Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 15F

[RegalStar]

I spent some time grinding on 17F before heading onto 18F, which had WAAAAY easier to deal with encounters... too bad the drops and SKP suck ass. (I got another Blue Saber and Elendil while killing in 17F).

[Ghaleon]

frankly I think star of elindel is way better than anything from 18f.

[Ryin]

I rushed Nitori down switching characters when they took too much damage and leaving the front slot as a sacrifice.
Did the Iron Maze and tried to go for Tenshi before Eientei. My team has severe SP problems trying to keep her ailed, though, so I have to wait a bit more.
Eientei was pretty fun. https://youtu.be/Bd1rdA6VNQs

edit: 13f done *gasp*. by the end wriggle could survive a slash dive and a slash, but not 2 slash dives. Dat floor. ugh.

What kind of unrealistic standards do you even have for her? At the beginning of the floor, DEF Yuugi (with the highest physical bulk of the game) can't take two regular slashes if they both roll high damage.

[Monothemeerp]

So I was just making preparations for 9F Tenshi wondering who I'm gonna use as a tank...



Maintenance is glorious.

EDIT: Really fun Tenshi fight. My very first attempt was a lost one, so I decided to use Charge as a joke... and then Renko took about 400 damage from Sword of Hisou. So what I ended up doing was putting Nazrin as a Healer with full Speed Level up Bonuses and Gear to keep Renko healed (and also for her Divine+ damage skill), letting Renko tank all of the Sword of Hisou's while Monk Kasen whittles her HP away. Renko, Yuyuko and Nazrin could all survive her super attack and I had Chen dodge (and she did, both times).
I'm glad that Sword of Hisou will always attack the target with the highest buffs starting from the left instead of being random target with atleast 100% buffs.

I'll be interested in seeing how Kageshirou and Jaxter are gonna tackle 9F Tenshi. In my winning attempt, no one died, actually.

[Ghaleon]

What kind of unrealistic standards do you even have for her? At the beginning of the floor, DEF Yuugi (with the highest physical bulk of the game) can't take two regular slashes if they both roll high damage.

The ones you set for me... you were like Wriggle can take physical hits better than yuugi, mnd hits better than patchy, more hp than...mind blank.. death girl! Faster than an aya with chen's level! Stronger than enemy mode yuugi V3 using KoI3!

Ok maybe I exagerate slightly. I think you misunderstand though. I'm not complaining where wriggle left off on that floor, but I absolutely expected her to survive a single slash dive going into that floor =P Frankly it kinda surprised me how fast you go from being ko'd in a single dive to being able to take one and a half. That move is kinda like rinnosuke's composite nuke in that sense. new players see it for the first time unbuffed and think it's op nonsense, and then you put like one def buff on and it starts doing 0s... I KNOW the formula isn't as flimsy like that but it really felt like it doing that floor.

[Ryin]

The ones you set for me... you were like Wriggle can take physical hits better than yuugi, mnd hits better than patchy, more hp than...mind blank.. death girl! Faster than an aya with chen's level! Stronger than enemy mode yuugi V3 using KoI3!

:V she totally is
But in a more serious tone: she's slightly worse than Meiling at taking physical hits but with better MND. Her HP is lower but it's only an actual issue when you're taking Dual Funeral Washing Machines. But to make up for that she deals like 1/4 of a boss' HP with poison until the middle of the main game and still deals great damage (for a tank) all the way to ***WINNER***. Her speed is also interesting because it makes her bad for escorting hit-and-runners in and out but makes her fantastic to deal with emergency switches (and you can always just not invest in her speed that much if you want her to escort).
But yeah, that floor is a thing. Large groups that give a lot of exp. It's a strange floor in that sense.

[RegalStar]

I'm not complaining where wriggle left off on that floor, but I absolutely expected her to survive a single slash dive going into that floor =P Frankly it kinda surprised me how fast you go from being ko'd in a single dive to being able to take one and a half. That move is kinda like rinnosuke's composite nuke in that sense. new players see it for the first time unbuffed and think it's op nonsense, and then you put like one def buff on and it starts doing 0s... I KNOW the formula isn't as flimsy like that but it really felt like it doing that floor.

