Draft Mafia - Game Over

[WHMZakeri]

I don't have much time to skim over it but I think the no-lynch plan is a good idea.

[WHMZakeri]

I'll be on later today to discuss it more.

[Shadoweh]

Bed/fridge logic
For me to be scum Roleclop and know Shadoweh is doc, that means I idled a night hit to Roleclop Shadoweh and learn she is doc.

Don't be silly, again. Everyone except you, me and Mitsuki claimed.  Mitsuki can't be the doc because the doc can't self-protect. Zakeri wouldn't have known who the last role is but you would have.

I also can't have been the tracker if people knew CF7 wasn't here to get a track N1, but it's not like that was advertised. <.<

If you want to no-lynch, Mits, then just decide when you want to end discussion today. I already said in the QT why I think your actions aren't scum tracker so etc.

[Mitsuki]

Mitsuki just to humor me though: why did you track Rawr?  It seems like a fairly oblique shot.

Because he seemed scum to me when I reread N1. If I recall correctly it was overall because I didn't feel like he was involved in the game.
I wanted to remain silent about it so that people wouldn't realise I was the tracker, so I just brought up the meta points I had against him (since other people were unlikely to bring those up)

I want to go with the NL plan; however, let's use some more time to discuss. I'm going to be very busy this weekend, anyways, so not ending the day inmediately is for the best.
Also I want SkyPal to post his doc crumbs.

[Mitsuki]

SkyPal, what did you want to do by crumbing rolecop? What did you aim for?

also I really want Zakeri to talk.

[Sky_Paladin]

SkyPal, what did you want to do by crumbing Roleclop? What did you aim for?

Sure.  In this post I was sure Zak was scum. 

I said:

I think a mass claim would be helpful since Zak has to claim Roleclop and that would explain why he outed Just as a neighbour.  And if he lies about his role, I will know. 

Because Just had picked up Zak as being a rolecop scumbuddy with Rawr and I wanted Zak to be forced to claim rolecop.  Or, if he wasn't a rolecop, then he would think I was the rolecop because of my last comment, which was nearly true because I had POE'd all the roles already down to tracker + doctor + (one missing in action), and I wanted scum to think I had that (missing in action) instead of just vanilla.  I knew there must be a doctor in the game because I had picked it and didn't get the role.  I didn't expect it to be Zak. 

Also I want SkyPal to post his doc crumbs.

Note that since I didn't actually get doc, my crumbs take the nature of somebody who knows there is a doc in the game from the get-go rather than "I protected player x" because I couldn't submit an action. 

My first main post of the game outlined why I thought revealing the draft order was a bad idea.  That's because I knew there was a doc in the game higher up than me. 

Later I wrote it again [urlhttps://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162296.html#msg1162296]in bold[/url] because holy cow, people were arguing against it. 

The value of the list is to suggest who the doctor, if there is one, should cover this night phase. 

I knew there was a doctor on day 1.  To be fair, that's not a hard assumption for even scum to make though, because what are the odds nobody picked doctor? 

On day 3, when we were deciding between Raikaria and Zak, I commented on the no-hit somewhat randomly. 
"Oh right, lack of nightkill.  I presume that means we either had a doc block or a town block on a scum hit or scum idled."

There was one option missing from that lack of nightkill; and that was that a town roleblocker had blocked a mafia hit.  I didn't raise that option because I knew there was a doc in the game, and since I had (mistakenly) POE'd Zak as scum rolecop, there could be no roleblock and a doc was the only role option.  I knew there was a doc because I'd tried to pick it and didn't get it. 

Responding to the next thing in the next post. 

[Sky_Paladin]

Shadoweh
post

Zakeri wouldn't have known who the last role is but you would have.

Zakeri would have known the last role is doc, and that there was a doc amongst you and Mitsuki.  And he's known it since the very start of the game, because he is the number 3 draft pick, and he picked doc, and didn't get the role.  When he claimed that he picked doc but got vanilla, he made it public knowledge.  So the argument that I'm a scum role cop that knew you were the doc doesn't hold water, because the time I would have *found out* you were the doc would have been night 1 when Rawr got tracked making the kill, or night 2 when the hit got idled.  And then, after having identified the doc and drove significant attention on my buddy and got him basically lynched before the tracker claim even came to light, elected to hit the one person who trusted me.  That's stupid. 

