Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 14F

[Axel Ryman]

Honestly? Chen, Remilia, Marisa, and Utsuho. Well, Marisa has some good use early on but falls down for better Magic damage dealers. Chen just doesn't have the damage output to be useful, Utsuho's damage dealing leaves a lot more to be desired, and Remilia is...well Remilia.


I'd add more, but I think that's more I never really used them often enough. I guess I could add Tenshi to the list too. She's good for both DEF and MND tanking, but usually you only need one or the other in fights, and in that case, there are better choices.

[Spiffspoo]

The developer says that the game was balanced so that
Beginning : Doable with spell attacks.
Mid-game : Doable by properly allocating level-up bonuses to attackers.
End-game : Doable with above + hitting weaknesses.

But in the Plus Disk, the developer will balance the game so that it will be hard without proper preparations,
and for rare enemies, there might be casualties even with proper preparations.
To balance this out, the developer will reduce encounter rates and give more experience points so that it changes from
'10 to 30 battles per 1 exploration' to 'party is almost wiped out after 10 battles due to TP reduction, but uses less time battling because of above changes.'

This is about non-boss enemies, by the way.

The End Game difficulty spike for LoT2 was BS and uneven though.  The random encounters had the enemies just become super fast and have insane defense all of a sudden at the beginning , and the same goes to the enhanced bosses. Fist 5 enhanced bosses were a jump in difficulty, but after you could beat them the next set of bosses were not that much harder but the trash would still wreck you for being so damn fast.

From my experience and from what I have read in previous threads, the enhanced bosses on floor 20 were actually harder than the deformed and secret bosses.  Hell it only took me 2 tries to beat the enhanced last boss, and like 20 for the god damn enhanced mirror.  I was expecting something like Meribel ver 2, and all I got was a Yukari ver 2. 

You had to level way past the challenge level just to get the necessary level up points and money to level up your stats.  In the main game the only time I was really over the challenge level for fighting a boss was Yuuka, and even then I only had my library stats at about half of my levels.  I needed to go over 1.2 my level for End Game, and that took more time to get the money for it than the actual leveling

The difficulty curve for the main game was pretty good I think, though I think that it could have been smoothed out a bit once you get to floor 16.  That and floor 20 depths should have been harder I think for the experience you get and when compared to the difficulty spike for the last boss and end game.

[DarkAtma]

sad thing is, i use marisa, remilia and utsuho, IMO it goes like this for me Remilia>Utsuho>marisa, marisa almost never used or dumped, remilia is for bosses and utsuho for thrash clear or to pierce the mirror/magatama

[Shadowlupus]

Hello, I am new to this forum. I really like Touhou series and I look forward to new official games and fangames every now and then.

Well, back to the topic, I really enjoy Labyrinth of Touhou 2. It is really a huge improvement over the previous game, particularly the character artwork and dungeon, though there is some issues with the game.

About the character not worth using, Chen - Limited MP means useless in boss fight.  (Unlike the previous game where you can spam it numerous times). Nazrin - Honestly, I don't really see much different from the bonus reward.
Rinnosuke - Even with High Boost skill, his stats are still so-so.

Remilia is actually great for tanking boss attack and. What makes her different from Kasen that she has Last Fortress which makes her even more bulkier aside from buffing herself while Kasen have to make her bulky with her spell.

I tried using Remilia with ATK, DEF and MND spread equally and fight against some post-game bossses. I buffed Remilia stats up and switch her in the back row and let all of my party die, leaving only Remilia. The result? she takes 0 Damage from all enemy attacks, tanking like Tenshi while she casually spear the enemies until it dies.  (Well, except for the boss that has Regeneration).  Kasen doesn't have that skill so she still takes a lot of damage.

That is to say, I think that Remilia is for tanking and inflicting consistent damage, while Kasen is for elemental varieties and dealing one-hit huge damage.

