Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 14F (Read 219679 times)

Kirin no Sora · « **Reply #750 on:** July 17, 2015, 01:58:12 PM »

Um, the fact that it gives him 6 points per training manual is kind of the point of this skill, as his High Boost skills are expensive and you can only get training manuals at random from bosses, making this skill not as powerful as you may think. After all, the challenge here for him would be to gain the training manuals to help him out in the first place. I'm more or less at the end of the game, and I have close to 40 of those training manuals, and I haven't used any of them.

And the simple fact is that even with those skills maxed out, he's still not that good due to the fact that he has no attack spells of his own outside of subclasses, so the fact that gems are more potent on him than on anyone else helps him with that. And while I'm aware that he's primarily meant to tank and support, bear in mind that none of the offensive subclass spells are that strong to begin with, so there's no real harm in having him gain better stats than everyone else if he doesn't have any truly powerful spells to use them on. Raw stat power alone do not break the game, after all.

Plus, I stated before that at max level, 1 training manual equals 1 SLv in one of his High Boost skills, so you would need 5 of them to max out HP, TP, ATK, DEF, MAG, MND, SPD, EVA, ACC, Elemental Affinity, and Status Resistance, which leads to 55 Training manuals on top of the twenty that you would need to power the skill itself(the reason that I don't count MP is due to it's lower cost, so it should be covered by normal skill points), which is far more than you would expect to see in a single playthrough of the game. That means that you can't cover every High Boost with this skill, because there just aren't enough training manuals to go around to do so.

The only thing that this skill would really make him is a mid to late game bloomer, and that's only if you can get enough items to power him up in the first place. Random chance and all that rot.

Serela · « **Reply #751 on:** July 17, 2015, 08:15:53 PM »

I already think Rinnosuke becomes worth using around the purple stratum, so, giving him a few hundred more skillpoints... >.>; He doesn't need to easily become one of the best tanks AND a great attacker at the same time, along with making it very easy to get every tanky-bonus High Boost even before expansion starts.

Validon98 · « **Reply #752 on:** July 17, 2015, 08:57:30 PM »

You can't really say "raw stat power alone does not break the game" when the game is mostly a game of numbers. If you have insanely powerful stats, it doesn't matter if all you can use are the subclass skills, it's going to be going overboard. Rinnosuke is enough of a late bloomer as it is, he really doesn't need to get any sort of major boost that allows him to get better stats much earlier than intended. I mean, the developers gave him the High Boosts and made them expensive for a reason, why would they add a skill that completely breaks the intended balance of those skills?

Kirin no Sora · « **Reply #753 on:** July 18, 2015, 12:19:20 PM »

Quote from: Selery on July 17, 2015, 08:15:53 PM

I already think Rinnosuke becomes worth using around the purple stratum, so, giving him a few hundred more skillpoints... >.>; He doesn't need to easily become one of the best tanks AND a great attacker at the same time, along with making it very easy to get every tanky-bonus High Boost even before expansion starts.

Allow me to say this again: this skill is dependent on special items that you get from bosses. The most that you'll likely get from this skill without grinding on the final boss for days on end is somewhere between 60 (for 10 training manuals) to 120(for 20 training manuals), meaning that he would need to be over level 200 to have the points needed to max out everything, and that's presuming that you're lucky enough to already have that in addition to the 20 training manuals needed to make this skill free.

Also, while he's normally not meant to be anything more than a tank for the most part, bear in mind that most of the Boost skills aim for stats that are defensive in some way. Only ATK and MAG help on offense directly, and Rinnosuke could just as easily use that for healing. Besides, if you're using level 200 characters, you're effectively overleveled for the current post-game content anyway, so a level 200 Rinnosuke is a "ready for plus disk" character in the first place. I know that you guys say that he shouldn't be able to do so until he's well into the plus disk content, but still...

Quote from: Validon98 on July 17, 2015, 08:57:30 PM

You can't really say "raw stat power alone does not break the game" when the game is mostly a game of numbers. If you have insanely powerful stats, it doesn't matter if all you can use are the subclass skills, it's going to be going overboard. Rinnosuke is enough of a late bloomer as it is, he really doesn't need to get any sort of major boost that allows him to get better stats much earlier than intended. I mean, the developers gave him the High Boosts and made them expensive for a reason, why would they add a skill that completely breaks the intended balance of those skills?

Given that most of those stats do not aid in offensive power, it's not as bad as you're implying. At best, Rinnosuke will likely become one of the best tanks that you'll have, but given that enemies and bosses are stupid hard in post-game, and the plus disk is stated to become even more challenging than that...

Honestly, having Rinnosuke at full power at the start of the expansion would likely not be a game breaker at all. And as I said, if you're using characters that have hit level 200 already, then you're overleveled for the post-game content, so a level 200 Rinnosuke is effectively a "plus disk" character already.

