Topic: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis  (Read 83825 times)

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Mefidex's TH07-TH11 + TH13 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« on: April 24, 2009, 05:03:31 pm »
This information was compiled by Mefidex on the old boards.  By request, I am archiving that information in this thread.

PERFECT CHERRY BLOSSOM
Character power comparison
Format is m:ss/m:ss/m:ss, values are the times it takes to complete the card, starting from when I start shooting. The 3 cards the times are from are Stage 6 Youmu midboss's card Six Realms Sword "Ageless Obsession", Yuyuko's first card Losing Hometown "Lost Soul's Village", and Yuyuko's second card Deadly Dance "Law of Mortality". The 3 cards were chosen because the bosses do not move in any of them. Youmu in general has a larger hitbox than most, and she is in the middle of the screen for the first card. Yuyuko is at the top of the screen without her fan in the second card, while she is at the top with her fan in the third. The hp values of the cards are 1500, 2100, and 3000 respectively.

All tests were done while invincible and directly under the boss (no horizontal movement from the start of the stage).

UF is not focused, F is focused. Far means at the bottom of the screen, while Close means being close enough that all of the character's shots are hitting (within reason). On Yuyu's second card, Close means all shots are hitting Yuyu herself, not the fan. Use the Far value for both Yuyu and fan hits. If the character does not have a Close value listed, it means their shots are focused enough that the difference between Close and Far is negligible.

Since Youmu is in the middle and has a large hitbox, some character types will have all shots hitting even at Far range, so those will be marked with n:nn, and the time can be taken from the Close version.

0:14/0:18/0:20 ReimuA UF Far
0:11/0:16/0:22 ReimuA UF Close
n:nn/0:23/0:24 ReimuA F Far
0:10/0:14/0:22 ReimuA F Close

0:12/0:19/0:22 ReimuB UF Far
0:06/0:09/0:12 ReimuB UF Close
n:nn/0:13/0:19 ReimuB F Far
0:08/0:10/0:15 ReimuB F Close

0:08/0:11/0:15 MarisaA UF Far
0:07/0:10/0:14 MarisaA UF Close
0:07/0:11/0:14 MarisaA F

0:14/0:19/0:20 MarisaB UF Far
0:11/0:14/0:19 MarisaB UF Close
0:08/0:11/0:12 MarisaB F

0:42/0:55/0:39 SakuyaA UF Far (*1)
0:14/0:20/0:28 SakuyaA UF Close
0:10/0:14/0:20 SakuyaA F

0:10/0:15/0:18 SakuyaB UF Far
0:10/0:14/0:16 SakuyaB UF Close
0:08/0:11/0:14 SakuyaB F


Ordered by Power (not Close)
0:07/0:11/0:14 MarisaA F
0:08/0:11/0:12 MarisaB F
0:08/0:11/0:14 SakuyaB F
0:08/0:11/0:15 MarisaA UF
n:nn/0:13/0:19 ReimuB F Far
0:10/0:15/0:18 SakuyaB UF Far
0:10/0:14/0:20 SakuyaA F
0:12/0:19/0:22 ReimuB UF Far
0:14/0:18/0:20 ReimuA UF Far
0:14/0:19/0:20 MarisaB UF Far
n:nn/0:23/0:24 ReimuA F Far
0:42/0:55/0:39 SakuyaA UF Far (*1)

Ordered by Power (all, roughly)
0:06/0:09/0:12 ReimuB UF Close
0:07/0:10/0:14 MarisaA UF Close
0:07/0:11/0:14 MarisaA F
0:08/0:11/0:12 MarisaB F
0:08/0:11/0:14 SakuyaB F
0:08/0:10/0:15 ReimuB F Close
0:08/0:11/0:15 MarisaA UF
n:nn/0:13/0:19 ReimuB F Far
0:10/0:14/0:16 SakuyaB UF Close
0:10/0:15/0:18 SakuyaB UF Far
0:10/0:14/0:20 SakuyaA F
0:10/0:14/0:22 ReimuA F Close
0:11/0:14/0:19 MarisaB UF Close
0:11/0:16/0:22 ReimuA UF Close
0:12/0:19/0:22 ReimuB UF Far
0:14/0:18/0:20 ReimuA UF Far
0:14/0:19/0:20 MarisaB UF Far
0:14/0:20/0:28 SakuyaA UF Close
n:nn/0:23/0:24 ReimuA F Far
0:42/0:55/0:39 SakuyaA UF Far (*1)


Notes
(*1) SakuyaA UF Far doesn't deal enough damage to finish this card in time (37 secs for the card, 5 secs of which have armor), so the value is extrapolated from taking 21secs to get her to half health.

At long range, ReimuA does more damage when she's unfocused than when she's focused. However when she focuses, more of her damage goes into the homing part of her attack. If hitting with only the homing part, focused is about 80% stronger than unfocused.

If you get all 5 of ReimuB UF's streams of shots to hit along with her needles, she does the most damage out of all shot types. It's not the most convenient thing to get working though.

For MarisaA UF's shots, the values given are for when 1 or 2 christmas trees per set miss on the target, which tends to happen both Far and Close, unless the target's hitbox is particularly wide (Letty).

MarisaB's laser will hit both Yuyuko and her fan when it's out, dealing extra damage and lowering the time to take down those non/cards by a fair bit.

Most of SakuyaB UF's shot damage comes from the blue shots in the center and the bit of pink around it. You can see this from the relatively small difference in times between SakuyaB UF Far and Close. SakuyaB F's shot splits into an aimable pink component and a fixed straight firing blue component. The damage split is about 60% Pink/40% Blue.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:50:42 am by DNM »

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2009, 05:03:55 pm »
PERFECT CHERRY BLOSSOM
Bomb Data
Format is Duration, Damage. Damage will often be rounded off unless it consistently gives one specific value. Duration of bombs is how long you're invincible in frames, assuming the game is running at 60 frames per second. Frame values should be accurate within 3 frames. In general, you will still have some invincibility left after the bomb finishes its screen clearing. You can see it by the shrinking red circle around you. When it shrinks down to nothing, your invincibility has run out.

These damage values are for enemy spellcards only.

Everyone except MarisaB can fire during their bombs. During unfocused bombs, shots do 50% of their normal damage. During focused bombs, shots do 25% of their normal damage.

ReimuA
191, 130-280 Fantasy Seal -Spread-
347, 330-460 Fantasy Seal -Concentrate-

ReimuB
184, 480-840 Evil Sealing Circle
237, 1323 Duplex Barrier

MarisaA
237, 165-995 Stardust Reverie
296, 325-380 Milky Way

MarisaB
286, 420-3588 Non-Directional Laser
376, 2295 Master Spark

SakuyaA
195, 80-1365 Indiscriminate
279, 790-815 Killer Doll

SakuyaB
246, 32 Perfect Square
406, 0-300 Private Square

Notes
ReimuA's bombs are both fairly weak, despite how -Concentrate- looks.

ReimuB's ESC does maximum damage if the enemy is in the center of the cross when the bomb starts. If they start on one of the arms, it'll tend to do about 570 damage.
When Duplex Barrier is near finishing, there is a static square in place. Enemies only take damage if they are on this square. If they are on it through out its entire duration, they take the full 1323 damage. Even though it rotates a bit in the beginning, that part doesn't do damage, it only clears bullets. The area that the square rotates through does clear bullets until near the end though.

MarisaA's Stardust Reverie only does maximum damage if you're pretty much on top of the target when you fire it. Otherwise, you get drastically less damage.

