The Worst Gensokyans

[Failure McFailFace]

Marisa?

No. Merlin?

[TresserT]

No. Merlin?

Guys, he clearly means Mima.

[CyberAngel]

Hmm, it's not hatred, but I find I feel disappointment about Reisen. I liked her initially, but I found her not as interesting as she first seemed. It looked like she had some development potential, but it wasn't delivered.

...Well, saying that her character isn't developed AT ALL would be wrong. She does have a backstory that is tied with other people and her debut game's plot. There were some hints she's supposed to have a survivor's guilt... but to tell the truth, I'm glad this one thing WASN'T developed. Actually, it's a curious thing in itself that she doesn't seem to mind that part of her past. But for the present, she has no history that plays part in her life. And I find it dull.

Another thing is that I don't see much of a personality from her. She's a subordinate and... that's it. Again, she's not devoid of her quirks. She tries being bossy and arrogant, but it fails to have any effect. Some may like to watch her failures, but it only annoys me when someone has an attitude but can't back it up. I failed to find any other significant traits in her, aside maybe from being too keen to complain about her job.

Of course, it might be just that it's hard for her to shine when she's surrounded by a goddess of wisdom, a time-manipulating princess and a youkai animal from ancient legends. But she just can't catch my interest anymore. To me, she really is just a useless little bunny, good for nothing but aesthetic appeal.

[Gpop]

Guys, he clearly means Mima.

Nah it's Mamizou, obviously :V

[Clarste]

Minoriko and Minamitsu Murasa are strong contenders as well.

[Reddyne]

I'm way too late for some of this. Rebuttals have bounced back and forth, but I don't want to throw out so much stuff.

Aya stuff

Really, a lot of my beef with Aya boils down to how poorly the fan community has used her. There was a time when everyone was contractually obligated to have her show up in every last ounce of doujin material, regardless of whether she fit or not. Said appearance largely involved intruding into a scene, doing nothing but having a spaz fit while spouting "Ayaya hot scoop," then leaving. I think it's Morino Hon's Yakumo-ke that serves as a great example; a doujin about the Yakumos and Aya gets more screen time than Ran or Yukari. If she's intended to be a main character instead, the doujin will all too frequently involve a race or show of speed by default which she will win without fail. She gets a bit coddled in canon as she's so powerful, but fanon borders on abusive. Her popularity has settled in somewhat and I've seen her around less and less, which has caused my opinion of her to jump to neutral. Doesn't take too much, but for her it was quite a move.

I'd also like to put Remilia out there. See Aya above. Part of it is that her schtick is her charisma and bratty, blue-blooded 10 year olds just don't feel charismatic. Also, regardless of how things go, no one's permitted to be rebellious at the SDM. Everyone loves Ojou-sama unconditionally regardless of circumstances, actions, or character personality. There's a half-dozen doujins out there in which Meiling is portrayed as an awesome force of nature who matures from a raw survival-of-the-fittest monster into a benevolent folk hero for the locals. Without fail, she then gets her teeth kicked in by Remilia for no discernible reason and Meiling's nothing but a clumsy teddy bear with nothing but high praise for Remi after that. It just doesn't mesh with storytelling and feels backwards. The SDM has always been hugely popular, which means stuff with Remi appears a lot. I've seen a few too many doujins in which the status quo is kept at the cost of all the other characters associated with her and it's such a drag.

Byakuren stuff

OH GOODY Paz, Monhan, and the A List cut this down from a 6 lunch hour ordeal to a 3 lunch hour one. Building on what's been stated so far:

Byakuren's EVIL

I swear, after reading all of the material a dozen times over, I'm still puzzled to see what only feels like a deliberately negative interpretation of a character that was made to be the opposite. It's really driven me to take a closer look at the character and the result has been the opposite of people's intentions. As for using/corrupting/manipulating people, not only is Byakuren not inclined to that sort of behavior and doesn't have a reason for doing so, but there's little to show that she'd even be mentally capable of manipulating people in the first place. Byakuren's pretty easy to figure out since she's a heart-on-your-sleeve type. Imperfect? Yup. Naive? Sure. EEEE-VILLL? "No, Byakuren is really a nice person." So sayeth the ZUN. He typically shies away from directly stating a character's personality attributes, leaving it for important and succinct summation of a character while showing instead of telling for everything else. He doesn't futz around at all with Byakuren. A very rare and distinctly positive statement from the man himself which few other characters have received.

