One thing about Wakasagihime

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

So... I see on Touhou Wiki her species is labeled as "Mermaid", but I don't think she is exactly that. She is actually a Ningyo (The youkai equivalent to the western mermaid).

You might want to say "Oh, but they are the same thing" and I will reply with a no. There are some key differences between the two creatures.

First of all, let's start with the etymology of both "Mermaid" and "Ningyo"

"Mermaid" comes from the Old English word "mere" (sea) and "maid" (girl). While "Ningyo" (人魚) is a combination of the characters 人 (human) and 魚 (fish). I'm sure nobody will disagree that "sea girl" ≠ "human fish".

Secondly, let's take a look at Wakasagihime's omake on DDC:

○１面ボス　淡水に棲む人魚

　　わかさぎ姫
　　Wakasagihime

　　種族：人魚
　　能力：水中だと力が増す程度の能力

　　おっとり系の淡水人魚。
　　普段は歌を歌ったり、石を拾ったりして暮している大人しい妖怪。
　　人間に敵対心は持っていない。

　　打ち出の小槌の魔力に冒され、強気になっていたところ霊夢達に
　　成敗された。

　　今はもう大人しい。

The underlined segment translates as Race: Ningyo. If she was really a "mermaid", then Zun would have put a 種族：マーメイド instead. (マーメイド = Māmeido; which is the kana used by the Japanese to refer to western mermaids)

Thirdly, Wakasagihime herself doesn't have the features of a western mermaid. Mainly due to three reasons:

1) She has a pure Japanese name.
2) She dresses in oriental clothes (a kimono to be more specific).
3) She is based after a Japanese fish: The wakasagi (which is a species of fish native to Japan). If she was really a mermaid and not a ningyo, then she would at least have been based after a western fish, right?

The point I'm trying to reach is that mermaid is NOT the same thing as ningyo. If that was the case, then you might as well call Suika an "ogre" or "demon", instead of "oni". Since this is what the character 鬼 translates to when converted to English. You can confirm by visiting the Japanese wikipedia article of the western ogre and reading the last segment:

"日本では「鬼」と訳されることが多い。" translates roughly as: "in Japan it's often called 鬼"

Therefore, I'd suggest someone changing Wakasagihime's species to "Ningyo" on Touhou wiki.

[Tengukami]

I have similar feelings about calling Sukuna an "inchling". This is not even a word in the English language. I do not understand what is wrong with "kobito". First, because at least "mermaid" is an actual word with a rich mythological history, as are other English words which are approximate equivalents for some Japanese supernatural beings (e.g., an "oni" as an "ogre" or "demon"). This meaning of "inchling", by contrast, appears to have been invented by a translator of one telling of the story of the Issun-boshi, in 1968. Second, it's not like people bend over backwards trying to find an obscure English approximate for things like "tengu" or "yama", either. They just call them these things.

I realize there's some discretion with regards to what to translate/localize and what not to, but "inchling" is such a weird choice. But in Wakasagihime's case, yeah, she's not even an actual mermaid, so it is odd that it was localized this way (no matter how understandable that confusion may be).

[FLASH]

Minor caveat tough:
if i remember right (not sure), her theme is called "Hikyou no Mermaid" with  "マーメイド"

i'd still agree with you that here character profile entry (and the other reasons you quoted) have priority over that, but still saiying it's not 100% out of nowhere poeple called here a mermaid...


even tough i agree with you sh's still clearly a Ningyou, not a Mermaid.

in fact i'm generally against translating in any way any mythological/folkloric name whenever translating a text...

i even get mad at people calling "Phoenix" and "Dragon" the Japanese "Ho-oH" and "Ryu" to tell you how drastic i am... they are clearly not the same things, but people prefer to use familiar names for what they don't fully understand that's just the way of things... 

[Clarste]

Minor caveat tough:
if i remember right (not sure), her theme is called "Hikyou no Mermaid" with  "マーメイド"

i'd still agree with you that here character profile entry (and the other reasons you quoted) have priority over that, but still saiying it's not 100% out of nowhere poeple called here a mermaid...

