Smash 4 Thread #2 - Now With Another Crossover

[Esoterica]

I'm still trying to fully understand what's up with it.  Vectoring seems completely unchanged on horizontal knockbacks compared to pre-1.0.4 but vertical knockbacks don't let you influence it up or down.  Seems to me that Sakurai wanted to remove the jank from vertical launches (dying at 70% from Robin wind jab as Dedede while trying to SDI up and out of it?), but I'm not sure at what angle the game draws the line and says "Okay, you can vertically influence this again."

Speaking of Diddy how 'bout that Mr.E Marth player JV 3stocking m2k's Diddy in tournament last night BV

[Suikama]

Time for Metaknight to climb back up the tiers (that's a true combo btw)

[Mеа]

Time for Metaknight to climb back up the tiers (that's a true combo btw)

Holy hell death at 19%??
Metaknight wants his tier back

[Colticide]

I've noticed when playing with a friend that meta knights up b must have some good knock back on it. The same thing happens to me as in that video.

[Esoterica]

Looks like Japan's got a new tier list.



Aside from Shulk in middle of D being completely absurd, everything else about this just gives me that feeling of "Almost, but not quite."  Upper C having Falcon, Pac-Man, Luigi, Mii Gunner, Pikachu, Dedede, and Greninja all lumped together particularly strikes me as odd.

[Colticide]

Marth and Lucina are both E? Wasnt marth higher in past games? He feels the same from before.

[Patorikku]

Looks like Japan's got a new tier list.

> Shulk at D rank, Zelda at E+, Marth and Lucina at E
SACRILEGE!

But I'm totally okay with Villager, Ness and Pit.

[Esper]

Looks like Japan's got a new tier list.



Aside from Shulk in middle of D being completely absurd, everything else about this just gives me that feeling of "Almost, but not quite."  Upper C having Falcon, Pac-Man, Luigi, Mii Gunner, Pikachu, Dedede, and Greninja all lumped together particularly strikes me as odd.

>Diddy is rank S
>Marth is rank E
>Zelda is rank E+
>Shiek is rank D

This has to be a troll list. I know that Marth isn't as good as he was in Project M, Melee, and Brawl, but surely he's better than "absolute shit tier"

[Suikama]

Smash Wii U still isn't out yet in Japan so they're still stuck with the 3DS version where Marth and co suck, although I supposed they do have the new 3DS with the C-nub.


Top tiers are pretty obvious. Diddy is pretty obviously S tier where the S stands for Sakurai is gonna nerf me hard soon. Sheik is still damn good. Yoshi, ZSS, Lucario, Sanic, Fox are still good on account of not really being nerfed. Mii Brawler has a bunch of silly kill combos with his up Bs.
Interesting to see Japan isn't sleeping on Villager. That character is definitely a threat when played correctly.
Wow Rosa fell hard, and Greninja fell even harder, but they still aren't bad so it's fine.
Wow Luigi shot up from the very bottom of the list. I know he was too low before but his recovery is still kinda terrible unless you can mash B extremely hard.
Dedede is still that high even after his nerfs? Eithere Japanese Dededes never used gordo anyways, or no one knows how to reflect them lol.
I know Pit is objectively better than Dark pit especially after the vectoring change, but it's still weird to have that big of a gap between them. Their fundamentals are still the same, you just have 3 moves that are a bit 'worse' (still Nario pls stop playing him play pit instead).
Shulk seems kinda low even after all of his buffs, but that's probably because he still has pretty garbage matchups vs the top tiers. Same goes for Ike. Also they're definitely way better on the Wii U. Pretty much all sword characters who need to properly space are.
Robin is way too low. While Zelda still seems kinda bad even with Nario's best efforts, Robin definitely has a really strong toolset. I mean he's one of the few characters that can pierce shields from the air with his down b.
I'm surprised Ganondorf still bottom after Gungnir has been tearing things up. Ganon only has to land like 4 hits to kill anyone. He's way too strong to be bottom. I mean I guess it's cause he feels like your using a punching bag if you aren't good with him, but it's not really fair to assess a character if you aren't using them properly.
Well I suppose almost everyone in the bottom tier can wreck face but has some fundamental problems. I know Wii Fit, Link, Zelda, Dr. Mario, and Samus definitely feel this way (most of them have awkward normals and terrible recoveries) , but the others feel like they just have 3DS syndrome. Maybe it's just because Diddy kong eats them all for breakfast :V

lel mii swordsman no one likes you

[Esoterica]

I think Shulk's just low in Japan because literally nobody's playing him.  Trela's been opening eyes in the west.