No lynch option:
This is only viable if scum have another no-hit up their sleeve.  Since they could just idle their hit again and we are here for the same thing. 
@Mod - Can scum no-hit this game?  Can scum no-hit more than once? 

My main concern coming into this day phase was a scenario of Shadoweh and Mitsuki counter-claiming tracker. 

Paper checking:
If we idle, and scum choose to hit, and...
scum!Mitsuki -> Would hit town confirmed Zak or doc!Shadoweh.  Claim she saw Sky or Shadoweh make the hit, on the balance of things, probably "I saw Sky hit Zak" since Shadoweh already trusts her for gg. 

scum!Shadoweh -> Would hit town confirmed Zak since she can't hit Mitsuki, but then would walk into LYLO with Mitsuki knowing for sure Shadoweh is scum, so they'd countervote.  Up to Sky to ruin LYLO again. 

We already know Zak is town and delaying the phase only removes one player we can trust from the decision making process.  It does increase the likelihood that we get a confirm guilty/additional clear from Mitsuki.  The operating question is 'do we trust Mitsuki?' 

I'm focusing on day 2, when we lynched Rawr.  Mitsuki started out voting Zak.  I presume, though, she announced in the QT before doing this that she had tracked Rawr and was voting Zak to dissuade suspicion that she was the tracker.  If so, A-game move.  I want to be sure it wasn't scum throwing their buddy under a bus, because Rawr's defense was strangely lacking and then he claimed the scum hit.  That seems odd. 
So, for Shadoweh:  Did Mitsuki volunteer to check Rawr, as she suggests in her response, earlier?  Or was she convinced to do it by Bard?

My feeling is that she didn't get convinced to do it and legitimately thought Rawr was scum and tracked him for it.  This is consistent with her day 2 behavior. 

So for me, that makes the only possible solution be that Shadoweh is scum doc. 

I'll now go through and highlight some of my day 1/day2 posts where I helped towards a Rawr lynch. 

[SB]

I'm going to be busy as hell this weekend, so if we don't get enough time to discuss we can always NL since it's MyLo. (@mod: is it mylo? since it's not been announced. Also you were supposed to bring up I have limited access orz)

Rule 10.

@Mod - Can scum no-hit this game?  Can scum no-hit more than once? 

Scum can no kill to their heart's content.

[Shadoweh]

So, for Shadoweh:  Did Mitsuki volunteer to check Rawr, as she suggests in her response, earlier?  Or was she convinced to do it by Bard?

My feeling is that she didn't get convinced to do it and legitimately thought Rawr was scum and tracked him for it.  This is consistent with her day 2 behavior. 

For Zakeri's sake I'll answer this: Mitsuki tracked Rawr before she was in a QT with Bardiche. In fact there's no way Bard could have asked her to track first so I have no idea why you would float this as a possibility. Also Mitsuki's first post in the QT is basically 'lol i have a guilty on rawr'. I said it there last night when Bard asked if it were possible Mitsuki faked it. I'm p sure that a scum Mitsuki would not have started the day by telling a townie that her partner was scum.

Re: Mod questions, why would you eliminate the only chance for a no-lynch to be productive, that's why I didn't say why I thought it would be unproductive. >_> Well, the answer to that is p obvious but etc.

Sky P: I'm not actually claiming that you had to rolecop me. If there are two choices and one of them had a doc protect on them, it's pretty obvious which one is the doctor.

[Sky_Paladin]

Pending SB's response re: scum idling hits, my feeling is "Let's go with Mitsuki's plan, and I'll vote Shadoweh in LYLO."  We'll see if that gets me killed over Zak  

I want to establish that I'm town so we can make this clearly Mitsuki vs Shadoweh, because that's what it is, and the sooner Zak/Mitsuki are on the same page, the easier this will get. 

EG Mitsuki was town clearing me early in the game for some reason.  I'd like to think that's because of things I posted. 

