Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread) (Read 212678 times)

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #750 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:06:19 AM »

Libel? Oh gosh, let's not be overdramatic, y'all.

Saijee, relax, dude. We can still save this.

Savory · « **Reply #751 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:10:45 AM »

Quote from: Alcoraiden on January 23, 2015, 04:03:06 AM

Fluffy, Savory, ad hominem doesn't help anyone. Take that shit elsewhere. Offline.

Ad hominem? I'm rightfully expressing my frustration about this situation. And frankly, what will help? Saijee's ignoring all of our points on how this whole ordeal has been blown out of proportion because of his failure to understand and confess his mistake.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #752 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:16:40 AM »

Good grief. Have you never heard of diplomacy? You get more flies with honey than vinegar. I'd be a defensive wreck too, if people were saying I didn't deserve to make my own projects and *I had no right to live.* What the fuck.

There's this thing called "word valence" and the idea that certain words have connotations and positive or negative value. When you say someone "is an idiot," you're shitting on their identity. You're calling their basic self an idiot -- a stupid person, a person with no intellectual value. Think about shit before you say it.

Edit: Guys, contact From Soy Sauce on Facebook PMs. They answer direct comments there, in private messages.

Savory · « **Reply #753 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:19:39 AM »

Forget it. I'm not gonna argue with you.

Colticide · « **Reply #754 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:19:53 AM »

If it's come down to this it might be best to close the topic to keep it from getting out of hand. At this point everyone seems to be in agreement on the things messed up but it keeps getting brought up. The decisions made by FSS are theirs and theirs alone and I really doubt we can persuade them otherwise. Lets lets this foolish name calling and arguing rest since it seems everything is over and done with. Please.

Pywackett-Barchetta · « **Reply #755 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:21:04 AM »

In any case, mudslinging isn't going to accomplish anything. Now, it seems very unlikely, or at least very surprising, that Team Shanghai Alice would outright ban the use of their characters, so as previously suggested, making sure the communication is translated as well as possible should be a priority. Doesn't matter who is or isn't an idiot beyond that until we get the actual confusion sorted out, and good can be done here.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #756 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:21:48 AM »

I guess I'll just repeat it again:

If anyone wants to work this out with FSS, talking here is probably not going to help. Do it their way. Go to Facebook, PM them. They answer personal PMs. Notably, people with diplomacy points and a good sense of Japanese are probably the best ones, but mainly people who aren't pissed about the whole situation.

Paz legalces · « **Reply #757 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:23:08 AM »

Fluffy, Savory; I understand your frustration but I think what is trying to be said here is that those kind of outbursts ain't exactly too condoned on this forum
If you really wish to express them though, you perhaps can do it over facebook pages where a lot more people would share your sentiment while it ain't too political correct over here
Meanwhile, such remarks here can really cheapen a thread that is meant to shown as supportive and helpful reading with objective facts; not a thread lambasting someone onto a spit roast

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #758 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:27:30 AM »

Enough of that. Moving on.

Eilaris · « **Reply #759 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:28:02 AM »

I think Saijee and FSS need to understand that the amount of (relative) publicity this incident has gotten means that it is no longer about just them anymore. The collective eyes of the Touhou fandom, both eastern and western, are watching developments here closely. FSS keep posting things hastily without fully verifying what they're talking about, and in the process they're spreading misinformation which is only making things spiral further and further out of control, while simultaneously dragging FSS' image (and with it, the entire Western Touhou fandom) through the mud. That is why people are passionate here, that is why people are reacting rashly, because some of us are f***ing scared that the Eastern side of things are going to look at this incident and decide it's easier to just update the guidelines to tell foreigners to f*** off and none of us want that to happen.

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #760 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:33:59 AM »

Quote from: Kilgamayan on January 23, 2015, 04:27:30 AM

Enough of that. Moving on.

When I said this, I meant it. Don't bring it up again, any of you.

zferolie · « **Reply #761 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:38:22 AM »

Quote from: Eilaris on January 23, 2015, 04:28:02 AM

I think Saijee and FSS need to understand that the amount of (relative) publicity this incident has gotten means that it is no longer about just them anymore. The collective eyes of the Touhou fandom, both eastern and western, are watching developments here closely. FSS keep posting things hastily without fully verifying what they're talking about, and in the process they're spreading misinformation which is only making things spiral further and further out of control, while simultaneously dragging FSS' image (and with it, the entire Western Touhou fandom) through the mud. That is why people are passionate here, that is why people are reacting rashly, because some of us are f***ing scared that the Eastern side of things are going to look at this incident and decide it's easier to just update the guidelines to tell foreigners to f*** off and none of us want that to happen.

pretty much exactly what you bolded and the end. this game I think has a lot of people feeling like it represents big western touhou games, and making it un touhou feels like a great loss

Shade_ · « **Reply #762 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:58:55 AM »

So I just got back from my night class. I read everything up to the last post. If I understand correctly, it looks like this thread will exist till Saturday right?