MarisaB's NDL is the strongest bomb in all the Touhou games, numberwise. The max damage can only be obtained if you start the bomb ontop of the enemy. However, you can get enough to clear most cards by simply bombing then moving ontop of them. Do note that the rate of damage is fastest at the end of the card, near when the invincibility runs out. Make sure to get off of them before invincibility disappears, as it's right about when the lasers disappear too. The bomb does enough damage to one shot pretty much every bombable card in the game except for Yuyuko's last non survival card. Just make sure you're bombing when they don't have armor or invincibility.
Spark will do the same amount of damage no matter which part of the beam you hit them with, as long as you are hitting them the whole time.

SakuyaA's Indiscriminate can reach up to 1365 by being pretty much at bodyslam range when you fire it. Firing it at about a body's height away will get 500-900 damage, and then it drops massively the farther away you get from there.

SakuyaB's Perfect Square just does 32 damage to most or all of the screen, nothing special.
The only part of Private Square that does damage is the square itself. If it starts ontop of them and stays for the entire duration of the bomb, it will do 300 damage. Otherwise, it will be less depending on how long it stays on them.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2009, 05:04:36 pm »
PERFECT CHERRY BLOSSOM
Random stuff
About 2/3s of the damage dealt to Yuyuko's fan is also dealt to her. MarisaB can use this with her lasers to get extra damage if she's already hitting Yuyuko.

Bombs do not affect the fan, so bomb damage is the same whether she has it out or not.

The Prismrivers each take damage from bombs, so if the bomb's projectiles don't disappear immediately on hit, they can do up to 3x damage during the non/cards when all 3 Prismrivers are out. The obvious bombs to use this with are Spark and Duplex Barrier, though all of ReimuB's and MarisaA's bombs work as well.

Spellcard hp ranges from 1200-3000, with Yuyu's last nonsurvival card having 6000.

Noncards have notably larger hp than cards, from 10000-30000. Your shots do about 8-10x the damage you'd do cards, while your bombs only do 2-4x, so bombs aren't particularly good at taking out noncards.

The death fairy of stage 4 has 3600 hp and takes damage like a noncard, but is invincible until the ovalish white shots have rotated about 90 degrees.

The HP values of spellcards are as follows (midboss:boss boss boss etc):

Stage 1
1200:1700 2000

Stage 2
2100:1500 1500 1400

Stage 3
1200:2000 2000 2400 2000

Stage 4
none: 2450 (2100 2100 2100) 2800 2400

Stage 5
1500:2000 2000 2400 2000

Stage 6
1500:2100 3000 3000 2200 6000 [1]

Extra
2000 1580:
2600 2400 2000 2800 1400 2700 2700 3000 [3000] 8000

Phantasm
2000 1000:
2600 1700 2400 2800 1400 2700 2700 2000 [3000] 8000

[] means survival card

Each Prismriver sister has the same hp for their individual cards.

Extra's final card is an 8000hp card that adds another wave of shots at 7000, 5500, 3000, 2000, and 1000 hp. If the timer ever reaches 30s, it will immediately jump to the final form (all the waves of shots), in addition to having a faster spin and shot speed.

Phantasm's final card is an 8000hp card that adds another wave of shots at 7000, 6000, 4000, 3000, and 1500 hp. If the timer ever reaches 30s, it will immediately jump to a special final form (all the waves of shots + a wave of aimed butterflies), in addition to having a faster spin and shot speed.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2009, 05:06:09 pm »
IMPERISHABLE NIGHT
Character power comparison
Format is m:ss/m:ss. The first value is the time to take out card No 204, Hourai Doll. The second time is for card No 101, Wave Sign "Mind Shaker (Red Eyes Hypnosis)". They are measured from when I start shooting, to when the card dies. Shooting starts after the boss's invincibility and armor wear off. Both cards were chosen due to the boss sitting still and for the minimal familiars. Reisen's card has no familiars, but Mokou's has 2 spiraling inwards. Thus there is a bit of splash damage from Marisa, Malice, and Sakuya in the time, but not enough to make any appreciable difference (except for Sakuya Far).

Tests were done while invincible and sitting directly under the boss when applicable (I didn't move horizontally after the card started in spell practice).

Hourai Doll has 6000 hp, Mind Shaker has 2200 hp.

Far means at the bottom of the screen, while Close means being close enough that all of the character's shots are hitting (within reason). If the character does not have a Close/Far, it means their shots are focused enough that the difference between Close and Far is negligible.

0:35/0:13 Reimu - Close
N/A /0:22 Reimu - Far (*1)
N/A /0:42 Reimu - Homing only (*2)
0:31/0:11 Yukari
N/A /0:31 Yukari - Ran only

0:30/0:11 Marisa - Close
0:36/0:13 Marisa - Far (*3)
0:37/0:14 Alice
0:20/0:08 Malice - Close
0:24/0:09 Malice - Far (*3)

0:38/0:14 Sakuya - Sweet Spot
0:50/0:19 Sakuya - Close
0:50/0:19 Sakuya - Med
1:23/0:31 Sakuya - Far (*4)
0:27/0:10 Remilia (*5)
0:48/0:18 Remilia - Servant Fliers only (*5)
0:48/0:18 Remilia - Remilia only

0:24/0:10 Youmu - Both hitting
0:41/0:15 Youmu - Youmu only
0:50/0:19 Youmu - Myon only
0:25/0:10 Yuyuko - Point Blank (*5)
0:37/0:14 Yuyuko - 3 streams hitting
0:48/0:18 Yuyuko - 2 streams hitting
1:11/0:27 Yuyuko - 1 stream hitting


Ordered by power (long range only)
0:24/0:09 Malice - Far (*3)
0:24/0:10 Youmu - Both hitting
0:27/0:10 Remilia (*3)
0:31/0:11 Yukari
0:36/0:13 Marisa - Far (*3)
0:37/0:14 Alice
0:41/0:15 Youmu - Youmu only
0:48/0:18 Yuyuko - 2 streams hitting
0:48/0:18 Remilia - Servant Fliers only (*3)
0:48/0:18 Remilia - Remilia only
0:50/0:19 Sakuya - Med
0:50/0:19 Youmu - Myon only
N/A /0:22 Reimu - Far (*1)
1:11/0:27 Yuyuko - 1 stream hitting
N/A /0:31 Yukari - Ran only
1:23/0:31 Sakuya - Far (*2)
N/A /0:42 Reimu - Homing only (*1)


Ordered by power (all)
0:20/0:08 Malice - Close
0:24/0:09 Malice - Far (*3)
0:24/0:10 Youmu - Both hitting
0:25/0:10 Yuyuko - Point Blank (*5)
0:27/0:10 Remilia (*3)
0:30/0:11 Marisa - Close
0:31/0:11 Yukari
0:35/0:13 Reimu - Close
0:36/0:13 Marisa - Far (*3)
0:37/0:14 Alice
0:37/0:14 Yuyuko - 3 streams hitting
0:38/0:14 Sakuya - Sweet Spot
0:41/0:15 Youmu - Youmu only
0:48/0:18 Yuyuko - 2 streams hitting
0:48/0:18 Remilia - Servant Fliers only (*3)
0:48/0:18 Remilia - Remilia only
0:50/0:19 Sakuya - Close
0:50/0:19 Sakuya - Med
0:50/0:19 Youmu - Myon only
N/A /0:22 Reimu - Far (*1)
1:11/0:27 Yuyuko - 1 stream hitting
N/A /0:31 Yukari - Ran only
1:23/0:31 Sakuya - Far (*2)
N/A /0:42 Reimu - Homing only (*1)


Notes
(*1) Reimu Far only has her middle amulet stream hitting along with the homing shots
(*2) Reimu's homing amulets are too weak to finish off Reisen's card in time (that card has 40 seconds after armor wears off), so the 0:42 is extrapolated from it taking 0:21 to take 1100 hp off the card (half).
(*3) The outer streams of Marisa's shots will only hit at about half screen or less. The rest of her shots will hit even at fullscreen.
(*4) On card 204, Sakuya Far did about 2400 damage to the familiars, equating to 1200 to the boss. The actual time was 1:10, the 1:23 is calculated as if the familiars weren't there.
(*5) Due to the rotation of Remilia's Servant Fliers and Yuyuko's Deadly Butterfly familiars, some of the outer shots will miss every rotation.

