Author Topic: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)  (Read 3456 times)

Helepolis

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Warning: large read ahead

A small history to inform you what this is about (I'll keep it short): I've been working for ages on my own danmakufu game and hit a point where I have to come up with stage patterns (enemy and bullets). Being a non-serious shmup player I find this a major unknown field. I only play normal 1cc then ditch a Touhou release. The only serious lunatic attempt I did was Imperishable Night when the year was counting 2008. So back then the latest game was probably Subterranean Animism.

Goal
I'm looking for the groove to design an enjoyable stage in both enemies and bullet patterns and therefore seeking facts, opinions, ideas and suggestions from casual players, addicted players, score runners, no-bombers, perfect clearers, hardcore players, basically any Touhou player's opinion and suggestion is welcome. I don't desire elitism and thus I don't discriminate the various types of players. I'll be reading them all seriously and eliciting as much as information to help me find that groove to design a nice stage. Because my game will contain difficulty modes, it is only fair to listen to all.

Express your opinion / fact or own analysis on how you think a proper and enjoyable stage should be/feel. Any specific pointing  information for example: "Helepolis, you should study SA stage 3 and pay attention to x-y-z" or similar advice is highly appreciated as that gives me material to study (watching replays, playing stage etc).

What I did so far? I've been studying / watching ZUN's games on particular enemy appearance and how the stage flows in general before hitting a midboss and eventually the boss. (This was done on easy-mode as the number of enemies are not variable as far as I noticed based on difficulty). For the higher difficulty runs like hard/lunatic I've studied people's play through on youtube. But this only present me ZUN-data and I am logically curious about opinions and enjoyability.

Note: Kindly requesting people to stay civil. I don't mind people commenting on other people's post to agree/disagree but don't make it dwell down into hating/bashing because we're not here to write reviews. This thread could automatically be useful for any danmakufu or shmup designer so this isn't just intended for me.

If you claim something is suck/bad/horrible, then at least provide constructive criticism and some elaboration. One liners "Th X sucks, don't copy/learn/bother" are useless for us all and will be heavily frowned upon.

In advance thanks for any help and time taken. Cheers.

Edit
Oh as an highlight to inform you that this thread is quite serious business for me to read: My intention is on finishing this game before January (for beta testing purposes etc), burning it on CD including artwork and releasing it at Reitaisai 2015 personally along with Warugaki (for free or maybe for a very small fee if legally possible). As you can see, the ambition level is quite high and it is a realistic target goal as I am patiently waiting for Reitaisai 2015 announcement dates.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:50:23 AM by Helepolis »

Shimatora

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Re: Seeking for the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 10:16:37 AM »
I'll pick apart my opinions on TD for this, considering it's my "main game." I'm a serious Easy/Normal score runner and casual Hard/Lunatic survival player, so I'll do my best to offer opinions on both of these.

First I'd like to say (and you may already know this) that your final product will be shaped heavily by the scoring. That is, if you plan to employ a deep and intricate scoring system that leaves a lot of room for experimentation rather than "survive to score", where NMNB is the way to score high. In the case of the latter, you have much more freedom to make the game flow however you want it to. The former seems a little bit more tricky to get right, at least as far as I see it. Take, for instance, Ten Desires. The game's stage scoring revolves around killing enemies in quick succession as soon after they come on screen as possible. After a certain amount of chaining, you begin to gain gray spirits (which are worth as much as your current PIV or point item value as well as increasing your trance meter substantially) on top of blue ones (which increase PIV). As such, ZUN has crafted the stages in a way that allows the player to abuse the system as much as possible. There's little use in having the mechanics listed above if the enemies do not appear in an abusable order. If, say, the enemies appeared far left, then far right a split second later, and kept alternating this pattern, I doubt you would even gain gray spirits as the time taken between killing each enemy is far too large. You get the idea. What you actually find is that enemies are often placed in two groups: one wave will come from the left, while another set of enemies from the right. These sets of enemies come into the stage in such a way that they can be chained and quickly killed off in order to gain the spirits they drop. More often than not, there are multiple ways of destroying the enemies whether it be as simple as choosing one wave to kill of first that you deem to be worth more for PIV or points in general, leaving the second wave and missing out on the spirits, only killing them once you've destroyed the other wave. (This is one hell of a ramble and looking back on it may not make too much sense, I'd suggest taking a look at an Easy scorerun to see what I mean about choosing which enemies to kill. If you do need more clarification about this part, just ask.)

As mentioned, the boss patterns are likely to morph with your scoring system too. In TD, a lot of the boss patterns are "shotgun-able." By shotgunning is staying directly underneath the boss making sure all of your shot hits them. This is a big thing in TD as bosses also spawn spirits in a similar way to stage enemies, the closer in proximity you are to the boss (usually maxes at just within the boss health circle) and how much damage you are doing to the boss dictates how many spirits will spawn, as far as my understanding leads me to know. Obviously the more the better, if you're scoring! ZUN specifically leaves spaces in danmaku and patterns in general for the player to milk spirits as much as is humanly possible, with it obviously being far easier on Easy mode.