[DarkAtma]

What i really want (Besides some balancing) Its to fix the SDM residents passive not giving Speed, and i believe meiling got one bugged passive too, thats all i ask  :V

[Serela]

The End Game difficulty spike for LoT2 was BS and uneven though.

Mm, the end game puts a big focus on the difficulty being based around not a good team, but an -ideal- team. You have to be doing stuff like debuffing even the resistant bosses to hell (because with certain characters you -totally- can, and it makes a wooooorld of difference) and using mind ignoring characters on the ones with insurmountable defenses, etc.

So, for most teams, it just becomes stupid hard, even if it's a well-made team that took you through the maingame just great. You can totally do it at the challenge level without toooo much trouble, but you HAVE to use an ideal team rather than just characters you like that make a pretty good team.

As for enemy speed, maybe you weren't paying enough attention to library levels in speed or your team was mostly really slow? o.o I had trouble with enemy speed in the last non-postgame stratum but that's because I was sitting on like 90%+ of the money I'd made all game because I stubbornly wished to get the massive yen achievement. The moment I spent it randoms became really easy again. Postgame randoms, you just need to be able to deal with the high def/mnd ones, because the game just doesn't let you progress without someone who can ignore a heavy chunk of that- and even monk's mountain breaker will not cut it anymore.

I'd say Utsuho isn't -useless-, partially because Giga Flare is one of those precious piercing moves, but I do admit that I honestly don't think she's very good otherwise. Chen probably has to be built very specifically in order to pump numbers out, but I wouldn't write her off until I tried her in such a build. (aka, pump her ATK base value, as it's super duper low and therefore gets a heavy increase when tweaked) Overall though, she struggles to output damage and it makes her not very good. :T (The MP really, really is not the issue.) I hear Yukari's team nuke kicks butt, though.

Rinnosuke, I used all game (he was just for the yen/item boost for awhile obviously, but) and he's pretty solid once you get the high boosts going. You have to give him manuals to unlock his other ones; speed boost and resistance boost are pretty neat. And of course, he hungers for a subclass with moves he doesn't have to dump 25 points into to become not-useless.

[Kirin no Sora]

Welcome to MotK, Kageshirou. We hope that you enjoy the forum and your stay here in general, as there is no exit from the Touhou fandom...

Back on topic, Chen is often not considered useful due to either MP problems or due to not being able to deal enough damage. The former can be solved by using MP boosting equipment or giving her Hexer's Conversion from the Hexer sub-class. As for the latter, though...

I will say it once, and I will say it a thousand times. Why does Chen not have the skill Piercing Attack? If she had that, then it would remove the only flaw in her playstyle of rapid attack spamming, and let her grind everything that she claws on to nothing. Essentially, a Chensaw.

As for Remilia, she is a very good attacker that can endure well, and if issues with her current skillset is a problem, then giving her the Warrior or Monk subclass and their spells should solve that issue.

Marisa also benefits from a subclass for the sake of making her more useful, essentially since she can actually be useful as a Mind Tank with some boosting in HP and her affinities in Voile(boosting a 90 affinity to 100 takes 12 levels, so boosting from 88 shouldn't be much of a issue) and a First Aid Kit, along with the appropriate sub-equips. As for her Ailment Resistances, a Resist Tome may be needed to help in that problem, as 10 + 15(from the tome) = 25, which raises them from 'abysmal' to 'workable if you have some ailment resistance equipment', and her Lively and Healthy skill can also help against everything outside of instant death. Sub-classes that can help her include Sorcerer(for helping further in her damaging potential), Toxicologist (giving her utility against enemies thanks to the ailment piercing Sheer Force), and Hexer (same as Toxicologist, but with debuffs).