Reimu Far, homing only, and Yukari Ran only do not have times for card 204 because they time out.

For the Malice cannon (tapping shift repeatedly with Magic team) test, I tried to maximize Malice cannon damage by focusing just enough to always keep the laser out, getting as many Marisa shots in as possible.

Sakuya has an annoyingly inconsistent shot damage. She fires 7 streams of knives at max power. Close is with all 7 hitting, Med is with 5/7 hitting, and Far is with 3/7 hitting. Point blanking with all 7 streams of knives does the same damage as hitting with 5/7 streams farther back.
She seems to have a certain distance where her shot does 30% more damage than usual. The distance has 5/7 streams hitting, and it's a little before all 7 streams will hit. Getting this close is usually not viable on most cards, it's difficult to keep it with the boss's movement, and it's hard to tell if you're even in the sweet spot or not.

For Yuyuko's data, 3 streams is with the center and the 2 next to it, 2 streams is the center and one of the ones next to it, and 1 stream is the center stream. 3 streams requires about halfscreen, while 2 and 1 can be done at fullscreen.

Conclusions
With the Border team, if you're not able to fire directly on the boss, getting a lock on with Ran is stronger than just having Reimu's homing amulets hit.

It's probably not worth trying to get Sakuya's sweet spot damage.

Remilia and her familiars do about the same damage (her familiars are slightly stronger, but the misses due to rotation make them just about even).

At long range, Yuyuko's shots are fairly weak, but it's not too hard to get 2 streams to hit, as you can just be slightly off center from the boss.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2009, 05:06:33 pm »
IMPERISHABLE NIGHT
Bomb Data
Bomb damage will often be rounded off, due to the random nature of some bombs. When I say deathbomb, I mean you were the other character, then pulled off a deathbomb leading to this char's deathbomb (ie Reimu's deathbomb data is if you were focused as Yukari, got hit, then used Reimu's Fantasy Seal -Blink-)

If it's not mentioned, then the character cannot shoot normally during their Bombs or Deathbombs.  For characters that can, they will do 25% of their normal damage with their shots until the bomb is over (invincibility wears off).

Reimu
800-1530 Bomb - Depending on how the orbs hit
1570-1960 Deathbomb
2500-2700 Deathbomb - Near point blank
Can shoot during Bomb and Deathbomb

Yukari
392-580 Bomb - Enemy is outside the border
720-1300 Bomb - Enemy is on the border
392 Bomb - Enemy is inside the border
1200-1300 Deathbomb - Enemy is outside the border
1700-1800 Deathbomb - Enemy is on the border
392 Deathbomb - Enemy is inside the border
Can shoot during Bomb and Deathbomb

Marisa
1575 Bomb - Main beam
445 Bomb - Fringe
1834 Deathbomb - Main beam
524 Deathbomb - Fringe

Alice
450-504 Bomb
420-504 Deathbomb

Sakuya
768 Bomb
1500 Deathbomb
Can shoot during Bomb and Deathbomb

Remilia
0 Bomb - Not shooting
300-400 Bomb - Shooting, 1 stream hitting
700-900 Bomb - Shooting, ontop of enemy
0 Deathbomb - Not shooting
400-500 Deathbomb - Shooting, 1 stream hitting
1000-1200 Deathbomb - Shooting, ontop of enemy
Different properties depending on whether shooting or not

Youmu
1456 Bomb - Centered
1260 Bomb - Off-center
700 Bomb - Fringe
1260-1288 Deathbomb - Anywhere not fringe
952 Deathbomb - Fringe

Yuyuko
450 Bomb - Ontop of enemy
660-1300 Bomb - Varies depending on distance
600 Bomb - Fullscreen
2190 Deathbomb - Fullscreen
2600-3300 Deathbomb - Varies depending on distance
Can shoot during Bomb and Deathbomb

Notes
When Reimu uses her deathbomb, she spreads a circle of orbs around her (fixed). If these hit the enemy, they add a fair bit to the damage.

Yukari's bomb does maximum damage if the enemy is ontop of the border (the boxes) when it hits. It will do damage if they're inside or outside the border, but it does have a range. If you're far enough away, the bomb will miss and do 0 damage. The effect range is fairly large though, you're only really going to miss if the boss is off center and you're in the corner on the other side.

Marisa's sparks look like a giant beam (though it actually consists of 3 smaller ones) and some lighter beams around it. If the enemy is on the edge of the giant beam (basically, on the line separating the main beam from nonmain beam) or only in the lighter beams outside, they will take fringe damage. If they're inside the giant beam (and not on the edge), they take full damage.

Isn't it sad, Alice?

Remilia's bomb on its own will do no damage (and make a small cross). If you hold down shoot while the bomb is active, you will fire a stream of red in the 4 cardinal directions in the shape of a cross. These deal the actual damage. If you get ontop of an enemy and shoot, that will give you maximum damage for this bomb.
Remi's bomb does the most damage compared to everyone else's against noncards. I'm guessing this is due to the spellcard armor damage scaling working on 4 sources of damage rather than 1.


Youmu's bomb does maximum damage when you're directly under the boss. You have about a 2-3 hitbox width to work with. Anywhere outside of that, and not at the edge of the slashes, it will do off-center damage. If you only hit with one of the slashes at the edges, it will do fringe damage. Her deathbomb does not have a centered damage from what I can tell. It's wider than her normal bomb, so it's harder to get fringe damage. Anywhere not fringe, will be normal damage.

Yuyuko's bomb and deathbomb both have varying damage depending on how far away you are from the enemy when you use it. The maximum damage for both is about 2 character heights below the enemy.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2009, 05:07:10 pm »
IMPERISHABLE NIGHT
Random stuff
When a familiar takes damage, the owner of the familiar also takes half of that damage. (ie you deal 100 damage to one of Mokou's familiars, she takes 50 from it as well)

About 60-65% of the damage dealt to Mokou's Wings and Yuyuko's Fan is also dealt to the owner. The exception is Sakuya with her weird shots. Mokou/Yuyuko take full damage from Sakuya shots on the Wings/Fan.

Bombs do not affect Mokou's wings (during her last few noncards). Bomb damage is the same whether she has them out or not. Your normal shots will still hit and do their reduced damage though.

Hourai Doll has a wing hitbox during Extra, but not during spellcard practice.

Marisa's Magic Missile explosions will damage Eirin during Hourai Elixir. But you won't do enough damage with it to end the card early, so there isn't much point. (If you're hitting her the entire time with the explosions [which is probably incredibly hard or impossible without cheating], she'll have 290 hp left out of 6000 when the card times out)

Spellcards generally have from 1500-2500 hp, with a few that have 3000. FinalA's last card is 6000.

Noncards have notably more hp than cards, around 10000-20000 depending on which one. However, your shots deal about 7x normal damage, and your bombs do 3-5x damage, depending on the bomb.