Several top JP players like Rain and Nietono dropped Rosalina and Greninja altogether after the nerfs, so I guess it isn't surprising that they fell as much as they did without any skilled players representing them.  I still feel like Rosalina's top 5 if not top 10 personally but I can still see those ranks as reasonable.

In a no customs environment Luigi just seems generally better than Mario to me, slower movement and lack of Cape aside.  He gets so much more damage per hit and has a much more rewarding combo game.  And even without godlike mashing skills, a better recovery.

My best guess as to Dedede still being considered as high as he is is because he has neutral to positive matchups against certain perceived high tiers that have been giving him generally better tournament results.  Diddy DESTROYS him, but I feel like he does well against Sheik, Rosalina, Mii Brawler, and Wario.  I'm personally of the mind that Dedede's bottom 5 though and have been working on MK/Greninja/Luigi since 1.0.4 hit.

Nosferatu as air-to-shield is kind of questionable.  I guess a command grab is a command grab and its reward on hit is terrific, but it has an ungodly 17f startup.  Robin's another character with no tourney representation in the east, so I'll assume the same fate as Shulk is responsible for her rank.

Marth I would've believed if I hadn't seen Mr.E JV 3 stock M2K among other things.  Watching him in tournament completely dispelled any doubts I had about Marth.


so uh

I tried out mii brawler in training a bit

how are people sleeping this hard on this character

[Suikama]

Like I said silly upB combos :V

Although those combos are only possible if you have the right size which would be a problem if people force Miis to only be default size

[Colticide]

I actually tried mii brawler myself yesterday and dear god! Fast, combo specials and decent KO potential ( Just has a lot of knockback).

Also tried diddy and can't do that combo but noticed how deadly his air up A is, its like metaknights up B.

[Esoterica]

Clone character, meet clone sword.

Like I said silly upB combos :V

Although those combos are only possible if you have the right size which would be a problem if people force Miis to only be default size

Yeah Miis will definitely be a lot less amazing if restricted to average size.

I think maybe since the general consensus for Mii sizes seems to be either short/thin or short/fat that there shouldn't be too much of an issue, but with all the bias people seem to have against Miis it wouldn't surprise me to see them restricted to default size, and 1111 moveset in no custom rulesets.

[Mеа]

There's a little local tourney in 3 hours that I'll be destroyed in.
If you're bored, tune in. I'm using the tag SiG btw

Edit: lost pretty early in singles bracket, lost in grand finals in random doubles bracket and gave up in melee singles, it was pretty fun

[Esper]

I just got Smash 4 as an early present~ :V

On the downside, though, it's pretty debilitating to work with input delay. :c

[Tamer Anode/Cathode]

Anyone know offhand what the requirement is to unlock Lucina in WiiU version? I think she's the last character I need to get (and I'm hoping it's not something painful like unlocking Duck Hunt was)

[Colticide]

Anyone know offhand what the requirement is to unlock Lucina in WiiU version? I think she's the last character I need to get (and I'm hoping it's not something painful like unlocking Duck Hunt was)

30 battled won or lost is the fastest that I know.

[Garlyle]

30 battled won or lost is the fastest that I know.

Or clear Classic on 5.5+ (meaning you finish on 5.5+ and successfully beat Master Core; if your difficulty drops below that because of continues you won't get her)

[Colticide]

Or clear Classic on 5.5+ (meaning you finish on 5.5+ and successfully beat Master Core; if your difficulty drops below that because of continues you won't get her)

Ahh thank you!

[Garlyle]

Ahh thank you!

No problem.