Some posts where I think my town intent is clear:
Post
I address almost all of the players (I miss CF7/Shadoweh inexplicably) including Rawr, "The phase is already half over and you have zero posts.  I have no problem consolidate voting you if you don't improve."

Less effective but in the same basic style, I engage several players and pressure the afk ones. 

I continue to engage in a very active way with Bard/Mitsuki.  I will eventually case and vote Just.  During this encounter/the following day, we all seem to mutually town clear one-another, and go looking for other fish to fry. 

I didn't go for the obvious day 1 easy lynch of Raikaria until my main lynch option of Bard was unavailable, and provided reasoning here.

I unnecessarily expose myself to a strong risk of criticism by defending Mitsuki, who was at L-1. 

I'm in the situation where as a town player, I've observed Mitsuki start a case while she wasn't under any pressure, and I feel like the scum thing for her to do would have been to sit back and let town do something random, or to join in on another wagon (Raikaria and mine were the main ones iirc).  That's why we have that third on wagon scumtell, right? 

We didn't know it at the time, but apparently we had two town wagons at L-1.  I asked for an alternate consolidation wagon.  Mitsuki suggested Dormio, which I disagreed with and voted Raikaria, finally.  I didn't vote Dormio because I didn't completely trust Mitsuki, but I reasoned both Just and Mitsuki could not be scum, and that's when I made my vote to Dormio. 

I think, overall, I had a pretty awesome day 1 for trying hard not to lynch towns. 

Day 2:
I called out Rawr, what, three times?  I would much rather we have flipped him than Dormio ugh. 
I vote Rawr in my very first post, after agreeing with Bard.  I didn't have the benefit of a tracker guilty, and I also wasn't in the neighbours QT to go "hmm yes sorry my scum buddy Rawr, I have to throw you under a bus."  So there's no reason for Rawr to wilt in the face of my questioning. 

I note on the re-read 2 Shadoweh popped up and mentioned something about claims, but when asked to explain, she declined to do so :/

Sky, "Regarding claims, if it can be explained how we can do it to benefit town, I'm all for it.'

More pressure on Rawr:

Given his day 1 performance, I will not assume he is busy, and in fact assume that he is avoiding the game because he is lurking scum hoping we will mislynch another towny. 

I then interrogate Rawr for his fairly bizarre vote on me.  When he ignores it, I put some more reasons why Rawr was scum. 

We then had a tracker claim and surprise surprise, Rawr flipped scum. 

But hey, here's Shadoweh's responseto my questioning in Rawr, just before the tracker claim:

Are you sure you aren't just voting him because he's making what you see as a bad case on you, because that's how your response comes off to me. >_>
I guess it doesn't matter much. Reading over it your case is pretty good, I don't think you've ever had a high opinion of Dan so I can't see how his nightkill would implicate you either. (Rawr is more likely to get killed for the weirdness  :] )

I mean, the alternative is that Mitsuki and Bardiche are having a scum pajama party and just high-fiving each other in the scuum QT endlessly because i really can't see scum feeling like they have to do much when this is a five-page game. Its pretty worrying that everyone I would consider high priority lived (Cf7 is not exacctly at the top of the kill list either sorry bro). But Bard just feels interested in solving things and i like the way zakky-chan sounds. Also since no one seems interested in claiming im just going to drop it, it's not that important right now anyways. (probably doesn't matter since we didn't figure it out ahead of time.)

I'm kind of confused I had a chance to replace in in the first place, having looked at the ruleset. >_>

Like what is this post lol. 

***

Day 3 was the Raikaria-engineered mislynch of Raikaria, so I don't think we can get much out of it.  That said:

Reasons for thinking Zak was scum.

A crumb I missed plus when I decided we should lynch Raikaria. 

Main post where I outline reasons to lynch Raikaria because I think he is scum, not because it's convenient. 

***

Day 4. 

Well that's what I've got.  I invite Shadoweh to go through the game and show us how towny she is. 

[Mitsuki]

SkyPal finding it hard to believe that I tracked Rawr out of my own will makes me sad.