Remi's bomb does a massive amount of damage to noncards if you're directly ontop of them and firing, almost 10000 damage. The next most damaging bomb is Youmu's at around 4500, and then Reimu/Marisa at around 4000.

The HP values of spellcards are as follows (midboss:boss boss boss etc):

Stage 1
1300:1500 1800 <1600>

Stage 2
1500:1950 2000 2100 <1900>

Stage 3
2100:1700 2000 1900 2400 <1800>

Stage 4A (Reimu)
2000 2000:2000 2000 2700 <400>

Stage 4B (Marisa)
2300 2400:2500 2000 2500 <2500>

Stage 5
none:2200 2200 3000 3200 <1700>

Stage 6 FinalA
1600:2200 2200 2200 2200 6000 <[6000]>

Stage 6 FinalB
1900:2200 2500 2500 2500 2500 <[6000]> <[6000]> <[6000]> <[6000]> <[6000]>

Extra
1900 1900 1900:
2200 2200 2200 2500 2500 3000 3000 2500 [6000] 6000 <[6000]>

Last Words
3300 3300 4800
3500 4000 4000
4000 4400 4000
[6000] [10000] 3300
3300 6000 4000
5000 [4000]

[] means survival card
<> means last spell

Stage 6B's final spellcard is a 2500hp 90s card that has armor (takes so little damage it might as well be invincible) until 48s. The familiars however do not have armor and can be slain to decrease the number of shots fired (the outer 2 sets have more hp than the inner ones).

Extra's final spellcard is a 6000hp 90s card that gains additional waves at 71s and 56s.

Marisa's Last Word (the 10000 hp "survival card") takes damage normally, but you have so little time to hit her it might as well be a survival card.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2009, 05:08:05 pm »
MOUNTAIN OF FAITH
Character power comparison
Below is the time it takes to kill Kanako's final card, on Lunatic, (while Invincible), and (usually) sitting right below her. That card has the highest hp in the normal game, so it will exaggerate differences in time.

Format is m:ss
0:55 ReimuA
0:41 ReimuB
0:34 ReimuC close
0:46 ReimuC med
1:08 ReimuC far
0:46 MarisaA
0:46 MarisaB
0:15 MarisaBugged
0:36 MarisaC 3 frostthrowers
0:40 MarisaC 2 frostthrowers

Ordered by power
0:15 MarisaBugged
0:34 ReimuC close
0:36 MarisaC 3 frostthrowers
0:40 MarisaC 2 frostthrowers
0:41 ReimuB
0:46 ReimuC med
0:46 MarisaA
0:46 MarisaB
0:55 ReimuA
1:08 ReimuC far

Notes
MarisaBugged is MarisaB with the L3 laser glitch. 

All ReimuC times were focused. In that state (with all options), she fires 6 streams of amulets. Close is when all 6 are hitting, med is when 4 are hitting, and far is when 2 are hitting. At L4, ReimuC far focused is stronger than unfocused, so damagewise, there isn't much reason to unfocus with ReimuC.

MarisaC usually can only get 2 frostthrowers on a boss, but if you get it just right (or just get lucky), you can get 3 to hit. The 2 frostthrower times were done with the center 2 options.

MarisaA's time was done with all 4 options directly ontop of Marisa.

Even though ReimuC close has the highest attack power, you won't be able to use it very often, and especially not on Kanako's last card. At medium range, it's equivalent to MarisaB/ReimuB, and at long range, it's the weakest overall. MarisaC probably has the highest damage overall if you can drop your options on bosses and use proper tap-focusing to keep them in place while dodging. It also helps for stages too.


Other stuff:
Marisa's Bomb will do 680 damage if it never overlaps with the boss (ie you use it in the top right corner). If it's overlapping pretty much the whole time, it'll do around 1100. Reimu's values are 650/830, but the circle is bigger.

When you die, you release a deathwave. This wave will do 30-132 damage, depending on how close you are to the target. You'll only get 132 if you're basically ontop of their sprite.

Most cards have around 2000-3000 hp, except for Kanako's last, which has 8200.

Noncards have a lot more hp than cards, often in the 10000+ range. However, you do about 5.2x damage to them. You don't finish noncards by getting them to 0 hp, when they hit the hp of the card after it, the noncard will end and the card will start (ie a 11500 hp noncard is followed by a 2500 hp spellcard. When you drain the noncard to 2500, the card will begin).

There is no difference between L5 and L4 in terms of firepower.

Damage values for shots are generally for tapping the fire key once. Things like lasers stay out for a while, so their damage over time will not be as high as actual fired shots. Most values are close to accurate, maybe with a +-1 margin of error.

ReimuA (at L4), her homing shots do 16, while her normal shot does 26, for a total of 42. At L3/2/1/0, it's 12-24/8-30/4-30/0-36, for a total of 36/38/34/36. Yes, she sometimes gets weaker when she gets more options, but more of her damage comes from the homing part.

ReimuB's (at L4) needles all do 6 damage each, focused or unfocused, and her shot does 24, totaling 60. At lower levels, it takes 2 unfocused needles to match up to 1 focused needle.

ReimuC (at L4) focused point blank (all 6 streams hitting) does 72, highest legit in the game. 54 for med, and 36 for far. L3 and 4 damage far away is higher when focused, even if you can only get 2 streams to hit. L1 and 2, if you can only get 1 out of the 3/5 focused streams to hit, you'll do more damage unfocused. At L0, even though focusing changes your shot color, the damage is the same.

MarisaA's star shots themselves are incredibly weak, about 1 damage per star. Their main damage comes from the explosion (which does splash and hit multiple enemies), which adds up to about 18 damage per option.

MarisaB's L3 center laser alone focused does about 9 damage. Unfocused, it does about 140, hence MarisaBugged.

MarisaC's unfocused frost bolts fired from her options do 1 damage, compared to 36 from your normal shot, so don't rely on the frost bolts much. Her outer frostthrowers (far left and far right) do 6 damage each, while the inner ones do 12 (same while focused or unfocused).


The HP values of spellcards are as follows (midboss:boss boss boss etc):

Stage 1
1650:2200 2200

Stage 2
2300:2700 2700 2700

Stage 3
2300:2300 2100 2300

Stage 4
none:2500 2500 [1] 2300

Stage 5
2900:2400 2400 2400 3000

S6
none:2500 2500 2900 3200 8200

Extra
2300 2300 2300:
2800 3600 2800 3600 3500 3500 4500 [10000] [10000] 10000

[] means survival card

Extra's final card is a 10000hp 160s card that increases its firing rate (means less time between waves) at 8000, 5500, 3500, and 1700 hp. If the timer reaches 20s, then the firing rate will automatically jump to a special speed, which is faster than even the 1700hp form.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2009, 05:09:26 pm »
SUBTERRANEAN ANIMISM
Character power comparison

Format is seconds for card1/seconds for card2, values are the times it takes to complete the card, starting from when I start shooting. The 2 cards are stage 6 Orin's card, Youkai "Blazing Wheel" and Utsuho's first card, Atomic Fire "Uncontainable Nuclear Reaction". Times were also taken from her third card Blazing Star "Ten Evil Stars", but since it has the same amount of hp as her first card, the times were generally the same and thus not listed (Utsuho is farther up during this card than her first, but there's only one case where it makes any real difference, and that's with Aya F Far. The time for this card is listed in ()). The cards were chosen because the boss does not move in them. The hp values of the cards are 2000 and 3000.

Times are rounded to the nearest .5 second.

