Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 212439 times)

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #150 on: January 15, 2015, 07:10:41 AM »
By "it", I meant the Indiegogo campaign in particular.

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #151 on: January 15, 2015, 07:11:14 AM »
If that's how you look at it, go ahead.  A content creator of any sort is nothing without their followers.

Do you honestly think I'm just trying to get a pretty penny?
We are still going to go through with this, the game will be made no matter what.

A content creator has followers because of what they make, followers do not make the content creator. But I'm not saying to not value those who support you, they are important, but they don't make you who you are.

I have never said your doing this out of greed, I was here when you started posting this game on the forums and tried my best to defend things from a different point of view and give my two cents on things posted, even if those where never considered or never mattered it makes no difference. I want this game, I always wanted this game made. I'm just worried about the attitude of the project now compared to how it was when it started, for me personally it was the indiegogo thing and then the non contact with Zun part.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #152 on: January 15, 2015, 07:24:57 AM »
I'm pretty sure the IGG will be fine. As ZUN hasn't done anything yet about it and it's been more than a day, it really seems to me like it's not all that big of a deal to him.  That doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying to contact him.

@ Colticide, It's an interesting point, though from my expirence, there isn't really any point in a making an artwork that nobody is going to see, therefore the artwork should be made for the people, with the people as the more important part of the artwork.

Thanks for clearing that up, as I was not sure what you were trying to say up to this point.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #153 on: January 15, 2015, 07:38:52 AM »
Saijee, nothing personal but your attitude and the way you respond to my (specifically) and people's posts pointing out crucial aspects just screams ignorance and impatience. I am amused of your political dodge on my very direct and simple question so I assume you're just being ignorant which is in my eyes just immature behaviour. Ignoring Cuc and Forza especially who are well informed and closer to the frontline than you is making it even worse.

I am a realistic person and I am not going to go pretend to be all "ganbare kawaii sugoi daijoubu!" with this Smash fangame. Objectively I hope to see the misunderstanding cleansed but so far I am not convinced at all.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2015, 08:12:37 AM »
I'm not actually dodging your question so much as forgetting it's there as I respond to others. It's part of what happens when I'm trying to make sure to get all the YT and FB comments covered while responding to FB PMs.  I don't know if you've noticed, but every time you ask the question it there are a lot of other comments from other people on this thread that I have to read through, which causes me to forget your question.  I think I've already explained this  tunnel visioned weakness of mine~

Though now that I'm here and your the only post to comment to:

First of all, there is nothing wrong with making an fan-work crowed funding campaign for anything. Such was the case for Super Mario Warfare among other projects.
Second, I was waiting for quite a while for that response that never came.
Third: since I didn't get a response for some time, I wanted to show that there is a demand for this project.
Forth: in the off chance that this does get shut down as an indiegogo, then there is really no harm done, so I don't actually have anything to lose except for potential means to get the game done faster.

As far as this "impatience" and "ignorance" and "immature " thing you are alluding to goes. I'm still waiting on ZUN to make contact, and in the mean time, all I can do relating to the project is to respond to peoples comments and do it with hast.

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2015, 08:35:31 AM »

First of all, there is nothing wrong with making an fan-work crowed funding campaign for anything. Such was the case for Super Mario Warfare among other projects.

Third: since I didn't get a response for some time, I wanted to show that there is a demand for this project.

But the issue that a lot of us are bringing up is not fan works as a whole but we are bringing up touhou in general. We aren't talking about super mario but touhou, and the doujin community has guidelines about crowd funding for Touhou. Bringing up X game and saying it had crowd funding isn't talking about Y game when Y has restrictions compared to X.

There are ways to let him know that it's wanted with out showing him how much money the game is getting, Zun isn't a man about money and it's not gonna speak to him like it would bigger companies. He's not in the industry for a profit, he's an artist in the field, musician first, developer last.
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Sedrife

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2015, 08:35:37 AM »
ZUN always had a policy of "No Response" to these kinds of things, until it gets to a point where it stirs up too much controversy amongst fans, then he will intervene, usually against the originator's favor.  For him, he has a duty to keep the integrity of his works and his closer Touhou fans (namely, those Japanese fans who are more than happy to bury you alive with the misconceptions they carry).

