Author Topic: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE  (Read 94876 times)

Jq1790

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #630 on: November 25, 2015, 03:51:42 PM »
If you have RaDra, he basically dunks ARa in every way I'm pretty sure, right?

If you can match every color you get 20.25x vs ARa getting 25x, but then the additional conditions push it to 144x vs ARa's 100x, and RaDra has the advantage of TPAs to make him even STRONGER, effectively becoming 324x vs the still 100x.  It's terribly stupid, but...:whale dragon:
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Espadas

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #631 on: November 25, 2015, 03:54:51 PM »
I know very little about A.Ra and even less about that crime against PAD that is Ra Dragon but does leading with both suck so bad?

The biggest part of their multipliers have almost the same condition, the static part of Radra and the x2 of A.Ra affect both so aren't they viable as mixed leaders?

P.S. Thanks to the best single run of King Carnival ever I'm now literally one Dub-sapphilit away from A.Sakuya  :V
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 03:58:55 PM by Espadas »

Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #632 on: November 25, 2015, 04:01:39 PM »
ARa/RaDra mix doesnt work unless you have DKalis instead of LKalis

at which point you might as well go full RaDra

Jq1790

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #633 on: November 25, 2015, 04:01:53 PM »
I know very little about A.Ra and even less about that crime against PAD that is Ra Dragon but does leading with both suck so bad?

The biggest part of their multipliers have almost the same condition, the static part of Radra and the x2 of A.Ra affect both so aren't they viable as mixed leaders?

P.S. I'm literally one Dub-sapphilit away from A.Sakuya  :V
You get less of a base mult with raDra unless you activate his FULL LS though, so to deal the damage you want you have to play a stricter lead than ARa, but for less-than-worthy returns.

Wheras double ARa gives 25x(100x for active use), ARa/RaDra gives only 22.5(45)x for the same work.

Meanwhile double RaDra gives you 64x(actually 144x after static LS boosts), the same work only provides 60(120)x for ARa/RaDra.

So basically you called it: crime against PAD.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 04:07:59 PM by Jq1790 »
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commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #634 on: November 25, 2015, 04:16:05 PM »
The biggest advantage that I see Awoken Ra having is his compatibility with white Kali/Kalloween. I can make up for some of the prong deficit that ARa has by using subs with two prongs instead of one like black Kali has. Five Colored Alchemy creates less types of orbs than Orb Transformation does, which means a higher chance of getting four, seven, or eight white orbs.

For DRAgon users, how often do you pop a Kali active and get only three white orbs? I don't remember that happening often when I used black Kali, but it did happen occasionally.

I think ARa has a few tiny upsides over DRAgon, but mostly I'm feeling like the game is shitting on my one attempt to be a metagaming s-tier coolguy by immediately slapping me down with "lol at commandercool's shitty poverty version of what a real tryhard team looks like". Not a greeeat feeling.
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MatsuriSakuragi

Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #635 on: November 25, 2015, 04:19:10 PM »
As someone who uses ASaku, Ra who? ^^;

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #636 on: November 25, 2015, 04:21:45 PM »
Oh, is she just a strictly better version of him too? I admit I haven't looked that closely at her.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Jq1790

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #637 on: November 25, 2015, 04:27:21 PM »
Oh, is she just a strictly better version of him too? I admit I haven't looked that closely at her.
Usual Sakuya LGRB 25x, now with increasing power from 6c up to 100x at 10c, I believe.

I picture somethimg like LKali/Elia/LValk(or lvalk if one is fortunate enough to own her)/flex is probably pretty busted.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 04:29:22 PM by Jq1790 »
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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #638 on: November 25, 2015, 04:44:58 PM »
A.Ra's one advantage is his active. It's situational but in those specific situations it's really good (like vs Parvati+Shiva combo in the previous C10)

Other than that though yeah rip

Jq1790

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #639 on: November 25, 2015, 05:02:01 PM »
I suppose ARa's ability to use LKali could be more of a boon than one thinks, too, since she is light primary vs DKali being, well, -D-Kali.  The abandonment of ARa is a big problem though for reasons I already went inti, unless I'm wrong(not owning either of em I dunno if I know what I'm talking about, ehe)
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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #640 on: November 25, 2015, 05:05:06 PM »
Everyone is switching to Ra Dragon because everyone who ran A. Ra to begin with was probably a huge whale and already had a billion dkalis, and if you have that, then Ra Dragon is vastly superior, no contest.

EDIT: binds?? who cares!

« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 05:09:10 PM by OverlordChirei »

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #641 on: November 25, 2015, 05:13:59 PM »
NewZL is pretty cray cray.

