Puzzle & Dragons forever 17 - Star Vault Didn't Go So Well: I Was Nonplussed

[Suikama]

P U L L B O Y S:

Vamp (first pull always sucks)
Dark Chester (well I can get 100% skill lock resist now with dual chesters)
Dill Sirius (eh it's alright)

...NEED MORE STONES

[Janitor Morgan]

[09:57:03] <~rdj522> First ten pulls: +egg, angelit, RK, Yatagarasu
[09:57:29] <~rdj522> Second ten: trash
[09:57:52] <~rdj522> Third eight: +egg, gold keeper, baby tama
[10:02:04] <~rdj522> Skillups: 1/6 Echidna, 1/1 King Mastering (maxed!)

A good day so far; let's see if this continues when I do SSP farming later.

[Suikama]

welp if there's any time to iap i guess its now

Pierdra (fuck)
Dark Golem (FUCK)
Laila (well I didn't have her before)
Fire Swordsman (come on...)
RED ARMORED KNIGHT (...DAMMIT WRONG ONE)
Homura

Well I guess I have legit fire attackers now

Still bluh ._.

[Chaore]

don't worry suikama, just pull lu bu and three more dills and you're good :v

edit: also man if this carnival had valks i'd be down for it. ;;

[The Greatest Dog]

I keep getting I&I skillups for no reason. She's at skill level 5 out of 9 now and I've only fed her maybe seven fodders.

I can't blue healer without Valk or Hatsume though :c

[Thaws]

Nut skillups: 5/6

...its good to know that Isis` mom approves of me :3 :V

Hacker

I keep getting I&I skillups for no reason. She's at skill level 5 out of 9 now and I've only fed her maybe seven fodders.

I can't blue healer without Valk or Hatsume though :c

Only blue valk is truly a necessity in blue healers. Hatsume being a must is an old belief which used to be true but they've given blue healers so many choices (that are still mostly REM-only) now you'd do fine without her. (Tbh even if I ever pull a Hatsume I don't know if I'd put her in my team)

[Chaore]

I mean it's either or really.

They fulfill the same function in the end, Reine just has better stats overall and combos with the large amount of heartmakers you'll have.

There's something to be said about having two 5-turn orb changes on a row team however, and that's that it's very nice to have :v

[Janitor Morgan]

...now for the other one so I can run Tengu and/or Gaia at some point. :fail:

[Thaws]

I mean it's either or really.

They fulfill the same function in the end, Reine just has better stats overall and combos with the large amount of heartmakers you'll have.

There's something to be said about having two 5-turn orb changes on a row team however, and that's that it's very nice to have :v

Combo-ing with heartmaker is what makes Reine the essential one while Hatsume is more of a bonus.
You're going to need that burst power on blue healers.

[commandercool]

Hatsume is much worse than Reine on most blue healers, partly due to worse stats and awakenings but also partly due to her lack of synergy with the other orbchangers. She can't combo with Gabriel, Siren, or Ruka, and she eats the same color as Gabriel, Ruka, AND Andromeda. Some kind of team with her and Sharon as your orbchangers might be interesting, but initially I'm inclined to think it's pretty suboptimal.

Fine-tuned my Gabriel twinlits strategy and got it worked out to being pretty reliable. Haven't died yet, although dublits on the second floor synced on turn two are pretty threatening if that even happens (hasn't so far).

[Chaore]

Combo-ing with heartmaker is what makes Reine the essential one while Hatsume is more of a bonus.
You're going to need that burst power on blue healers.

I mean, that's a bonus more than an essentiality.

It's useful because it allows you to use some poverty cards, but it's by no means essential to make blue healer work. The 5 turn part is more important because you need to be able to change to obtain that burst, and both of them have that.

Not comboing is fine as long as you do things in the right order, or simply figure out how to work by changing different orbs.

Hatsume is much worse than Reine on most blue healers, partly due to worse stats and awakenings but also partly due to her lack of synergy with the other orbchangers. She can't combo with Gabriel, Siren, or Ruka, and she eats the same color as Gabriel, Ruka, AND Andromeda. Some kind of team with her and Sharon as your orbchangers might be interesting, but initially I'm inclined to think it's pretty suboptimal.

Fine-tuned my Gabriel twinlits strategy and got it worked out to being pretty reliable. Haven't died yet, although dublits on the second floor on turn two are pretty threatening if that even happens (hasn't so far).