Saijee, to work with Japanese people like ZUN, you need to make connections & contacts with the people around him.  Prod those around close to him for approval, and have them put a few of good words on behalf of you.  @Ruw seems to be number one choice, and/or @dnasoftwares, @heppoko, Okonogi, etc.  Ask GS System on how they got hold of ZUN.  Put some bridges, do some social connections.

As you said, ZUN said just a single line that leaves a lot of ambiguity and misconception, and has been almost impossible to reach him for you.  The truth is, the more this gets dragged, the more controversy and misconception it will spark among the fans.  It is true that we are all "jumping to conclusions from few misunderstandings with such little information", but that this is what fuels the very nature of Touhou fandom.  ZUN is a really difficult person to reach, and even when you reach him and make him understand the real thing, he wouldn't be in a position to say anything in your favor, and the misunderstanding is really all up to you to clear it.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 08:42:57 AM by Sedrife »

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #157 on: January 15, 2015, 08:48:11 AM »
Fair enough. Because you had quoted my post and replied in such a way that it felt really iffy to me. Hence my replies. I apologise for any rudeness or upsetting on my part.

About your tunnel vision weakness, try to step away from it all for a moment and grant yourself some rest. Then try to look at the situation again, it will all be more clear. I can imagine you're currently being bombarded from every corner of the internet with both positive and negative things so it can feel annoying as well.

PS Tohomemory also copypasted the article: http://blog.livedoor.jp/tohomemory/archives/42300254.html  so you might want to contact Tohomemory as well to clear up the misunderstanding about WiiU. Maybe request a reblog clearing things up.


N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #158 on: January 15, 2015, 10:00:06 AM »
First of all, there is nothing wrong with making an fan-work crowed funding campaign for anything. Such was the case for Super Mario Warfare among other projects.
Actually, there kind of is something wrong, especially if you don't have permission/rights. The only one off the top of my head that's gone through is the River City Ransom remake, because they actually worked out everything with the rights' holder ahead of time. Every other unauthorized Kickstarter was cancelled. Also, the Super Mario Warfare game took out all the copyrighted characters, if I remember correctly, and that didn't even deliver in the end.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #159 on: January 15, 2015, 02:41:44 PM »
I would not ignore what people are saying Saijee. They all bring up valid points. You may think its good and have a plan even if you can;t use indiegogo, but its much better to play it safe. Perhaps jumping ahead before hearing from ZUN wasn't the smartest, but it does seem that ZUN may not have cared about this except for the Wii U part. Thats what it seems like that caught his attention the most.

Right now, you and the rest of your group need to contact every news site that brought up the Wii U part and ask them to make a new article to correct that information. yes you clarified it in your FAQ video, but its better to get it out in the news as well. Thats How ZUN saw it, and he seems to ONLY be looking at what news articles have been saying.

I also think reaching out to other people close to ZUN to explain whats going on is best to. Get their approval and ZUN should go along as well. E-mail them, tell them you have been having a hard time contacting him, since you say you can communicate well with him due to people to translate for you, and explain the situation. Present it throughly, explain everything, talk about why you need to do it this way due to have things work in america vs how it works in japan, and go from there. Thats the best thing you can do right now. Spend as much time as you guys can contacting ZUN, his close people, and news sites both in japan and america, and get everything squared away.

And don't take what the people say here personally. They may sound harsh but they want this to succeed too. Everyone wants to see a raise of american made Touhou games, and this is a good starting point to get the ball rolling. ZUN has been slowly opening his eyes to the american fan base. We need to keep that going.

There is that odd feeling that bigger studios should be able to use their own money, but why do they need a publisher in the first place? It's because those studios don't have the money to make it themselves unless your also a publisher as well as a developer.(best one I can think of is SquareEnix [BTW also a Japanese company], though they have expressed interest in crowdfunding themselves but Squeenix would be the eyes on the project to make sure those games get done and do what is promised, but since this hasn't been done before it has some negativity behind it.) We see how expensive it can be, one fighting game character is expensive thanks to Lab 0 giving us information on what all the expenses  go into. A lot of good games have come from it too, but sadly I feel for wayforward, they have a publisher but they never get the funding they need or the help, Majesco needs to die for their horrid attitude towards their developers. (Gaah again I'm sorry! I don't get to talk about this stuff with people!)