Resources are also a huge aspect of TD, as they offer new and different ways of gaining spirit where you normally may not be able to. There are two fairly obvious places throughout the game you can do this - in sections with a lot of enemies you cannot kill quick enough (see Stage 4 TD) or during boss attacks that are too hard or straight up impossible to shotgun. This also expands a bit on the depth I brushed on earlier, leaving room for experimentation on where to bomb, where to suicide, where to spend trance - should it be on gaining extra resource pieces (x2 gained during trance) or to gain PIV (blue spirits go from 10 PIV to 100 PIV in trance), should I spend my resources during bosses or stages, which spellcards/attacks should I bomb/trance/suicide - you get the idea. ZUN has purposefully given the player many, many choices to pick from that may even evolve depending on how the run is going, if you miss a bomb or die accidentally your route is severely thrown off. He has also placed very obvious cash-in areas such as Stage 4 and 6 pre-boss.

Enough of the meta-score running stuff for now though, hopefully it offers an insight into my own mind regarding scoring and what makes TD fun for me. Let's get into some stuff I actually don't like about TD.

Stages 1 through to 3 are dull. It makes sense that ZUN worked his way up in enemy spawning complexity throughout the game but the first few stages truly are downright boring. This is only about the Stages however, boss fights are fine.

I do not like the invincibility during trance. It's 10 seconds of positioning myself correctly and that is it. During stages it's a bit more fun as I can focus on killing enemies as quick as possible, but during bosses you position yourself on top of them and wait for them to move half the time. It really takes away from the patterns being fun, you can go through the entire game every single time you play not having to bother dodging a certain card because you're "scoring."  I much prefer Extra scoring, as the spellcard bonus is actually enough to warrant not trancing through them, as well as the amount of spirits being gain reduced significantly if you do. Spellcards in extra are worth 14m and up if I remember correctly, normal game has a couple of million at most. (not that I've ever checked the main game's spellcard bonus because it is THAT insignificant.)

These are the only two large issues I had with TD that I can even remember, I swear I had more... I blame not playing for a little bit. I'll probably post more as I think of things.

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 11:33:24 AM »
Some thoughts on a more abstract level, might write more later.

In general, how fun a shooting game is depends solely in how interesting/fun things it makes you do. Thus a good stage design is something that forces the player to do interesting things. Some games do this by scoring rules that can make otherwise dull stages engaging, or you can just make survival complicated and not care that much about the scoring. In any case, it's best to think what one would need to do to play the game optimally and make sure it won't be boring. Boring things would include extended periods of doing nothing, sitting in easy safespots, mindlessly tapping past 100% aimed bullets for a long time, etc.

The PoC mechanic in Touhou is a good example of a simple idea that can make otherwise dull parts a lot more interesting to play well. You might be able to pass some part simply by streaming in the bottom, but ideally you'll be looking for opportunities to go to the top of the screen and get those high-value items. This only serves people who acknowledge the score though.

Speaking of scoring systems, I don't think a system can be judged alone as good or bad. It all depends on how well it works in connection with the stage design. A good system provides the player some rules that will make the optimal ways to play the stages more interesting than a simple approach of getting by, no matter how much resources spent, would be. A bad scoring system is something that ends up rewarding boring ways to do things (see the comments of 10D boss trance above), or something that feels disconnected from the stage design. Of course, if your scoring system is complex, it may be difficult to predict what the optimal way to play the game will end up being like.
"First of all, for those who've cleared the game, please try playing for more points." - ZUN

Yookie

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 03:17:05 PM »
An important aspect for stages is also the length. In the main games the length always feels right to me, with some longer (PCB Stage 4)
some shorter (LLS Stage 6 is extremely short but maybe it just feels like it).
If a stage drags out too long it inevitably gets repetitive and even though that can be used to get a point across (a really long way to travel or aimlessly flying around for example) it's easy to overdo it.
(Mystical Powerplant did this. When I was on Stage 3 it felt like I should be on stage 5 already from the time spent.) Please don't stretch stages too long.

It can also be a nice touch to have a "gimmick" that runs through all the stages, getting more apparent the further you go.

In terms of gameplay in stages I noticed that Stage 4 of the windows titles always heavily focuses on streaming (with UFO and TD being the exception). Make of that what you will. :V


Anyway,
I like playing around with the PoC, taking the risks and such so I never was that big a fan of stages that involve a lot of complete randomness as that tends to force you into a certain area of the screen.
It's nice to be able to avoid some danmaku entirely by shooting down enemies quickly enough but it's always kinda sad to do so too much (MoF Stage 3 with MarisaC comes to mind.).
Static patterns are neat in that they can be used to express the mood of the stage or help with the setting. It's something that's nice to look at.
The only thing that always really bothered me are enemies that try to run into you or spawn in awkward positions (TD had its fair share of that.). If I get hit I want it to be danmaku and not some fairy. :V

gtbot

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 05:03:18 PM »
If I get hit I want it to be danmaku and not some fairy. :V

What are your thoughts on having enemies that intentionally try to ram you? As in, they fire very little or no bullets, but they still try to ram you in some way? Nothing like just flying straight at the player, but moving around the stage before attempting to try to hit the player (note: it's still possible to dodge them, they won't directly into the player, just the general direction).

