Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[Alcoraiden]

First, my reply to Colticide that I wrote before Sedrife showed up:

These are all very good points, yes. Kickstarter is always a risk, and many people go flying headlong into it without knowing quite what they're doing. It's always disappointing to have your money handed back to you because someone just didn't have their crap together, and even worse to have them just take it and run and either fail horribly or decide to bail with the cash. Crowdfunding is a great tool, but it certainly isn't for everyone, and it can be misused either maliciously or out of ignorance.

I actually am not up to date on the Doublefine issue; I just know a lot of people were in love with Doublefine last I heard of them. What's the tl;dr on that?

I do disagree, though, that hiring others isn't a good reason to get larger sums of money up front. After all, like the FAQ video said, they *could* quite well finish this game themselves...in a few years. To get this done quickly, things have to run in parallel, and that means hiring people.

I don't pretend to know what their financial situation is pre-crowdfunding, but I had just sort of assumed it wasn't so great or at least not nearly enough to buy the professional programs they want to use and so on. Granted, ass-you-me-etc-etc.

Now, for Sedrife:

The Favorite Maiden perks were insanely effective at boosting funding. Otherwise people are dropping in 20-50 bucks, which while awesome, will not boost this project to its full stretch goal potential. Granted, if you think the stretch goals are unreasonable, that's a whole other discussion, but the perks did an awesome job of providing initial money and also showing people that there was very powerful interest.

I agree with your conclusion on crowdfunding *except* for this: America does way less selling of fan work in my experience than Japan does. OCRemix and other Western communities offer their music for free, but doujin circles in Japan sell their albums. The West's fan work is nowhere near all about money grabbing and land of opportunity philosophy, and I don't see that in Touhou Smash either. In fact, Japan seems more monetary about their works from my perspective, because it's not offered for free as fan art; instead, you have to buy doujin comics and albums and so on. Smash is looking for ways to accelerate their progress with money, not just grab as much dosh as they can and run with it or something. This is actually why I kinda wrinkle my nose at the idea of importing doujin stuff -- it feels kinda money-grubbing to force us to buy something that in the West is usually offered for free.  (Exceptions include commissions and con prints sold at AA's,  but that's not nearly the majority of fan work.)

Last, this kinda goes back to my point about different cultures -- why do we have to do it the Japan way? Touhou is bigger than Japan now. It has fandom all over the world. Why is Japan the paradigm we have to use, unless ZUN straight out declares it to be the case?

And I do agree that ZUN should go ahead and write up a guideline for this once and for all, since crowdfunding took off after he wrote his last general "terms of service" kind of document. It'd be super helpful and then we wouldn't all to pester the snot out of him.

[Flandre5carlet]

-snip-

Pretty much agreed entirely with this.

[Disgaeafan1]

Yeah, I guess when you try to do stuff like this cultural differences are bound to crop up. Part of the difficulties of gathering support for a project with fans all over the world is dealing with these kinds of intricacies.

[Sedrife]

The Favorite Maiden perks were insanely effective at boosting funding. Otherwise people are dropping in 20-50 bucks, which while awesome, will not boost this project to its full stretch goal potential. Granted, if you think the stretch goals are unreasonable, that's a whole other discussion, but the perks did an awesome job of providing initial money and also showing people that there was very powerful interest.

I don't mind the perks.  My concern is that they exposed the idea that adding more and more expensive perks is a dangerous thing to play around with.  I actually think having them meet that $10,000 is a significant feat for Western Touhou community & Western Touhou derivative works, because many of us actually opened our wallet to support for the things we love, and not just rely on piracy.  I'll be honest.  I doubted this community and questioned the crowdfunding will become successful, because I had a prejudice that they will only support the things they will get for free, and wouldn't want to go about spend money, especially ~1,000$ or above just for some perks.  I was wrong.  By 265 funders (and growing). 

Last, this kinda goes back to my point about different cultures -- why do we have to do it the Japan way? Touhou is bigger than Japan now. It has fandom all over the world. Why is Japan the paradigm we have to use, unless ZUN straight out declares it to be the case?

And I do agree that ZUN should go ahead and write up a guideline for this once and for all, since crowdfunding took off after he wrote his last general "terms of service" kind of document. It'd be super helpful and then we wouldn't all to pester the snot out of him.