Andromeda and Hatsume don't overlap, firstly. Andromeda is Fire->Water and Light->Heart.

Secondly, Ruka isn't an offensive card without Reine so that's fine really. If you don't have Reine, you're probably not using Ruka or Siren unless you're super poverty in which case you also don't care because hatsume is a godsend to you because she's still a fucking ninja, it's 2015 how do people forget they're fucking great.

Thirdly, You can not give a fuck about overlapping with Gabriel because he just goes dark->Heart so that overlap just allows you to pretend you have a Reine there. This is the same reason you don't care about gabriel and andromeda overlapping too ;v

Hell an Andromeda/Hatsume/Reine core offers all the orbchanges having Gabriel would (and infact, every orb change available to blue healers), with two of them on quicker cooldowns and no overlap if you're not particularly into dealing with order. Granted, Gabriel offers a skill block resist and more HP, so it's down to whether you're feeling a china girl is going to ruin your day or if you'd prefer to have more orb changes available at all times. Personally? I'd feel the orb changes are likely more important.

Double Andromeda is also an option for china girls.

Shit talking Ninjas is generally a really bad idea, your waifu is usually worse than them.


Also Sharon is shit forever I'm not really sure why you're even trying to compare a wizard to a ninja. Like, seriously. What the hell?

She's more of a gimmick pick alongside Gabriel for more skillblock resist.

[Suikama]

MUSE PLS

Prometheus
Wee Jas
Marine Rider
Riding Hood
Thor
Anima
Berserker Z
Farilion
Fairlion...
Strawberry Dragon
Thumbelina
Pierdra...
Asgard
Thumblelina holy fuck
Laila this is literally the worst
Melon dragon why
Toytops fuck this

[Chaore]

oh god suikama STOP

DON'T BE ME

DIDN'T I SAY THIS A MONTH AGO ;;

[Suikama]

i said i'd give it a shot for muse

but it was not worth

not in the least

[commandercool]

Typed up a big thing re: Hatsume, but my shitty breakroom internet connection apparently ate it and I'm not fucking retyping the whole thing, so here is summary:

-Oops, I fucked up Andromeda's active colors again. My bad again.

-I acknowledge that my blue healers experience is abnormal.

-At least in my case orbchange stacking matters a lot.

-Wish I had a Hatsume to try her if she is in fact that great, but I've never missed her.

-She is probably much more generally useful on Idunn than on Gabriel?

-I do have a loose understanding at best of how PAD math works so maybe my damage estimations are way off, but I don't think they're that bad in this case.

-Maybe blue healer prongs with double Reines could be a thing? She would be perfect there. Pending ultimate Sun Quan.

[Thaws]

i said i'd give it a shot for muse

but it was not worth

not in the least

Wait till you get a godfes overlapping with Muse up somehow if you're gonna whale tbh. that way at least you get better stuff (that you don't need).

I mean, that's a bonus more than an essentiality.

It's useful because it allows you to use some poverty cards, but it's by no means essential to make blue healer work. The 5 turn part is more important because you need to be able to change to obtain that burst, and both of them have that.

Not comboing is fine as long as you do things in the right order, or simply figure out how to work by changing different orbs.

I'd agree if not for the fact Blue Healers have very limited burst options, and that all their orb converters except Reine and Hatsume is a "X to blue, Y to heart" or double heartmaker thing.

There are three popular burst methods.
1. Sonia
2. China Girl+Ninja
3. Double Heartbreaker

Blue healers have none of those sadly, and without Reine you're not going to be able to change 3 colours into blue, 2 at max with Hatsume+Gab or Hatsume+Andro.
Anyways, I'll just leave it here that my point was as of now, Reine is essential for burst, Hatsume is more of a bonus, great member, and in no way I was claiming Hatsume is not a good member in blue healers.
But she's not as essential for blue healers than say, Andro teams or Sarasvati teams.
Just remember that Blue healers play differently from your Shiva in that it's a semi-stall team with >30k hp and >4k rcv but lower base ATKs.

commander has a much lower opinion of Hatsume which I assume is coming from him playing a Gab-central build where quick small bursts are completely useless.