All tests were done while invincible and directly under (or above/ontop of) the boss (no horizontal movement from the start of the stage).

UF is unfocused, F is focused. Far means at the bottom of the screen, while Close means being close enough that all of the character's shots are hitting (within reason). Med will vary depending on the shot, see notes for it. If the character does not have a Close value listed, it means their shots are focused enough that the difference between Close and Far is negligible (and half the SA shot types have no spread).

All shots are at max (4 or 8) power unless otherwise specified. Primary shots refer to your character's shot at 0 power, amulets for Reimu and mini christmas trees for Marisa. Patch Fire consists of red forward firing shots, Water has blue wide spread shots, Wood uses green 45 degree angled shots, Metal fires yellow horizontal shots, and Earth shoots brown shots backwards.

12.0/18.0 Yukari F
19.0/28.0 Yukari UF

17.5/25.5 Suika F
17.0/25.0 Suika UF (*1)

17.5/23.0/(26.0) Aya F Far
14.5/22.0 Aya F Close
12.0/18.0 Aya F Ontop (*2)
15.5/23.0 Aya UF Med (*3)
14.5/22.0 Aya UF Close

12.5/18.0 Alice UF Far (*4)
10.5/15.0 Alice UF Close
15.0/23.0 Alice F Far (*5)

17.0/25.0 Patch Fire

18.0/26.0 Patch Water Med (*6)

21.0/32.0 Patch Wood Diag only (*7)
11.0/17.0 Patch Wood Top only (*8)
13.0/19.5 Patch Wood All (*9)
  9.0/13.0 Patch Wood 3 Power All (*10)

29.0/46.0 Patch Metal Side (*11)
12.5/19.0 Patch Metal Top (*12)
17.0/26.0 Patch Metal Bottom (*13)

14.0/21.0 Patch Earth (*14)
11.0/17.0 Patch Earth Sweetspot (*15)
10.5/15.5 Patch Earth All (*16)

15.0/22.0 Nitori F
16.0/24.0 Nitori UF (*17)

23.5/34.0 Any char, 0 power (*18)


Ordered by Power (forward shots only, not close)
12.0/18.0 Yukari F
12.5/18.0 Alice UF Far (*4)
15.0/22.0 Nitori F
15.0/23.0 Alice F Far (*5)
16.0/24.0 Nitori UF (*17)
17.0/25.0 Patch Fire
17.0/25.0 Suika UF (*1)
17.5/23.0/(26.0) Aya F Far
17.5/25.5 Suika F
18.0/26.0 Patch Water Med (*6)
19.0/28.0 Yukari UF
21.0/32.0 Patch Wood Diag only (*7)
23.5/34.0 Any char, 0 power (*18)


Ordered by Power (all)
  9.0/13.0 Patch Wood 3 Power All (*10)
10.5/15.0 Alice UF Close
10.5/15.5 Patch Earth All (*16)
11.0/17.0 Patch Earth Sweetspot (*15)
11.0/17.0 Patch Wood Top only (*8)
12.0/18.0 Yukari F
12.0/18.0 Aya F Ontop (*2)
12.5/18.0 Alice UF Far (*4)
12.5/19.0 Patch Metal Top (*12)
13.0/19.5 Patch Wood All
14.0/21.0 Patch Earth
14.5/22.0 Aya UF Close
14.5/22.0 Aya F Close
15.0/22.0 Nitori F
15.0/23.0 Alice F Far (*5)
15.5/23.0 Aya UF Med (*3)
16.0/24.0 Nitori UF (*17)
17.0/25.0 Patch Fire
17.0/26.0 Patch Metal Bottom (*13)
17.0/25.0 Suika UF (*1)
17.5/23.0/(26.0) Aya F Far
17.5/25.5 Suika F
18.0/26.0 Patch Water Med (*6)
19.0/28.0 Yukari UF
21.0/32.0 Patch Wood Diag only (*7)
23.5/34.0 Any char, 0 power (*18)
29.0/46.0 Patch Metal Side (*11)


Notes
(*1) Suika UF - Suika UF damage is slightly higher than her F damage when shooting from directly under the boss. I hypothesize that this is because her wisps deal constant damage while they're over a target, and the slightly diagonal path of the outside ones keeps them on for just a litte bit longer.

(*2) Aya F Ontop - All options are hitting in addition to the primary shots. This can be achieved by inching into the boss from the side, though it's not very feasible normally. However during a bomb, this should generally be position used. The time is primarily to show a comparison of its strength to other positions.

(*3) Aya UF Med - At the range where the two main streams from the options are hitting the boss, but the outer random shots are not. This position is usually about 1/3 of the way to the boss. This position probably isn't very feasible due to moving options.

(*4) Alice UF Far - 6/8 shot streams are hitting, only the 2 really angled shots are not.

(*5) Alice F Far - Only the primary shots and the 2 innermost sets of streams (4 total) are hitting.

(*6) Patch Water Med - The primary shots and the innermost set of streams (2 total) are hitting. This is about 1/2 of the way toward the boss.

(*7) Patch Wood Diag only - Only the 45 degree angled shots are hitting.

(*8) Patch Wood Top only - The primary shots and the diagonal shots from only the top 2 option are hitting (the ones in the center). Requires getting close to the boss from the front.

(*9) Patch Wood All - Primary shots and all the shots from the 4 options are hitting. Requires getting close to the boss from the front.

(*10) Patch Wood 3 Power All - At 3.0 - 3.95 Power, Primary shots and all the shots from the 3 options are hitting. Requires getting extremely close to the boss from the front.

(*11) Patch Metal Side - Only shots from the one side of 2 options (top or bottom set doesn't matter)

(*12) Patch Metal Top - Primary shots and shots from both sides of the top 2 options (the 2 top options are on the boss sprite, and character is below her)

(*13) Patch Metal Bottom - Shots from both sides of the bottom 2 options (the 2 bottom options are on the boss sprite, and character is above her)

(*14) Patch Earth - Only shots from the 4 options are hitting (shooting from above boss, not in sweetspot)

(*15) Patch Earth Sweetspot - Only shots from the 4 options are hitting while in sweetspot (the sweetspot distance is having about 1 Marisa height from the bottom of Marisa's sprite to the boss)

(*16) Patch Earth All - Primary shots and shots from all 4 options are hitting. Requires getting close to the boss from above.

(*17) Nitori UF - At this range while UF, the outer shots sometimes miss, sometimes hit.

(*18) Any char, 0 power - All characters have the same shot damage at 0 power. However, the damage from the primary shots will actually decrease as more options are gained. For characters with no spread, this doesn't matter. For the others, it matters when the option shots aren't hitting. This applies mainly to Aya, Patch Water and Patch Metal. Patch Wood and Patch Earth do not have primary shot damage weakened with increased power.



When relative damage is mentioned, it will be the damage the shot deals relative to the base damage (damage at 0 power). These do not include any special cases, just the primary shots + options hitting unless otherwise specified. These values are rounded to the nearest .05 and by nature are slightly inaccurate due to the method used to gather the data. This data should primarily be used to compare damage increases due to power. Sometimes 2 levels next to each other have the same value, this generally means the increase in damage in too small and got rounded off.