Slash Dive is actually kind of the opposite in that it isn't as affected by DEF so HP matters more to surviving it. (If I remember correctly its formula is 168%ATK - 56%DEF.) I remember that it was doing about 3k to Komachi and 2.2k or so to Meiling (who, by the way, also fell just a little short of being able to survive two Slash Dives in a row until a couple of warp points), so Wriggle's lower HP is kind of bad there.

In any case I'm more interested in seeing how she will fare against Flandre. I already said that my Keine got 1HKO'd by an opening Starbow Break, so I'd imagine Wriggle needs some heavy investment to be able to tank her.

[Ryin]

In any case I'm more interested in seeing how she will fare against Flandre. I already said that my Keine got 1HKO'd by an opening Starbow Break, so I'd imagine Wriggle needs some heavy investment to be able to tank her.

Only HP monsters can tank Starbow Breaks. If Wriggle is your only option you have to hope she doesn't use it (not hard since she's kind of a glass cannon boss who dies easily) or be overlevelled. She doesn't have problems tanking either Forbidden Fruit or Laevatein, though (with the proper accessories like everyone else, of course).

[Ghaleon]

yuyu defeated at reimu 61... she was being pretty mean too using SFN more than usual for me.. and insta-deathing my Ran who was one of my dedicated yuyu-tanks despite her having 32dth resist. blargh.

Orin down at reimu 62. very messy. Her cats walk really hurt, regardless of who they hit. Used to them being kinda only annoying if they hit a squishy in the back.

[RegalStar]

Down at Minoriko 95. Took two tries; first attempt Minoriko was unexpected sniped really early and the rest of the fight went down the drain; I'm surprised i even made it to the final form on that run. Second attempt went much smoother and I didn't lose anyone until the final form, which I took down despite somehow mistaking it for the mystic form (which I already killed, so me fail). I was able to realize it in time to apply a dose of 80% buffed Slash of Eternity right after he used World-shaking Military Rule though, so yay.

EDIT: Tried to see if I can speedkill 20F things with Spiriting Away. Nope. I guess I gotta go with the proper sequence this time.

[Ghaleon]

hill gigas and great stamp down at Reimu 66... didn't think I'd beat great stamp tbh since I don't have anyone with more than 5k health yet, and even with full def buffs and boss has full debuffs, huge earthquake can almost 1shot everyone, if not 1shot (cept wriggle who could take like 3).. I thought reimu would be able to survive one but no.. so wriggle lost her def buffer pretty much, So I just kinda suicide squad the boss each quake and had ran eat a quake instead of wriggle to last one extra hit. As for hill gigas, easy cuz I got 3 people who can par. But it got to move once at the very beginning, and decided to thousand hand khannon poor wriggle right away.. poor wriggle.

Edit: Yukari downded at reimu 73. I really screwed up skipping over the first djinn storm and kinda made myself barely trigger it.. But things were still going pretty smoth until phase 3 when she buffed herself up  again when reisen had too little mp to compensate, then used hyperactive flying thing to 1shot patchy and...someone... eiki I think, things were kinda falling into hell near the end so I just decided to kamikazee her and finished her off. I still had a nitori cannon coming up behind too so it was kinda close but not by the skin of my teeth close.

That said gold sorceresses proved to be nothing special again. Honestly looking at it objectively, not even by personal experience. I have no idea how people can be scared of gold sorceresses and not the next floor's spirit crystalization.. they significantly faster, have virtual mnd-immunity, have way more magic power (almost double!), and they don't cast silly weak spells like flame blast, icicle whatever... and they have double-rape-ray...which they just love using. Their hp is the same too, so it's not like physical parties can kill em easier, just equally easy (harder if you have a slower physical person, but lots of physical nukes tend to be fairly quick so meh)

[Monothemeerp]

AHAHAHAHHAHAHA



Very first one. And it was the Level 1 version of SFN, too. Hilarious. (Also, Renko actually survived a "True Ame-no-Murakumo's Slash". What a goddess.)

I don't think a lot of people can claim that they beat this guy without anyone dying, pfft.

[Spiffspoo]

AHAHAHAHHAHAHA



Very first one. And it was the Level 1 version of SFN, too. Hilarious. (Also, Renko actually survived a "True Ame-no-Murakumo's Slash". What a goddess.)

I don't think a lot of people can claim that they beat this guy without anyone dying, pfft.

