Author Topic: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis  (Read 91233 times)

Berzul

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2011, 01:55:38 PM »
Notable.. However... Even with Marisa's bomb being potentially the strongest.. it's actually not pratcial at all due the slow. You will never be able to bomb and move towards the boss at the same time, meaning you wont get to "shotgun" the boss, unless you area already shotguning him... 

Also... interesting is that the deathtimer is much much longer if you sit right into boss. However.. it should be also tested how much you really get time from that, possibly double the amount?

Sapz

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 04:45:43 PM »
Awesome, thanks for this. Do you mind if I add this info to the shot data sticky (or you could post it yourself if you'd like)?

Also - does anyone know if shot data usually changes between the demo and the full release, even if it's only minor things?
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Garlyle

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2011, 04:53:40 PM »
Oh wow.

This is surprisingly close for once.  I'm surprised!

Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2011, 01:23:58 AM »
Hm, so Sanae's faster Trance refilling ability isn't strikingly different from everyone else's refilling rate. Interesting.

Just out of curiosity, do you have frame data for how long each character's bomb lasts? I know we can do relative comparisons, though having numbers would help.
A 50% increase in spirit gain most of the time is nothing to sneeze at.

My method for finding out durations of bombs doesn't work on UFO+, so I don't have those numbers. Someone with fraps or the like would be able to find that out.

Notable.. However... Even with Marisa's bomb being potentially the strongest.. it's actually not pratcial at all due the slow. You will never be able to bomb and move towards the boss at the same time, meaning you wont get to "shotgun" the boss, unless you area already shotguning him... 

Also... interesting is that the deathtimer is much much longer if you sit right into boss. However.. it should be also tested how much you really get time from that, possibly double the amount?
The shotgun part is from me copying from previous posts. Shotgun doesn't matter for MarisaF, which is what the value listed is for. She can get higher damage if she can get 3 of her 4 power 4 lasers to hit, but that only works at shotgun range and you said the reason why I didn't use that value.

I saw no difference in how fast the Trance gauge ticked down on a death Trance, regardless of where you were. It ticks down at 60/s. Any spirits you collect during a Trance don't actually increase your gauge at all.

Awesome, thanks for this. Do you mind if I add this info to the shot data sticky (or you could post it yourself if you'd like)?

Also - does anyone know if shot data usually changes between the demo and the full release, even if it's only minor things?
Go for it, but it's just demo data, just like my UFO demo thread on the old forum.  I wouldn't be able to put it right after the other data posts anyway.

If you want I can give you the UFO demo data too, but it looks like someone else already put in data from another source.

UFO was the only game I've done demo data for, and I didn't do full game data for it, so I wouldn't know if it changed or not. It wouldn't surprise me if some did/will though.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:30:33 AM by Mefidex »

Critz

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2012, 05:11:15 PM »
Is there any data about TD hitbox and speed available? In the UFO strategy section of thwiki, Reimu, Sanae and Marisa are described as slowest, moderate and fastest, as well as smallest hitbox (2x2), moderate hitbox (3x3) and biggest hitbox (3.5x3.5) respectively (same with grazing area). It would be really useful if someone could confirm if that is true in TD as well and what are Youmu's characteristics.
And does Reimu still have the longest deathbomb window?

Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2012, 12:56:02 AM »
UFO Sanae-B: additional info on focused vs unfocused shot.  Some of this is counter-intuitive.

Except at a power level of one (PL1), the unfocused shot will kill stage enemies more quickly than the focused shot.  At PL2-4, the only possible utility of the focused shot during a stage (excluding the midboss) would be in firing at a distance at a concentrated group of non-popcorn enemies; depending upon PL, the splash damage from the frogs might kill the group more quickly.  The focused shot is still the better distance shot against bosses, although the unfocused shot (for PL2-4) would likely be better whenever the boss is moving quickly.  It's also important to note the severe drop-off in power (for PL2-4) when not properly aligned beneath the boss (I'll estimate the wiggle room to be 15 pixels on either side, but I'll also be damned if that's accurate).