Yukari at full power does almost double the damage she does at no power. There is a larger increase in damage from 2 to 3 power than there is from 0 to 1, 1 to 2, with the increase from 3 to 4 following closely behind.
1.00/1.30/1.40/1.75/1.95 - Relative damage F at 0/1/2/3/4 power

Poor Suika, oni shouldn't be this weak! It doesn't help that on some cards, familiars (zombie fairies, ghosts) will lure the wisps away from the boss, making her damage even lower than it already is. Her wisps account for about half of her total damage at 4.0 power, with the amount they contribute decreasing as power decreases.
1.00/1.20/1.25/1.35/1.40 - Relative damage F at 0/1/2/3/4 power

When Aya has 3 power, firing from the side with 2 options is the same as 4 power, whereas firing from the side with 1 option is the same as firing at 2 or 1 power. The damage difference between firing with 1 option and firing with 2 options is surprisingly small however. Note that when firing with 2 options, the shots from the options make up about 2/3s of the total damage, whereas when firing with 1 option, they only make up about 1/2 of total. F damage will always be the same as UF damage or higher (if farther away), and there's no difference in damage at shotgun range. Since it's rather hard to control UF's aim while dodging (unless you stick to the bottom), F is generally superior if you can maintain it.
1.00/1.25/1.35 - Relative damage at 0/1 option hitting/2 options hitting

You have to be rather close to get the outer 2 streams of Alice UF to hit, but they do increase damage considerably if you manage to do so.
1.00/1.20/1.50/1.50/1.85/2.35 - Relative damage UF at 0/2/4/6 - 4 streams hitting/8 - 6 streams hitting/8 - 8 streams hitting

Patch Fire is surprisingly weak despite what it looks like. However, it still is Patch's strongest shot at long range.
1.00/1.25/1.30/1.30/1.40 - Relative damage at 0/1/2/3/4 power

Patch Water is rather weak, even if all the option shots are hitting (have options ontop of boss while above) and if in that position, the much stronger Earth shot should be used. Its primary purpose is for stage enemies, and it does that very well.

Patch Wood should be the shot of choice if you can stay close to the boss from the front. Wood L4 strangely does more damage (when at point blank) when only the top 2 options are hitting, rather than all 4. Wood L3 is the strongest shot in the game if all shots hit, possibly from damage increase compensation due to having a single option fire both ways. MarisaB at 3 power is again supreme in power.
1.00/1.60/1.75/2.70/1.85/2.15 - Relative damage at 0/1/2/3/4 - all hitting/4 - top 2 options only

Patch Metal is rather weak, and if you can get in position for Top or Bottom consistently, you should use Wood for below and Earth for above, as they're both notably stronger.

Patch Earth is quite strong, likely to compensate for the lower number of situations it's usable in. The sweetspot is strange, but makes shots stronger than simply shotgunning from above or shooting from far above, unless you can get the primary shots to hit as well. For a guaranteed estimate of sweetspot distance, go to the top of the screen above Utsuho during her third card (rotating suns). You're going to die momentarily, but that is the distance for the sweetspot.
0.00/0.95/1.20/1.40/1.70 - Relative damage at 0/1/2/3/4 power (primary shots not hitting)
1.00/1.50/1.85/2.00/2.35 - Relative damage at 0/1/2/3/4 power (primary shots hitting)

If all shots hit, Earth is stronger than Wood at L4 and L2, while Wood is stronger at L3 and L1. The difference at L4 is significant, while the difference at L2 is rather small. Thus it's usually fine to use Wood on bosses during bombs.

Nitori has a fair jump from 2 to 3 power, and a very small one from 3 to 4.
1.00/1.25/1.35/1.55/1.55 - Relative damage F at 0/1/2/3/4 power
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 05:17:53 pm by Edible »

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2009, 05:09:49 pm »
SUBTERRANEAN ANIMISM
Bomb Data
Format is Bomb Damage/Total Damage if shotgunning during bomb + bomb damage. Damage will often be rounded off unless it consistently gives one specific value. Second value will assume you started at max (4 or 8) power when you bombed.

These damage values are for enemy spellcards only.

Bombs no longer autocollect, but there is generally enough invincibility to run up and collect or run through some bullets during it.

During bombs, everyone can fire, and everyone deals full damage during them.

On the final card, the graphics for bombs are not changed, but their area of effect will be reduced. Utsuho gains armor anytime you're invincible on that card, so don't expect the bombs to do much damage.

Yukari
108/~700

Suika
0/~150
~1500 Max reflect damage

Aya
510-632/~1300

Alice
104/~250-400 laser only
546/~850 damage - doll touches

Patchouli
220-965/~1200

Nitori
89-180/x


Yukari's bomb hits the whole screen for 108 when it ends. On the final card, it will clear a small area extending outward from Utsuho's sun, rather than around you.

Suika's bomb itself does no damage. Instead, it makes a field which eats bullets and shoots out wisps. The max reflect damage was done on Utsuho's 1st card on Lunatic, eating 16 suns and the full spiral of blue bullets. Suns give a large number of bullets when cleared, but note that the suns on her 3rd card can't be cleared (rotating suns, but they have a smaller hitbox to compensate). On average, you'll get around 100-300 damage off reflected shots, so don't expect too much out of it. During the final card, this bomb will only reflect a small area centered on the graphic, rather than what it shows.

Aya's bomb lasts the longest and moves with you. The very fringe of it does not do damage, you have to go slightly in. The closer to the center the target is, the more damage the bomb does. During it, you should dash ontop of the boss and hit with all of your options (3-4). During the final card, this bomb will only clear a tiny area centered on you, but it's possible to run around and clear some bullets by essentially ramming them.

Alice bomb does 104 if only the laser hits. If the base of the laser/the doll itself hit the boss, it does 546. The varying bomb+shot damage for the laser depends on whether you get 5 or 7 of your remaining shots to hit during it. On the final card, the clear area will be the laser itself, rather than the entire heat distortion area around it.

Patch bomb does varying damage depending on how many rings hit. If you can get them into the center of the formation, it'll do max. Hitting with only 1 ring gives the min. Max shot damage was obtained with Wood L3. During the final card, each circle will only clear a small area, centered on itself.

Nitori's bomb does damage to the whole screen when it detonates (you get hit with the aura out). The closer the target is, the more damage it does. On the final card, it will only clear a small area centered around you upon detonation.


Bombs in general are a lot weaker in this game, and are no longer free card bypasses like they were before. Some people can still use them as such (Aya/Yukari at high power) or with a little planning (Patch/Alice), but they're now mainly for saving your life.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 05:18:08 pm by Edible »

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2009, 05:10:32 pm »
SUBTERRANEAN ANIMISM
Random stuff
Boss spellcards in this game don't seem to have an armor or invincibility period at the start, so they take full damage the moment the clock starts ticking. This means you're free to let's say, run up, drop a Patch bomb centered on the boss, then shotgun Wood L3 into them until the invincibility runs out.

Breaking the tradition of having the final card be immune to bombs (boss phases out while you're invincible), Utsuho instead gains armor (she takes 1/6-1/7 normal damage) when you're invincible, making bombs do pathetically little damage compared to normal. Your normal shots are also affected by this armor.

Reimu and Marisa's deathwaves (the clear that happens when you die) both do 12-38 damage, depending on how close you are to the target. 38 at bodyslam range and 12 at fullscreen in the corner.

Marisa has a slightly larger graze area than Reimu does. There is either no horizontal difference or it's too small to tell, but there is a difference diagonally (so likely vertical, but there also may be some from horizontal). The test was done on stage 6 Orin's card, Youkai "Blazing Wheel", while invincible in 5 locations (no movement from start of stage, bottom and top of screen with no horizontal movement, top left and bottom left corners of the screen). The graze numbers were 707/707, 641/641, 1386/1386, 1073/1106 and 604/668 for Reimu/Marisa, respectively.