"Oh right, lack of nightkill.  I presume that means we either had a doc block or a town block on a scum hit or scum idled."

There was one option missing from that lack of nightkill; and that was that a town roleblocker had blocked a mafia hit.  I didn't raise that option because I knew there was a doc in the game, and since I had (mistakenly) POE'd Zak as scum Roleclop, there could be no roleblock and a doc was the only role option.  I knew there was a doc because I'd tried to pick it and didn't get it.

ugh, I've been struggling with this but I don't really understand what you mean. By "town block on scum" didn't you mean that a town roleblocker could have blocked a mafia hit?

I think I've already made up my mind on who is scum, but I want to know what Zakeri thinks before talking about it to see if we reach the same conclusion, also I shouldn't really be posting right now. And anyways if it's a battle of seeing who gets tired on NLing/nokilling first I'm going to win this one

[Shadoweh]

Sky Pal trying to engineer this into a confirmed tracker who tracked scum vs a confirmed doc who blocked a nightkill makes me giggle madly.  I almost feel bad for you, expect for the part where I'm dancing on your grave.

"Mitsuki was clearing me earlier, clearly I did a townie thing so trust me bby". That post of mine that Sky pointed out is me thinking his case on Rawr was reactionary. Which I thought at the time didn't matter, but now I'm pretty sure it's because he wasn't expecting his buddy to come out doing nothing but swinging at him.

Also re: massclaiming, I was suggesting it so that the roles in the setup were confirmed and everyone's actions could be monitored. Things like Dan dying without claiming means we don't know what role he picked/what roles were ruled out. It turned out not to matter and with the Bard/Mitsuki hookup, I'm not surprised they didn't consider it.

Also also, forgive me if I don't have a priority on proving to you that I'm town, I really don't see you changing your mind about what a good lynch you are.

[Sky_Paladin]

Mitsuki

SkyPal finding it hard to believe that I tracked Rawr out of my own will makes me sad.

It's not that I don't beleive.  It's that I wanted to be sure.  I don't know how neighbourhood inviting works, from the role description I assumed Bard would invite and then you'd join *that night phase*.  So if there was a way I could find out for sure, I wanted to exploit that.  Then I am in a position to decide if you bussed a scum buddy or not. 

By "town block on scum" didn't you mean that a town roleblocker could have blocked a mafia hit?

I'm sorry, I genuinely screwed up here. 

I didn't realise I had included roleblock.  When I was going through my posts for crumbs based on game state awareness, I was also comparing my game state notes on my quicktopic, where I wrote "roleblocker and rolecop MIA".  I was so sure I had crumbed it that I included it in my post but I was mistaken.  I wrote it myself and somehow parsed it incorrectly on the re-read.  It's an error. 

Shadoweh

trying to engineer this into a confirmed tracker who tracked scum vs a confirmed doc who blocked a nightkill

Couple of things. 

1 - You're not confirmed.  Roles are not alignment indicative.  We had Dormio flip JOAT. 
2 - What's this about a 'confirmed block'?  We don't know anything about that.  By your story, I idled the hit so I could do a role check on either your or Mitsuki.  It doesn't add up. 

That post of mine that Sky pointed out is me thinking his case on Rawr was reactionary.

How could it be reactionary if I was voting Rawr first?  You know it's not, because:
Shadoweh:
Post "Rawr was insistant on pushing a weird case on Sky Paladin."

Things like Dan dying

I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever kill Dan, unless I knew he was roled, because he is too valuable as a mislynch in LYLO.  Which you know, because:

I don't think you've ever had a high opinion of Dan so I can't see how his nightkill would implicate you either.

So no, you don't get to suspect me as scum.  You know it's not me. 

Also also, forgive me if I don't have a priority on proving to you that I'm town, I really don't see you changing your mind about what a good lynch you are.

Actually, I want you to prove that you are town so I can make an easier choice between you and Mitsuki.  I presume you want to prove you are town because
Mitsuki

Also in case I died you can assume the doc to be scum lol

Is at least considering that you might not be what you say you are. 