Here's why.  Except at PL1, the unfocused base shot is more powerful than the focused base shot (base shot = no frogs).  Additionally, because there is a delay between the impact of a frog and the point at which all damage from a frog has been dealt, it takes several seconds for the frog-damage of the focused shot to catch up and make the focused shot more powerful than the unfocused shot.  For PL1: the shot data supports the theory that it's the base shot, not the frog-stream, that has an increased power when focused.  Compared to the focused shot at PL2-4, the focused shot at PL1 is more effective against stage enemies and less effective against bosses, which is the same thing that happens with the unfocused base shot.  It's also worth noting that the unfocused base shot does the same amount of damage at all PLs.  It's impossible to determine this for the focused base shot because the number of frog-streams changes, because some frog-streams do more damage than others, and (to a lesser extent) because total frog damage is at least somewhat dependent upon impact location.

Below are the three experiments that back up that info.

The first test was on stage three's opening fairy: a robust, non-popcorn enemy.  I'm fairly certain that there aren't any stage enemies with either a larger health bar or a larger hitbox, so the results here should apply to all stage enemies.  Keeping the same, initial vertical position, I positioned myself directly under the fairy's entrance point and held down the fire button.  [Originally I did this with stage practice (for PL2) and with continues (for PL4), and I was later able to extend this to PL1 and PL3 with a power-level hack*.]  For PL2-4, the unfocused shot killed the fairy more quickly than the focused shot.  I tried this at a slight offset, which made it so an additional frog was impacting the fairy**, but there wasn't any noticeable difference.  The fairy only got off five center bullets when I used the unfocused shot (for PL1-4), and it got off its full volley of eight when I used the focused shot (for PL2-4).  Against the focused shot at PL1, however, the fairy only got off three bullets.  So, the effectiveness of shots against single stage enemies goes like this: PL1 focused > PL1-4 unfocused > PL2-4 focused (roughly similar).

The second test was a crude way to verify the results of PL1 and to ensure that there weren't any shenanigans with the power-level hack.  After the stage name appears on the first stage, a fairy appears from the top-left side of the screen.  Without running the hack program, I killed the fairy once while unfocused and once while focused.  Watching the replays, the fairy survived longer - it made it farther down the screen - against the unfocused shot (at PL1).  So the focused shot was definitely more powerful at PL1.

The third test was against Ichirin's midboss spell card at each power level, using an invincibility hack* (and, later, the power-level hack).  With only one (slight) exception, the focused shot resulted in a quicker capture time at all power levels.  The unfocused shot had a consistent capture time at all power levels of exactly 19.94 seconds.  I tested the focused shot in two places: directly beneath the boss and slightly offset.  Note that there isn't an offset at PL1 because the frog is in the center of the shot.

Focused capture times (PL#... centered # frogs, centered capture time [in seconds] - offset # frogs, offset capture time [in seconds]):
4... 4, 12.9 - 3, 17.2
3... 3, 12.9 - 2, 18.3
2... 2, 13.4 - 1, 20.5
1... 1, 14.5 - 1, 14.5
[unfocused: 19.96 seconds]
These are averages of two attempts.  Largest differences between similar tests: .5 seconds for offset focused and .3 seconds for centered focused (and 0 seconds for unfocused).  The differences were usually half of those values.  I ran a third test for the largest difference in both centered and offset, and each third value fell between the appropriate, existing values.  The ostensible explanation for the differences is that there's a random element in determining the placement of each frog's splashes, and the variability would be further exaggerated by an imprecise horizontal offset (I just made sure the right number of things were hitting, so it's very possible that I was a few pixels off between attempts and that this slightly affected the results).  The focused capture times roughly align with the previously given data table on distance shot power.

Side note: I'm not going to test the other shot types.  For some time I've had the feeling that S-B killed enemies more quickly when unfocused (and now I know when and why), but I've never had this feeling with other shot-types, so I don't have a reason to test the others.

*thanks due to SupremeBogus for hooking me up with this.
**number of frogs that impacted the fairy for PL2,PL2,PL4: 0,1,2 when centered; 1,2,3 when offset.

edit: incorporated updates stemming from being able to use Bogus' power-level hack; most notable update is the power-level-one nonsense. edit2: made slightly less wordy. edit3 (dec): clearer explanation of power-level-one nonsense.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:37:54 PM by K.B. »
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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2012, 01:46:12 AM »
thanks due to SupremeBogus for hooking me up with this.
look at what you made me do you jerk

Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2013, 05:26:57 PM »
Excuse me,I'm a Chinese touhou player and I want to share some experience and data(shot/bomb data,hitbox of bullets and stable points.etc) at the forum.
When I did the research,I used and arranged data from this post and the Japanese Wiki(of course I indicated).
I want to ask if I can share the data here.
Though translating those things need lots of time,I want to share them to help more players clear the games.