Noncards have hp ranges of 5000 to 15000, but your shots do 5-7x the damage you do on spellcards on them, so they go down quickly enough. Unlike previous games where your bombs got a smaller multiplier than your shots did, your bombs also get the 5-7x multiplier to damage on noncards.

The random Orin appearance at the beginning of stage 4 is a noncard with 80000 hp, so good luck taking that down.

The HP values of spellcards are as follows (midboss:boss boss boss etc):
Stage 1
900:1500 1760

Stage 2
1000:1500 3050 1500

Stage 3
2000:1200 1800 2700

Stage 4
none: 1900
Yukari 2800 2500 3500
Suika  1700 2500 1500
Aya    1900 1900 3200
Alice   2200 3600 2000
Patch  2200 2000 2400
Nitori   2200 2000 2400

Stage 5
1500:1500 2200 2300 1500

Stage 6
2000:3000 2400 3000 3500 6500

Extra
3000 2200 2200:
3000 3300 2800 3200 [1] 3200 3600 2000 [4000] 11200

[] means survival card
Stage 6's final card is a 6500hp 140s spellcard that changes forms at 5000 and 3000 hp. If the timer reaches 30s, it will automatically change to a special final form (stronger than the 3000hp form).

Extra's final card is a 11200hp 190s spellcard that changes forms at 8400, 5600, and 2800 hp. It does not change based on time, thus if you desired, you could spend all 190s sitting on the first form to time it out.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis Thread
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2009, 05:11:27 pm »
I will send Mefidex's UFO data to him so he may update it in a new thread as necessary.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2009, 03:47:24 pm »
Just like to point out...

Stage 4
none: 1900
Yukari 2800 2500 3500
Suika  1700 2500 1500
Aya    1900 1900 3200
Alice   2200 3600 2000
Patch  2200 2000 2400
Nitori   2200 2000 2400

No wonder DDBB is so bullshit.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 03:52:35 pm by Clear »

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 03:33:37 am »
Why the lack of EoSD data? I came here to search for some bomb and Reimu data only to find EoSD neglected.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2009, 08:44:10 pm »
Dunno.

If there was EoSD shot/bomb data on the old boards, can someone direct me to them?  I'll add them to this thread.  Thanks!

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2009, 02:06:31 am »
Dunno.

If there was EoSD shot/bomb data on the old boards, can someone direct me to them?  I'll add them to this thread.  Thanks!
'Pretty sure it wasn't there, or else I would have seen it/obsessed over it already.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 03:49:15 pm »
Just adding an information :
Deathbombing on Mountain of Faith negates 3,000 faith penalty.

EDIT : Bombing/failing at Peerless Wind God reduces faith by 30,000. corrected below.
Done at Lunatic, don't know about other difficulty.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:08:05 pm by Zetzumarshen »

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 04:33:46 pm »
It's recognized as a timeout so you'll lose 30K faith whether or not you succeed at the spell.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 05:00:06 pm »
Didn't know that. Thanks.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 12:29:46 am »
Some UFO information to play around with. A bit late, but whatever. Might as well keep the info in one thread, aye?

Source.

Translated by Baity.

Damage per second (DPS) table, followed by a bomb damage table.



*Base Shot refers to the damage your primary shots deal, not including the ordinance your options will fire.

*Regarding Reimu B's bomb, Delay refers to the extra damage the orbs will deal if you let them linger on top of enemies before they explode.

EDIT: [23:05:45]   <Baity>   whoops transcription error :V
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 01:40:35 am by Naut »

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2010, 03:31:11 am »
Bump.

How did you find all this O.o

The number crunching here boggles the mind. I had no idea that the Touhou games were so extensive.
I wonder why ZUN uses such inflated numbers. In my game a LV10 person deals 12.649 damage per shot*, out of, what, 800, 1,200? That in and of itself takes at least forty seconds...

* Lv. 10 Focused. Lv. 10 Unfocused 15.811. Lvs. 1 & 5 F/UF - 4/5 8.944/11.899

Has anybody found card data for UFO yet? I want to show off Nue's stats to that one guy I'm better at this than.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 03:34:43 am by Mister Sanity »

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2010, 05:46:02 am »
I think it started in the earlier windows games so that ZUN could make bombs significantly weaker during noncards. Even though there's no need for it now (bombs do the same amount of damage).

Oh, and Reimu B's bomb can slightly damage Nue.

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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 11:22:35 pm »
Oh, and Reimu B's bomb can slightly damage Nue.
I've been thinking of this as the Josette Effect in my mind, since Josette's delayed attack spellcards in Stuffman's "Portrait of Sacred Relic" (danmakufu game) will go through boss invinciblity, since it ends before the attack actually hits. Really breaks some cards if you use her in a different script :V

I wish there was UFO Data for MarisaB far; that chart makes her look like a forward focus type-level of damage, when according to previous tests, she does the same damage as homing types from a distance. She's only a glorified weak Forward Focus in the first place, anyway; her spread does too pathetic damage to stop anything other then popcorn fairies, even at full power.
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Re: Mefidex's TH07-TH11 Shot/Bomb Analysis
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2010, 07:06:53 am »
BHow did you find all this O.o

Has anybody found card data for UFO yet? I want to show off Nue's stats to that one guy I'm better at this than.
I have my sources. I'm a scrubby translator but simple terms are easier for me to translate without losing the vitals.

Card data? Hm, I don't see anything regarding the HP of Spell Cards. All I've found is the rate of decrease any other miscellaneous information like that which is of little importance.

Now to answer a much debated point, here's a tier list for Focus Firing at Long Distance (for UFO hurf durf):
Quote
Reimu A >> Marisa A > Sanae A = Sanae B > Reimu B > Marisa B
To answer, yes, the >> is very intentional, and it's an agreed upon fact by the Japanese players as well as many others players on "this side" of things. So yeah, Marisa B gets the short end long-distance.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 07:12:59 am by Baity »
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TH13 demo TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 03:43:19 am »
This is just a quick comparison of some shots and bombs. I might do a more comprehensive comparison when the full game comes out or I might lazy out like I did for UFO, we'll see.

Character power comparison
Format is seconds taken to finish off Yuyuko's Nether Sign "Endless Evening Cherry Blossoms" and Cherry Blossom Sign "Saigyou Cherry Blossom Blizzard" cards which both have 2500 hp.

Times are rounded to the nearest .5 second.

All tests were done while invincible and directly under (or above/ontop of) the boss (no horizontal movement from the start of the stage).

All these times are done at full power (4.0).

Shotgun is right in Yuyu's face (feet). Assume shooting from the bottom of the screen otherwise.

20.0 ReimuUF
54.0 ReimuUF (homing only) *1
17.0 ReimuF
12.5 Reimu Trance

19.0 MarisaUF
18.0 MarisaF
16.0 MarisaF on fan *2
08.5 Marisa Trance

22.0 SanaeUF
16.5 SanaeUF (shotgun) *3
18.0 SanaeF
12.5 Sanae Trance

16.5 YoumuUF
29.5 YoumuUF (Youmu only)
33.5 YoumuUF (Myons only)
13.0 YoumuF Close *4
17.0 YoumuF Med *4
24.0 YoumuF Far *4
08.5 Youmu Trance


Ordered by Power - normal cases
08.5 Marisa Trance
08.5 Youmu Trance
12.5 Reimu Trance
12.5 Sanae Trance
16.5 YoumuUF
17.0 ReimuF
17.0 YoumuF Med *4
18.0 MarisaF
18.0 SanaeF
19.0 MarisaUF
20.0 ReimuUF
22.0 SanaeUF
24.0 YoumuF Far *4

Ordered by Power - All
08.5 Marisa Trance
08.5 Youmu Trance
12.5 Reimu Trance
12.5 Sanae Trance
13.0 YoumuF Close *4
16.0 MarisaF on fan *2
16.5 SanaeUF (shotgun) *3
16.5 YoumuUF
17.0 ReimuF
17.0 YoumuF Med *4
18.0 MarisaF
18.0 SanaeF
19.0 MarisaUF
20.0 ReimuUF
22.0 SanaeUF
24.0 YoumuF Far *4
29.5 YoumuUF (Youmu only)
33.5 YoumuUF (Myons only)
54.0 ReimuUF (homing only) *1


Notes
(*1) Reimu homing only - Extrapolated since the spellcard doesn't last that long.

