Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[Alcoraiden]

Ah, okay. I did see that part; I was wondering if there was something I had missed that had implied ZUN was gearing up or something.

[Flandre5carlet]

As far as I'm aware, anyway; there is no action being taken so far, only users here reacting to ItohKuni's assumptions about law and all that.

[Helepolis]

There aren't direct actions taken yet but that is the question. Ruw-san noticed that the funding is still not cancelled on IGG (See his tweets), so he might forward it to ZUN (like initially he did about the crowdfunding). He also questioned in a tweet regarding the issue whether Saijee & co even understand the situation. Above analysis leads to my quote from Itohkuni that they have no idea what they are dealing with.

As long as the funding isn't forcefully stopped and money isn't returned, this is going to end up bad. Like a train accelerating and soon to crash. It isn't that the brakes on this train don't work. It is just that Saijee refuses to use the brakes.

Eastern fans aren't happy. Despite of what on Youtube is claimed, there are more frowns than support. The ones supporting probably can be compared to the average youtuber who are just as clueless. But majority of the eastern fan damn well knows how the Doujin scene works.

[Tengukami]

And Touhou "fan" entitlement reaches its apogee. So done with this.

[Eilaris]

Hence what I said earlier and what (I think) others previously have noted in the thread: as far as I'm aware, Indiegogo does not offer an actual cancellation option on a flexible funding campaign once the first contribution is received.  Assuming that's correct, there is in fact no actual way they can close the indiegogo campaign short of ZUN filing a DMCA claim and having indiegogo forcefully remove it; presumably this would be the case because with a flexible funding campaign, the money is delivered much quicker, whereas with a fixed funding campaign the money is delivered only at the end of the campaign and only if the funding goal was achieved (otherwise, no money changes hands).

tl;dr this is a hell of a catch-22 situation they got themselves into (and continue to dig deeper), I'm not really seeing any way they can fully comply with both sets of guidelines binding them here at the same time.  To be clear, though, that is entirely their fault for going into this mess headfirst without doing adequate research; honestly, if I were in their position (and assuming what I said above were true), I'd probably politely contact Oyamada-san (through someone capable of speaking fluent enough Japanese to conduct such affairs), explain the problem above with regard to the campaign, that it cannot be voluntarily canceled due to IGG's own guidelines, and ask him for guidance, possibly even raising the suggestion of just filing a DMCA notice on the campaign itself (which, in theory, _should_ force all the money to get refunded).  But the bottom line here pretty much is that as I understand it, he cannot 100% comply with both guidelines in play, and it's fairly obvious which one he has to violate (and unfortunately it's the one capable of getting him sued).

One of the most frustrating things about this whole situation to me (as a relatively uninvolved bystander) is just trying to explain the levels of culture clash in play here, because most of my friends aware of the situation are effectively "secondaries" (for all that I hate to use that term) and don't really understand what the fuss is about. 

[Moogs Parfait]

I'm trying really hard to stay out of this, but no one else is saying it: in no sane country can you be contractually bound to perform an illegal activity.  If one does not follow ZUN's rules it becomes copyright infringement, public intent is as good as doing so.  IGG can't force FSS to fullfill their perks and infringe on copyright.

[Eilaris]

I'm trying really hard to stay out of this, but no one else is saying it: in no sane country can you be contractually bound to perform an illegal activity.  If one does not follow ZUN's rules it becomes copyright infringement, public intent is as good as doing so.  IGG can't force FSS to fullfill their perks and infringe on copyright.

This is totally correct, but the only way IGG can be notified of the infringement is for ZUN himself or an authorized representative of him to submit a copyright claim to shut down the campaign.  Until then, they have no knowledge of any infringement because they don't proactively monitor the content of campaigns (afaik).

[Soul Devour]

This is totally correct, but the only way IGG can be notified of the infringement is for ZUN himself or an authorized representative of him to submit a copyright claim to shut down the campaign.  Until then, they have no knowledge of any infringement because they don't proactively monitor the content of campaigns (afaik).

Ha, remember when Saijee said that the Touhou GS Kickstarter being cancelled was completely different from other Kickstarters being taken down due to copyright claims? Seems like he's bound to eat those words soon.

Edit: >_> Maybe I'm being too hasty.

[Helepolis]

@ Moogs & Eilaris,  read Drake's post here https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158421.html#msg1158421 He mentioned regarding this:

In fact, I'll quote Drake and mark the part he quoted from IGG site.