On the topic of blue healers, Sonia Gran seemed to have stolen all the spotlight that no one really discussed Angels 2.0s.
Their LS have been tested to be x1.25 Hp/ATK or ATK/Rcv.
A problem with double I&I has always been that there's too many enhances. Especially if SQ uevo gives him awakenings so good he's a must-have in the team again.
So how does double Famiel leads or I&I/Famiel sound?
Double Famiel basically gives you 1.56/14/1, and the LS activation is so easy it's probably harder to not trigger it :v (Seriously, anyone think they should give China girls LS a type hp buff? These angels 2.0 basically have an easier activation in addition to higher atk multiplier and extra hp buff)
Sadly, Famiel's active have little synergy with other healer orb changers. Coincidentially, it works best with Gabriel which turns your board to B/G/H (2:1:1) which isn't too bad. It's also blue healers one of the two only full board changers, which I have to say is very nice to have with all the poison,jammer orbs they throw at you in higher end dungeon nowadays.

[Suikama]

*sigh*

the worst part isnt even all the wasted stones

its the fact that even after all these stones im not any closer to actually getting muse cause its not like his odds increase with every pull

i mean sure statistically speaking it kinda does, but still basically if these 85 stones can fail then the next could just as easy give nothing

gacha lyfe sux

Wait till you get a godfes overlapping with Muse up somehow if you're gonna whale tbh. that way at least you get better stuff (that you don't need).

pretty much i dont care about any other monster right now, all i need is this stupid knight >_>

meanwhile some guy gets three in like 6 pulls why

[Chaore]

I'd agree if not for the fact Blue Healers have very limited burst options, and that all their orb converters except Reine and Hatsume is a "X to blue, Y to heart" or double heartmaker thing.

There are three popular burst methods.
1. Sonia
2. China Girl+Ninja
3. Double Heartbreaker

Blue healers have none of those sadly, and without Reine you're not going to be able to change 3 colours into blue, 2 at max with Hatsume+Gab or Hatsume+Andro.
Anyways, I'll just leave it here that my point was as of now, Reine is essential for burst, Hatsume is more of a bonus, great member, and in no way I was claiming Hatsume is not a good member in blue healers.
But she's not as essential for blue healers than say, Andro teams or Sarasvati teams.
Just remember that Blue healers play differently from your Shiva in that it's a semi-stall team with >30k hp and >4k rcv but lower base ATKs.

I mean, like. Yeah.

That's why she's better. Not why she's essential.

I mean she's even less essential now that you don't need to make Ruka or Siren's active useful to you :v

You need one of her or Hatsume for quick orb changes more importantly so you can pull a row or two out when you're facing a midboss or the like. That's -more- important. That's really what you can't do without because even if you're semi-stall, getting caught flat active'd is bad.

You can definitely make a team work without Reine, you just can't be as active efficient, which admittedly is much more acceptable because blue healer has a huge glut of orb changes and you can basically stall for them as you mentioned. I mean, seriously, you can still change 3 colors to blue. You just need three actives instead of two.

In short- Team without Reine? Possible. Not as good, but obviously still works, especially now that there are more options. Team without Reine or Hatsume? Oh god what are you doing calm down (Actually, might work, Blue healer seriously has enough orb changes to make it :v)

I'll leave it at this- You don't need to be hyper deluxe efficient to make things work, but you do need a few bare essentials, and a five turn orb change is basically that for rows. I&I has an easier time of that too because she has perfect tanky stats and can make up for longer actives with stalling.



also for the record, i've been theorycrafting this shit since it was a thing and teambuilding is literally what i do thaws

lol

On the topic of blue healers, Sonia Gran seemed to have stolen all the spotlight that no one really discussed Angels 2.0s.
Their LS have been tested to be x1.25 Hp/ATK or ATK/Rcv.
A problem with double I&I has always been that there's too many enhances. Especially if SQ uevo gives him awakenings so good he's a must-have in the team again.
So how does double Famiel leads or I&I/Famiel sound?
Double Famiel basically gives you 1.56/14/1, and the LS activation is so easy it's probably harder to not trigger it :v (Seriously, anyone think they should give China girls LS a type hp buff? These angels 2.0 basically have an easier activation in addition to higher atk multiplier and extra hp buff)
Sadly, Famiel's active have little synergy with other healer orb changers. Coincidentially, it works best with Gabriel which turns your board to B/G/H (2:1:1) which isn't too bad. It's also blue healers one of the two only full board changers, which I have to say is very nice to have with all the poison,jammer orbs they throw at you in higher end dungeon nowadays.

Famiels pretty good, but I feel like he's a poor match for rows.

Especially if prong mania comes to SQ.

This also makes his active insanely more useful because you want to not flood the board with water with that so you have space between prongs.