And also, because at the moment:

Why Mitsuki is town:
Spent most of day 1 engaging other players (including myself and Bard).  Was ultimately seen as town by both Bard and I, enough so that Bard invited her to his topic. 
Did not push for a mislynch of Raikaria when she was at L-1.  Instead, organised a lynch of Dormio from scratch, which was quite dangerous. 
CF7 (your slot, which is scummy) and Rawr both voting for Mitsuki day 1 for very sloppy reasons. 
Mitsuki claimed town tracker with a confirmed guilty on Rawr.  Presented validated results that benefit town. 
Generally very active and engaging many/all players.  Town rating:  Shiny gold star. 

Why Shadoweh is scum:
Slot spent most of day 1 sitting on OMGUS vote with Dormio. 
Claimed scum with Dormio early in the game.  Not a town strategy! 
Votes Mitsuki because she's voting him for claiming scum. 
Voteparked; vanished for the rest of the phase. 
Shadoweh;
Information instead of analysis, commentary on the game.  Mentions mass claiming, when asked, abandons it.  But hey we've done that already so. 
Reaction to Rawr's case:  Chainsaw defend.  And it is a chainsaw defend, because we have a flip of Rawr~!  Stalls for time, "I'm kind of confused I had a chance to replace in in the first place, having looked at the ruleset" blah blah blah whatever.  This post is full of crap. 
Shadoweh's next post, after Rawr has claimed scum, is idle banter, doesn't really comment on Rawr, or vote. 

Shadoweh has literally one post in day 3 where she was NOT littering the thread with useless non content posts, and this is it.  Here she implicates Raikaria and Zak as her scum picks. 
Town rating:  Safety hazard.

***

So on the balance of things, I'd happily lynch Shadoweh off the face of the earth right now.  Consider me psuedo-voting her. 

I'll also wait another night phase if Zak/Mitsuki want to no-lynch.  But I think all that will happen is another idle. 

Shadoweh

Re: Mod questions, why would you eliminate the only chance for a no-lynch to be productive, that's why I didn't say why I thought it would be unproductive.

Because scum could just ask in their quick topic and already know the answer, having already idled their hit once.  I'm town, so I have to ask in public.  I'd rather not entertain a strategy unless it can be confirmed useful for town. 

[Sky_Paladin]

Actually I'm going to knock this one out of the park. 

By your story, I idled the hit so I could do a role check on either your or Mitsuki. 

If Shadoweh did magically block a hit night 3 (which is what she is now claiming), and she was protecting Mitsuki, then scum now know that Mitsuki is a tracker and that Shadoweh is a doc (because Zak claimed doc pick and miss, and by POE that's the result). 

Q) Why did scum hit and kill Bard when they knew Shadoweh was the doc? 
A) They wouldn't. 

And that's how you know I'm town. 

[Shadoweh]

1 - You're not confirmed.  Roles are not alignment indicative.  We had Dormio flip JOAT. 
2 - What's this about a 'confirmed block'?  We don't know anything about that.  By your story, I idled the hit so I could do a role check on either your or Mitsuki.  It doesn't add up. 

Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never claimed you did a role cop instead of performing the nightkill. I've made it clear thrice that since the doctor can't self-protect, Failing to kill Mitsuki means you knew Mitsuki wasn't the doctor. Also, you cheeky little schmuck:

SETUP INFO:
There are 7 townies and 2 mafia members. By default, everyone is a vanilla. Unless stated otherwise, the mafia members can perform the factional kill and use their roles in the same night.

Oh, oops! Guess you were never actually restricted after all were you?

How could it be reactionary if I was voting Rawr first?  You know it's not, because:
Shadoweh:
Post "Rawr was insistant on pushing a weird case on Sky Paladin."

I think if Rawr hadn't become the center of attention the entire day you would have backed off him. Instead you got stuck in this awkward slapfight that made him look terrible and you couldn't pull out. I don't think there was an alternate to Rawr that day. Like, at all. Turns out cases predicated on knowing someone is scum make you look bad in advance.

I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever kill Dan, unless I knew he was roled, because he is too valuable as a mislynch in LYLO.  Which you know, because:
So no, you don't get to suspect me as scum.  You know it's not me.