Furthermore, I don't buy the excuse that FSS is legally obligated to deliver Perks and not refund if "asked" by individual contributors:

Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner.

Meanwhile, FSS is currently presenting the situation as: they will refund the contributions by default, unless asked in the email they send out to specifically keep the Perk and not be refunded. However, I think that this obfuscates the truth and implies "well, it's ok if you still want the Perk and for us to keep the money, just ask us", which you would expect many people to go for (and from the campaign comments, people are eating up that rhetoric). Instead, what should be said is that they've been asked to take down the campaign by representatives for Team Shanghai Alice and refund all contributions, and that if the contributor wants to legally enforce FSS to fulfill their Perk or offer something similar, that they have little choice but to comply. Meanwhile, fulfilling their Perk does not seem to preclude refunding their contributions, either.

Like Mr. T says: Jibba Jabba.

Saijee is simply trying to let the campaign end, regardless of violation of Doujin guidelines (they obviously don't care, their stance clearly shows this). Will cash in the money and keep the ones who don't wish a refund (still violating the guidelines). Even if this is, according to Saijee, "satisfactory resolution" between the campaign holder and funder, it doesn't mean that they are doing legal things because they have been violating (and still are) violating the ZUN guidelines. The whole case smells and proof is not provided until this very moment. I wouldn't be surprised if anywhere between now and soon they will receive an official warning to asap undo the crowdfunding. Maybe IGG already received a copyright claim from ZUN.

PS:
I am undoing my apology by calling Ignorance, immature and impatient before. Because Saijee isn't manning up to tell the story here and basically has abused people's goodwill, support and advice including on advertising his game.

Even if he isn't obliged to answer to anything. I see that as a major backstab and insult to our forum community. I can clearly say that both as a Touhou fan game developer in Danmakufu and as Moderator of RikaNitori, I am highly disappointed. And I will put this thread as an example on "How to not Doujin as a western fan" in the FAQ and Information Thread once it all is dealt by ZUN.

Speaking of that, perhaps I should just find a method to relay a proper message to Yonjin-san or Ruw-san of this all and alert them about the deal with the "cancellation" and violation of the guidelines.

[Flandre5carlet]

Speaking of that, perhaps I should just find a method to relay a proper message to Yonjin-san or Ruw-san of this all and alert them about the deal with the "cancellation" and violation of the guidelines.

That could probably help. Sadly my Japanese is subpar, so there's not much I could do to help with that.

[Ozzy]

Ha, remember when Saijee said that the Touhou GS Kickstarter being cancelled was completely different from other Kickstarters being taken down due to copyright claims? Seems like he's bound to eat those words soon.

Well he was technically right about that. That Kickstarter was not taken down by an official copyright claim but the developers decided in light of ZUN's hesitation to approve it (or outright disapproval) to cancel it themselves. There were also a variety of other problems as well.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

From the time I went to bed, woke up, and caught up with assignments and other academic duties, I see that this situation has escalated far beyond what I had expected. A few members even brought up legal, as in possible-court-case issues. At this point all I can say is that FSS needs to do something very soon, or else this entire project, and I mean game, and everything associated with it, will go down in flames. What's worse, the reputation of the Western fanbase might be damaged, along with stricter policies on TSA's end.

What we need now is communication, and by that I mean solid, unambiguous exchanges between the responsible parties. As said earlier,

It isn't that the brakes on this train don't work. It is just that Saijee refuses to use the brakes.

this situation isn't exactly at the point of no return, and the optimist in me still believes that a turn for the worst can be avoided. How that happens is well-beyond my reach, so all I can do is give suggestions. If it does end up that TSA flexes their legal muscle and steps in with a filing of copyright infringement, I can't expect anything good (in terms of TSSB development) to come out of that. On the other hand, I would be in complete support of TSA's actions should they choose to go down that route, since from what I can gather this bad ending can still be avoided, and that it was deliberately chosen to be left on its crash-course.

[Omegahugger]

Speaking of that, perhaps I should just find a method to relay a proper message to Yonjin-san or Ruw-san of this all and alert them about the deal with the "cancellation" and violation of the guidelines.

For what it's worth you have my vote on this course of action..... It's clear that FFS feels they've done their part in "making this right" and are dismissing negative criticism as just plain negativity at this point. It seems easier to stick with YouTube and Facebook, where fans of their project are raining down praise, than to acknowledge problems still exist.