Yes.  Touhou is bigger than Japan.  But, Japanese want to contain Touhou within Japan.  The world wants to exercise Touhou, but Touhou license belongs to Japan.  Most of money being earned by Touhou doujin happens only in Japan.  We, outside Japan, either conform to Japanese dogma and hope to survive, or don't.  That's the problem with current guideline with Touhou fandom to exercise their creativity by making our own Touhou derivative works.  Trust me that this isn't the first, and certainly won't be the last.

The way I see where this is going is two ways.  One, either ZUN acknowledges this and improves his guideline in favor of worldwide creativity to flourish (this is why I mentioned Guideline needs improvement for "Online Touhou Convention"), or Western fans eventually gets fed up for being cockblocked every time and making so little money for them to feel self-worth, ignore ZUN's guidelines, and make whatever the hell they want, and sell them however the hell they want, and declare: "this is parody.  Any law in the civilized world cannot punish me, including yours".  I sincerely hope the situation doesn't go to the latter.  (Or maybe it already has. *cough* *Bandcamp* *cough*)

[Alcoraiden]

Yeah, fans outside Japan are going to make things either way...the question is if there will be cooperation or rebellion at its source.

[Ozzy]

The way I see where this is going is two ways.  One, either ZUN acknowledges this and improves his guideline in favor of worldwide creativity to flourish (this is why I mentioned Guideline needs improvement for "Online Touhou Convention"), or Western fans eventually gets fed up for being cockblocked every time and making so little money for them to feel self-worth, ignore ZUN's guidelines, and make whatever the hell they want, and sell them however the hell they want, and declare: "this is parody.  Any law in the civilized world cannot punish me, including yours".  I sincerely hope the situation doesn't go to the latter.  (Or maybe it already has. *cough* *Bandcamp* *cough*)

I'm curious what exactly you mean when you mention Bandcamp. I see people selling Touhou arranges there, is that technically not allowed?

[Sedrife]

I'm curious what exactly you mean when you mention Bandcamp. I see people selling Touhou arranges there, is that technically not allowed?

Ver.2011:

Restrictions on derivative works

I'd like to place the following restrictions on all
derivative works, regardless of whether they're commercial or independent:

For-profit development of works whose main element is animation(*)

Sale of software on the XBox 360 Indies channel

Sale of software via the App Store, Android Market, etc. (for commercial
parties, please get in contact with me)

Sale of works in channels that are further reaching than the distribution channels
used by the original works. The original works are primarily sold in general doujin
channels. So, please refrain from using download sales sites primarily oriented for
overseas customers, etc.

This pretty much meant on 2011, sell your work only on doujin convention.  Now that ZUN is selling TH14 online, the boundary upon "online sale" is a bit loose, I guess...?  Not that it stopped encouraging DLSite + etc. from online sales of Touhou goodies even then (maybe the distributors got ZUN's permission for online sales to happen, but I can't imagine ZUN giving a greenlight for hundreds of Touhou 18+ stuffs that's littered out there for ppl to purchase & download), so it was all good as long as ZUN (+ hardcore fans) didn't know about it.

[Disgaeafan1]

Saijee posted the following on the campaign site:

"It is unfortunate that ZUN apparently had not seen either of my emails, and instead his first view on TSSB was a misinformed article. I’m sure once we clear up things though, everything is going to be fine. And if it isn’t I still have many options which I can use to work things out. Do not fret though, bottom line: This game will be made."

Hopefully it works out. I saw he commented on the Twitter post:

"こんにちは　私は東方大乱闘を作成した者です。この文に書かれている情報が少し不確かなようなので上海アリス幻楽団のどなたかfromsoysauce@gmail.comに連絡を頂けないでしょうか？"

[Saijee]

We still have many many options to make this all work out.  Despite how much drama this is getting, I'm still confident that this situation is not out of control yet.

[Alcoraiden]

Yeah, that clause about distributing on non-typical channels bothers me. It seems heavily biased against non-Japanese works.

Edit: Got to say, Saijee, you got some brass balls for hanging in there while the rest of us are panicking

[Disgaeafan1]

We still have many many options to make this all work out.  Despite how much drama this is getting, I'm still confident that this situation is not out of control yet.

Good to hear Saijee. I mean, in all honesty nothing has really happened yet. Once we get an open dialogue between you and Zun, then we can choose to panic or not. I wonder if he would Skype? ...Probably not. Maybe some sort of instant messenger at least. ..Ok time difference makes that unlikely too. Oh well.

[Sedrife]

We still have many many options to make this all work out.  Despite how much drama this is getting, I'm still confident that this situation is not out of control yet.