As for being flawed, well yeah, but in all of my experiences, there's two schools of thought on the character: Byakuren is a still-very-human individual with lofty ideals that fall short when reality sets in which stops her from being a Mary Sue, or Byakuren is someone who simply pretends to be delusional as she's actually an evil-just-because caricature of a James Bond villain. It always seems to be one or the other, and there's more disconnect between the latter than the former considering what's actually stated regarding the character.

She helps youkai

The idea that Byakuren's philosophy regarding youkai can't work at all comes from a standpoint of a few people whose only means with dealing with youkai of any sort involves extermination and little else, so it wouldn't stick with them in the first place. When all you have is a hammer, a hammer is all you'll use. This is strangely hypocritical as Reimu & Co. hang out with youkai constantly and really haven't exterminated a (main character) youkai since... Anyway, Reimu doesn't even want to resort to such measures if possible and Byakuren provides a means to those ends. If she had zero success with her methods, the Myouren temple would have already went kaput. On the contrary, it's stated that the place is thriving despite some lingering unease between the two different kinds of attendees.

Byakuren provides a means of pacification as opposed to extermination. It's a means of self-realization for any youkai open to the idea. Any youkai that would antagonize humans is banned. She isn't above discipline for any misbehavior, even for stuff as light as Kyouko being disruptively noisy and not just her noisy self. The temple at large has even influenced dangerous youkai like Murasa and that results in making Komachi's (who IS Death and thus not exactly likely to bite it) day a bit wetter than drowning someone else. Byakuren certainly can't keep tabs on everyone, but I've always found it hard to believe she's so permissive of any trouble because there's so much evidence indicating its opposite. Byakuren just letting things slide would also work against her goals as it'll trouble anyone associated with Myouren temple and work against what's established there. Though her teachings might not reach all youkai, the baseline is a net positive. She may not exterminate purely evil youkai, but that's not her style. Forcing such a duty on her crosses a moral line. It's not in the job description because that's someone else's job.

She hurts youkai

Stating that this philosophy is dangerous to youkai just doesn't seem to hold as much water as it could since she's more learned in their needs and behaviors and wouldn't bother with it if it did any damage or even destroyed them before reaching enlightenment. Byakuren confirms that youkai are capable of such an achievement and nobody offers much in the way of a point to the opposite. Delve into it any further and it seems to hit an Occam's Razor. And this is Gensokyo! It exists for creatures like youkai and other oddities and goddeities, but requires the presence of humans. None of them are going to go away anytime soon. Byakuren's ideals and goals fit perfectly here and even at their worst still remain a preferable alternative to the status quo. This is even buffered by spell card rules, discouraging the previous youkai-eat-humans-exterminate-youkai cycle. The rule sticks the two in a room, the Myouren temple gives them a reason not to want to bite each other's heads off.

Vanity

The vanity thing never stuck with me because it only seems to come up in passing and is stated in such a way that it's vain to reverse aging at all. Truly, if anyone would pick an age to stay at, it would be when they were at their prime. It never really felt vain for her to choose her late 20's as opposed to an age at which she'd best be described as losing her grip on her faculties and osteoporitic. Staying in an old form would constantly work against her strengths and you can't finish what you set out to accomplish if you're dead and gone. No other point is ever brought up about any concern for her physical appearance or any interpretation of vanity in any capacity, especially not to the point where one's ego would become involved.

I just want to say she's not perfect

Really I don't think her die-hard fans see her as perfect, but her mindset is benevolent while her faults are things that so many people can relate to. She feels like more of a person than some other characters in the series and still carries the burden of her idealism in an admirable manner, hence her draw.

Miko stuff

Byakuren's inverse, so this becomes low-hanging fruit. Suffice to say, Miko's never getting a truly fair look from me because my only real problem with the human race falls to an extraordinarily thin band of personalities that combine pride, greed, manipulation, self-serving egotism, power, and incompetence. What few people I've ever made enemies with are best described as "basically Miko." She's a disaster in her backstory and learns little if anything from it. I gave her a chance for HM and the selfish might-makes-right attitude made me regret it.

TD is basically an in-joke

Yukari and Mamizou have other similarities, too. They both always seem to have that wry smirk on their face, generally act in their own interest but aren't beyond assisting others when the opportunity arises, and both heavily influence a local human.