What's frustrating to me is that, regardless of their intentions, their fans seem to be taking a "ZUN is being a dick to FSS" attitude because they're only seeing one side of the story. If something bad happens to the game because of all of this you can bet none of those people will be understanding. Seems like the gap between WTC and ETC will just widen further regardless of the outcome at this point.....

Blah.... This is just depressing. I think things can still be salvaged but I doubt the effort that fixes this situation will be on FSS's part.

[Ozzy]

Ok, I'm making a post here because it seems to be impossible to get you to come back to the shrinemaiden (motk) forums.

It is my understanding that you are afraid to automatically and forcibly reimburse people as it may go against IGG's rules to deliver on campaign promises. This isn't completely true, however. As long as you continue to keep these donations in exchange for campaign perks (regardless of whether the campaign is still officially going) you are STILL violating ZUN's guidelines, which is also COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. IGG cannot legally force you to engage in copyright infringement. I understand you may be caught in a trap where you cannot please both TSA and IGG, but I implore that you treat TSA as the more important party in this situation. Again, there shouldn't be any way for IGG to force you to keep campaign promises if doing so violates copyrights.

Also, please don't give me any of that "oh well TSA only told us to shut the project down, not to reimburse people." Come on, you have to know damn well that that was implied, seeing as you still are breaching guidelines by using money raised by crowdfunding. You're abusing a loophole in what was said in the email so that you can keep the money for the game. Even if that's not what's actually happening, that's what it's starting to look like.

At this point, although I know it's unlikely, I wish TSA would just hit this IGG campaign with a DMCA takedown notice, so that way the money will HAVE to all be given back and this mess will be over. You keep digging yourself into a bigger hole every day that this catastrophe continues.

Please, just reimburse everyone, cancel perks, and allow everyone who still wants to contribute to do so, on the understanding that you can't promise special rewards anymore. If people actually stubbornly demand their perks, you can deal with them on a case by case basis. Explain to them that promising the perks is going against ZUN's guidelines. I anticipate that there is a very low likelihood of that actually happening in light of this controversy, but you seem to be assuming that nearly everyone will demand their perks.

I REALLY want this game to succeed and for it to be done in a way the pleases TSA. I'm sorry if I sound bitter in this comment but I really hope you read and consider all I said.

I just posted this comment on that video. Since they seem to be ignoring this thread, maybe they'll respond to me there.

Edit: Tell me if there's anything I should add/change

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

their fans seem to be taking a "ZUN is being a dick to FSS" attitude because they're only seeing one side of the story

I'd even venture into unclear territory and say that most of those people won't make an effort to know the other side. And it just so happens that to the greater majority, that "other side" is the official side whose opinions and actions are as "close to the law" as what counts under that expression.

Blah.... This is just depressing. I think things can still be salvaged but I doubt the effort that fixes this situation will be on FSS's part.

Yes, it is, especially for the WTC that's just starting to gain a foothold within the global community. There's not much time left, and one way or the other something big will happen. The repercussions left behind by that will largely depend on how different people react.

I just posted this comment on that video. Since they seem to be ignoring this thread, maybe they'll respond to me there.

Edit: Tell me if there's anything I should add/change

Looks good to me. I just hope that it will be taken into consideration by its intended recipients.

The "nearly everyone will demand their perks" notion is faulty, because in my opinion the donors can't demand anything if a refund is made. Please note that's not something wrong about your post. I just want to reiterate that fact again.

[Ozzy]

The "nearly everyone will demand their perks" notion is faulty, because in my opinion the donors can't demand anything if a refund is made. Please note that's not something wrong about your post. I just want to reiterate that fact again.

But apparently that's part of IGG's rules. Each campaign runner must deliver on all promises made, and apparently people can demand that a perk be given to them. But I suppose it's not clear whether reimbursement negates that claim or not. In any case, the guidelines say to work with each person to come to a mutual understanding. There is nothing, however, that states that this arrangement must include the original perks if they are not possible to give (if that makes any sense, wording might not be very good)

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

apparently people can demand that a perk be given to them

(not really a question for you unless you know the answer to it)
Under what grounds? I still fail to see how any sort of demand can be made, at least one that's legally-backed, if contributions are refunded in full.

work with each person to come to a mutual understanding. There is nothing, however, that states that this arrangement must include the original perks if they are not possible to give (if that makes any sense, wording might not be very good)

Now, that means it's possible to refund the contributions and leave it there. That sounds like a mutually-arranged state of understanding, right? And to further go on about that, in this situation the original perks ARE in fact impossible/illegal to give.