Good luck to all three of you.  You're gonna need it.

[Helepolis]

- ZUN guidelines stuff - (omitted for overview)

ZUN also clearly states that anything unknown or not covered is subject to sending him a mail.

We still have many many options to make this all work out.  Despite how much drama this is getting, I'm still confident that this situation is not out of control yet.

Again, was it really that hard to wait for ZUN to reply first before launching the crowdfunding project?

Honestly, it feels like either ignorance or impatience to me. Or a combination of both. That is why this drama occurred  (Not really drama, just more like unwanted backfiring for no reason at all). I am sure that everybody here has supported Touhou Smash so far and we all want to see it getting finished.

I just think you missed a great opportunity in charming the Eastern Touhou Fans by rushing things. Which is really really unnecessary.

[zferolie]

ZUN also clearly states that anything unknown or not covered is subject to sending him a mail.
Again, was it really that hard to wait for ZUN to reply first before launching the crowdfunding project?

Honestly, it feels like either ignorance or impatience to me. Or a combination of both. That is why this drama occurred  (Not really drama, just more like unwanted backfiring for no reason at all). I am sure that everybody here has supported Touhou Smash so far and we all want to see it getting finished.

I just think you missed a great opportunity in charming the Eastern Touhou Fans by rushing things. Which is really really unnecessary.

It sounds like he tried to get in contact with him and waited over a month for a response, but heard nothing back. Perhaps this was the only way to get his attention?

[Sparen]

It sounds like he tried to get in contact with him and waited over a month for a response, but heard nothing back. Perhaps this was the only way to get his attention?

You make this sound like this drama was caused on purpose.

[zferolie]

You make this sound like this drama was caused on purpose.

I didn't mean it like that. It's just possible ZUN missed or ignored the e-mail. I am betting on the first. I don't think they needed drama, and this is mostly just because websites got the system for this game incorrect.

[Saijee]

ZUN also clearly states that anything unknown or not covered is subject to sending him a mail.
Again, was it really that hard to wait for ZUN to reply first before launching the crowdfunding project?

Honestly, it feels like either ignorance or impatience to me. Or a combination of both. That is why this drama occurred  (Not really drama, just more like unwanted backfiring for no reason at all). I am sure that everybody here has supported Touhou Smash so far and we all want to see it getting finished.

I just think you missed a great opportunity in charming the Eastern Touhou Fans by rushing things. Which is really really unnecessary.

I hold confidence that his issue is with the idea of Touhou on Wii U. No body really knows yet. But Like I said before, that is one a jarring bit of misinformation.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I've been following this topic for a while now, but this is my first post in it. With that said...

Please do whatever you can to clear up any issues that may be going on. ZUN needs to get the official verdict regarding the rumors that TSSB will be released on the Wii U, and the objective of the crowdfunding effort needs to be made certain. This game can become a real game-changer (sorry) in the Touhou scene, and I certainly don't want to see this project terminated mid-way because of a few misunderstandings. With that said, I will almost certainly support you by purchasing your game when it is released, and I might even be able to convince some of my friends to do the same.

Best of luck, and I hope you pull through!

[cuc]

こんにちは　私は東方大乱闘を作成した者です。この文に書かれている情報が少し不確かなようなので上海アリス幻楽団のどなたかfromsoysauce@gmail.comに連絡を頂けないでしょうか？

Judging from this passage, you have some knowledge in Japanese, but it will not be enough to leave a favorable impression on a Japanese speaker, not to mention helping you negotiate business terms in Japanese. I hope you can find help from a translator proficient enough to do that.

I mean all that sincerely. (And sorry, I'm not a proficient English-Japanese translator; there are quite a few people on this forum who know more Japanese than me.)

[zferolie]

Judging from this passage, you have some knowledge in Japanese, but it will not be enough to leave a favorable impression on a Japanese speaker, not to mention helping you negotiate business terms in Japanese. I hope you can find help from a translator proficient enough to do that.

I mean all that sincerely. (And sorry, I'm not a proficient English-Japanese translator; there are quite a few people on this forum who know more Japanese than me.)

so what does it translate back out to?

[Soul Devour]

The way things seem to be playing out right now lead me further to believe that it's next to impossible for the western fanbase to gain any traction in actually contributing in a meaningful way to Touhou fanworks. People are just too spread out, there's a language barrier between east and west, and a difference in cultures, resulting in other alternatives being shot down. Maybe some music circles could have a shot at still being successful, but beyond that...I just don't know. I hate to have a defeatist attitude about this, but the cards just seem completely stacked against the west.

