate, 1%... which is still small as heck), but nope. And I've gotten all chests there are up to 20F, and not a single Blue Saber, no. Really annoying...

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #294 on: December 26, 2015, 03:15:55 PM »
Wiki says there's a chest with a blue saber on 15f.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #295 on: December 26, 2015, 03:43:11 PM »



... :V
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 03:45:35 PM by Monothemeerp »

Gesh86

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #296 on: December 26, 2015, 04:03:45 PM »


 :D. Maybe there's nothing there and the wiki is indeed wrong, but I'd check.

jester147

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #297 on: December 26, 2015, 04:32:57 PM »
That spot has nothing, you have cleared all the floor, no treasures.

Your only option is:
-Loot the Gold Knights, 1% is very small, but that's your only option if you want it that badly as the other method is more brutal rather than grinding those Gold Knights.
-Obtain it in 21F, which requires 3 stars, and the requirements without hunting for Blue Saber is rather long, as you need to grind in 20F and fight either the Bloodstained Seal bosses or the Ver. 2 bosses.

Good luck.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #298 on: December 26, 2015, 05:46:40 PM »


 :D. Maybe there's nothing there and the wiki is indeed wrong, but I'd check.

Eagle eye! .... But sadly, no dice. http://prntscr.com/9irisx Still nice to get a response from the glorious Gesh, though. :'D
Looks like my only option is Gold Knights after all. I'd rather not have to beat all Bloodstained Seal bosses or Ver. 2 before entering 21F. Thanks for the help, though!

nav'

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F
« Reply #299 on: December 26, 2015, 06:09:15 PM »
I mean I guess I did kind of skip 17F because the encounters just kept killing me so I kinda snapped, pfft.
Yeah, and it's not like that floor has anything interesting to keep the player's attention, it's just a huge timewaster with encounters you'd rather avoid. Guess that explains why we were both underleveled.
Рабинович глядит на плакат ?Ленин умер, но дело его живет!?
? уж лучше бы о он жил!