Yeah I understand a lot of bigger studios need publishers, and I loath publishers. I feel they hurt a game more then help, stiffeling the game with their need to make money. Look at Destiny. I think Activision ruined it. There was so much promise but they wanted to cut the game up so much and have so much DLC that I think it ruined the whole idea. And they are already talking about destiny 2, not understanding how a 10 year game works. Wayforward is another example. Most publishers only help them make the licensed games they are forced to make to get by. All their own games are forced to be much smaller because they are using their own profits. Thats why they turned to us for Half genie hero, because publishers wouldn't fund a game with a female protag and 2d art style and still let them have their freedom.

Lab Zero and Skullgirls is another example. The publisher pretty much screwed them over, and they were forced to turn to us to make all the DLC. Only after the publishers saw they can make money on a genius fighting game did they come back and help. I know there were other cercumstances like an unrelated lawsuit that publisher was going through so couldn't pay them, but still.

ANother game that I liked that got killed due to their publishers was Blade Kitty. The plan for that game was to be a multi-episode series, but sine the first only sold poorly, they decided they didn't want to publish any more... and even if the creator wanted to, he wasn't allowed to, since the publisher owned the rights to the game, and refused the creator to work on it or try to release any dlc.

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #160 on: January 15, 2015, 02:58:14 PM »
For what it's worth, Ruw tweeted that even though they were mistaken about the game going to be on the Wii U, he still thought the crowdfunding bit was the bigger foul.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #161 on: January 15, 2015, 03:13:34 PM »
For what it's worth, Ruw tweeted that even though they were mistaken about the game going to be on the Wii U, he still thought the crowdfunding bit was the bigger foul.

Was that a tweet I missed? I just saw the one commenting on the Wii U part.

I think that the anti-crowdfunding feeling in japan really has to do with how different the feelings of indie developers are between the 2 countries. In japan perhaps its easier to make a game on your own and still survive, but it seems near impossible to do it in America. Plus we have seen so many amazing and profound games being made through crowdfunding that we accept it, and only recently has japan start following (Little Witch Academia 2, Clannad, Mighty no 9).

I have a feel if one could explain to them why doing it the normal doujin way just isn't possible, or much harder, in japan that they may understand. ZUN does have to update stuff though if touhou is ever going to be made outside of japan though.

Flandre5carlet

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #162 on: January 15, 2015, 03:14:44 PM »
I think N-Forza is talking about this tweet: https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/555585455027023873

I'm having trouble understanding what the replies are saying though.

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #163 on: January 15, 2015, 03:19:51 PM »
Actually, there kind of is something wrong, especially if you don't have permission/rights. The only one off the top of my head that's gone through is the River City Ransom remake, because they actually worked out everything with the rights' holder ahead of time. Every other unauthorized Kickstarter was cancelled. Also, the Super Mario Warfare game took out all the copyrighted characters, if I remember correctly, and that didn't even deliver in the end.
Remind me, but wasn't MLP: Fighting is Magic also crowdfunded or was that pulled before that happened? I don't remember.

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #164 on: January 15, 2015, 03:22:08 PM »
I will just echo everything zferolie said, with a few other things.

This really does look like a big cultural divide here. Japan doesn't like the idea of outside-funded doujins and perhaps think it sounds greedy; we think it's a sign of bucking the corporate system and enabling the little guy. I hope we can clarify that, and that a discussion can be had, and even if people don't change any minds on either side, *the dialogue happening* is an accomplishment first off. Slow and steady wins this race for anyone involved.