And Utsuho... Sigh. She's kind of a character that needs to be developed a lot to get what you really need out of her(Resist and Affinity Tomes are needed to help fix her weak points, along with a heavy investment via Voile). And in all honesty, I don't use her much at all. Personally, though, I wish that they did three things to her spells:

1. Make it so that Giga Flare ignore ALL of the enemies Mind again, because nerfing said spell to not do so simply does not make sense at all.
2. Alter the Intense Nuclear Reaction spell so that it would buff, rather than debuff, speed, as well as increasing the buffing that it would give per use by leveling up the spell itself, as it currently doesn't do that.
3. Either raise the attack multipler on Hell's Tokamak to 124% MAG instead of 90% MAG, or have it debuff all stats by (11 + SLV)%, rather than debuffing (18 +(SLv * 2))% Mind.

I could say more, but I'm going to need time to think on it...

[Serela]

Since Giga Flare only factors 10% of enemy mind compared to the usual (This is the same as Kaguya with her ignore passive on!) it only really matters if the enemy is supposed to be invincible. But yeah, Utsuho is usable, she just needs some work. Unfortunately, the only reason you'd put in that work is if you REALLY liked her... or already used Orin and Satori. Utsuho isn't too bad, she's just not particularly great at her job either.

Marisa can MND tank for Hexer+Sheer Force synergy, but I'd sooner use Kogasa for that kind of purpose. Still, whilst the mnd vs def balance is a lot different in this game, there's still plenty of bosses where a MND type can manage fine.

[LaybrinthErrorOMFG]

Can someone tell me how to get rid of the
Debug Assertion Failed! when I try to run the 1203 English version.
I've been looking through the posts and cannot find a step by step solution to this.
(Changing off Read-Only does NOT work as it will just refresh back)

[Spiffspoo]

Mm, the end game puts a big focus on the difficulty being based around not a good team, but an -ideal- team. You have to be doing stuff like debuffing even the resistant bosses to hell (because with certain characters you -totally- can, and it makes a wooooorld of difference) and using mind ignoring characters on the ones with insurmountable defenses, etc.

So, for most teams, it just becomes stupid hard, even if it's a well-made team that took you through the maingame just great. You can totally do it at the challenge level without toooo much trouble, but you HAVE to use an ideal team rather than just characters you like that make a pretty good team.

As for enemy speed, maybe you weren't paying enough attention to library levels in speed or your team was mostly really slow? o.o I had trouble with enemy speed in the last non-postgame stratum but that's because I was sitting on like 90%+ of the money I'd made all game because I stubbornly wished to get the massive yen achievement. The moment I spent it randoms became really easy again. Postgame randoms, you just need to be able to deal with the high def/mnd ones, because the game just doesn't let you progress without someone who can ignore a heavy chunk of that- and even monk's mountain breaker will not cut it anymore.

Even with an ideal team it is retardedly uneven difficulty, and speed was one of the first things I leveled on any character, post game enemies were still stupid fast until I got my library levels in check for it.  My library levels for the main game were extremely low compared to most people, my highest stat was probably around 60.  I also had the right characters for ignoring specific defenses or targeting certain weaknesses.  I had to debuff and buff like crazy because my levels were already so low.

[Kirin no Sora]

Since Giga Flare only factors 10% of enemy mind compared to the usual (This is the same as Kaguya with her ignore passive on!) it only really matters if the enemy is supposed to be invincible. But yeah, Utsuho is usable, she just needs some work. Unfortunately, the only reason you'd put in that work is if you REALLY liked her... or already used Orin and Satori. Utsuho isn't too bad, she's just not particularly great at her job either.

Marisa can MND tank for Hexer+Sheer Force synergy, but I'd sooner use Kogasa for that kind of purpose. Still, whilst the mnd vs def balance is a lot different in this game, there's still plenty of bosses where a MND type can manage fine.

Yeah, I can see why you would want to use Kogasa over Marisa for a Hexer + Sheer Force, due to her leveling and the fact that she uses ATK for her attacking stat, even if it means that the Hexer's spells end up doing virtually no damage(Ironically, if effect matters more damage, then Toxicologist would work on Kogasa for the same reason).