Therefore, I was wondering what points you wanted to discuss if any before the thread is closed about disagreements with the video? I hear there are some points people think are wrong and I am willin to listen and see what you guys think.

I could go back and make a big reply. But, I think it would be to easy to go off tangents. So one point at a time regarding problems with the video, I'll give the floor to you guys.

Alcoraiden · « **Reply #763 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:01:22 AM »

Shade: What we really want to know is if TSA *really did* tell you guys that Touhou was permabanned from FSS forever. Most of us have a hard time believing that, and we really also want to think that this is a misunderstanding, because of course both parties wish it could go full on Touhou. Can we have a discussion about this? Saijee seems to be worn out/etc., and a new fresh face might be able to help quite a bit here.

Is it possible for us to see the original Japanese email that you think contained this statement?

Ozzy · « **Reply #764 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:08:51 AM »

Shade: It seems that you all are blaming ZUN for changing his mind for seemingly no reason about your game's approval. However, if this DID indeed happen as you say, then it was probably because the IGG campaign was not deleted. Now, I know that it was impossible for you to delete it yourselves but ZUN did not, and you made no effort to explain that to him. So it's entirely likely that when he saw the page still up 3 days later he thought you didn't fulfill your end of the bargain. Did that possibility not occur to ANY of you? Please stop professing about ZUN supposedly unfairly cancelling this game when 1. we aren't sure if he meant to cancel just the campaign or the game itself and 2. it may have been a response to the page not being deleted immediately.

Reu · « **Reply #765 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:11:45 AM »

Quote from: Shade_ on January 23, 2015, 04:58:55 AM

So I just got back from my night class. I read everything up to the last post. If I understand correctly, it looks like this thread will exist till Saturday right?

Therefore, I was wondering what points you wanted to discuss if any before the thread is closed about disagreements with the video? I hear there are some points people think are wrong and I am willin to listen and see what you guys think.

I could go back and make a big reply. But, I think it would be to easy to go off tangents. So one point at a time regarding problems with the video, I'll give the floor to you guys.

My point towards the whole TSA taking down the IGG and pulling copyright

1.Yes you are in-fact infringing copyright with crowdfunding with IGG
2.Yes you do NOT have permission for the IGG campaign which is somewhat commercialization, you do not have permission for it but instead has permission to make the game in your own ability meaning without IGG whatsoever.

If you like could you please elaborate the part that says ZUN said no to everything?

Saijee · « **Reply #766 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:17:26 AM »

We are not allowed to publish the emails of TSA.

Quote

Unless the recipient has some duty of confidentiality (e.g., physician-patient, attorney-client, trade secret disclosed in communication), the recipient is free to share the information with anyone. However, under some circumstances, the sender might sue the recipient for publicity given to private life, under Restatement (Second) Torts ? 652D (1977).

Soure; http://www.rbs2.com/email.htm

Shade_ · « **Reply #767 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:27:28 AM »

To: Alcoraiden

I'll answer one point at a time. As Saijee stated, privacy laws on email are extremely limited, and if there is even a chance that we get sued for exposing private information, then we are not willing to take the risk. We are legally allowed to share the information of the email. But publishing it publicly uploading that information is not allowed. If TSA publicly declares that they allow us to share the email, then that is a different story. You will have to ask TSA for their permission to have the email be released. I don't feel like I have the ability to release the original Japanese text in public.

They stated that our use of the material (Touhou) had not been authorized, and was an infringement of copyright material. Now, it is true that this could be taken in multiple ways. But the most logical way that FSS can interpret it is that we have not been authorized to use Touhou material.

Reu · « **Reply #768 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:33:28 AM »

Quote from: Shade_ on January 23, 2015, 05:27:28 AM

To: Alcoraiden

I'll answer one point at a time. As Saijee stated, privacy laws on email are extremely limited, and if there is even a chance that we get sued for exposing private information, then we are not willing to take the risk. We are legally allowed to share the information of the email. But publishing it publicly uploading that information is not allowed. If TSA publicly declares that they allow us to share the email, then that is a different story. You will have to ask TSA for their permission to have the email be released. I don't feel like I have the ability to release the original Japanese text in public.