Saijee -- you really need to take initiative. Don't drop a single tweet and wait. Go talk to the other people in this conversation on the Japan side. Actively post about the fact that the Wii U thing is a misconception. Make sure your voice gets heard. One little line will get drowned; you have to actively start this conversation. "The ball is in their court" will not work now. It especially seems like Ruw is someone who ZUN listens to and who should be spoken to. But there was a list earlier, so listen to that. Also keep on top of news -- Helepolis posted a link you will really want to see and address. You have to be proactive and cut down the misinformation before it spreads.

I disagree that ZUN has an obligation to his Japanese fans over anyone else. Like I said, and like ZUN is figuring out, this fandom is international. There's nothing about the Japanese fans other than numbers that make them inherently better in any way. Assuming there is comes dangerously close to the "primary/secondary fan" kind of trope that we wrinkle our noses at here.

Sedrife: It's kind of weird that ZUN has a "no response" kind of behavior but that he asks us to ask permission. You really can't have isolation and discussion at the same time. It's...contradictory. That's strange of him to do.

Forza: Kickstarter is way more intense than Indiegogo about its campaigns. Perhaps that will be an advantage here? Not sure.

Colticide: I think the point isn't to impress ZUN with money. The point is to show him how many people, especially Western folks who he now knows are a big thing since AWA, really want this to happen. We're showing him we have presence and we are enthusiastic about his universe, his game, and fan works based on those.

"As far as this "impatience" and "ignorance" and "immature " thing you are alluding to goes..." Yeah I thought that was approaching some name-calling there.


Flandre: I'm abusing Google Translate so don't trust me here but the second comment with a link to our thread seems to be accusing us of overconfidence/arrogance about how we think we can get the game done anyway even if this indiegogo falls through or if ZUN objects or something? It's my best guess, but we have actual folks who understand actual Japanese here so don't quote me ever on that.

I'm still chalking a lot of this up to bias against western fandom.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 03:25:13 PM by Alcoraiden »

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2015, 03:29:53 PM »
I think that the anti-crowdfunding feeling in japan really has to do with how different the feelings of indie developers are between the 2 countries.
Correct me if wrong but Indie development != Doujin development. This isn't just a East vs West issue, but also method-approach.

Doujin = hobby activity, self-paid, circles, aimed for selling through own channels or events (Reitaisai/Ket)
Indie = is usually (crowd)funded or self-paid, company structures, aim for earning money (steam / platforms).

Indiegogo or Kickstarter or any other fancy buzz name doesn't matter. The general thought remains: "investment money". That is the fact, the secondary issue is the moral behind it. Like "Why".

ZUN enforces Doujin rules on Touhou. Recent PS4/Vita Doujin development will extend this rule exclusively for the said platform. ZUN grants no room for Indie methods afaik.

Edit:
@ Alcoraiden, Ye he is indeed quoting the general sound here. And if you didn't notice. This thread has been having over 30 guests for the last few hours.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM by Helepolis »

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2015, 03:31:53 PM »
Are they really aiming to make money on this? It sounds like they want this extra funding to rush the game along, not to pad their wallets. And every doujin circle sells their stuff, so that can't really count...

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2015, 03:35:08 PM »
So is there any possible way for this to aim to be doujin activity while using "indie ways"?

I'm pretty sure the goal of this project isn't money.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2015, 03:37:05 PM »
Spotty, that is indeed the main question being asked here. And the only person who can answer this is ZUN himself.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #169 on: January 15, 2015, 03:37:51 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there the possibility that ZUN doesn't want crowd funded derivates because he fears that the incredibly massive amounts of cash this garners will lead to a product that's "too professional", to the point that it overshadows his own games? If I remember correctly, the reason he explicitly states something along the lines of "no for-profit anime" is that he doesn't want those to become the face of the Touhou Project, because we all know that's what's going to happen ^_^ . I'm beginning to think that this is what he fears, that eventually your game (which also happens an overseas game) will gain too much popularity due to the greater budget, and by extension, quality of various game assets.

Once again, I have no idea what he thinks of this in the first place, but based on the reasons mentioned above, I have some degree of certainty that he holds a bit of fear that a crowd funded game will overshadow the "traditional" lower-budget doujin games released in Japan.