[Colticide]

The way things seem to be playing out right now lead me further to believe that it's next to impossible for the western fanbase to gain any traction in actually contributing in a meaningful way to Touhou fanworks. People are just too spread out, there's a language barrier between east and west, and a difference in cultures, resulting in other alternatives being shot down. Maybe some music circles could have a shot at still being successful, but beyond that...I just don't know. I hate to have a defeatist attitude about this, but the cards just seem completely stacked against the west.

It may seem that way but things need to be done carefully. There are many western groups who do wonderful things for the touhou fandom but there is so much Touhou stuff that it's hard to find. But it is true that music groups have a better chance, but thats also because they have been doing longer then the ones making the games have been. A majority of English/Western Touhou games are either made in RPG Maker, or are Visual Novels, or mods or ROM hacks. The potential is there, but the right steps are needed to be made. I mean in all technicality even all those Doujin fangames made in Japan are breaking some form of copyright law, I'm fairly sure I heard that somewhere on the forum when I asked about copyright laws over there.

Umm I should apologize about my behavior of Crowd funding. It is peoples right to make that choice and it is the risk they put themselves in, but I've just seen way to much scamming going on and many unfulfilled promises. Majority of my hate for it comes from Doublefine and their horrible choices and the way they left their games. I really shouldn't be pushing my own feeling on that subject so I'm very sorry. As was mentioned before once TSSB is fully out I have no issue buying the game since it's out and done.


(For those who don't know, Doublefine basically started a kickstarter for a point and click game called Broken age, they asked for a few $100k and met their goal very quickly. Then they needed more money, and this made a lot of people see that it takes more then a few 100k to make a game with a team that needs to get paid to live off of. So they made a new kickstarter asking for either $1 mill or $2 mill and again met their goal.... which then again they ran out of funds and asked for more. Mean while they started kickstarters for 2? (I know of two but I think there could be more) more games. In the end we only got a part 1 of Broken Age, a game that was on Steam early access that never got finished and none of the functions promised put in and was shoved out to everyone and told the people who bought the game to fix the problems and finish the game for them. Oh and I heard no word of the other games yet so who knows what happened to them.)

[Soul Devour]

The other game in question Colticide mentioned is Spacebase DF-9. Between it and Broken Age, Doublefine has lost a ton of consumer faith and possibly done irreparable damage to the crowdfunding scene, and for good reason.

[zferolie]

The double fine thing is a reason I don't give money to big name studios. They do not know how to spend their money wisely and really should be able to fund these themselves. I only give to smaller indie things, unless I really like the campany, like the guys who did Little witch academia for the second one. They aren't big but they have done other stuff. Also Way Forward because I love those guys too much and they onlive live by making games for others, and Shantae wouldn't have been made otherwise.

[Romantique Tp]

But it is true that music groups have a better chance, but thats also because they have been doing longer then the ones making the games have been.

Music groups have lots of advantages, for one this is probably how most western Touhou arranges I have heard were made:

[nsfw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E57SnVgjbvk[/nsfw]

[Colticide]

The double fine thing is a reason I don't give money to big name studios. They do not know how to spend their money wisely and really should be able to fund these themselves. I only give to smaller indie things, unless I really like the campany, like the guys who did Little witch academia for the second one. They aren't big but they have done other stuff. Also Way Forward because I love those guys too much and they onlive live by making games for others, and Shantae wouldn't have been made otherwise.

There is that odd feeling that bigger studios should be able to use their own money, but why do they need a publisher in the first place? It's because those studios don't have the money to make it themselves unless your also a publisher as well as a developer.(best one I can think of is SquareEnix [BTW also a Japanese company], though they have expressed interest in crowdfunding themselves but Squeenix would be the eyes on the project to make sure those games get done and do what is promised, but since this hasn't been done before it has some negativity behind it.) We see how expensive it can be, one fighting game character is expensive thanks to Lab 0 giving us information on what all the expenses  go into. A lot of good games have come from it too, but sadly I feel for wayforward, they have a publisher but they never get the funding they need or the help, Majesco needs to die for their horrid attitude towards their developers. (Gaah again I'm sorry! I don't get to talk about this stuff with people!)

Music groups have lots of advantages, for one this is probably how most western Touhou arranges I have heard were made:

[nsfw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E57SnVgjbvk[/nsfw]

Perfect now I can get to work on my %100 original U.N. Owen remix! 