I think your wording made sense.

[Saijee]

I still haven't read anything on this forum including whatever the post immediately before this one is. People on YT have been saying it looks like "I'm not coming back to MotK".

It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves. 

[Ozzy]

(not really a question for you unless you know the answer to it)
Under what grounds? I still fail to see how any sort of demand can be made, at least one that's legally-backed, if contributions are refunded in full.

Actually, I think you're right. The IGG rules that were quoted by FSS earlier are not clear on that. In fact, it can be understood from that that a refund is the absolute last resort that a campaign runner can use to placate the backers. Nowhere does it say a backer has the right to demand perks if a full refund is being given, just as someone who bought a recalled product cannot demand the product back if they're being refunded.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves. 

So now that you're here, can you please explain how you're going to fix this problem that's been going on, in the least-destructive manner? Some people are fearing possible legal altercations, and it would put a lot of us at peace of mind if something mutually beneficial can be done.

[Omegahugger]

It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.

I'm just saying but I don't think you're investing your time in the right areas..... Please don't take the problems this game is facing so lightly.  I think everyone wants to see this succeed, but not at the cost of WTC <-> ETC relations. YouTube/Facebook supports can wait a few days if it means being able to clear up the problems.

[Reu]

I still haven't read anything on this forum including whatever the post immediately before this one is. People on YT have been saying it looks like "I'm not coming back to MotK".

It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.

The reason why I and others even tell you to come here is BECAUSE there are also things you need to respond to as well.

You're the reason why this thread is here
to some extent we all care just as much as the people on YT.

though not the same on the level of ignoring the copyright.

[Ozzy]

I still haven't read anything on this forum including whatever the post immediately before this one is. People on YT have been saying it looks like "I'm not coming back to MotK".

It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.

I understand that this thread has a lot of stuff to be read and I had thought that you were just focusing your attention elsewhere. But until your post now, I had no way of knowing that for sure. Like Helepolis said earlier, making a brief post like that to let us know you're still there would have eased our concerns. Take your time reading the posts before answering, we can wait.

[Saijee]

Still going off of YT comments and haven't read anything here:

As far as IGG's thing about copyright problems. In the email Shanghai Alice sent us: Fumio included a concise and clear paragraph that explained that this is not an issue of copyright.

[Ozzy]

Still going off of YT comments and haven't read anything here:

As far as IGG's thing about copyright problems. In the email Shanghai Alice sent us: Fumio included a concise and clear paragraph that explained that this is not an issue of copyright.

Can we see this email? We don't doubt your accuracy per say but would like to read its contents for ourselves. We might interpret his words differently.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

Fumio included a concise and clear paragraph that explained that this is not an issue of copyright.

Not trying to be nitpicky or accusational, but can you post that email, in verbatim, somewhere here? If you feel that that's not the best thing to do, can you at least PM it to a user that has good knowledge of Japanese? At this point I'd like to see some raw evidence, especially those pertaining to something as important as this.

[Disgaeafan1]

Hey guys,

Saijee is asking around on Youtube what page of this thread he should start reading on since someone told him he should review the thread before issuing a  Report listing frequently asked questions. I'm not sure because alot of it was circuitous and we have periodic summaries of information. Any ideas?

[Ozzy]

Hey guys,

Saijee is asking around on Youtube what page of this thread he should start reading on since someone told him he should review the thread before issuing a  Report listing frequently asked questions. I'm not sure because alot of it was circuitous and we have periodic summaries of information. Any ideas?

He is, I'd answer but I don't know the best place to start myself.

[Flandre5carlet]

He should just read from whenever he stopped reading which is a while ago...

[Disgaeafan1]

He should just read from whenever he stopped reading which is a while ago...

That would be great, but I'm not sure he knows where that is, given that it has been such a long time. In addition, there was quite a bit of discussion that went on after TSA's email response was written that didn't go anywhere, or just built up to later conclusions. After these conclusions were made, more discussion began. I'm just not sure where that was.

Edit- Page 11 has the translated Yonjin conversation on it. I think that might be a good starting point. You guys?