And Sekibanki's theme is "Dullahan" while Kagerou's theme is "Loup Garou". It's pretty clearly an intentional pattern in their themes: to compare them with similar western youkai (although the pattern drops off the face of the Earth after the demo portion of the game). Actually, this makes it sound more like it shouldn't be mermaid, since clearly ZUN was thinking about the word and chose not to use it in her profile. I would go so far as to say he was aware of the difference and was intentionally contrasting them.

That said, we've always translated things like "ghost" and "phantom" and "fairy" and "vampire" so it's not like there's no precedent for arbitrarily translating some Japanese words for youkai and not others. In a lot of ways it's just a matter of familiarity.

[Ghildrean]

I have similar feelings about calling Sukuna an "inchling". This is not even a word in the English language. I do not understand what is wrong with "kobito". First, because at least "mermaid" is an actual word with a rich mythological history, as are other English words which are approximate equivalents for some Japanese supernatural beings (e.g., an "oni" as an "ogre" or "demon"). This meaning of "inchling", by contrast, appears to have been invented by a translator of one telling of the story of the Issun-boshi, in 1968. Second, it's not like people bend over backwards trying to find an obscure English approximate for things like "tengu" or "yama", either. They just call them these things.

I realize there's some discretion with regards to what to translate/localize and what not to, but "inchling" is such a weird choice. But in Wakasagihime's case, yeah, she's not even an actual mermaid, so it is odd that it was localized this way (no matter how understandable that confusion may be).

Take a look at this.

[Tengukami]

Take a look at this.

I did.

[N-Forza]

This is one of the things with localization in that there are varying levels, ranging from "Just as keikaku"-style TL notes and 4Kids. Though it can be hard get everyone involved to agree (just see the Inchling discussion on the wiki), it's important to find the right level so you can make the Japanese side more accessible through using familiar terms.

Oni are pretty much my localization standard. In a western setting, I translate them as demons or ogres depending upon context. In Japanese, I leave them as-is, because they are key ways in which they are different enough to make the distinction. Anything more unique to Japanese culture is kept as is (tengu, kappa) while those with familiar western analogues I translate (mermaid, vampire, dullahan, phantom). This way, people playing the games/reading the books can quickly pick up on key traits.

However, one boon to the wiki is that people who are more interested in finding out more can easily see the origins of all characters and learn about the finer differences which may not be immediately relevant in the games. I'm not attempting to whitewash or ruin the purity of glorious nihongo, but when adapting a game for another culture, it's important to make concessions to keep players/readers engaged, and too many unusual terms could just confuse people.

[aListers]

While I agree that shinmyoumaru shouldn't be listed as an inchling (based mainly on the fact that hardly anybody who speaks english has even heard the word); I think your being pedantic, if not a bit weeabooy, about the use of the word. While origins of the words are different; they are essentially the same things in context. More people will understand if you call her a mermaid. They will not understand if you call her a ningyo. The point is that more people understand and there really is very little difference between the terms so I don't think it justifies alienating the audience for so little extra information.

I think the fact that we argue over whever "ogre" or "demon" is a better translation for "oni" is enough to say that, in at least western eyes, our views of an oni differ heavily from our views of ogres.

[Clarste]

If you really wanted to talk about how the Japanese mermaid mythology is different (which it is), it's probably better to just say "Japanese mermaid" anyway.

[Prime32]

If you really wanted to talk about how the Japanese mermaid mythology is different (which it is), it's probably better to just say "Japanese mermaid" anyway.

The kind of creature most people mean by "mermaid" is Danish anyway. If "ningyo" can only refer to the Japanese creature then "mermaid" should only refer to the English one... and some English mermaids are big enough to swallow whales whole, while others swim upstream and are basically prettier versions of kappa. :wat:

[Clarste]

Well, regardless of what they actually look like, I'd say the most important difference is that Japanese mermaids are associated with being eaten, or being caught in a fisherman's net, while Western mermaids are associated with sailors and shipwrecks and drowning. I want to off-handedly say it's the difference between a sailing culture and a fishing culture, but I'm sure it's much ore complicated than that (if that premise is even true in the first place).

[cuc]

The fusion of Japanese and Western culture is exactly what ZUN is riffing on with regard to Wakasagihime.

The OP argued that ZUN would have written 種族：マーメイド if he intended for Wakasagihime to be a Western mermaid. However, it is not only Western culture that appropriated foreign mythical creatures using their own ones. The difference between English and Danish mermaids has been mentioned; let's talk about Japan.