Wow, that is probably one of the least likely things to happen. Renko will be OP for a while in the main game too.
I remember getting a Shako in S2 on nightmare difficulty, which had like a 10 times less chance of dropping than on hell.

[Ghaleon]

My opinion that maribel/winner are way better bosses than that zord just increased =/

[Ryin]

My opinion that maribel/winner are way better bosses than that zord just increased =/

That's not the final boss. It's the early encounter with him. I actually really like the design decision to make him "vulnerable" to instant death in that encounter and giving him drops for that. It's a silly hidden thing that doesn't really affect the game.
They still are, though.

Edit: finished 13F. Completely unremarkable. Losing a tank means absolutely nothing when that's all you can lose.

[RegalStar]

19F explored and killed all four subbosses. Rainbow Phoenix I tanked with 10k MND Yukari while switching in sacrifices to hit it with. Great Intellect failed at life. Genocider managed to Thousand Hand Kannon Minoriko before going down. Cosmic was speed debuffed and killed before its fourth turn, although it was kind of scary when Dual Colorful Light took off 65% of Meiling's health.

EDIT:



Crazy lucky fight; Mari didn't use Overflowing Unnatural Power even once after her initial one, or even use Djinn Storm/Hyperdimensional Flying Object much (just once each). I was also somewhat overlevelled going into the fight (Minoriko 137). Only lost Suwako to a Prayer of Supremacy sponsored triple decker, and didn't lose anyone else. So, yay \o/

Also, I was using Cheat Engine to monitor Mari's health and noticed that her HP actually starts with 103.5m, but it will turn to 2m when she fields her third summon. Now I was under the impression that she would passive regenerate HP until I take out her summons, but I noticed that in fact she wasn't. After taking out Igmaruji and Amnisieri, I decided to knock her around a bit with some single target spells and was able to take off around 500k before killing Toruastory (since it used Strengthen Jutsu at that point), and Mari didn't recover any of that damage. Looking at the database it looks like she will only restore her HP up to (number of enemies left on the field * 500k) whenever she takes a turn, so if that's true, one might actually be able to register up to 1m damage on her before killing all her minions and sending her into the last phase. I will try that out more when I fight her again to register stars and see how her HP behaves.

[Ghaleon]

how do you use cheat to monitor health? set it to what you know it starts as and subtract it by what you nuke it by until you 'catch it'? or is there like an address that simply shows you monster health for every encounter? I ask because I've never used a poison user before and I have wriggle soo... I don't intend to use it for any of the important fights, or I'll repeat a fight without using it, but I'd appreciate seeing how well poison works exactly.

[RegalStar]

The address is spontaneous. You have to either use a known initial value or catch it by hitting the enemy and finding values that got decreased by that much.

[Ghaleon]

The address is spontaneous. You have to either use a known initial value or catch it by hitting the enemy and finding values that got decreased by that much.

blah.

It's weird, I know a thing or two about programming, including the difference between a variable made on the stack, and one made on the heap, and nothing about pointers ever confused me, but CE's method of 'cathing' pointers makes me scratch my head every time.

I get the impression you may think 'I didn't use the pointer thing'. But my understanding is that if you DID, you could theoretically 'find' that hp variable without searching for it every time if you did, that the pointer would 'know' where it is each battle. grr.

edit: random armchair game design comment on touhou labyrinth. I don't know if 2 is guilty of this or not, but 1 is (and normally I compliment both but say where I think 1 is better)... but the game is kinda backwards (IMO) where early game gives you a good skill point to experience point ratio, not even counting how enemies drop items far more often (even if they are worth less, in PROPORTION, I imagine they are valued approximately the same, and simply drop more often).. but as you go further and further you find that the amount of exp they reward grows faster than the amount of skillpoints rewarded.. meaning that by being a noob and having to grind really early makes you stronger overall than needing to grind later on (unless it's at 27f with liliths).