Still, between Marisa's speed and the fact that she can be built easily via Voile to have no weaknesses does give her a usefulness over some of the other Mind tanks you would have on hand for a good deal of the game(looks at Patchouli).

Finally, I actually am curious to where I can put the general knowledge of "As a rule of thumb, if a character has a elemental resist of 88 or up but under 100, it can and should be fixed via Voile leveling as soon as possible. Any lower, and the cost will end up burning a hole in your wallet very quickly." in the wiki. I mean, it's a bit of knowledge that's helpful to know out of the the view that many characters have stats of that nature and can thus be patched up to have far fewer weaknesses then they would have otherwise. Characters like Hina and Parsee can end up with only one weakness under said method, and characters like Marisa and Kanako can end up with no weaknesses at all.

[vetokend]

Is there a benefit to beating the final boss of LoT2 at the "par" level?  I've beaten all the other bosses at that level for the stat-up items, but since the final boss drops one in either case, is there any benefit for taking on the challenge?

Thanks for any info,

Veto

[Serela]

It drops another one if beaten at that level, and continues to serve as the guideline of when you should fight it at for the intended challenge... as well as being a hard-stop wall in Hard Mode. But of course, if you're not in Hard Mode, there's nothing stopping you from overlevelling to blow it out of the park. You can even refight it, so you don't really need to beat it at challenge level for a gem. (It's not a very time-efficient task to farm it for them though, since you have to replay the credits each time.)

[DarkAtma]

It drops another one if beaten at that level, and continues to serve as the guideline of when you should fight it at for the intended challenge... as well as being a hard-stop wall in Hard Mode. But of course, if you're not in Hard Mode, there's nothing stopping you from overlevelling to blow it out of the park. You can even refight it, so you don't really need to beat it at challenge level for a gem. (It's not a very time-efficient task to farm it for them though, since you have to replay the credits each time.)

Or have 4-5 members at max level and Nuke it in a single move (Everyone else at 1 for challenge level)

Loving Awakening Herb(Meiling)+Attack Buff (even better if its casted several times due to sakuya passives)+Leavetin/Starbow Break (Flanfre), With remilia  (Strategist Attack buff) And SDM Bonus

[vetokend]

Understood, thanks for the information.

Wait, did I hear "max level"?  Don't tell me they threw in a cap.  The OCD grinder in me would weep.

Veto

[Serela]

He probably just means as high as their EXP allows. Although you'll have trouble getting much past 200 in any case.

[loreis]

Is LoT 2 worth it? I've never played a single LoT and I hear it's fun but...if I want to get into it should I play 1 first or...what?

[Kirin no Sora]

Nah. You can play LoT2 and not miss out on anything.

In other news, beat the Giant and the Judge(Eiki) and I have a few things to say about it.

1. Since beating the Giant was easy due to Tenshi, I'll just say something about her. Tenshi is far from bad in the HP department, although she's one of the few people that benefits from a HP build for this reason. Also, if you have a spare tome for HP Boost, giving one to her is a good idea, as she can and does tank everything that doesn't pierce her defenses easily otherwise.
2. The Judge, on the other hand, was only simple due to the fact that I used a strategy from Gesh86's walkthrough, and it worked beautifully. And I should note that a ATK build Monk Suwako is good for this fight, due to her "NTR Damage Boost" passive powering up all NTR attacks, including Iron Mountain Charge. I also used Kaguya and found that her NTR atttack spell went from 30k to 40k thanks to said passive, so it's worth it to use said passive for boosting damage.
3. That said, I completely forgot that the Judge had a fire weakness, but considering the strategy that I was using, it wouldn't of done much good.

Now then, as for me, onwards to Yukari!

[jester147]

Is LoT 2 worth it? I've never played a single LoT and I hear it's fun but...if I want to get into it should I play 1 first or...what?