You should understand, the extremely widespread use of English loanwords in Japanese happens relatively late in the 20th century. Before the Japanese became used to turning every other English word into a katakana loanword, how would they prefer to translate "mermaid"? "Ningyo", of course.

Thus, HC Andersen's fairy tale "The Little Mermaid" is known as 『人魚姫』 "Ningyo-hime" in Japanese, while the Japanese title of the Disney movie is『リトル・マーメイド』 "LITTLE MERMAID": different cultures of translation in different times.

The Japanese can definitely differentiate between the Japanese ningyo and the Western mermaid, however, the classical Western fairy tales have been so deeply ingrained in Japanese culture that a post-WWII Japanese might actually be more familiar with the Western version of "ningyo".

When it comes to Wakasagihime, she has the appearance of a Western mermaid; she's also a "princess" who loves singing. I'd argue it's already impossible to distinguish between Japanese and Western ningyo/mermaid on her. And that's exactly part of the point of her character.

So should her profile translation be changed? There definitely is information loss in changing "ningyo" into the same word as her song title, when they were deliberately different - a juxtaposition of a Japanese youkai and a Western legend. However, I'm not sure this is significant enough to be worth the added difficulty in understanding at the moment.

[Omegahugger]

The weeaboo is strong with this thread... You can tell by how everyone constantly repeats the same things in massive text-walls but make no attempt to reach any solid conclusion. Fascinating!

::sits back and watches everyone waving their japenises around wildly in a vain attempt to compare lenghts::

Doesn't it just boil down to what language the target audience of the wiki is? If johnny-two-shoes wanders over to the wiki and sees her species listed as "Ningyo", will he understand more clearly than if he sees it listed as "Mermaid"? It sounds like everyone's overthinking this to the point where it's ridiculous (even going as far as trying to mind-read ZUN's intentions via her theme's name... regardless of his personal intentions, a rose by any other name, and such, you know?).

And aren't the various sections in the article made for the sort of explanation that would clarify any ambiguity with regards to these matters? Lil' johnny-two-shoes probably won't give half the fucks given in this thread, he's just trying to know what a "wakasagihime" is - if he does, he can just read the article for more details.

[cuc]

Lil' johnny-two-shoes probably won't give half the fucks given in this thread, he's just trying to know what a "wakasagihime" is - if he does, he can just read the article for more details.

Which was part of my point. The purpose of translation is communication. The only reason translation matters at all is in its effect on the reader. Do we want the reader to look at "ningyo" in confusion when they read up the profile, or do we want to spare them this moment?

In my professional translation work, I've come to think that there's a difficulty "budget" in your translation. There are only so many new words and expressions you can introduce before the readers throw up their hands in defeat. Making translation feel natural to the target audience is not the only worthwhile goal in translation. There's real merit in translation that makes the reader aware of the distance between the target and the source cultures - that is also a kind of communication. However, a translator must choose their battle. (And foreign language loanwords should not be abused.)

Speaking of that, in Japan, "ningyo" is an easy word even children can understand...

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Since I was the one that created the topic, it's expected that I'd make more presence on it. But I'm really having trouble to reply to everyone other than saying "that's true". Well, I can say that most people here contributed a lot to the thread and brought up some good points. Points that I wasn't aware of while creating my first post. Now it feels more clear to me why opting for the use of "mermaid" instead of "ningyo". So, maybe we should leave the translation as it is?

Thank you for the enlightenment, everyone.

I think your being pedantic, if not a bit weeabooy,

...and your point was... to insult me, I guess? Did you know that your "weaboo" is an offensive term?  I could go further on this and defend myself, but I really don't want to cause an unnecessary shitstorm here. This is a discussion about Wakasagihime after all, so I want to keep things nice and clean.

[Tengukami]

Y

The weeaboo is strong with this thread... You can tell by how everyone constantly repeats the same things in massive text-walls but make no attempt to reach any solid conclusion. Fascinating!

::sits back and watches everyone waving their japenises around wildly in a vain attempt to compare lenghts::

If you can't make your point without first being a smug prick, don't bother making it at all. This preface was entirely unnecesary and accomplishes nothing but demonstrating your condescension. Keep it civil.