[Tiamat]

.Yukari and Mamizou have other similarities, too. They both always seem to have that wry smirk on their face, generally act in their own interest but aren't beyond assisting others when the opportunity arises, and both heavily influence a local human.

I still think you could basically replace Mamizou's sprite (and maybe even storyline role) in HM with Yukari (and keep the same animations) and remove the tanuki tails from everything and there wouldn't be much difference.

[Clarste]

I think Mamizou makes a better Yukari than Yukari does, since she actually has followers instead of just pretending to be queen of the world in her own head.

[Clarste]

The idea that Byakuren's philosophy regarding youkai can't work at all comes from a standpoint of a few people whose only means with dealing with youkai of any sort involves extermination and little else, so it wouldn't stick with them in the first place. When all you have is a hammer, a hammer is all you'll use. This is strangely hypocritical as Reimu & Co. hang out with youkai constantly and really haven't exterminated a (main character) youkai since... Anyway, Reimu doesn't even want to resort to such measures if possible and Byakuren provides a means to those ends. If she had zero success with her methods, the Myouren temple would have already went kaput. On the contrary, it's stated that the place is thriving despite some lingering unease between the two different kinds of attendees.

Byakuren provides a means of pacification as opposed to extermination. It's a means of self-realization for any youkai open to the idea. Any youkai that would antagonize humans is banned. She isn't above discipline for any misbehavior, even for stuff as light as Kyouko being disruptively noisy and not just her noisy self. The temple at large has even influenced dangerous youkai like Murasa and that results in making Komachi's (who IS Death and thus not exactly likely to bite it) day a bit wetter than drowning someone else. Byakuren certainly can't keep tabs on everyone, but I've always found it hard to believe she's so permissive of any trouble because there's so much evidence indicating its opposite. Byakuren just letting things slide would also work against her goals as it'll trouble anyone associated with Myouren temple and work against what's established there. Though her teachings might not reach all youkai, the baseline is a net positive. She may not exterminate purely evil youkai, but that's not her style. Forcing such a duty on her crosses a moral line. It's not in the job description because that's someone else's job.Stating that this philosophy is dangerous to youkai just doesn't seem to hold as much water as it could since she's more learned in their needs and behaviors and wouldn't bother with it if it did any damage or even destroyed them before reaching enlightenment. Byakuren confirms that youkai are capable of such an achievement and nobody offers much in the way of a point to the opposite. Delve into it any further and it seems to hit an Occam's Razor. And this is Gensokyo! It exists for creatures like youkai and other oddities and goddeities, but requires the presence of humans. None of them are going to go away anytime soon. Byakuren's ideals and goals fit perfectly here and even at their worst still remain a preferable alternative to the status quo. This is even buffered by spell card rules, discouraging the previous youkai-eat-humans-exterminate-youkai cycle.

You seem to think the "youkai and humans must be antagonistic" thing comes mostly from Reimu, which is false. It comes from Yukari and Keine and Kanako and Akyuu and pretty much every single other person in the series who says intelligent things, more than half of which are youkai. Youkai don't want to live in a peaceful world, with a very few exceptions. Also, the spellcard rules are the complete opposite of enforcing peace: they encourage harmless conflict. They exist to "make it easy to youkai for cause problems and for humans to resolve them". It youkai and humans didn't need to be in conflict, there would be no need for the spellcard rules. As for her followers, they are totally ignoring her teachings and she's turning a blind eye to that. This is canon. Byakuren also hasn't confirmed anything, unless you think she herself is enlightened? Which both there's no evidence of and is sort of blatantly untrue. The simple fact is that Byakuren is a youkai doing things that benefit herself, personally. Which is I suppose something else that people like to forget: she's not a bridge between humans and youkai or a human who sympathizes with youkai, she's just pure magician youkai, like Patchouli.

I have no problem with other people having different opinions on Byakuren, but you're definitely twisting the facts to suit your own perception of her. I mean, her ideals sound good to us in the progressive modern era, so we want to believe in them. I think that's a dangerous way to see the world though. So you're pretty much the entire reason I wrote that post. Byakuren quite simply isn't a good Buddhist, regardless of whether she's sympathetic or not.

Also, Miko is the opposite of Byakuren in that she'll admit her flaws and change her approach based on the evidence. Controversial statement!

[Tengukami]

Youkai don't want to live in a peaceful world, with a very few exceptions.