You don't need to play the 1st one. It's a bit harder than the 2nd, only because the sequel has Anti-Frustration Features. The 1st one is simpler though.


Now, I'm playing LoT1 focusing on completing Plus Disk. Now I'm grinding like hell in 27F just to get on

Spoiler:

Utsuho.

The level jump is very high. Could you possibly beat them at a lower level?

[Serela]

Now, I'm playing LoT1 focusing on completing Plus Disk. Now I'm grinding like hell in 27F just to get on

Spoiler:

Utsuho.

The level jump is very high. Could you possibly beat them at a lower level?

Honestly, it doesn't really matter at that point; beating them at a lower level (depending on what yours is?) is doable but just an exercise in frustration due to how her fight works, Utsuho is a contender for most useless character in the game when recruited, and you have nothing ahead of you but hours of grinding regardless. Although, if you haven't done 28~29f, there's always going through those for a change of pace. 29f is actually a breath of fresh air; it's neat but not difficult or very long to explore.

[Kirin no Sora]

Question to the folks who fought Ame no Murakumo: does it just drop gems, or is there a chance for it to drop a training manual?

[DarkAtma]

Question to the folks who fought Ame no Murakumo: does it just drop gems, or is there a chance for it to drop a training manual?

It drops both.....Unless i am wrong, but i am pretty sure it dropped both

When at challenge level-> 2 items i believe (Must check again)
Above Challenge level->1 item

I Always got 1 manual and 1 gem

EDIT: RESULTS


This is My Ame Enhanced Farming Frontline (Both Arms Die to Flandre Leavetin, 2M Damage or something around that, and leaves sword with about 30% Hp


Might start considering using rinnosuke on the future, havent touched the game in ages  :V

[jester147]

And now I've reached the end of the road for LoT1. Blazing through everything with Chen and Aya. What lies ahead is insane amounts of grinding that will make me bored and possibly fell asleep for, yeah I did fell asleep sometimes, damn insane grinding. Grinding in 29F is very possible with only a lv270-ish team.

Of note: My skill points is f***ed up. I filled everyone's stats on a certain limit, starting from Reimu to the last character, then restarts with a higher limit. That spread bites me later on, I don't have good stats to survive, but with much grinding from those Liliths, I'm now at a good shape now, maybe.

[DarkAtma]

Unless my memory fails me, i only grinded 27F for the liliths, them Went to 30F and tackled the V3 bosses, They have the best end-game drops, IMO the most worthy to farm are: (Enemy Name,Item Name,Item Effect)

Rinnosuke: Awakened ExoSkeleton,All Stats+150%,All Status Res+15,All Aff+60
Yukari: Inmortal School Badge,HP,ATK,SPD+240%,TP+30,All Status Res+16
Yuuka: Rhododendron Dress,ATK,MAG,MND+200%,SP,SPD+100%,WND,NTR Aff+128,REC+16%,PSN,PAR,SIL Res+18
Alice: Necronomicon,MAG+150%,MND+300%,MYS Aff+300,DTH Res+50
Utsuho: Psycho Gun,ATK+100%,DEF+140%,MAG+180%,MND+220%,PSN,PAR,DTH Res+30
Kaguya (Eientei Team): Egg,HP+80%,SP+100,MAG+350, REC+24%,FIR,CLD,WND,NTR Aff+128,Death,DBF Res+50

And outfitted my whole team with those kind of drops (Too bad i cheesed out the last boss with renko PAR, i am such a coward  :ohdear:)


Now Talking About LoT2,has Anybody tried a warrior MANnosuke? Or he just good as a tank?

[qazmlpok]

Now Talking About LoT2,has Anybody tried a warrior MANnosuke? Or he just good as a tank?

I gave him all of the high boost skills and Warrior just to see his stats.
http://i.imgur.com/349qIpl.png
http://i.imgur.com/ISzBHEZ.png Sakuya, for comparison, also a warrior; using MP, ATK, and SPD boost at lv 5. No gems used.