(*2) MarisaF - Yuyu's fan seems to have some sort of hitbox, but pretty much only directly on Yuyu, as shots don't seem to hit anywhere else. Since Marisa's lasers are now fake lasers that don't penetrate, only her magic missiles will get extra damage from the fan.

(*3) SanaeUF shotgun - Sanae's shot is so wide one vertical shot and one angled shot from one of the options still misses at shotgun range, since Yuyu apparently isn't as fat hitbox wise as certain other bosses.

(*4) Youmu slashes - These numbers are from using only slashes to deal damage. If you fire UF during the small cooldown between the slash and the next slashcharge, you can get a little more damage. Close is when the held Myons are ontop of the boss lifebarcircle. Med is about 2-3 char heights down (midway between boss and bottom on the first card). Far is at the bottom of the screen against the first card.


Youmu's slashes seem to do damage based on how many of the slashes hit their target, not how long the slashes are over the target. The hitbox for a slash is a rectangle around the top 60-70% of the slash wave, so the 'empty' part behind the curve still counts as a hit (really noticable during Trance). As your power goes up, you get more slashes and the closer slashes feel closer together, so it's possible to get more of them to hit a single target.

The damage varies a lot because of how the slashes hit. They go from 114 (last slash only at power 2) to 336 (Myons overlapping boss lifebarcircle at power 4). At about 2 char heights (power 4), there's an area where it'll do 290 without having to be point blank. At medium range in general, it's not too hard to get around 200-250 damage a slash.

Since slash damage at mid range is still rather good, using exclusively slashes works fairly well, especially considering you don't have to be right underneath the boss when charging or releasing a slash.



A difference in power level seems to have a much smaller effect in this game than any other game, which is probably a good thing because it's using UFO's power system (need 300 P items to max, lose 100 on death and only get 7 or so back) without having red UFOs to help get P items.
Example times taken at 1power vs 4power
20.0/17.0 ReimuF
21.0/18.0 MarisaF
21.5/18.0 SanaeF
22.0/16.5 YoumuUF
The max damage multiplier from power only goes up to 1.30 or so for Youmu, with the rest of the cast at 1.10-1.15, unlike SA's max multiplier of ~2.35. Changing power level looks to be more for getting a wider/different attack range.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 12:58:21 am by Mefidex »

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Re: TH13 demo TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 03:44:31 am »
Bomb Data
Format is Bomb Damage/Total Damage when shooting during bomb + bomb damage. Damage will often be rounded off unless it consistently gives one specific value. Second value will assume you're at 4 power in a position for maximum damage and letters in () will show whether UF or F.

These damage values are for enemy spellcards only.
Reimu(F)
290-770/~1200

Marisa(F)
868/~1500

Sanae(F)
475-763/~1200

Youmu(UF/F)
373-638/~1300

Reimu's bomb does maximum damage if all the balls explode on the target, which means starting/staying right ontop of the boss.

Youmu's bomb will vary in damage depending on where the boss is, since the slashes are in fixed locations on the screen.  The ~1300 for F assumes you didn't start charging until after the bomb started.  In this case, you'll almost have another full charge at the end of the bomb, so you might be able to get another one off before bullets come back, which takes it up to 1600ish.  If you were charged before the bomb, you should be able to get 1600 easily.  These all assume you get into the sweet spot (Myons are right on the lifebarcircle) for maximum slash damage.





Random stuff
The Trance gauge consists of 600 points, each flame is 200 points. You start the game with 1 flame = 200 points.

Each non-gray spirit is worth 2 points (blue, green, purple), while each gray spirit is 3 points. The exception is Sanae where all spirits are worth 3 points to her.

During a Trance, the gauge ticks down at 60 per second, making exactly 10s at a full gauge of 600. Any spirits you collect during one will not add to your Trance gauge.

When you die, you'll drop enough spirits to restore 93 points of the Trance gauge.

In general if you immediately get right ontop of the boss after firing a bomb, you can get about 170-200 points toward your Trance gauge.

Spirits don't fade away during Trance mode.

Reimu autocollects all spirits during Trance mode, while Marisa gets a notable speed boost.

Yoshika gets 43 hp back per spirit eaten, but she only eats blue spirits, not gray ones. She can go over the spellcard's initial health with this. If you don't absorb any of the spirits on her final card, she'll gain 643 hp each wave (I don't know why it doesn't end up on an even multiple of 43, probably some rounding somewhere).

Yoshika doesn't emit spirits when taking damage during her first/last spellcards like everyone else does.

There doesn't seem to be any boss invincibility between noncards/cards, as long as the lifebarcircle isn't empty, you can deal full damage to bosses.

I didn't see any difference between a manually triggered Trance and a death triggered Trance, nor any difference based on the power you had going into Trance, other than dying after a death Trance.

The cost in purple spirits to get extra lives increases by 5 up til 40, so you get lives after getting 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 spirits. Bombs always cost 10 green spirits. Since the counter goes back to 0 after each life, I question whether this system will remain in the full game, unless ZUN is planning on the game having rather low resources, or will put in a bunch of 1up items.
*edit* Apparently there are life/bomb+3 items in the image extracts, though they're currently not used in the demo. These would definitely help in reaching the higher costing lives.

Random fact: If you spend the entire demo in Trance mode (not legit obviously), you get the 10 and 15 lives, and end at 11/20 on the 20 life.

The HP values of spellcards are as follows (midboss:boss boss boss etc):
Stage 1;
none:1500 1500 2500 2500

Stage 2
2000:2700 2200 2500

Stage 3
1800:2200 2600 2800
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:28:54 am by Mefidex »

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 03:57:55 am »
Wow that was fast.
But what about the bomb damage when Youmu uses her slashes during her bomb?

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 04:18:42 am »
If counting only during the bomb (assuming you started charging after you started the bomb), around 1300. Assuming uncharged at bomb start, you'll almost have another full charge at the end of the bomb, so you might be able to get another one off before bullets come back, so that takes it up to 1600ish.  If you were charged before the bomb, you should be able to get 1600 easily.  These all assume you get into the sweet spot (Myons are right on the lifebarcircle) for maximum slash damage.

Posted updated with this.

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 04:26:28 am »
:D That's alot of damage.
Thanks for doing it so quickly.

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2011, 04:48:59 am »
... Needle Reimu still beats missile Marisa.

Then again, the differences are so marginal that Marisa's trance and bomb can make up for it somewhat easily.

Though I'm impressed by the functionality of the shots, though~

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Re: TH13 TD Shot/Bomb Data
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2011, 12:45:40 pm »
We all love you for this Mefidex. :V Some comments:

Hm, so Sanae's faster Trance refilling ability isn't strikingly different from everyone else's refilling rate. Interesting.

Just out of curiosity, do you have frame data for how long each character's bomb lasts? I know we can do relative comparisons, though having numbers would help.
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