Perhaps you should go the route mentioned in someone's earlier post: release a "lite" version with a few characters and stages, then add on to it as necessary, preferably with the profits you get from the initially released game. That's just a suggestion, so don't take it seriously if that's not what your plans are.

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #170 on: January 15, 2015, 03:40:23 PM »
Hm. I highly doubt that would be the case if only because Smashers aren't nearly so broad in appeal and popularity as an anime series/movie would be. But hey, who knows.

My wild-assed guess is that ZUN worries that smaller doujin groups will be pushed out by people who are garnering huge amounts of money from large groups, so that crowdfunding will start to make "do it yourself" tiny groups obsolete in the eyes of the public. That people will start expecting the kind of speed and quality that comes from having a large amount of resources and people.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #171 on: January 15, 2015, 03:45:03 PM »
The latter part of your post is also what I was hinting towards, that this new form of crowd funded project will overtake the smaller "true" doujin circles.

That people will start expecting the kind of speed and quality that comes from having a large amount of resources and people.
Hey, doesn't that sound like ... every major commercialized big-name game developer ever?

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #172 on: January 15, 2015, 03:46:26 PM »
I think N-Forza is talking about this tweet: https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/555585455027023873

I'm having trouble understanding what the replies are saying though.

Its times like this i wish i knew more japanese, and google translate is not helping much... It could be what Alcoraiden said

Correct me if wrong but Indie development != Doujin development. This isn't just a East vs West issue, but also method-approach.

Doujin = hobby activity, self-paid, circles, aimed for selling through own channels or events (Reitaisai/Ket)
Indie = is usually (crowd)funded or self-paid, company structures, aim for earning money (steam / platforms).

ZUN enforces Doujin rules on Touhou. Recent PS4/Vita Doujin development will extend this rule exclusively for the said platform. ZUN grants no room for Indie methods afaik.

Edit:
@ Alcoraiden, Ye he is indeed quoting the general sound here. And if you didn't notice. This thread has been having over 30 guests for the last few hours.

If that is true, then that makes sense, but the thing is, there is no such thing as a doujin style game development in the west. Well other then free flash games and porn games. Correct me if I am wrong though. In any case Doujin is VERY rare here, where it is huge in japan. I do think that indie is very rare in japan, but huge here.

How ZUN deals with this those is gonna be key I think. Does he force us to conform to how it is in Japan, or does he have the west do it its own way, due to the Japanese way not really being a thing at all outside of japan. If there was a bigger doujin scene where people could sell their games at a con, that would be one thing... but that doesn't exist really outside of japan. You are forced to sell on a console, or steam, or host your own direct download server. There is no other option.

I will just echo everything zferolie said, with a few other things.

This really does look like a big cultural divide here. Japan doesn't like the idea of outside-funded doujins and perhaps think it sounds greedy; we think it's a sign of bucking the corporate system and enabling the little guy. I hope we can clarify that, and that a discussion can be had, and even if people don't change any minds on either side, *the dialogue happening* is an accomplishment first off. Slow and steady wins this race for anyone involved.

Saijee -- you really need to take initiative. Don't drop a single tweet and wait. Go talk to the other people in this conversation on the Japan side. Actively post about the fact that the Wii U thing is a misconception. Make sure your voice gets heard. One little line will get drowned; you have to actively start this conversation. "The ball is in their court" will not work now. It especially seems like Ruw is someone who ZUN listens to and who should be spoken to. But there was a list earlier, so listen to that. Also keep on top of news -- Helepolis posted a link you will really want to see and address. You have to be proactive and cut down the misinformation before it spreads.

I disagree that ZUN has an obligation to his Japanese fans over anyone else. Like I said, and like ZUN is figuring out, this fandom is international. There's nothing about the Japanese fans other than numbers that make them inherently better in any way. Assuming there is comes dangerously close to the "primary/secondary fan" kind of trope that we wrinkle our noses at here.

Sedrife: It's kind of weird that ZUN has a "no response" kind of behavior but that he asks us to ask permission. You really can't have isolation and discussion at the same time. It's...contradictory. That's strange of him to do.

Forza: Kickstarter is way more intense than Indiegogo about its campaigns. Perhaps that will be an advantage here? Not sure.