Unlocking the characters in the WiiU version isn't that hard fortunately, sans Duck Hunt (You have to score a KO in Cruel Smash, although when you realise you can just spam Shulk's - or anyone's - Counter, it's not so bad) and whoever it was you unlock for completing 8 rounds of Crazy Orders and then defeating Crazy Hand successfully (not necessarily hard but it's lots of room to screw up and the cost of entry is actually pretty high).  Assuming you remember to actually back out of 100 Man/Cruel Smash instead of go straight into another attempt because otherwise you miss the unlock fight and have to do it again for some reason.

[Patorikku]

No problem.

Unlocking the characters in the WiiU version isn't that hard fortunately, sans Duck Hunt (You have to score a KO in Cruel Smash, although when you realise you can just spam Shulk's - or anyone's - Counter, it's not so bad) and whoever it was you unlock for completing 8 rounds of Crazy Orders and then defeating Crazy Hand successfully (not necessarily hard but it's lots of room to screw up and the cost of entry is actually pretty high).  Assuming you remember to actually back out of 100 Man/Cruel Smash instead of go straight into another attempt because otherwise you miss the unlock fight and have to do it again for some reason.

I'm fairly certain every character can be unlocked through playing enough rounds of smash, 100 of them, to be exact. I was rush-unlocking all the characters by just having one-stock matches with launch rate to x2.0, and had all the characters unlocked within, say, two or three hours, so if you end up having trouble with Cruel Smash or the apparent Crazy Orders unlock, just take that route. You don't have to win any of those smash rounds, either.

That said, the stage unlocks are still static, and you do have to get one Cruel Smash KO to unlock the Duck Hunt stage, so yeah. There's also the Pac-Land stage that requires you to play on every Smash Tour map, which could take a minimum of an hour, depending on how each Smash Tour goes.

Actually, does anyone know if there's a page of all the unlockable content, including music tracks? I'm still working on hunting down all the music, particularly the Gerudo Valley remix. Wait nevermind I found a useful thing. And here's some unlock methods for characters specifically.

[Spotty Len]

There's also the Pac-Land stage that requires you to play on every Smash Tour map, which could take a minimum of an hour, depending on how each Smash Tour goes.

I used a Golden Hammer for that one. Too lazy.

Incidentally, I found a checklist some time ago. Can't remember where I got it but I saved it.

1. - Complete All Star mode or 100 Multi Man Smash.
2. - Use the Gold Hammer gained by this to open the block one up and one left from the bottom right block in the challenges screen.
3. - Complete event matches in a row moving right, up, right, up.
4. - Perform 80 VS matches using Special Smash with Flowers, Stamina, and Fast. It's easiest to pick Omega Stage each time with Charizard. Make your opponent set to 10 HP, and leave yourself at default.
5. - Get one KO in Cruel Multi Man Smash. Break 100 blocks in Trophy Rush with Mr. Game and Watch.

I don't think I had that much of a problem with Cruel Smash. I just edgehogged like a madman and countered what was coming.

[Suikama]

Looks like Japan's got a new tier list.



Aside from Shulk in middle of D being completely absurd, everything else about this just gives me that feeling of "Almost, but not quite."  Upper C having Falcon, Pac-Man, Luigi, Mii Gunner, Pikachu, Dedede, and Greninja all lumped together particularly strikes me as odd.

Will showing everyone this list is actually garbage

DK da best :V

[Esoterica]

I never thought I'd be cheering for a DK but oh my god Will is so hype

SO

HYPE

NAKAT RUINED
ALLY VS WILL
MARIO VS DK
THIS
EVERYTHING

[Drake]

This tournament has been so good.


EDIT: THE COUNTERRRRRRRRR

[Colticide]

Wait there was a tournament? Man I have no idea where people find this.

[Suikama]

streams are always on Twitch.tv

Also RIP Will

He was supposed to win but Shulk changed the future with a vision

[Colticide]

streams are always on Twitch.tv

Is there a particular one people watch, I'm a bit new to twitch.

[Drake]

Really most of the time you can check the games list if one of the Smashes has like 1000+ viewers. Tournaments aren't always on the same channels.

[Amraphenson]

rip wiiu, sisters and all their schoolmates playing smash bricked it. 2-3 week system repair ; ;