Never Would I Ever As Scum Do That Thing I Did This Game. The thing is I can't think of anyone who would normally kill Dan, it's not what I would do either. You however, aren't the only member of your scumteam, and Rawr doing random things isn't out of the question. So no, you don't get to pretend you couldn't have done it when you weren't the only one there.

Actually, I want you to prove that you are town so I can make an easier choice between you and Mitsuki.  I presume you want to prove you are town because
Mitsuki Is at least considering that you might not be what you say you are. 

I'm much more interested in proving you're scum. Maybe if you were town you wouldn't be so worried about how you look to people.

Because scum could just ask in their quick topic and already know the answer, having already idled their hit once.  I'm town, so I have to ask in public.  I'd rather not entertain a strategy unless it can be confirmed useful for town.

Well technically town didn't have to either.. Bard already said in our QT that scum can idle. I trust him not to have lied for some reason.

Cut:

Question. Do you think you could have gotten Bard lynched today over me? Because that's what you're suggesting and I really doubt you thought that was a possibility. I didn't even consider myself dying a possibility. (Also because of my inability to be nightkilled after LYNCHING SCUM BUT SOMEHOW GET LYNCHED ANYWAYS *wheeze*.)

[Sky_Paladin]

What you have established, unambiguously, is that the scum team knew that in the previous night phase you, Shadoweh, are the doc. 

The only reason I could see for your survival is that you are in fact scum. 

[Shadoweh]

Luckily no one was asking for what you thought about it. Although you're the one who said role =/= alignment.
Shouting at you is fun but I wish there were actual townies here to talk to.  Zakeri pls actually show up again. :<

[Sky_Paladin]

You effectively said, and just now agreed, that scum knew you were the doctor and that they didn't kill you.  Instead they chose to kill Bard. 

You should at the very least consider the implications of this. 

Why would scum knowingly avoid the doctor and hit Just? 

I didn't even consider myself dying a possibility.

Why were you so confident that you wouldn't be night killed? 

[Sky_Paladin]

While we're waiting, could you please elaborate on this:

I'm much more interested in proving you're scum.

As I have not seen a case from you yet, just a bit of attempted character assassination and stuffing around. 

I'm quite happy for Zakeri and Mitsuki to remain silent, watch, and ask questions.  They have nothing to prove.  You do. 

[Shadoweh]

Because I never die. :V You were even in the game I was referencing.
Why would the scum want one of their only mislynches dead? The alternative is what, Mitsuki thought she needed to do anything but claim a guilty and point today? I don't think so.

They can't ask questions if they aren't talking. At this rate they're not going to be around again for me until tomorrow.

[Sky_Paladin]

Well, if it was me, I would have hit Shadoweh and then angled for a lynch of Bard or Zak (depending on who Mitsuki tracked). 

The angle on Bard would go something like, he was forced to push Rawr because Mitsuki claimed a guilty in the QT.  He couldn't exactly back out of it.  Mitsuki and I both found Bard scummy early day 1.  Conversely, I at least thought you were the tracker because Bard was applying zero pressure to you and that implied you were being chatty in the QT.  I am interested to see who Zak thought was the doc tbh.  The fact that I obviously had no clue who the real tracker was kind of shows I wasn't behind the night 3 hit/idle. 

As I recall, you died in that game.  But enough about you!  Let's hear this case on me. 

[Mitsuki]

Ugh, I have no time and I'll be away for more than 24 hours but I feel bad for letting this slapfight go on.

I think Shadoweh is scum here, basically because I can see SkyPal's confidence, and Shadoweh feels scared. While I'm not that confident on Shadoweh, the more I think about it the more I can't see SkyPal as scum. Being skeptical of the tracker and trying to get 2 townies in a 1vs1? No way scum would do that.
The thing on Shadoweh is that right now she feels slightly as scum and then SkyPal brought a good point about her trying to shoot down SkyPal's Rawr case.

##vote: Shadoweh

I'm sorry if this is the wrong choice. If Zakeri wants to think over it and sees things differently, we can always NL and talk a bit more about it. But otherwise I'd rather not let such a fight continue, I don't think it's fun for SkyPal and specially not for Shadoweh.