+297 leads aside, that's three light TPAs.



I need to get Elia up and running for this stuff srsly. Is it even worth using Sandalphon at that point?

MatsuriSakuragi

Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #642 on: November 25, 2015, 05:32:22 PM »
Oh, is she just a strictly better version of him too? I admit I haven't looked that closely at her.

Not directly. They're actually very similar and I just prefer Sakuya a lot more.

Realistically, Sakuya is kind of what you'd get when you marry Ra and Anubis together-- a 25x low multiplier that's easier than Ra's and 100x high maximum multiplier that's more forgiving than Anubis' since it gives you in-between multipliers if you don't hit the 10combo.

Sakuya's easier to hit her 25x with, but Ra's easier to hit 100x with.  But at the same time, Ra is either 1x/4x/25x/100x while Sakuya can be anywhere in between 1x/4x/25x/36x/49x/64x/81x/100x. Lots of chances to do great damage. See what I'm saying?

ASaku benefits from having a lot of utility and a more flexible team structure-- she doesn't need specific types like Ra does for his max potential. Granted, you can do likewise with Ra, but it's difficult to use him to full effectiveness without having fast actives-- you won't be getting any more than 25x without them.

Meanwhile, Sakuya is much more of a damage spectrum rather than Ra's binary "YES BIG DAMAGE" or "NOT BIG DAMAGE". It's easier and less resource-dependent to get her base 25x, and it's not at all very difficult to start bumping up the damage to 36x and 49x at 6c and 7c if you're packing time extends. Hitting the 64/81/100x multipliers often require a little extra luck or planning, but they're not limited by having to use your actives to get there, which lets you be a bit more flexible overall.

Sakuya also comes with built in bind removal/bind heal awakenings, and while they may be a use of precious gravity, it's so much nicer to have than not have. It's already saved my ass so many times, and I love her for it. People complain that it's counterproductive for her to waste a gravity for bind removal, but I say it's extra utility that means I don't need to slot Ceres or BMeta in, leaving me an extra space for a different stronger or bulkier utility. She just covers more of the playing field overall that way.

Sakuya's also got the gravity, which can definitely compensate for her less guaranteed damage. You can also strategically use them to break resolve, too. Damage the boss a little with x25 and then use the actives to break them under their percentage point so you can go in for the kill without having to risk triggering their resolve attack with an "unlucky" 100x.

However, she's not without drawbacks compared to ARa-- ARa's got a lot more HP and that goes a long way-- and his active is great for punching down stubborn high def enemies that require large combos from Sakuya. The time extend from that is also golden. ARa's damage is much easier to be guaranteed of, too-- you either have the big multiplier or you don't, and how and when that happens is up to you. Sakuya can hit it more consistently with luck and skill and timing, and can get in-between multipliers that Ra can't, but you can never be 100% certain of your odds of getting the multiplier you're aiming for, since perfect 10 combo boards are not the most common things ever. But still, reaching 64x-81x multiplier is also very respectable damage as well.

Ultimately it's a preference thing since they both can do roughly the same thing, but have different support needs. Sakuya needs support in the HP/damage reduction department because chances are your team will be pretty squishy, especially if you're loaded down with Kalis as healers. Thankfully, you can use Izanami or Susano or Indra or a Golem, etc and be fairly well covered there. She also greatly benefits from time extends/extend actives. I use ATsukuyomi for that. But the result is a team that's overall bindproof and skillbindproof with very flexible playing styles and fairly good RCV to keep the health up.

Ra is a more solid structure and doesn't have the same flexibility, and needs bind remover support (the ideal being Isis, of course) as well as someone with fast and disposable actives (also Isis), but hitting his maximum multiplier takes a lot less luck, time extends (5 combo vs 10 combo, no contest), and is a lot less prone to error for that reason.

That said, they're both good subs for each other, too. Sakuya brings great utility to Ra, and Ra brings bulk and time extend, as well as a nice pushbutton kill for stupid stubborn high def enemies.

They're both great, but my preference strongly sits with Sakuya for her flexibility and better sub pool. I think the quintessential "Ideal" Ra team is better overall though if you have all the pieces, since it takes way less effort to hit those big numbers because having 3 Kalis and an Isis means you're pretty much covered on all counts.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 05:37:32 PM by Enoshimatsuri Junko »

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #643 on: November 25, 2015, 06:23:42 PM »
I have various comments about a lot of those responses that I'll get to when I'm not posting on my phone and can quote more easily. Until then, I have another question: Where does white Kali as a lead fit into all of this?