His awakenings obviously are a bit of a dead drop as he gets no boost in prongs, but the sheer damage on everyone is higher because they don't need to worry about his lack of rows.

I mean I'm more eyeing that those are perfect U&Y colors. Like, if you don't have Kali he's now definitely an option for U&Y

[trancehime]

I know Sacchi was trying to do Trifruits with LMeta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdMCzU3UXoI

this video should help it's Kosuke do Trifruits with an entirely non-REM Healers team

[commandercool]

You can definitely make a team work without Reine, you just can't be as active efficient, which admittedly is much more acceptable because blue healer has a huge glut of orb changes and you can basically stall for them as you mentioned. I mean, seriously, you can still change 3 colors to blue. You just need three actives instead of two.

Do you think you can make "a team" (blue healers) without Reine, or "an I&I team"? I don't know what a Gabriel team without Reine would look like, but it might be possible. I guess with Andromeda it could probably work well enough. I don't know if U&Y healers is even a thing, but if they are they probably don't want Hatsume but might still work without Reine.

[Bio]

U&Y/Sun Quan/Yomi
Works without any other orb changers because U&Y already make a perfect board for themselves.

[Chaore]

Do you think you can make "a team" (blue healers) without Reine, or "an I&I team"? I don't know what a Gabriel team without Reine would look like, but it might be possible. I guess with Andromeda it could probably work well enough. I don't know if U&Y healers is even a thing, but if they are they probably don't want Hatsume but might still work without Reine.

I mean.

Both really.

For one Gabriel is not strictly blue healers and can use Siegfried  :getdown:

Edit: also yeah Hatsume isn't on U&Y's orb change list, but he has other options as such.

I don't think anyone's really deeply considered U&Y healer because really an enhance on 25x isn't hugely important (and also you can get the same effect as SQ by matching four orbs)

[hyorinryu]

I don't have a blue Valk, so I think I'm stuck with Seigfried. I think U&Y does whatever he wants with his prong enhanced 25x.  I just like having a ton of stats.

[Edible]

The advantage of U&Y healer is fallback options.  If you can't activate the 25x due to getting orbscrewed, SQ/Arcline/Sandalphon can, combined with the large number of TPA, still put out some decent damage in a pinch.

IMO there's better options to lessen the chance of getting orbscrewed, though.  (Kalis or Hanael come immediately to mind :V)

[Thaws]

Assuming one has both, imo U&Y still prefers Lkali over Famiel since lkali+umiyama is like the lkali+fuma combo which is real good. If you use Famiel, good luck getting more than 6 blues.

But then gungho's like here's a specially made Angel for umiyama so have a blue enhance orb awaken instead of blue row, and thus her leader potential is lowered :| though I&I/Famiel sounds like a good compromise. And that'd make no dupe alt dungeons possible for blue healers :v (oh wait I could've just use Reine leader for that)

[Chaore]

Assuming one has both, imo U&Y still prefers Lkali over Famiel since lkali+umiyama is like the lkali+fuma combo which is real good. If you use Famiel, good luck getting more than 6 blues.

But then gungho's like here's a specially made Angel for umiyama so have a blue enhance orb awaken instead of blue row, and thus her leader potential is lowered :| though I&I/Famiel sounds like a good compromise. And that'd make no dupe alt dungeons possible for blue healers :v (oh wait I could've just use Reine leader for that)

Yeah, I agree.

I'm more considering Famiel will be -far- easier for players to obtain than an Lkali. (Mind, we've had basically one every fest somehow...)

[Thaws]

Yeah, I agree.

I'm more considering Famiel will be -far- easier for players to obtain than an Lkali. (Mind, we've had basically one every fest somehow...)

I thought 5 star special gods basically have the same pull rates as other gods so LKali is easier to roll since she's there almost every fes
As evident by the number of Ronias people here seem to have :v

[Chaore]

I thought 5 star special gods basically have the same pull rates as other gods so LKali is easier to roll since she's there almost every fes
As evident by the number of Ronias people here seem to have :v

I mean.

pppppossibly? I've seen a sharp increase in special god pulls the last few godfest, but I've always known them to have low as hell rates (See literally never having any of them but grodin ever.)

[OverlordChirei]

I thought 5 star special gods basically have the same pull rates as other gods so LKali is easier to roll since she's there almost every fes
As evident by the number of Ronias people here seem to have :v

yet we still sit here with no verdandi

[hyorinryu]

Dear Gungho,


Please give green more ways to change dark and light.

From,
Perseus