[WHMZakeri]

It's part of the ruleset that town will get tired of NL long before Scum even have the chance to get tired of NKing.

Mitsuki's cases and actions are solidly consistent, especially on day 2 with having a guilty on Rawr and letting it slide to pursue me as the other scum. also bard's "Vote Shadoweh, no j/k vote rawr" Fits in perfectly with the narrative of Mitsuki getting a Guilty.

My Gut says to lynch Shadoweh, but all logic and occam's razor points towards Sky being the final scum.

I don't think Shadoweh's 252 post after Rawr outs himself is indicative of a sense of loss for the game. Sky was expressing some frustration but did a good job of covering up.
The question of what happened night two can only have two answers at this point: Sky shot Mitsuki (Very likely, Mitsuki and Shadow were both likely to have a role, and he knew one of them had to be doctor or tracker.) or Shadoweh forewent the NK in order to support her being Town Doctor (I'm thinking not likely, because I think a scumminded person in Shadoweh's position would be putting more weight on proving that made her town.)
Sky paladin would not have intentionally forego the NK on night two since he can't benefit from it at all (Since it's impossible for him to be the doctor.)
Sky's reaction to my claim as well as the way he suggested things goes along with the fact that he also picked Doctor. I also now understand what he was doing when he made the claim that I could only be Rolecop (which had me confused at the time because pfft I would never actively choose rolecop under any circumstances even as scum. Even roleblocker would have been cool).

though serious question

I think there is strategic value in holding on to my role at this stage.  If your town network realllllly wants to know, let me know your posting on behalf of the neighbourhood watch. 

Considering this was after I claimed not-doc and Doc being divided among Shadoweh and Mitsuki becoming public knowledge when I claimed, what exactly was the strategic value of holding onto your role? Your gambit to get me to claim rolecop didn't work either, and the only people other than me were the doctor, the tracker, the neighborizer, and the guy we were in the process of lynching.

I had a bunch of thoughts regarding sky being a blocker, but I realize that's impossible because if he was I wouldn't be confirmed town today.
Basically I've been slowly convincing myself that it makes more sense for the last scum to be Sky Paladin.

...of course ultimately the problem with this is that his entire play this game is indicative of him picking the Doctor role, and I absolutely doubt that being sixth on the totem pole as scum he would have attempted to go for that role. Scum picking Doctor only happens in the upper slots, because they would want o swipe that role away from town and use it as a safeclaim. Town in sixth place getting doc makes sense because it really is an important role and it would be embarrassing if town let the role slip through without being in the game just because people assumed somebody else would get it. Heck even I banked on CF7 and Mitsuki letting it slip.

[WHMZakeri]

I spent three hours slowly convincing myself it's Sky, got cut by Mitsuki and then spent three minutes convincing myself it's shadoweh.

[Shadoweh]

... YOU CAN'T BE FUCKING SERIOUS.

I do not get scared. What I am is confident that at least -I- know who the last scum is and you can't seriously want to throw this game away because he's 'CONFIDENT'. This is pretty much the only way you could throw a game in which scum got shafted at every step. There is no reason scum wouldn't want the two technically non-confirmed town on each other's throats. I mean, it's clearly working on you.

Zak: At least you get what I've been saying about the roles being known this entire time. Why would I think the game is lost on Day 2 anyways, I'm not that fricking bad a player. Besides, the question that isn't being asked here is if I thought Mitsuki was the tracker, instead of protecting her why wouldn't I just SHOOT HER BECAUSE I'M THE DOCTOR? There is no reason for me to 'pretend' to do anything but protect the wrong people. The only reason that didn't happen is because the scum had to worry about their kill being stopped every step of the way.

[Shadoweh]

Mitsuki please tell me you didn't just leave for a day. >_> GET BACK HERE AND FIX THIS BEFORE WE LOSE.

[WHMZakeri]

True, in addition to Shadoweh having to forego the NK in order to confirm clear Mitsuki just for the chance of brownie points, She also had the option to just Kill Mitsuki and claim she had decided to switch off to protect me or Bardiche or somebody else for "outguessing reasons." Remember, Shadoweh has to be the doctor whether or not She's scum so there's no reason why Mitsuki would be alive in this situation.