Typical speciesist propaganda.

I have no problem with other people having different opinions on Byakuren, but you're definitely twisting the facts to suit your own perception of her. I mean, her ideals sound good to us in the progressive modern era, so we want to believe in them. I think that's a dangerous way to see the world though.

I think everyone in this thread is being selective with "evidence" when it comes to their perceptions of a character. No character is canonically terrible or awesome. That's what should make talking about what we like or dislike about them fun. I mean, seems more fun than drawing conclusions about the dangerous way someone sees the world based on their defense of a Touhou character anyway.

[Clarste]

I think everyone in this thread is being selective with "evidence" when it comes to their perceptions of a character. No character is canonically terrible or awesome. That's what should make talking about what we like or dislike about them fun. I mean, seems more fun than drawing conclusions about the dangerous way someone sees the world based on their defense of a Touhou character anyway.

I don't think she's canonically terrible, I just don't like people saying stuff like "Byakuren proves that youkai can be enlightened" or "any youkai who antagonizes humans in banned" when those are strictly false. The opening post even says that disagreeing through canon is approved of.

That said, I guess I can agree that "dangerous way to see the world" might be construed as a personal attack. I didn't really mean it like that though.

[Sagus]

I think Mamizou makes a better Yukari than Yukari does, since she actually has followers instead of just pretending to be queen of the world in her own head.

Yukari doesn't do that? Literally the only thing I can think of that you might be refering is that chap in WaHH were she says the the zashiki-warashi are youkai spies, which she doesn't even claim control of, and whose conversation with Kasen can be just interpreted as her wanting Kasen to act more youkai like, as you/Tiamat (too lazy to look) said some posts ago.

She never goes around claiming queenship of Gensokyo.
Heck, she even hides her name from what are at least inferred to be her most notable feats, like the drafts of the spellcard rules.

[Clarste]

Yukari doesn't do that? Literally the only thing I can think of that you might be refering is that chap in WaHH were she says the the zashiki-warashi are youkai spies, which she doesn't even claim control of, and whose conversation with Kasen can be just interpreted as her wanting Kasen to act more youkai like, as you/Tiamat (too lazy to look) said some posts ago.

She never goes around claiming queenship of Gensokyo.
Heck, she even hides her name from what are at least inferred to be her most notable feats, like the drafts of the spellcard rules.

Of course she doesn't claim queenship, since it's all in her head. If she actually claimed anything then people could object. Instead she just sort of does things on her own without bothering to explain anything to anyone, like it's her right to do anything she wants. Which I suppose isn't too different from just being selfish, but since she seems to have Gensokyo's best interests in mind it fits better in my head that she considers herself a caretaker of some sort.

My main point though is that she's not a leader of youkai.

[Sagus]

Well since she's basically the reason the place even exists in the first place (and had a great part in shaping it on how it is now), likely knows more about it than anyone else, and is entirely dedicated to it, her considering herself its caretaker certainly isn't a farfetched nor unreasonable claim to make, really.

Yeah, she's not their leader, but she doesn't really seem to want to be, so it just seems like an odd comparison to make. Unless it's to contrast on how overt Mamizou is with her operations.

[Tiamat]

Being a leader of youkai can be really bothersome.  it's better to just manipulate them to do what you want without having to directly take the reigns.

For example, for the Lunar War, Yukari just told them "Hey everyone! If we have the moon's energy, you all can play all day!" and they all followed along (according to Ran to Remilia in SSiB).  She didn't have to take the reigns, be it in her head or outwardly, because she knew how to get them to do what she wanted them to do anyways.  She didn't try to tell them, "Stop trying to expand your territory!", but instead (possibly) instigated the Lunar War to get that effect. The same went for SSiB, where she didn't have to order Remilia to go to the moon (although I can't remember exactly why she sent Ran to ask for their help, IIRC she revealed she fully knew they'd refuse but go to the moon anyways).  She doesn't have to say "I am your leader!  So you will all follow the spell card rules!" when she knows they'll all agree to them regardless because they're sick of the current situation of peace that the vampire incident led to.  She didn't force the underground youkai to stay underground, but instead made them an offer they couldn't refuse (they'd have the entire underground to themselves!)