Sadly you are right, I know a few people that do it this way and while if used right "sounds good" but it still feels wrong to me. I really want to make music, but playing piano is only the best I can do and I'm not great, I really want to make music like a lot of those good circles. (Damn you lack of knowledge!)

[Saijee]

I think someone asked "Whats to stop FSS from making 6th or 7th Favorite Maiden Tiers?"
The reason I didn't do it for a while was because I thought it would make it look like I'm just trying to get peoples money. It took the pressure of a LOT of people asking me to make more fav maiden tiers to get me to actually add them.

I am also very hesitant to adding more maiden tiers because there are a lot of characters that I know a lot of people really really really want to see, but only a limited number of slots, and every time I let another slot to a Fav Maiden, it means that there will be 1 slot less for more obvious or popular picks.

I feel like relative to virtually any other developer, I give my fans quite a lot of power to dictate over this project.

For the most part, I do my very best to be a servant to the fans.

I'm kinda like a driver of a car full of Touhou fans who themselves cannot drive (metaphorically speaking) where we all are trying to get to the same destination but I alone don't have all the money myself to get there.

In short, this isn't just my game, it's not just From Soy Sauce's game, it's *our* game, as a community.

[N-Forza]

I think people are assuming a lot regarding the creation of fan works and their funding, not to mention doujin culture itself.

Crowdfunding is comparatively a very new development, but Japan is not known for keeping abreast with that kind of stuff, despite its cutting-edge image (see: every company that still uses fax machines). While it is true that many companies related to Japan have successfully run Kickstarters and whatnot (Mighty No. 9, Clannad), they are exceptions to the rule and largely governed by a more international mindset.

However, another big difference is that those that have used it are business entities, not indie studios or projects. To be considered "doujin", the comics, CDs, games, trading card sleeves, etc. have to be made on THE CIRCLE'S OWN dime and time. Outside "investment" besides asking a guest to contribute art or music is pretty much unheard of, and you use whatever proceeds you earned from previous doujin works to fund your next work (assuming you're one of the 30% of circles to even turn a profit). Though certain people are able to make a living off of selling doujin, it is, after all is said and done, a hobby. That is the main difference between Japanese doujin circles and western indie companies. It's partly why ZUN hasn't done much to expand ZUN internationally until very recently. I doubt you'd see a Kickstarter or Indiegogo for anything sold exclusively at Comiket/doujin shops, for a number of reasons.

There's no effort to put the kibosh on the game solely because it's not Japanese; it's just that by the current guidelines, the hurdles are rather high. Granted, ZUN's guidelines probably need to be updated given recent events, but that's entirely up to him. And if he doesn't, it is highly unlikely because he hates foreigners. It's probably because he doesn't want to mess with the legal red tape or whatever. As for Touhou stuff on Bandcamp/DLSite, it probably just hasn't reached the point where further attention is necessary.

Presumably the major point of contention is the misunderstanding about the Wii U release, and if that can be cleared up, then things can possibly be salvaged, but I still think the crowdfunding campaign was premature. If it weren't Touhou, you definitely could've gone through with it, but you probably wouldn't have made so much in so little time.

[Colticide]

In short, this isn't just my game, it's not just From Soy Sauce's game, it's *our* game, as a community.

This doesn't sit well with me, it reminds me of how youtubers give their audience a nickname and gives the viewers a sense of community when in reality it just gives those kinds of viewers who are into that a feeling that the one making the videos are obligated to and a responsibility to them.

While for a game yes we have the right to a working product, but grouping everyone in a community for a game that isn't out yet feels like string pulling.

If it weren't Touhou, you definitely could've gone through with it, but you probably wouldn't have made so much in so little time.

%100 agree.

[Saijee]

This doesn't sit well with me, it reminds me of how youtubers give their audience a nickname and gives the viewers a sense of community when in reality it just gives those kinds of viewers who are into that a feeling that the one making the videos are obligated to and a responsibility to them.

While for a game yes we have the right to a working product, but grouping everyone in a community for a game that isn't out yet feels like string pulling.

%100 agree.

If that's how you look at it, go ahead.  A content creator of any sort is nothing without their followers.

Do you honestly think I'm just trying to get a pretty penny?

If it weren't Touhou, you definitely could've gone through with it, but you probably wouldn't have made so much in so little time.

We are still going to go through with this, the game will be made no matter what.