I will commend sky for trying to get scumslips out of people he knows are town though. Not just with me but also claiming he expected Shadoweh would counter claim Mitsuki. It's real easy to buy into the story Sky is giving, especially since I do believe he choose to be a Doctor.

dammit, I was trying to go back to sleep since I only got five hours and then I had to get back up to explain why Sky has to be town but now that I've read Shadoweh's post I lost it.

The short is, the night actions don't line up completely with Shadoweh, but sky did put effort into scumhunting me and Shadoweh in different ways, and he's only been caught lying about it once (When he mentioned town roleblocker and forgot he had mentioned it.) despite giving detailed accounts of his actions and thought processes as the days progressed. it really is just a war between Gut vs shadoweh and Logic vs. Sky.

[Sky_Paladin]

Here and reading.

[Sky_Paladin]

Well I'll start by not immediately hammering Shadoweh.  So I hope that at least buys Zak's interest enough to consider the choice between Mitsuki/Shadoweh. 

I'm still waiting to see Shadoweh's case on me, but since we can proooooobably assume I'm town because of the no hammer, I'm more interested in seeing if Shadoweh can sell scum!Mitsuki. 

I want to go revisit something Shadoweh said and see if I am happy enough to hammer that though. BRB.

[Sky_Paladin]

Zak

Considering this was after I claimed not-doc and Doc being divided among Shadoweh and Mitsuki becoming public knowledge when I claimed, what exactly was the strategic value of holding onto your role?

I knew that roleblocker and rolecop were not in play.  Scum didn't know this.  By pretending to hold on to a role that could have been a roleblock, it made scums life more difficult in choosing a night kill - they probably guessed I would block you, though (which is what I would have done).  When the new day roled around and I wasn't dead, I actually thought that doc!Mitsuki was scum, and nearly wrote that.  But then Mitsuki claimed tracker!  That went against what I expected, so I realised I had to hold on to my role until Shadoweh confirmed the claim. 

Because as long as there was a chance I was the rolecop, xxxxx!doc could not counter claim xxxxx!tracker without the risk of rolecop!Sky knowing the truth.  The real nightmare scenario of Just dying is that there is no way for us to know which of Mitsuki and Shadoweh is the tracker with the confirm guilty, unless they both agreed to tell us the truth about it.  I didn't realise this until after Mitsuki had made the 'wrong' claim. 

Can you imagine what today would look like if Shadoweh had said "No, I am the tracker, and I tracked Zakeri, who went nowhere.  Mitsuki is lying!"  They'd countervote right off the bat, and you and I would be forced to choose between them, with the first one to blink and vote deciding the game.  Shadoweh could easily lie and say she's done plenty of scumhunting in the QT and we have no way of knowing the truth. 

That is what I assume Shadoweh was inferring when she posted, "Tch, I told you it would have been cooler".  I'm guessing Shadoweh proposed something like "Let's say that you're the doc and I'm the tracker" in the QT. 

Anyway Im very tired after valentines day so I am not going to vote right now, sorry.  I need to think and review. 

The main basis that Shadoweh seemed to think I was scum was because of some insider knowledge that she believed I had, as stated here, here, here, and here. 

However we established beyond all manner of reason that not only did I not know who the doc was, but scum definitely knew, and they inexplicably refused to hit Shadoweh.  Also, since we know I'm town now because I didn't hammer, Shadoweh essentially has nil content this phase. 

So on the balance of things - looking at Mitsuki's actions this game versus Shadoweh's/CF7's actions, and the fact that Shadoweh in LYLO has no case to stand on.  Zakeri confirmed town. 

Out of Mitsuki and Shadoweh, Mitsuki played a better, more town-oriented game, and I learned from the game where I hammered Shadoweh in LYLO that a player who slam dunks scum is probably not scum. 

So I WILL sleep on it.  And give Zak/Shadoweh the opportunity to explore if there is any possibility Mitsuki is scum. 

But I don't think you'll find it.