[TresserT]

...and your point was... to insult me, I guess? Did you know that your "weaboo" is an offensive term?  I could go further on this and defend myself, but I really don't want to cause an unnecessary shitstorm here. This is a discussion about Wakasagihime after all, so I want to keep things nice and clean.

I know this isn't the point of the topic and if this is considered spam I'm sorry and I'm okay with a mod taking this post down, but I just want to say thank you for that. There aren't enough people around big enough to just ignore petty insults.

[an unmatched sock]

Guys, why just argue over which answer to a question with vague evidence is right when you could have the wiki edited to list Wakasagihime's species as "Japanese mermaid/Ningyo"? This way it removes confusion and gives a context for what a Ningyo is, since it's right next to "mermaid". In this sense, is there really a need for extremes one way or the other? There's evidence pointing towards both species, and they're already similar enough from what I've read.

Unless there's a rule stating that "SPECIES NAME MUST BE ABSOLUTE, NO VAGUENESS ALLOWED ON THIS WIKI" that I was unaware of. Or any other reason that I may have overlooked.

[Prime32]

Guys, why just argue over which answer to a question with vague evidence is right when you could have the wiki edited to list Wakasagihime's species as "Japanese mermaid/Ningyo"? This way it removes confusion and gives a context for what a Ningyo is, since it's right next to "mermaid". In this sense, is there really a need for extremes one way or the other? There's evidence pointing towards both species, and they're already similar enough from what I've read.

Because no one bothers to do that for "Danish mermaid/Havfrue" or any other country.

Both "mermaid" and "ningyo" refer primarily to the same creature, a woman with a fish's tail found in books and movies. They refer secondarily to local myths about similar creatures. And in any case those myths have been influencing each other for a long time, due to being spread by people whose job involves travelling long distances - it's hard to get a "pure" example. Compare vampires, which are a composite of tons of different mythological creatures but barely resemble any of them.

[an unmatched sock]

Because no one bothers to do that for "Danish mermaid/Havfrue" or any other country.

Mm, true, good point. Carry on then, I'll just see myself out.

[aListers]

...and your point was... to insult me, I guess? Did you know that your "weaboo" is an offensive term?  I could go further on this and defend myself, but I really don't want to cause an unnecessary shitstorm here. This is a discussion about Wakasagihime after all, so I want to keep things nice and clean.

Well I did and that was kind of the reason I used the word - though insulting you wasn't really my intention. It may just be a clash of cultures here because back in my days you would use offensive words for the meaning rather than just throwing them around for the sake of throwing them around. Weeabooy is the closest word to match what I meant and the insulting tone was how we spoke back then. Don't take it too much to heart. It's more like going hard on you because I love you - not in that way but you get the idea.

Nonetheless my point still stands but I do think that others have answered it much better than I have. I also would rather not cause an unnecessary shitstorm for those reasons so lets just leave this as a misunderstanding based on my archaic language.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Well I did and that was kind of the reason I used the word - though insulting you wasn't really my intention. It may just be a clash of cultures here because back in my days you would use offensive words for the meaning rather than just throwing them around for the sake of throwing them around. Weeabooy is the closest word to match what I meant and the insulting tone was how we spoke back then. Don't take it too much to heart. It's more like going hard on you because I love you - not in that way but you get the idea.

Nonetheless my point still stands but I do think that others have answered it much better than I have. I also would rather not cause an unnecessary shitstorm for those reasons so lets just leave this as a misunderstanding based on my archaic language.

Oh, that's completely fine then. ^^ Sorry for misunderstanding you.

(Just wanting to ensure you that I read your post and accepted the apology. And well... I don't know much else to add to the thread)  :ohdear:

[Koneko]

Because no one bothers to do that for "Danish mermaid/Havfrue" or any other country.

Both "mermaid" and "ningyo" refer primarily to the same creature, a woman with a fish's tail found in books and movies. They refer secondarily to local myths about similar creatures. And in any case those myths have been influencing each other for a long time, due to being spread by people whose job involves travelling long distances - it's hard to get a "pure" example. Compare vampires, which are a composite of tons of different mythological creatures but barely resemble any of them.