Even for the times when she possibly tried to take charge, like the great hakurei barrier debate, narrative causality makes it somewhat probable that she did so knowing that the arguments that resulted would distract the youkai from harming humans (which, again by narrative causality, was possibly her intent all along).  Assuming that's what actually happened (IIRC, it's rather vague.  And my memory could be off anyways)

Mamizou really functions the same way, leading others via carrots on sticks and subtlely influencing from the sidelines in order to get them to do what she wants, only intervening directly (like several times in HM) if really needed (Yukari, likewise, only directly intervened in major situations like Eirin, where Yukari in the prologue specifically said "Wow, she must be really powerful to have pulled off something like THAT" or something like that).  Like Yukari though, what she wants is typically something non-selfish (at least, directly) in that it's ultimately for their own good or for the good of all youkai in general.

Regardless, besides Yukari having the title Sage (which we don't know is self-proclaimed or instead something others started calling her over time), I can't really think of many times Yukari in her head thought of herself as leader of youkai.  Most of the narrative we've seen from her perspective is just her philosophizing or ordering Ran around (which is their relationship, after all) rather than thinking of ways to order youkai in general around or... whatever.  If anything, she seems really detached from all the politics going on.  I'm pretty sure her getting Ran to give her a report about the politics like she did in SSiB was just an act as well, although I could be wrong.  Nothing in her inner narrative seems to indicate she gives a crap though when she could instead be philosophizing on why flowers bloom every 60 years or poking Ran on who their true allies are despite the "official" political alliances (or rather, lack of). If anything, the fact that no one officially agreed to help her for her scheme yet she was confident she'd have many people (IE, them) helping her anyways is yet another good example of how Yukari doesn't take the reigns, but instead just sets things up so everyone does what she wants anyways.

(IIRC, the scene from CiLR in question was basically:

Ran:  We have 0 allies. No one agreed to help us.

Yukari:  So we have 9 allies.  Possibly more.

Ran:  Wut?)

Biggest difference between Yukari and Mamizou seems to mainly be the scale,  Mamizou's goals seem to be on bit more personal level (IE, affecting individuals and their individual beliefs on a person-by-person basis) while Yukari operates typically with the grander picture in mind (IE, sweeping changes that can affect the entire culture of Gensokyo, like spell card rules and youkai no longer expanding their territory).  That's a bit up in the air though (it's possible Mamizou has a greater plan too that we aren't privy to, yet or otherwise). Besides that, they generally share the same modus operandi from what I can tell (getting others to do what they want via a subtlely-done carrot and stick approach, or simply knowledge on how people will act when certain situations arise)

[CyberAngel]

To answer an earlier post, as well as to put out my thoughts on the matter in general since a few more things were said about it - in-game dialogues hold no weight as far as threats of being eaten go. Why? Because spellcard rules are used there, and they explicitly forbid killing humans if they lose. Besides, ZUN did say that most pre-battle dialogue is just trash-talk. But even in general, as much as hurting a human resident is quite a big deal. Understandable, since Human Village population isn't infinite. Outsiders, however, are fair game. Most end up being youkai chow, actually. Pretty important thing to keep in mind.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Remilia.

It's not that I hate her, but to be honest, she seems to me to be a very flatly designed character with very little character development. Also, it annoys me slightly that there's no insightful reason to her starting the EoSD incident. I'm not sure if she's supposed to be a dim-witted or a dignified final boss.

[Biakmon]

Besides, ZUN did say that most pre-battle dialogue is just trash-talk.

Could you please post the link?

[Tengukami]

I always just assumed the pre-fight dialogue was trash talk. More so, it's often trash talk that starts as a seemingly normal chat that suddenly turns ugly. It's my favorite thing about the boss fights.

[CyberAngel]

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_3

Instead, Touhou is something like pro wrestling. Spell cards are pro wrestling moves.
However many times pro wrestlers are shouted to "beat to death!", they do not perform unpopular abuses in attacking.
Therefore, the brutality in the jeers that they hurl at each other in matches can be seen as enjoyment.

In case you didn't know, quite a number of wrestling circles put on half-staged fights. All their "storylines" are nothing but a play, in reality they don't have anywhere as much drama as they show to the audience. Here and throughout the rest of that talk, ZUN says that battles and incidents aren't as serious as they might look, and the result doesn't really matter regardless of who wins or loses.

[Reddyne]

Oh boy. Uhm...

