~Hakurei Shrine~ > Rika and Nitori's Garage Experiments
※How to make Touhou derived work - Doujin & ZUN's Touhou guidelines
ShinesBright:
Hey~ Nice to see you Helepolis!
I didn't think what Saijee was asking was unrelated to the thread.
We are talking about guidelines and how some games can be on a quirky border of going over the guidelines.
Steam is absolutely not permitted so it's a totally relatable subject and valid reason to be curious of it. Is it not?
It's not just about Saijee's game. It's about every doujin game.
You guys are the experts and say this is okay.
This game seems to be able to utilize a function of Steams network without infringing on guidelines.
I don't know about Steam much so... Is there actually a way to play with other people online without going on steam?
This is the most important question. If the answer is yes than it is definitely within the guidelines and if not I think it's worth questioning.
I think its important for future western doujin game designers to be aware of their options regarding steam as this game has.
Tengukami:
Both Moogs and Drake have effectively answered this question re: Moogs. Steam is used strictly as a platform for TTS. TTS, in turn, is just empty cards. This is vastly different fron using Steam as a platform to sell a Touhou doujin game, should be obvious on its face and was already covered in the OP.
crescentia:
--- Quote from: N-Forza on January 26, 2015, 05:32:36 AM ---I also brought up the case of Type-Moon to him, and he clarified that he was talking specifically about works and not companies.
And "pure" doujin can't become indie because, at least in the example above, he meant stuff like fanworks, be it Touhou, anime, or any IP you don't own.
I'm still not 100% sure of why Cave Story doesn't fall in the middle along with Touhou, but that chart shouldn't be taken as gospel truth or anything.
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Like I said - I understand the meaning behind the diagram, but I don't like it because it's confusing and leaves certain things unsaid or misunderstood. The bottom line should be that if you're producing derivative work, you're playing with someone else's toys - in the case of Touhou, ZUN is kind enough to even give us a sandbox (the guidelines) where we're free to do as we please so long as we don't leave those guidelines. The Doujin vs. Indie discussion is one that is somewhat interesting, but ultimately irrelevant when you're playing with someone else's IP.
With regard to the current discussion, it's clear that ZUN restricts the use of particular platforms as distribution/publishing methods, as they are currently markets that reach beyond doujin channels. "Using Steam" in this case means you can't put your game up for download via Steam, not that you can't employ Steam's other functionality as a piece of software. Do you think it's outside of guidelines if you import your Touhou games into your Steam library so that you can access them easier? No, of course not. Furthermore, in this specific case, you're downloading Tabletop Simulator, a 3rd-party piece of software, via Steam, and using it to play a Touhou fangame that can only be found via Touhou fan-sites. If you think this is in violation, you might as well argue that your ISP is the one violating the guidelines whenever you engage in netplay in TH12.3 or 13.5, because you're using a 3rd-party system with reach beyond the original games.
Lastly, I'd still like a discussion on how Western music circles should offer their albums.
Calamity:
--- Quote from: Helepolis on January 24, 2015, 03:15:35 PM ---No, you cannot sell your work digitally anywhere, not even in Japan. (?)
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Does making commissioned artwork based on Touhou fall under this? Say someone tells me they want X Touhou character drawn so I do that on a computer and send them the illustration digitally in exchange for money. Should this be avoided?
Also, here are two existing examples that contrast with the point of not selling digitally(correct me if I'm wrong):
Rin Ginsuke
Imizu
Drake:
--- Quote from: Calamity on January 27, 2015, 10:52:55 AM ---Does making commissioned artwork based on Touhou fall under this? Say someone tells me they want X Touhou character drawn so I do that on a computer and send them the illustration digitally in exchange for money. Should this be avoided?
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Commissions are done between people, and unless you're going to take your commission and sell it somewhere else there is no problem with you throwing money at someone to make a thing just for you, nor accepting such an offer. It isn't really about whether it's digital or otherwise, it just isn't a commercial endeavour to begin with.
--- Quote from: Calamity on January 27, 2015, 10:52:55 AM ---Also, here are two existing examples that contrast with the point of not selling digitally(correct me if I'm wrong):
Rin Ginsuke
Imizu
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Good note. Bandcamp if anything is the main grey area, since there isn't really a precedent for its model. I don't think it's too problematic, but best practices would mean making it clear that it's a Touhou music arrange and composed by ZUN like any other doujin album would. Having it free to play probably helps.
About Melonbooks DL: In the original guidelines, distribution through doujin shops was already given exception, so the only part that should be in question is that it's for "download". We probably shouldn't be saying "no digital sales in any circumstance". Being downloadable in and of itself isn't really a problem; the reason that can potentially be an issue is because of the rules regarding distribution channels and exposure, which isn't an issue considering Melonbooks is a doujin shop. If a "Touhou-approved" large-scale download site could be anywhere out of the whole Internet, it would be at a doujin shop's site.