CyberAngel

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2014, 12:45:45 PM »
For the record, rsy's shottype data is here. It's done differently and has some pretty interesting finds. Also includes EoSD and DDC.

...Linking it here mainly so that I don't have to start a mining operation next time I need it :P

Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2014, 09:33:19 AM »
For the record, rsy's shottype data is here. It's done differently and has some pretty interesting finds. Also includes EoSD and DDC.

...Linking it here mainly so that I don't have to start a mining operation next time I need it :P

Oh I have forgotten this completely!
Data of EoSD have a big mistake.Hp value of bosses are mistaken for 1/6 more !
I will fix it at once.

All spellcard hp values are found out. I will add those data to my thread too.

Bug fix of this thread:

1.(PCB)Hp value of Lily White in  stage 4 is 13000(nonspell).
2.(SA)Stage 6's final card is a 6500hp 140s spellcard that changes forms at 5000  3000 and 1500 hp.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 10:10:11 AM by rsy_type1 »

RegalStar

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2016, 03:56:22 AM »
Border Team 10/10
Yukari's homing shot on crack, Reimu hitbox, 1 second counterbombing, fairly strong counterbombs for both characters... is there anything that this team doesn't have? Well I guess strong familiar destruction abilities, but that only matters in like two cards in 6A, and Reimu takes no damage from colliding with them anyways. Well I guess it also doesn't score as well, but the difference is marginal enough that only dedicated scoreplay people would care anyways.

Magic Team 5/10
The tiny range really bites this team, but Malice Cannon and Master/Final Spark makes this team still playable. It destroys familiars like nothing else and completely trivializes Astronomical Entombing, but sadly not much else. Overall it's easily the worst of the four teams.

Scarlet Team 7/10
Remilia's focused speed is too fast and her shot is a bit gimmicky, but it's not as bad as Youmu's. The main problem with this team is that Sakuya's shot is just not really good and can hardly kill familiars, and overall this team just really have any sort of meaningful advantage beyond Remilia's bomb on non-spells.

Netherworld Team 9/10
In a vacuum this team is really good; Youmu's shot is gimmicky but at least it's strong, and Yuyuko is nice and easy to use with good spread and enough forward fire to be of use, plus Youmu's bomb is almost Master Spark tier strong and excellent for systematically skipping cards you don't want to face. Unfortunately Border Team is just too broken, and this shottype falls into second best... but it's still strong, and almost as easy to clear the game with.

moozooh

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2016, 03:04:41 PM »
Border Team 10/10
is there anything that this team doesn't have?
Movement speed and shot power. Aside from popcorn enemies, you're barely able to kill anything with homing projectiles before it times out or leaves the screen, and you can't always catch up. This team is pretty amazing for defensive play, but trying to score with it, or even to plain speedkill bosses, is a massive pain.

It also doesn't help that, due to delayed shot effects and a significant penalty for familiar kills, it can be a pain to keep the gauge >80% during the parts where you want it to.

Realistically, Netherworld team is the most balanced one. It's very powerful, easy to score with, has long enough counterbomb window, can cover the whole screen from almost any position, and doesn't have to fight Reimu in stage 4. Requires somewhat more skill to use compared to Border team but the extra bit of effort pays off very nicely for both defense and offense.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:09:27 PM by moozooh »
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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2016, 11:02:57 PM »
is there a character ranking list that i can see somewhere? some of the data is not easy for me to understand.

Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2016, 02:46:50 AM »
is there a character ranking list that i can see somewhere? some of the data is not easy for me to understand.

We had a thread a few months ago, you can give it a read to see if it's what you're looking for.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19213.msg1232095.html#msg1232095

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2016, 11:18:23 AM »
We had a thread a few months ago, you can give it a read to see if it's what you're looking for.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19213.msg1232095.html#msg1232095

Thanks this is just what I was looking for!