I'm not so much as cherry-picking some things and outright denying others as going with what I've been given. Yes, there are certainly limits, but if I were to question what Byakuren says about everything in the manner suggested, I would need to question and doubt so much about the rest of the cast that I'd summarily wind up not knowing much of anything about the lot of them. Byakuren just doesn't show herself as capable of pulling off the same great deceptions that Yukari or Mamizou are capable of, nor does she come off as completely delusional. Therefore, I'm left simply taking things at more or less face value within a certain degree of reason. Byakuren presents her ideas. The others have their doubts but don't know as much on such things. Akyu's observations and (I think) Aya's reporting back up what she says somewhat, also saying that her influence only extends so far. That's what I've been given.

As for human-youkai relations, things are pretty complicated. The human part of the cast feels threatened by youkai to a certain extent and whatnot, but youkai personalities still run much of the same gamut that human ones do if Touhou's cast is anything to consider. The two just operate differently because they're completely different kinds of entities. Their necessary interaction can be negative, but there's so much in the way of non-threatening or downright friendly interactions between parties regardless of what they are that I simply can't take the negative hate-only relationship to heart. A human and a youkai (which covers a lot of characters) can simply converse without any indication of instinctive deep-seated hatred when it's the right ones. Sweeping generalizations are tough.

And yeah, people are stating their impressions and perceptions of characters and can only go over so much. It's really difficult to cover every last possible aspect of them, so it's more or less about things that are coming up as matters come up. It's also really hard to drudge up all of the most absolute facts on memory instead of spending umpteen hours poring over one's every action and every last word uttered by, with, or near a character.

Byakuren, by definition, cannot have reached enlightenment due to her immortality. She is similar to a Bodhisattva but does not meet all of the required grounds for it due to her immortality. Just from a fan perspective and my limited knowledge of Buddhism, really. I think her immortality will be the final thing she lets go of before achieving enlightenment if at all, but that's just strictly wild speculation that's probably well outside of the range that ZUN will ever cover. No one's holding their breath about it ever coming up.

As for Miko, saying you did something is all well and good I suppose, but it just doesn't amount to much of anything. She simply states that she has used religion to suit her own needs. There is no remorse for what she has done or even an attempt to rationalize it. The status quo remains. This tells me that Miko thinks "I am willing to say whatever I please in order to influence people's core values, trust, and deep-seated beliefs for my own personal gain." And she has done so without any regard for the negative consequences it may have on people. She hasn't conveyed that she has changed or learned. Miko needs to be told by two powerful individuals not to inflict the same disaster upon people for her own selfish gain after being imprisoned for more than 1000 years after doing it the first time. She's not averse to using the populace as she pleases, she's simply told they don't need a leader. She has stated her wrongdoings and changes her tune when told that it won't be necessary, but there's no indication she no longer sees people's lives as a tool to use as she sees fit.

The same doesn't really come up with Byakuren and hers is a much different situation, so it can't be touched upon in the same manner. Her backstory shows some character development. It's also stated in passing that she's not all that big on immortality anymore, showing some semblance of change from the more fearful person that she once was, who damaged her own beliefs out of her unease. That's about it.

[Tiamat]

Perfect Memento says (I think it was in Reimu's article) that when it comes to incident resolution, the shrine maiden sometimes loses the battles but just asks for another try until she wins.

In gameplay terms, this would be the equivalent to continuing.  Except presumably Reimu gets the good ending whether she continues or not, I guess.

[Espadas]

A bit late to the party but i think the only characters i dislike a little are Tenshi and especially Cirno.

Tenshi because she is Gensokyo's equivalent of a spoiled rich girl that goes around causing trouble without a care...... not exactly my kind of endearing trait.  :derp:


Cirno..... Cirno really get on my nerves sometimes because of her DELIBERATE ARROGANCE.

If she was a "normal" fairy maybe i could accept her behaviour..... but no, she is explicity stated to be smarter than the average dim-witted fairy.

Arrogance is probably the negative behaviour i hate the most but usually arrogant characters DO LEARN after getting their butt handed to them that they are not so hot, but Cirno no, she keeps saying and believing that she is the strongest even after getting stomped.
That makes you simply an IDIOT in my eyes, and i was inordinately amused by the fact that even after "winning" against Marisa CIRNO is the one with the "defeated artwork".

There are exactly 2 arrogant fictional characters that i do like: Sora from No Game No Life and Gilgamesh from Fate/Stay, and i like them because they are justified in being arrogant, since they truly are inhumanly stronger and curbstomp anyone that oppose them.