I have only a single Awoken Ra friend left, and he's not hypermax. Meanwhile I have like a dozen white Kali friends, most of them hypermax and many of them with whale shit* like rainbow resists or time extend latents. Is that because she has her own merits as a lead, or are the people still running her just doing it because they have nothing better? Kali is looking awful dated next to Sakuya lately, so am I overlooking something?

*I've noticed a trend among my IRL PAD friends (all of whom are on the casual side and ranked in the mid-200s) of aggressively buying latents. They have an attitude of "I'll never be able to afford anything big anyway so I might as well buy something I can use", so they all own handfuls of rainbow resists and time extend latents. So maybe expensive latent setups are not necessarily " whale shit", but maybe the opposite?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 06:29:16 PM by commandercool »
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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #644 on: November 25, 2015, 07:17:31 PM »
LKali is worse as a leader because her role is supposed to be as a sub. Also she's not an awoken so you can't really compare since she's much easier to get for midgame players

Also latents may be farmable but holy shit I spent all of my stamina + 2 ranks ups on farming and got no invades so using MP doesn't seem so unreasonable to me anymore lol

Although in the long run yes they are still probably screwing themselves over unless they plan on whaling a few packs
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 07:19:22 PM by Suikama »

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #645 on: November 25, 2015, 07:31:56 PM »
There was a brief window where Kali was considered a legit lead, and that was even before her buff. I agree that her place seems to be as a sub, but all of these Kali friends I've got, some of them being fairly high-ranked, were making me question if she has some kind of amazing build I just wasn't aware of.

As for farming latents, I'm up to three this event out of probably 35-40 runs. So not amazing, but not horrendously bad like last time.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #646 on: November 25, 2015, 07:37:19 PM »
Nah some people just don't like switching mains

Like I still have a bunch of +297 BL Isis on my list

Edible

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #647 on: November 25, 2015, 07:42:32 PM »
Batman Disruptor with a Zaerog8 friend lead may not be ideal, but oh man does it put out some hilarious fucking damage.

Thaws

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #648 on: November 25, 2015, 08:11:05 PM »
Raoh LS -> Attacker/Devil HP,ATK 1.5x, When connecting 4 orbs 2x, 5 orbs 2.5x, 6 orbs 3x.
Active (7 cd) -> Heart,Jammer,Poison -> Red, 1cd haste

Astaroth LS -> Healer/Devil HP,ATK increase (probably 1.3x), When connecting 6 orbs 3x.
Active (7cd) -> Red,Jammer,Poison -> Green, 4turn counter

what is balance

Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #649 on: November 25, 2015, 08:15:26 PM »
cute waifus are no match to the power of the FIST

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #650 on: November 25, 2015, 08:24:09 PM »
By that token, why are the Fist Of The North Star buffs massively larger than the Evangelion buffs? Why isn't Misato strictly better than comparable awoken gods, if we've decided that's part of collab golds now? Or Superman? Why is it only collabs I don't give a shit about that get the ridiculous buffs?
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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #651 on: November 25, 2015, 08:33:34 PM »
NewZL is pretty cray cray.

+297 leads aside, that's three light TPAs.



I need to get Elia up and running for this stuff srsly. Is it even worth using Sandalphon at that point?

Wow, have to see if I might use mine for my light team. x25 doesn't sound bad, I wonder how high the damage is with chibi valk

Espadas

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #652 on: November 25, 2015, 08:39:36 PM »
Why is it only collabs I don't give a shit about that get the ridiculous buffs?

As of this moment you officially don't give a shit about FF and AoT collabs.

 :V

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #653 on: November 25, 2015, 08:46:15 PM »
As of this moment you officially don't give a shit about FF and AoT collabs.

 :V

That's true, I really don't.

And as such I haven't really looked that closely at them, but their power level is noticeably lower than Dragon Ball and Fist Of The North Star, isn't it?
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Espadas

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #654 on: November 25, 2015, 10:05:39 PM »
Short answer: at the moment, yes.

FF have Cloud and his system, which is still quite viable. Sephiroth and Yuna are inferior, but all 3 still lack Uevos so i hope they will get good ones like FOTNS

AoT have Levi, which is a very good leader; Eren, that isn't bad for farming and is a red unbindable bind-clearer; Mikasa, that is very similar to A.Shiva, albeit weaker and with less choice of subs and Armin (silver egg), that is basically Phoenix Rider with different colors.
Levi and Eren already have Uevos, Mikasa don't.