Besides, the thing that would likely break the game from this skill are the gems, not the training manuals, if what you say is true, since applying two gems on Rinnosuke would equal twelve gems on anyone else, which is two more than they're allowed to have. So, if anything, the only part of the skill that I would remove for the sake of avoiding any issues of being OP is the part where it affects the gems.

The real question is whether Rinnosuke with all his High Boosts fully active would make any of the cast obsolete, and I would imagine that the answer is no, because of their spells and skills making them better than he'll ever be offensively.

DarkAtma · « **Reply #754 on:** July 18, 2015, 02:40:34 PM »

Rinnosuke should be able to change back to a MANnosuke sub-class once you get the ame no murakumo drop

Just equip it to him and voila he suddenly got a second subclass and More Or different spellcards from LoT 1

Like those games that rewards you a very powerfull item from defeating the final bonus boss, dude you already beated the final boss so why give me something so broken?

Nerv-Faktor · « **Reply #755 on:** July 18, 2015, 04:19:48 PM »

The deal breaker is that things like those attack or defense-increasing gems from locked chests would also have their effect aplied 6 times. If the limit for those items would still be 10 for him that means he could get 60 boosts which is absolutely ridiculous.

His stats would be way higher than those of the other characters and since buffs in this game are percent-based it would get even more ridiculous after buffs. With the skill you described it would reach the point where subclass spells are major nukes with low delay on Rinnosuke and he'd also be the best tank in the game at the same time.

If the point of your idea was to make the high boost skills more achievable then the obvious idea would be to simply make the high boost skills cheaper to learn.

Serela · « **Reply #756 on:** July 18, 2015, 10:23:58 PM »

Quote

to have the points needed to max out everything

see this is kind of where the problem is

You're looking at this from the viewpoint that Rinnosuke needs to be able to max out most of his stuff to be worth using. You also assume someone will have 10~20 training manuals. I just opened my save and Rinno has 40 on, and I didn't do -any- extraneous grinding in the game. Maybe they'd have 20 late in the main game? A point where it's still going to be an obscenely large explosion of skill points that makes Rinnosuke ridiculously good, when he already would have been good enough to be worth using without them.

Koog · « **Reply #757 on:** July 18, 2015, 11:22:12 PM »

Any news on the Disk?? I've been waiting for a looong while... I would like some news...

Shadow1176 · « **Reply #758 on:** July 19, 2015, 03:05:03 AM »

I've heard that it'll be be released in August, during Comiket.

Edit: Oh cool, someone changed my Avi.

jaxter0987 · « **Reply #759 on:** July 19, 2015, 05:45:02 PM »

For reference, Rinnosuke needs to be level 283 to max out all of his default skills without training manuals.

Quote from: Kirin no Sora on July 18, 2015, 12:19:20 PM

The most that you'll likely get from this skill without grinding on the final boss for days on end is somewhere between 60 (for 10 training manuals) to 120(for 20 training manuals), meaning that he would need to be over level 200 to have the points needed to max out everything, and that's presuming that you're lucky enough to already have that in addition to the 20 training manuals needed to make this skill free.

Why do you keep making that point? Why does the skill have to be "free"? Why would you waste training manuals like that when you have normal level up skill points (and when training manuals get more benefits when you use them later)? The first thing I would do if I was planning on using Rinnosuke from the beginning is use the skill points I get from level ups up until level 18 (because you start out with 3 skill points at level 1) to max your supposed skill and then just throw every training manual at him.

I don't really think Rinnosuke needs a buff at all as he is plenty usable already. If anything, a simple reduction in cost to his 6 point high boost skills is all he would need. Reducing them to 5 points per level up would reduce his level requirement to max every default skill out by 25 levels. Reducing it to 4 points for the 6 point high boost skills makes his level requirement go down to 233, which is much more reasonable than your skill.

Also, I have 51 training manuals and I haven't used a single one. Excluding final boss grinding, I'd estimate I'd have 35-40 training manuals. I won't ever be using them, but I think that's more than enough manuals for people who have already decided their end game team.

Koog · « **Reply #760 on:** July 19, 2015, 09:59:09 PM »

Quote from: Shadow1176 on July 19, 2015, 03:05:03 AM

I've heard that it'll be be released in August, during Comiket.

Okay! I'll be expecting a lot from it (and Nue plz)!

Fishin · « **Reply #761 on:** July 20, 2015, 09:59:46 AM »

Quote from: Shadow1176 on July 19, 2015, 03:05:03 AM

I've heard that it'll be be released in August, during Comiket.

That'd be the logical time to release it, but c88 is less than a month away and afaik it still hasn't been announced, I don't see anything about it on his twitter at least.