Colticide: I think the point isn't to impress ZUN with money. The point is to show him how many people, especially Western folks who he now knows are a big thing since AWA, really want this to happen. We're showing him we have presence and we are enthusiastic about his universe, his game, and fan works based on those.

"As far as this "impatience" and "ignorance" and "immature " thing you are alluding to goes..." Yeah I thought that was approaching some name-calling there.


Flandre: I'm abusing Google Translate so don't trust me here but the second comment with a link to our thread seems to be accusing us of overconfidence/arrogance about how we think we can get the game done anyway even if this indiegogo falls through or if ZUN objects or something? It's my best guess, but we have actual folks who understand actual Japanese here so don't quote me ever on that.

I'm still chalking a lot of this up to bias against western fandom.

All good points. I will agree totally on the not impress with money, but with the amount of backers. Show zun that the western Touhou fans want this, and there are a lot, and really show that we have to do it this way outside of japan.

Are they really aiming to make money on this? It sounds like they want this extra funding to rush the game along, not to pad their wallets. And every doujin circle sells their stuff, so that can't really count...
So is there any possible way for this to aim to be doujin activity while using "indie ways"?

I'm pretty sure the goal of this project isn't money.

The creators have said in the videos that they don't want the money for themselfs, they want the money to speed it along. They need to get this across to ZUN and the japanese to show that its not a cash grab.

Spotty, that is indeed the main question being asked here. And the only person who can answer this is ZUN himself.


Indeed, and how ZUN answers that will pretty much set how western fans make touhou stuff in the future.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there the possibility that ZUN doesn't want crowd funded derivates because he fears that the incredibly massive amounts of cash this garners will lead to a product that's "too professional", to the point that it overshadows his own games? If I remember correctly, the reason he explicitly states something along the lines of "no for-profit anime" is that he doesn't want those to become the face of the Touhou Project, because we all know that's what's going to happen ^_^ . I'm beginning to think that this is what he fears, that eventually your game (which also happens an overseas game) will gain too much popularity due to the greater budget, and by extension, quality of various game assets.

Once again, I have no idea what he thinks of this in the first place, but based on the reasons mentioned above, I have some degree of certainty that he holds a bit of fear that a crowd funded game will overshadow the "traditional" lower-budget doujin games released in Japan.

Perhaps you should go the route mentioned in someone's earlier post: release a "lite" version with a few characters and stages, then add on to it as necessary, preferably with the profits you get from the initially released game. That's just a suggestion, so don't take it seriously if that's not what your plans are.

Thats probably a valid fear of his. Understandable though, given what he may see about crowdfunding. The creators need to stress they just want to make the game faster with more stuff, not that they are looking to make a buck off it and overshadow traditional doujin works.

Hm. I highly doubt that would be the case if only because Smashers aren't nearly so broad in appeal and popularity as an anime series/movie would be. But hey, who knows.

My wild-assed guess is that ZUN worries that smaller doujin groups will be pushed out by people who are garnering huge amounts of money from large groups, so that crowdfunding will start to make "do it yourself" tiny groups obsolete in the eyes of the public. That people will start expecting the kind of speed and quality that comes from having a large amount of resources and people.

Ok you guys stop making posts so I can stop adding qoutes :p

I don't think that this will threaten the doujin makers, since crowd funding is not much of a thing in japan, that they have so many other ways to sell and distrubute their game in japan then we do. I can see why they may think its a threat though, but I doubt it will ever surpase the traditional doujin ways. Plus japan as always been xenophobic, and never really like how american and europeans do their things, so theres that.

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #173 on: January 15, 2015, 04:03:05 PM »
Wow I *didn't* notice how many guests we have. Derp.

...this is going to be most interesting.