I'm saying this not because I need to grind, but because I just realized I missed a flan event after I forgot about her completely and am backtracking to find it and am noticing a much better exp/skillpoint ratio. I've noticed it long ago but doing it again now just made me have to comment.

edit: k attempted flan half-assed ish 3 times at reimu 73.. can't be bothered. she can 1shot anyone with starbrow break, even with a hakurei barrier, even my tanks... slash dive can 1shot wriggle sometimes (depending on high or low), debuffs don't land reliably, even after 4 debuffs I get atk debuffed MAYBE once.. seems like a luck-based fight at this point with my setup. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I tried various approaches and don't see how I can do things in a stable manner.. believe it or not I haven't wiped once and I'm doing this over-level 3 times and was like eff it really early. actually.. with yukari I reset at the start once cuz she used flying insect nest as her first attack on my first attempt which 1shot patchy (in the front), but on a second attempt she quad barrier'd someone and THEN insect nest, but she could tank it after a buff (Even though it pierces pretty good). IIRC.. I recorded it anyway, something like that I think.

I should upload my recordings (did one for alice, yuugi, eintei, yukari...and a few others but I forget who herp) because my HD is getting full, but takes so many timeses, sigh.

[Monothemeerp]

I've tried picking up LoT1 again but it just doesn't click with me. I'm at Reimu 76, and 18F still makes me lose party members really easily, and I can never get enough fights to make the dive worth it in terms of EXP or exploration, and it's really annoying. I can't grind on 17F because 17F just wipes me and 16F doesn't give as much EXP as these floors do. I'm at a loss, honestly.

[Ghaleon]

I've tried picking up LoT1 again but it just doesn't click with me. I'm at Reimu 76, and 18F still makes me lose party members really easily, and I can never get enough fights to make the dive worth it in terms of EXP or exploration, and it's really annoying. I can't grind on 17F because 17F just wipes me and 16F doesn't give as much EXP as these floors do. I'm at a loss, honestly.

I'm sorry, I woudln't make you want to suffer thru anything in a game... the thing is everything should be fun really....

But that said, the only thing I can offer is for you to maybe consider that figuring out how to clean trash should be as 'worthy' to you as a boss? the thing that REALLY made me like LoT to begin with (before 2 existed) was how the 'trash' was as worthy a challenge as any rpg boss... Maybe not every encounter individually but, on average, when you want to explore a floor, attrition-style. THAT to me is part of the challenge/logic/fun/whatever.

If you tackle it thinking 'how do I do this, let's try THIS' instead of 'blah, what the carp am I supposed to do so I can proceed?!", I think you might like it more... if not, I got nothing, but I hope you can love it like I do! =)

[Ryin]

Looking at the database it looks like she will only restore her HP up to (number of enemies left on the field * 500k) whenever she takes a turn, so if that's true, one might actually be able to register up to 1m damage on her before killing all her minions and sending her into the last phase. I will try that out more when I fight her again to register stars and see how her HP behaves.

That would require you to deplete the entire 10 million HP padding she has before she summons the last minion. Good luck with that.
And by your wording I can't tell if you know this or not but you can kill her before her minions. It's harder to do so than to kill minions first, though. Both because she has high HP and because you don't want the minions to reach their special actions or even act that many times.

edit: random armchair game design comment on touhou labyrinth. I don't know if 2 is guilty of this or not, but 1 is (and normally I compliment both but say where I think 1 is better)... but the game is kinda backwards (IMO) where early game gives you a good skill point to experience point ratio, not even counting how enemies drop items far more often (even if they are worth less, in PROPORTION, I imagine they are valued approximately the same, and simply drop more often).. but as you go further and further you find that the amount of exp they reward grows faster than the amount of skillpoints rewarded.. meaning that by being a noob and having to grind really early makes you stronger overall than needing to grind later on (unless it's at 27f with liliths).

Exp necessary to level up grows a lot faster than skill point. Lilith floor is made so you can catch up on the levelling of any character you ignored through the rest of the game or recruited just now. The skillpoint "overlevel" you'll get from grinding Liliths is actually not much because at that point in the game, before fighting more important battles, you'll start getting "ultimate equipment", which has bonuses that overshadow that small overlevel. The design might seem weird at sight but it's very functional considering the numbers you need for those things.

I've tried picking up LoT1 again but it just doesn't click with me. I'm at Reimu 76, and 18F still makes me lose party members really easily, and I can never get enough fights to make the dive worth it in terms of EXP or exploration, and it's really annoying. I can't grind on 17F because 17F just wipes me and 16F doesn't give as much EXP as these floors do. I'm at a loss, honestly.