[Drake]

That makes you simply an IDIOT in my eyes

Cirno, an idiot? No way!!

i was inordinately amused by the fact that even after "winning" against Marisa CIRNO is the one with the "defeated artwork".

SoPM confirmed the suspicions that Cirno indeed lost the fight by a wide margin.

[CyberAngel]

Hmm, I did say I hate arrogant characters that can't back their attitude, but I actually like Cirno. I guess it's because, unlike Rinnosuke who is easy to take seriously and get disappointed in, that arrogance coming from a fairy (even the strongest one) looks more comical than anything, which makes her endearing in a way. Thus, her actually pulling off something impressive (like holding out against Marisa as long as she did) looks even more awesome.

I guess it's just like Tengu said - the very same things can be reasons for some to like a character and for some to hate the same character.

[Tiamat]

I don't care too much for Cirno, myself, but I like the running gag of Cirno trying to sell shaved ice but no one ever buying from her.  It was originally just "funny" but now it's reached into "hilarious because it keeps happening IN CANON" funny for me.  Also ZUN blatantly using her as a throw-away character in DDC was funny, too.  It's like "CIRNO!  Crappy sprite that ZUN probably spent 10 seconds to draw!  Bam!  No more Cirno!  Let's move on now!"

[Razzi Zadhna]

Pretty much this, too, is always something in the back of my mind where Yukari's concerned. She really is completely self-interested, and has no compunction with tableflipping people's lives just for larfs. What kind of person does this? And, best part of all, everyone's stuck with her, forever apparently. As a character it makes her interesting to watch in action, and you could argue she gives many Gensokyans a purpose in life. But on the other hand, so does Vladimir Putin, so seriously, Yukari is definitely among the worst.

What's interesting, but maybe to be expected, in this thread is how people are describing character traits that I agree with, but have a completely different emotional response to. Like Critz's take on Cirno. I agree that that's Cirno's behavior. I think it's what makes her endearing. But at the same time, stuff like Yukari's gleeful sociopathy is pretty indisputably terrible.

Yukari is also not human.

A lot of people in this thread are forgetting that the vast majority of characters in this series aren't human. They look human but deep down inside their are inhuman beasts who work by completely different rules mentally. Yukari is old as hell and has one of the most broken powers in Gensokyo. She's so powerful her servant has a servant. Expecting such a being to work with or even comprehend our morality is a haughty order.

I kind of dislike Sakuya and Reisen, not so much for their characters (although I don't think their characters are especially interesting, particularly compared to everyone around them in their games) as for their designs. They keep getting in the way whenever I have to explain Touhou to someone who doesn't know it. "Yes, it's Japanese and the cast is all women, but don't worry, it's not sexualized or fetishy at all... Except for the two characters in the weird fetish uniforms, one of which also has goddamn bunny ears. Oops."

Dude...I....what.

Yes, the game series with:

-TWO sadistic vampire lolis who are also sisters
-A bevy of kemonomimi (Chen, Orin, Momiji, Tokiko, Reisen, Tewi, Ran...)
-An all-female cast which ranges from lolis (Cirno, Rumia, Wriggle...) to teen girls (Nazrin, Marisa, Reimu, Sanae, Youmu, Koishi, Satori, Orin...) to young adult women (Aya, Shou, Mokou...) to mature women who tend to have huge-ass boobs (Byakuren, Yukari, Yuyuko, Yuuka, Eirin, Yuugi, Ran...)
-ONE dude who is pretty much utterly irrelevant
-An official game where a character's breasts jiggle in their normal standing pose (HM, with Byakuren)

Isn't fetishy. YUP.

If ZUN drew in a normal manga/anime style you'd be calling it generic yuribait with sexualized moe-moe-kyun girls. Did you know that when asked which 2hu had the largest boobs, ZUN actually answered (it's Yuugi)?

[Romantique Tp]

Check out these humongous meat balls

[Razzi Zadhna]

Do I need to bring up that picture Alphes drew of Yuugi to advertise one of the games where her breasts are about to fall out of her kimono 

Yukari still fits the "mature woman" trope regardless.

(Also, "one tiny part of your argument was kinda wrong THE ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS THUS WRONG" is pretty disingenuous)

[Drake]

i'm not even sure how to respond to how wacky that list is