CrazyManiacz · « **Reply #762 on:** July 20, 2015, 03:22:03 PM »

Are there any characters confirmed besides Futo and Shou? Really hoping for Koishi <3
Her hat is her friend, it helps her relax <3<3<3<3<3 I wonder, if Koishi's in the game, will Satori be able to use her spellcards?

Serela · « **Reply #763 on:** July 20, 2015, 04:05:38 PM »

I heard Koishi was confirmed from a screenshot or something like that. That was quite awhile ago though, not 100% sure if I remember correctly.

Nightassassain · « **Reply #764 on:** July 20, 2015, 10:04:34 PM »

I think mamizao was also confirmed. Along with miko.

qazmlpok · « **Reply #765 on:** July 21, 2015, 02:12:26 AM »

Quote

On the case Mamizou and Miko are confirmed. From floor events Kokoro and Koishi are confirmed.

and futo and shou from the website

Nightassassain · « **Reply #766 on:** July 21, 2015, 04:11:24 AM »

So... that leaves what? Four new characters? Anyone have any hopes for who they may be?
I am personally hoping Minamitsu Murasa, Seiga Kaku, Tewi Inaba, and Kyouko Kasodani.
But... if they go into Double dealing character then definitely Wakasagihime, and Raiko Horikawa.

CrazyManiacz · « **Reply #767 on:** July 21, 2015, 02:28:41 PM »

~~Shameimaru~~Shinmyoumaru might be included, since she was recently included in the fighting game... maybe she might have a Missing Power kind of move that can be used on allies? Lowers evade, too... :V Hated that spellcard...

2 new characters btw. Shou, Futo, Miko, Mamizou, Koishi, and Kokoro are confirmed, I guess?

Thata no Guykoro · « **Reply #768 on:** July 21, 2015, 07:31:17 PM »

Honestly, I'm hoping for 12 total new characters myself. It'd all add up since we'd get a total of 60 like how LoT1 ended up with a total of 40 (and 56 is a weird number, imo). But yeah, that's the 6 we know of so far.

Unfortunately I dunno if it'll actually be at C88, we might get yet another delay.

unknown_person · « **Reply #769 on:** July 22, 2015, 11:26:54 AM »

I'm having trouble deciding who to spend Library points on, since their the only things that need Tomes of Reincarnation (are there any way to get more of them). This ties into my troubles with the my endgame party.

Reimu (Healer), Sanae (Herbalist), Byakuren (Strategist), Wriggle (Toxicologist), Flandre (Monk) and Kasen (Warrior) are characters I'm really happy with.

Yukari (Magician), Aya (Diva) and Komachi (Guardian) are working out, but I don't know if I could do better.

Nitori (Transecendent) is great, but I'm wondering if there's a better subclass.

The other two are Marisa (Gambler) and Alice (Sorceror), because Malice Cannon doesn't require them to next to each other... but I wonder if they're better Magic attackers than them. I want to try Kaguya/Patchouli, but I have only 4 tomes of reincarnation left and don't want to mess it up.

Advice would be appreciated.

Serela · « **Reply #770 on:** July 23, 2015, 04:46:45 AM »

You can always keep a backup save since there's many slots, test it out, and if the numbers aren't what you hoped for, switch to someone else again.

Transcendent is the definitive class for Nitori due to her low base stats and having high damage+high defense to make use of it's other passive. Her base stats are very meh but work anyway due to extreme maintenance tweaking, so the "___ Boost" passives and the Transcendant bonuses are VERY powerful to her. The sheer stat increase is rarely contested by other class bonuses, basically only when you could -really- use a different attack element for some boss or the Monk's def piercing one.

Alicirno · « **Reply #771 on:** July 23, 2015, 11:46:05 AM »

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but how do you even get started on beating the Knowledge's Shadow.

jaxter0987 · « **Reply #772 on:** July 23, 2015, 12:50:27 PM »

Quote from: aman on July 22, 2015, 11:26:54 AM

I'm having trouble deciding who to spend Library points on, since their the only things that need Tomes of Reincarnation (are there any way to get more of them). This ties into my troubles with the my endgame party.

Reimu (Healer), Sanae (Herbalist), Byakuren (Strategist), Wriggle (Toxicologist), Flandre (Monk) and Kasen (Warrior) are characters I'm really happy with.

Yukari (Magician), Aya (Diva) and Komachi (Guardian) are working out, but I don't know if I could do better.

Nitori (Transecendent) is great, but I'm wondering if there's a better subclass.

The other two are Marisa (Gambler) and Alice (Sorceror), because Malice Cannon doesn't require them to next to each other... but I wonder if they're better Magic attackers than them. I want to try Kaguya/Patchouli, but I have only 4 tomes of reincarnation left and don't want to mess it up.

Advice would be appreciated.

I feel like you're grossly misunderstanding how the skill reset function works in the library. You can ALWAYS reset your skill points and sub classes for free. The only thing Tomes of Reincarnation do is refund any gems, Tomes (the ones that unlock additional boost skills) and Training Manuals you may have used on a character.