If you're having this kind of difficulty it's kind of hard to say what you're doing wrong with a description like that. Can you record a video of you trying to go through 18F? Or describe how a few encounters go (turn by turn) and give us some screenshots of important character equipment and skill point distribution?

[Ghaleon]

That would require you to deplete the entire 10 million HP padding she has before she summons the last minion. Good luck with that.
And by your wording I can't tell if you know this or not but you can kill her before her minions. It's harder to do so than to kill minions first, though. Both because she has high HP and because you don't want the minions to reach their special actions or even act that many times.
Exp necessary to level up grows a lot faster than skill point. Lilith floor is made so you can catch up on the levelling of any character you ignored through the rest of the game or recruited just now. The skillpoint "overlevel" you'll get from grinding Liliths is actually not much because at that point in the game, before fighting more important battles, you'll start getting "ultimate equipment", which has bonuses that overshadow that small overlevel. The design might seem weird at sight but it's very functional considering the numbers you need for those things.

is that a fact or are you theorizing thus? Because if I was the designer and I intentionally designed 28f to function as such, I wouldn't have made lilith's a requirement as such... sure they can perform their task as average, but why as a designer would you limit that function to one enemy unless it was one silly oversight/bug/mistake/whatever?

I also admit I have a habit of using quotes more often than your average shmoe for things, but the way you emphasize it for my reference to 27f lilith 'skill point overlevels'...makes me wonder... do you disagree that liliths provide an exceptionally high level of skillpoints? because I'd call you mad otherwise, I doubt you'd argue that! Itemization or not.


If you're having this kind of difficulty it's kind of hard to say what you're doing wrong with a description like that. Can you record a video of you trying to go through 18F? Or describe how a few encounters go (turn by turn) and give us some screenshots of important character equipment and skill point distribution?
[/quote]

[Ryin]

is that a fact or are you theorizing thus? Because if I was the designer and I intentionally designed 28f to function as such, I wouldn't have made lilith's a requirement as such... sure they can perform their task as average, but why as a designer would you limit that function to one enemy unless it was one silly oversight/bug/mistake/whatever?

It's an opinion based on my previous playthrough in which I used every single character as soon as they were recruited in the main game, changed almost my entire team for the post game, used all of the plus disk characters as soon as they were recruited and that was about the point in which people started falling behind the skill point levelling curve without specialized grinding. I didn't grind more than the usual for the rest of the game and I still had enough skill points for everyone.

I also admit I have a habit of using quotes more often than your average shmoe for things, but the way you emphasize it for my reference to 27f lilith 'skill point overlevels'...makes me wonder... do you disagree that liliths provide an exceptionally high level of skillpoints? because I'd call you mad otherwise, I doubt you'd argue that! Itemization or not.

It's not that they don't give you a ton of skill points. Disagreeing with that would be just ignoring numbers in your face lol
It's that if you grind on Liliths instead of 29F, you won't get -that- much more powerful because at that point your level and equipment make the effect of the extra library levels not too high. You -will- be stronger from grinding on Liliths. Just not much.

Edit: "but why as a designer would you limit that function to one enemy unless it was one silly oversight/bug/mistake/whatever?"
Metal Slimes. Except not obnoxious to beat.

[RegalStar]

That would require you to deplete the entire 10 million HP padding she has before she summons the last minion. Good luck with that.
And by your wording I can't tell if you know this or not but you can kill her before her minions. It's harder to do so than to kill minions first, though. Both because she has high HP and because you don't want the minions to reach their special actions or even act that many times.

Yeah I know that you can kill Maribel before minions. I did that once during boss rush (so my team was obviously overlevelled for the "real" fight), and even edited the wiki to include that strategy before someone eventually pointed out to me that at normal levels that doesn't work. It's what inspired me to do the health monitoring actually because the database's description was incomprehensible.

And from what I found out in this fight, 1) Mari starts with 100m HP padding, not 10m, and 2) the padding goes away as soon as she does her third summon (this is consistent with the database), and 3) she decidedly did NOT regenerate any HP before or after the third summon. The database, however, did list a regeneration mechanic (every turn she makes, her HP will be restored to number of enemies * 500k if it is lower), so I'm assuming that it actually comes into play during this phase when all three summons have been fielded and the player is expected to kill the summons.