They stated that our use of the material (Touhou) had not been authorized, and was an infringement of copyright material. Now, it is true that this could be taken in multiple ways. But the most logical way that FSS can interpret it is that we have not been authorized to use Touhou material.

The most logical way is to talk to them about it.

Shade_ · « **Reply #769 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:38:51 AM »

Logically, when someone makes an accusation at someone but they want them to know that it implies something else, it is generally up to the accuser to make sure that the recipient understands the good will behind the accusation.

Reu · « **Reply #770 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:45:12 AM »

Quote from: Shade_ on January 23, 2015, 05:38:51 AM

Logically, when someone makes an accusation at someone but they want them to know that it implies something else, it is generally up to the accuser to make sure that the recipient understands the good will behind the accusation.

You're the one who wants to make the game right?
As I said before every thing they've said based on what you told me simply shows me that the enforced the guidelines when you couldn't.

Paz legalces · « **Reply #771 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:50:10 AM »

Alright Shade, may I ask to reconfirm thing: Was the Email addressing toward and through Indiegogo or was it a private email directly toward you guys; and what was the context of that email being sent? It would make a big difference

Shade_ · « **Reply #772 on:** January 23, 2015, 05:57:47 AM »

Yes, but reasonably, you would not expect someone who you accused to respond "Ok, is there any additional information behind your accusation you wanted to make sure I understood?"

We received the word for word notice of the copyright accusation by Mr. Fumio Oyamada, attached to the email IGG sent.

Reu · « **Reply #773 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:00:03 AM »

Quote from: Shade_ on January 23, 2015, 05:57:47 AM

Yes, but reasonably, you would not expect someone who you accused to respond "Ok, is there any additional information behind your accusation you wanted to make sure I understood?"

We received the word for word notice of the copyright accusation by Mr. Fumio Oyamada, attached to the email IGG sent.

So, the email wasn't even sent directly to you?

Shade_ · « **Reply #774 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:03:37 AM »

No, but it indirectly very clearly stated that the "accuser" Fumio Oyamada has presented "this" claim against you. Would you like to file a counter claim?

Paz legalces · « **Reply #775 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:04:01 AM »

If the email wasn't directly sent to you then all commonsense would dictate that it was most definitely meant for IGG for them to shut down the crowdfunding; but it would definitely have no bearing to the independent project as a "doujin" title
As mentioned before up in the thead; technically all doujin fangames violate copyrights so sending and email saying the project needs to be shutdown cause of copyright would make little sense; especially if it wasn't sent to you guys but to IndieGogo

Shade_ · « **Reply #776 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:14:40 AM »

Not true, the email stated that the author has not given authority for the material to be used. It did not specify "used how or for what reason". As such, the most logical interpretation is that all usage of the material has not been given to you "the accused".

tohosubs · « **Reply #777 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:15:00 AM »

I have some things to say, but for now:

Please, everyone, let go of this point about Team Shanghai Alice's email. If you watch the video, you'll note that Saijee has already suspended his education to focus on this project. It doesn't matter if it's extremely unlikely that Team Shanghai Alice actually forbade them from incorporating Touhou in their game at all. Given the events of the last few days and how much is on the line for Saijee, their decision to turn their project into a non-Touhou game is completely understandable. I think this is quite final, and we only add noise by trying to convince them otherwise.

Reu · « **Reply #778 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:19:15 AM »

Quote from: Shade_ on January 23, 2015, 06:14:40 AM

Not true, the email stated that the author has not given authority for the material to be used. It did not specify "used how or for what reason". As such, the most logical interpretation is that all usage of the material has not been given to you "the accused".

Why would they need to elaborate on any of that to IGG?

This is all going back to round 1.
You were never given the right to use it in a crowdfunding environment
This is correct.

Paz legalces · « **Reply #779 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:25:26 AM »

I am not trying to convince them otherwise because by all mean right now it is most definitely the best course for them to do something that is un-Touhou related given the negative PR the project has got
What I want to clear out instead is this allegation that Zun has shut down their project because that is a claim that would damage Zun integrity; as can be seen in the comment section of that video how much anti-Zun sentiment has been shown
Shade/Saijee; by all mean please reconfirm thing with the email that has communicated with you before one more time because even if you have decided to cooly withdraw the Touhou Doujin scene and into an Indie gamedev... the damage against Zun integrity would still stand... and these damages are from the claims and assumptions that has been constantly made so far
By all mean, please clear out this one last matter before you withdraw the scene as your group is the only one with the capability of doing so; it may not matter much to you... but it would somewhat help reclaim some loss confidence this project has caused toward the Touhou creator... if you guy yourself still consider being fan of Touhou project then clearing out this claim would be one last saving grace you can perform, surely