Totally agree with this one
In addition, if people want to translate the wiki into their language, they will eventually find a word in their language to describe her rather than the original Japanese term, because it is easier to understand. ("Mermaid" is one case, which you have noticed)
However, I think it is better to add the term "Ningyo" to the dedscription, since she was base on Japanese myths in the first place

[game2011]

It seems that the American language is constantly trying to use specific terms as much as possible.  In Chinese, we don't really try to differentiate things all that much.

Mice and rat, for example, are both called "老鼠/Lǎoshǔ." Crows and ravens are both called "烏鴉/Wūyā," so to Chinese speakers, both Aya and Utsuho are the exact same species.

This applies for mythological and supernatural beings as well.  Phoenixes are one example.  In Chinese, "鳳凰/F?nghu?ng" is more or less the catch-all term for both the Chinese and Western variants, but some people do differentiate the Western one by calling it "不死鳥/B?sǐniǎo," though for the most part, "鳳凰" is used instead.  In English, it's as if most people insist on calling the Chinese version "fenghuang" and the Western version "phoenix."

The same case is applied to mermaid and ningyo.  In Chinese, "人魚/r?ny?," is the catch-all term for all kinds of mermaids.  We Chinese speakers wouldn't debate on whether Wakasagihime is a ningyo or a mermaid, because "人魚" is what we call those mythical beings with human upper torsos and fish lower torsos, regardless of the origin country.

I think insisting that Wakasaghime should be a "ningyo" and not a "mermaid" would be similar to saying that people in Japan are not people, but "hitobito," which is Japanese for "people." "Ningyo" is simply the Japanese translation for "mermaid," so there's absolutely nothing wrong with calling her the latter.  You don't go around calling Japanese people "hitobito," do you?

[Clarste]

Crows and ravens are both called "烏鴉/Wūyā," so to Chinese speakers, both Aya and Utsuho are the exact same species.

They're also the same in Japanese, which means the distinction was introduced entirely by English translators out of nothing. This is something that bugs me. It's like translating Aya as a tengu and Hatate as a goblin.

[N-Forza]

I thought the idea of the Yatagarasu being a raven was pre-established, though.

[Colticide]

They're also the same in Japanese, which means the distinction was introduced entirely by English translators out of nothing. This is something that bugs me. It's like translating Aya as a tengu and Hatate as a goblin.

(Aya) 鴉天狗  (Utsuho) 地獄鴉 Well dang your right, I didn't notice these kana until I started typing out a counter argument. Then I wonder if 地獄 makes it translate to hell raven for other reasons we don't know about, I'm genuinely curious about this now. Thank you!

Any that's off topic, kinda piggybacking off of cuc's point but it seems ZUN like to mix cultures into the characters. (that's obvious lol) But I get the feeling that Wakasagihime is meant to not be one or the other but both in one, like the legends of Mermaids and Ningyo were similar enough that she was born from all those legends. Sorry if my point is weird I'm having trouble explaining what I mean. Ahh I tried to explain something about Sekibanki but don't think it really fits too well. I think once Ningyo becomes more common she may be refered to that instead of mermaid. I mean most people use the word baka while in English because most people are familiar with what it means (even though it's a bit weird), we don't call Youkai Ghosts or Phantoms because we understand what a Youkai is and there are other species that are similar in name.

TL;DR: Good, that whole paragraph is a mess, I'll just stick to reading the topic rather then put my two cents in. (My exchange rate is in the negative)

[Clarste]

I thought the idea of the Yatagarasu being a raven was pre-established, though.

Well, I don't know about that (wikipedia lists it under Three-legged Crow and calls it "a raven or a crow"), but even if that's pre-established, that doesn't mean Utsuho has to be a hell raven instead of a hell crow. I think making an arbitrary distinction there is more confusing than believing that a hell crow can use the power of a sun raven. Because, as you can see, there are now people who believe that Aya and Utsuho are based on different animals when that was never the intent in Japanese.

[SirSlarty]

Waggysaggy's classification is sashimi according to Marisa.

[Sparrow Song]

Hmm, it isn't the first time I've seen a Ningyo called a Mermaid.  I suppose people are right in saying it's the translated term for the "English counterpart".  Still, I'll stick with mermaid myself when referring to her species.  I'm too used to it already.