Vento

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #174 on: January 15, 2015, 05:13:38 PM »

How ZUN deals with this those is gonna be key I think. Does he force us to conform to how it is in Japan,
i thought the answer to this was obviously a yes? i wouldn't use the word force but yeah i'd expect someone using my IP to follow my rules and not ask to have their special snowflake version exclusive to their country of residence


 there is literally nothing stopping people from making their own touhou fanwork in the west, comics have been made, stuff like danmakufu... in doujin the only thing that can stop you is yourself., whether it be having not enough initiative or motivation or whatever. its a hobby first and foremost i don't see any reason why the western fanbase needs money to complete anything?

pretty sure zun just doesn't want to sell out his IP unless you guys believe the urban legend that he gets a cut of every doujin sold lol
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 05:16:28 PM by Vento »
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #175 on: January 15, 2015, 05:35:13 PM »
i thought the answer to this was obviously a yes? i wouldn't use the word force but yeah i'd expect someone using my IP to follow my rules and not ask to have their special snowflake version exclusive to their country of residence


 there is literally nothing stopping people from making their own touhou fanwork in the west, comics have been made, stuff like danmakufu... in doujin the only thing that can stop you is yourself., whether it be having not enough initiative or motivation or whatever. its a hobby first and foremost i don't see any reason why the western fanbase needs money to complete anything?

pretty sure zun just doesn't want to sell out his IP unless you guys believe the urban legend that he gets a cut of every doujin sold lol

I never believed that urban legend. Seems anti zun hontestly.

Comics and music are one thing, but games... I don't know. The creators know they can make the game they want to make, but it would take years. They want to cut off time with this. I don't see anything wrong with that. Perhaps I am biased.

And really, sadly, people in the west won't do anything for free. Games in particular. I have seen just how much it costs and the time it takes. it may just be how we act compaired to them, but still, I don't think its very easy to follow those rules exactly.

Still, one has to respect his wishes. if he says after this no crowdfunding, then thats it. I hope he is flexable and sees that this case is not what he may fear.

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #176 on: January 15, 2015, 05:44:55 PM »
I think a problem we are having is that for the groups over in Japan seeing, its become a case of actions speak louder then words. They see a touhou project asking for money to be made, then once its out ask for more money. That's what I imagine what they are seeing, they've been doing their business style for a long time and hasn't really changed, now a new group turns up and tries it different, to them you'd look greedy or out of place. Remember that this is also a very traditional country as well.

Edit: Again just to clarify I know they're not doing this project solely for money.
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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #177 on: January 15, 2015, 06:17:17 PM »
I think a problem we are having is that for the groups over in Japan seeing, its become a case of actions speak louder then words. They see a touhou project asking for money to be made, then once its out ask for more money. That's what I imagine what they are seeing, they've been doing their business style for a long time and hasn't really changed, now a new group turns up and tries it different, to them you'd look greedy or out of place. Remember that this is also a very traditional country as well.

Edit: Again just to clarify I know they're not doing this project solely for money.

Indeed, and the creators need to be very active in showing them that are not doing that. They can't send 1 tweet. the need to do what we are doing and explaining and talking. We know the japanese are watching this thread right now, and thats a good sign. Creators, now its your turn to relax them and prove to them you mean well.

Ozzy

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #178 on: January 15, 2015, 06:22:44 PM »
How many of these Japanese viewers are understanding exactly what we're discussing? I heard someone say one of them might have mentioned our thread with disdain, saying that we're arrogant (correct me if I'm wrong). If they were able to read everything in here and understand us, would they actually be saying that?

If you CAN read these posts, Mr. Japanese guest, then please realize that these people have no intention of making any sort of monetary gain from this project, they simply want it to take less than 5 years to finish. However, it is of course up to the decision of ZUN himself. If he says no to this indiegogo campaign, then that will be the end of it.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #179 on: January 15, 2015, 06:24:03 PM »
How many of these Japanese viewers are understanding exactly what we're discussing? I heard someone say one of them might have mentioned our thread with disdain, saying that we're arrogant (correct me if I'm wrong). If they were able to read everything in here and understand us, would they actually be saying that?

If you CAN read these posts, Mr. Japanese guest, then please realize that these people have no intention of making any sort of monetary gain from this project, they simply want it to take less than 5 years to finish. However, it is of course up to the decision of ZUN himself. If he says no to this indiegogo campaign, then that will be the end of it.

Well I assumed some of them are understanding us. but if thats what they are saying...