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #655 on: November 25, 2015, 10:09:49 PM »
Alright, I've managed to get through floors eight and nine of Challenge Dungeon with just two stones so far. Both of them were on floor nine, and one of them was because I didn't read Nordis' ten million attacks correctly, brought Kalloween instead of black Kali, and got bound by him. Then again without her I probably wouldn't have been able to kill him in one shot when I did get unbound since she did like half the damage by herself, but anyway, two stones is not bad. Now the question is whether it's worth my time to do floor ten. Assuming I play flawlessly and don't have exceptionally bad luck at any point I can probably get by with three more stones. Five stones total for 90 +eggs is... Fine I guess. If I did a REM pull and a +90 Flampy popped out I would probably be pretty goddamn happy, but this will also have cost me 270 stamina. So assuming that my time isn't worth anything this isn't a great deal compared to farming boosted Ocean Of Heaven. But my time is worth something, and I suppose so is the experience of beating very hard dungeons, even if I do have to cheat with continues to do it. Might as well finish it up. Although I'm already envisioning myself fucking up terribly and ending up dumping like ten stones into this, because once I'm invested with a few I know sunk cost fallacy won't let me quit.

Everyone is switching to Ra Dragon because everyone who ran A. Ra to begin with was probably a huge whale and already had a billion dkalis, and if you have that, then Ra Dragon is vastly superior, no contest.

You really think so? Is Awoken Ra a whale lead? The way I see it he's relatively flexible aside from badly wanting two white Kalis. And of the people I know who play PAD IRL, every single one of them has pulled at least two white Kalis. If you play long enough and aren't unlucky you just naturally start to rack up duplicate special gods. His optimal team is pretty rough, granted, but I think you could totally get away with farmable subs past the Kalis. Technically you probably don't even need them, although he becomes extremely unreliable without them.

Thesis on Ra and Sakuya

That makes a lot of sense. Utility is extremely attractive, but if someone offered me the chance to trade out my heavily invested Ra team for a heavily invested Sakuya team right now based on what you said here I wouldn't do it. Ra is just very reliable, and playing with something less reliable sounds like a tradeoff I'm not willing to make, even if she is massively more flexible. But I can completely see why some people would want to make that tradeoff, which seems like good game design. Meanwhile Ra Dragon is just infinibetter, which reads to me as trashy game design that's below the standard that I expect from PAD.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
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  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #656 on: November 25, 2015, 10:11:23 PM »
Optimal Awoken Ra team has a lot of GFEs, but I suspect you could come up with a perfectly effective one for high-level descends with mostly farmable stuff and non-GFEs.

Edit: So no, I don't think he's a whale lead per se.  He has a pretty high skill cap which is partially abated by Kali presence, though.

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #657 on: November 25, 2015, 10:51:04 PM »
One relatively untapped part of Awoken Ra's mechanics is that he's very compatible with heartbreakers. I could see a low-REM Ra team involving Rose kicking some significant ass even without the prongs subtheme that Ra is sort of known for.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

commandercool

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Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #658 on: November 26, 2015, 04:15:35 AM »
God dammit I'm ready to try Challenge 10 but I don't have any Ra frieeeeeends!

I made that call to swap Izanami in for the black slot so that maybe I can take Goemon's preemptive, but I'm not even sure what level I'll be when I get to him so I don't know how much HP I'll even have.

Edit: Okay, found one by refreshing the unregistered friends over and over. And then I got to Athena and she used Storm Punisher on me four times in a row, I lost three stones and all of my actives, and then I gave up in frustration without even winning because I was so pissed off after the third time. This isn't fun, it's just the game cheating to bleed stones out of me.

Edit edit: Went in with a non-hyper Ra because I was so mad at this dungeon that I had to beat it at any cost, got horrific luck on every conceivable enemy attack, finished it having lost ten stones total today. Not worth it at all. Fuck me.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 04:56:19 AM by commandercool »
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Re: Puzzle and Final Fantasy Thread XXV: Throw your Gil at the SOMETHING ELSE
« Reply #659 on: November 26, 2015, 07:11:40 AM »
God dammit I'm ready to try Challenge 10 but I don't have any Ra frieeeeeends!

I made that call to swap Izanami in for the black slot so that maybe I can take Goemon's preemptive, but I'm not even sure what level I'll be when I get to him so I don't know how much HP I'll even have.

Edit: Okay, found one by refreshing the unregistered friends over and over. And then I got to Athena and she used Storm Punisher on me four times in a row, I lost three stones and all of my actives, and then I gave up in frustration without even winning because I was so pissed off after the third time. This isn't fun, it's just the game cheating to bleed stones out of me.

Edit edit: Went in with a non-hyper Ra because I was so mad at this dungeon that I had to beat it at any cost, got horrific luck on every conceivable enemy attack, finished it having lost ten stones total today. Not worth it at all. Fuck me.

cmon man you know better than this