[Ryin]

And from what I found out in this fight, 1) Mari starts with 100m HP padding, not 10m, and 2) the padding goes away as soon as she does her third summon (this is consistent with the database), and 3) she decidedly did NOT regenerate any HP before or after the third summon. The database, however, did list a regeneration mechanic (every turn she makes, her HP will be restored to number of enemies * 500k if it is lower), so I'm assuming that it actually comes into play during this phase when all three summons have been fielded and the player is expected to kill the summons.

It's probably because the padding is listed wrong but the regeneration mechanic is listed right. Since no way you're going to put her below 1 or 2 million with a 100 million HP pool, the mechanic is never triggered.
And no, it can't come in action in that phase because that would make her impossible to kill before the minions if you can't deplete ridiculous amounts of HP before she gets to act.

Edit: confirmed by using Cheat Engine and setting her HP to 1 with 2 minions out. When she summoned Igmaruji her HP went back to 2 million. After that I changed her HP to 1 again and it persisted even after she acted.
It's a rather useless mechanic lol
If you can depete that much HP, you can deal 2 million before she acts again.

Edit 2: The mechanic doesn't work AT ALL. I set her HP to 1 before she summoned Amnesieri and it persisted like that until she summoned Igmaruji.

[Ryin]

Double post. I hit quote instead of modify...

[RegalStar]

Ver2 bosses down (not including Maribel of course). I don't remember clearly what level I started with (somewhere around 155-160 I think), but I ended at Minoriko 171. Yuugi and Flandre killed the most characters (predictably) but I think Alice and Cirno actually gave me the most trouble. I didn't really have any problems with the others.

[Ghaleon]

Metal slimes

Maybe it's just me but that kind of enemy just seems different because they generally pose no threat to the player, they are often alone (or with others just like them), often have a unique appearence (often making it look non-threatening like they are), and are generally rare, like a bonus.

Lilith's don't feel like a bonus, they aren't really unique, for all intents and purposes, they seem like every other trash enemy.

I wonder how metal slimes became the standard for that type of enemy anyway. I'm pretty sure dragon warrior is one of the least played big-name RPGs (to english speaking audiences anyway), and it certainly isn't the only to have such an enemy with that function.

I'm currently on 18f btw, didn't make much progress today/last night cuz weekend. I like pachinko floor even though shub-niggruths are annoying as fuu.. Reimu's ALMOST as fast as them now after some spd investments into her skillpoints, so having a par that can get the jump on them other than mystia will be good.. though come to think of it  I don't know how much speed I'll need to make her par when their action bar isn't full. doh. I have a good party of trash cleaners, but marisa and ran are pretty useless against them, mystia and sakuya aren't as good as they could be since shub's are weak to every 'normal' element, but their nukes are non elemental, and patchy/kaggy are too slow. Nitori is kinda just behind reimu in the speed department so she should be able to contribute soon too.

Also, I haven't had much luck with monster drops since.. I dunno, 10f or something. I was really lucky with drops until then but I don't think I got anything juicy since but a blue saber, good thing blue sabers are quite good.

edit: I said it before.. I'll say it again.. whenever I complain about a bad luck streak in a game, the gaming gods hear me and do crazy shit like
http://i67.tinypic.com/awvo08.png

[jester147]

Hello people, how's the run going? :3

I just got playing again and continuing the "favorites" playthrough. Everything is fine, but as soon as I hit 10F, bam, my motivation to keep playing seems to deplete. Most trash can't be one-shotted by Aya and Marisa now, and not even Alice can clear some of them in one spell. And those top enemies can't be outsped by anything, wasting precious TP.

Besides that I'm trying to loot Machine God Lucifer in my original save for once before continuing the current playthrough. Finally got one, after so many resets. I then proceeded to loot Physical Reactor too, but it failed. How many resets do I need for this thing... And then there's the Regalia...

edit: I said it before.. I'll say it again.. whenever I complain about a bad luck streak in a game, the gaming gods hear me and do crazy shit like
http://i67.tinypic.com/awvo08.png

RNGeesus is the best. Enjoy those two Blue Sabers. :3

And about metal slimes. The definition amounts to "Rare enemies that can appear everywhere and insanely hard to kill, but is harmless. The reward is massive but they like to run away as the drawback." Liliths are not a metal slime, no. They just give a lot of Library Points, that's all. There's some RPGs where some enemies would give higher exp while being easier to fight too.