I somehow misread library points. Yeah the Money spent on those are gone unless you use Tomes of Reincarnation, but farming more money is so easy that it should be a non factor in considering when to use them. That said, my struck through text is still true with the addition of refunding Money spent on library points. If you're worried about overleveling, don't be. The level down feature exists for a reason.

Just hit the skill reset button and select no on the use Tome of Reincarnation confirmation.

Quote from: Alicirno on July 23, 2015, 11:46:05 AM

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but how do you even get started on beating the Knowledge's Shadow.

You're not missing anything obvious. Knowledge's Shadow gains additional weaknesses in

Spoiler:

that weren't present in the first version. All I can say without outright giving the answer is try to look for ways to mitigate damage. Having better defensive stats isn't the only way to mitigate damage.

Kirin no Sora · « **Reply #773 on:** July 23, 2015, 01:41:05 PM »

Quote from: jaxter0987 on July 19, 2015, 05:45:02 PM

For reference, Rinnosuke needs to be level 283 to max out all of his default skills without training manuals.Why do you keep making that point? Why does the skill have to be "free"? Why would you waste training manuals like that when you have normal level up skill points (and when training manuals get more benefits when you use them later)? The first thing I would do if I was planning on using Rinnosuke from the beginning is use the skill points I get from level ups up until level 18 (because you start out with 3 skill points at level 1) to max your supposed skill and then just throw every training manual at him.

I don't really think Rinnosuke needs a buff at all as he is plenty usable already. If anything, a simple reduction in cost to his 6 point high boost skills is all he would need. Reducing them to 5 points per level up would reduce his level requirement to max every default skill out by 25 levels. Reducing it to 4 points for the 6 point high boost skills makes his level requirement go down to 233, which is much more reasonable than your skill.

Also, I have 51 training manuals and I haven't used a single one. Excluding final boss grinding, I'd estimate I'd have 35-40 training manuals. I won't ever be using them, but I think that's more than enough manuals for people who have already decided their end game team.

You do realize that that skill effectively requires 20 x 5, or rather, 100 skill points to max out by itself, right? And the fact that one would have around 30 to 40 training manuals by endgame is the point I'm making here, along with the fact that I'm pointing out that if you're using a guy like him, then there wouldn't be a reason to not give him the tomes that give him the other High Boost skills, and that's the real reason for this skill: to allow him to max out his High Boost abilities, including the ones that you get from tomes(meaning that you'll need 330 skill points to turn them all on), by end game / post game, since while he'll be a good tank for most of the time, the sheer power from all the High Boosts being active should be plenty for him to work with by the start of plus disk, unless you're saying that he really shouldn't have all of that by then.

But since everyone is objecting to Rinnosuke having all of his High Boosts, including the ones from the Tomes, all active to him, I'll just drop it, okay? I really don't like having issues from something like this.

jaxter0987 · « **Reply #774 on:** July 24, 2015, 10:29:24 AM »

Quote from: Kirin no Sora on July 23, 2015, 01:41:05 PM

You do realize that that skill effectively requires 20 x 5, or rather, 100 skill points to max out by itself, right?

I completely misread the skill so my level 18 comment was incorrect. But that's all I'll say about the topic anymore

Otaku · « **Reply #775 on:** July 25, 2015, 07:24:37 PM »

Wait, is there coming a special disc for LoT 2? Cause that's pretty awesome (some of you wrote that Miko was coming, which just makes me really hype)

Gamewise, i'm stuck on floor 7/8 in LoT 2, mostly because i can't beat the bosses... (i'm also new here, so i don't know how this site works all that well)

qazmlpok · « **Reply #776 on:** July 26, 2015, 01:09:48 AM »

Plus-disk, yes. We don't know when. Given that there still haven't been any announcements on his blog since June of last year, I highly doubt it'll be released this coming comiket.

Xarizzar · « **Reply #777 on:** July 26, 2015, 09:46:43 PM »

Well, he doesn't really seem to care much for his blog, at present. Remember that trial thing on May? Apparently it existed, but he posted news about it on Twitter, not his blog. I mean, Twitter might have probably been a better place in this case, but still.

I can't really say I think he'll release it this Comiket though.

Kuilfrayt · « **Reply #778 on:** July 27, 2015, 01:56:51 AM »

I've checked on the Comiket website, and it looks like the circle wasn't registered for the 88. So I guess we'll have to keep waiting and hoping

Xarizzar · « **Reply #779 on:** August 01, 2015, 05:46:31 AM »

So, has anybody found the "hidden" boss of LoT2 (Not the one in LoT1)? Because from what I remember from the thread the Soundtracks had been posted, an extra theme for a hidden boss was there. Or was that not put in the game yet?