My takeaway was that if you invest a ton in him... his attack stats will still be worse than most other dedicated attackers, and he'll lack the skills to help him offensively. Sakuya's stats are marginally better, but she also has piercing attack and the amazing extra attack on top of that.

[DarkAtma]

well time to put kaguya or BrokenJesus back, i wished nitori sold those boost manuals,there arent even 12 of each available (for a good price of course, like 200-300k each?)

[Kirin no Sora]

well time to put kaguya or BrokenJesus back, i wished nitori sold those boost manuals,there arent even 12 of each available (for a good price of course, like 200-300k each?)

Yeah, I can relate to that.

Quick questions about NG+: First, is it accessible after beating the regular Ame no Murakumo? Second, if one does do a NG+, do you keep the tomes, gems and equipment that you obtained beforehand? And third, on said NG+, do the treasures that you have collected reappear to be collected again?

I gave him all of the high boost skills and Warrior just to see his stats.
http://i.imgur.com/349qIpl.png
http://i.imgur.com/ISzBHEZ.png Sakuya, for comparison, also a warrior; using MP, ATK, and SPD boost at lv 5. No gems used.

My takeaway was that if you invest a ton in him... his attack stats will still be worse than most other dedicated attackers, and he'll lack the skills to help him offensively. Sakuya's stats are marginally better, but she also has piercing attack and the amazing extra attack on top of that.

Personally, I wished that they gave Rinnosuke the power to use two subclasses to make up for his lack of offensive skills. He does have skills that help him out as a support, but for anything else, subclasses are needed. And some subclasses could work very well together when combined(Warrior + Monk, Healer + Enhancer, Sorcerer + Toxicologist or Hexer, etc.), which would help him out a lot.

I also would wish that they would unlock all of Rinnosuke's High Boosts from the start, so you don't need to give him any books to unlock them. And I wished that he could make all gems, training manuals, and passive boosts from the subclasses count for twice the amount that they would normally give otherwise when used on him. If he had all of that, he could become able to power up all of his boosts and beat anyone with raw stats. provided you get the right stuff for him.

[Axel Ryman]

Yeah, I can relate to that.

Quick questions about NG+: First, is it accessible after beating the regular Ame no Murakumo? Second, if one does do a NG+, do you keep the tomes, gems and equipment that you obtained beforehand? And third, on said NG+, do the treasures that you have collected reappear to be collected again?

IIRC, it's only characters, and that's only if you choose yes when the game asks.

[DarkAtma]

IIRC, it's only characters, and that's only if you choose yes when the game asks.

Didnt someone said NG+ was bugged,making the enhanced bosses not appear due to challenges of "Having all characters" Completing? I think you need to get the NG+ provided here that doesnt come with maribel and renko in order to avoid that

Time for some more questions~!
-Who do you guys think is more tanky? Mokou Or byakuren? (When i am using byakuren i feel like i am cheating sometimes)
-How Is yukari Compared to her LoT1 Self? (Talking about her MND tankyness and Spiriting Away spam)

[jester147]

Time for some more questions~!
-Who do you guys think is more tanky? Mokou Or byakuren? (When i am using byakuren i feel like i am cheating sometimes)
-How Is yukari Compared to her LoT1 Self? (Talking about her MND tankyness and Spiriting Away spam)

1. I think Byakuren's more tanky, especially with her passives. Even better, she can pass on her buffs to others with her spell.
2. Her tankiness is still roughly the same, but the Spiriting Away spam isn't good anymore. It depletes all her MP just for a shorter delay, which is not that worth it. If you're using Spiriting Away, then you have to swap Yukari for someone else, since she's useless without MP.

Update on me: The long way of grinding is so long, I don't even reach the level to grind 30F yet. Still I made an achievement.

Spoiler:

I was able to beat Suwako ver.3 by only using a 290-ish team.