Instead of having such enemies, would it be better to just have them be bullets instead? An example of what I mean are enemies from the Galaga Legions game.

Yookie

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 05:21:47 PM »
The following is something highly subjective.

I'm perfectly fine with getting hit by enemies in a "normal" shooter like gradius, that's all fine and good since they are (aside from walls) their main way of killing you.

If an enemy is placed somewhere and has a path with the intention of targetting the player then that is what it is and I'll play around it. An example for that are the YinYang Orbs in DDC Stage 5.
They spawn, scatter their danmaku and if they aren't destroyed they will home in on you. That's okay to me, because that's their purpose.

I just get annoyed at myself for running into enemies that have a fixed pattern and move across the screen for some inexplicable reason. Projectiles do exactly the same thing and I can deal with it.
I mean, I know that in TD stage 1 there are going to be spirits spawning at the top right and left, in stage 5 in circles around you, etc. but that doesn't stop me from running into them.
Since that is not something that's frequently happening and also is easily prevented by simply memorizing where they are going to spawn/not fly around in weird areas/shooting at them
it is a different matter than getting hit by a projectile for me.
Ultimately it is, given it has a hitbox, not too different from a projectile aside from being able to be shot down.

I guess the whole thing is about what the purpose of an object in these games is in my eyes.
To me an enemy, be it whatever it wants to be, is first and foremost a source of projectiles. I don't think of the enemy itself as the danger unless that's one of its primary functions.
A fairy randomly flying around does not tell me that it's a threat even though I know that running into it will kill me.
My mindset shouldn't be like that after playing so much TD to be honest. :V

While we're on the topic: I really like the sawblades in LLS Stage 4 that approach from behind. That's a concept with potential.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 05:31:53 PM by Yookie »

Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 06:20:36 PM »
One thing that's probably obvious anyway: Repetition is almost always a bad thing. People will play a shooting game multiple times over and over, so there's no need to repeat a part within the game. That will just make the repetition feel excessive.
"First of all, for those who've cleared the game, please try playing for more points." - ZUN

Helepolis

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 07:19:03 AM »
Regarding scoring, honestly I don't have any idea yet on how to approach this. I had some random things in mind but not sure how feasible or effective they are going to be. The trance system or some sort of invincibility like Th13 is something I am not going to implement. I'm going to stick loyal to the fact that you only have bombs at your disposal to gain invincibility for brief period of time (which is standard bombing). I understand that trance mode is profitable as all the spirits home in at you and they gain double their values or something.

Shima, you mentioned enemies in th13 stage 1 up to 3 are dull/boring in sequences? Are there other people sharing this opinion, if so then that is something for me to study and compare to other games or stages. Perhaps people can express which stage they found enjoyable in terms of enemy appearance and sequences. Erppo mentions that the player should be kept entertained by making him/her do continuous movement which requires more than just tapping to evade. (Erppo got some example stages in original touhou games?)

As mentioned, stage length is something that I have been analysing. A few stage 1 and stage 4 rough data from original games based on regular runs (thus normal playthrough and not milking/delaying).
- EoSD Stage 1 > 1:30 including midboss. Stage 4 > 3:00 including midboss.
- PCB Stage 1 > 1:15. Stage 4 > 4:00 including midboss.
- IN Stage 1 > 1:15. Stage 4 > 1:30 first part + 0:45 second part, total of 2:15. (Marisa/Reimu runs which results in a small stage run. The only game to have a stage run in an actual boss fight AFAIK).
- SA Stage 1 > 1:40  including midboss. Stage 4 > 2:20 including midboss.
- UFO Stage 1 > 1:30 including midboss. Stage 4 > 2:25 including fixed midboss (stage length cannot extend due slowly killing it, Nue has no lifebar)
- 10D Stage 1 > 1:30 including midboss. Stage 4 > 2:20 including midboss.
- DDC Stage 1 > 1:45 including midboss. Stage 4 > 2:55 including midboss.

We can clearly see that ZUN has been heavily sticking < 2min for stage 1 and stage 4 (usually a do or die stage) being between 2:00 and 3:00. PCB being the major exception here with a huge 4:00 as was mentioned. The trend of a midboss is clearly present as such is ZUN style I guess? Also a lot of the time the stage run is heavily synced to the music. Such a when Nue is appearing in UFO stage 4, the music takes a calm pace and when she leaves it hits full climax including enemies + bullets.

Oh, forgot to ask in my initial post also: How do people feel about the difficulty levels in the various touhou games? From Easy mode up to Lunatic.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 07:26:39 AM by Helepolis »

Yookie

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 08:06:00 AM »
Shima, you mentioned enemies in th13 stage 1 up to 3 are dull/boring in sequences? Are there other people sharing this opinion, if so then that is something for me to study and compare to other games or stages.

The problem lies within TD's scoring system. As was already mentioned grey spirits appear when quickly killing enemies in sequence as they appear and the game is set up to allow that.
In earlier stages this results in taking out enemies before they can even do much.

On top of that all of the enemies in the first 3 stages have fixed paths, spawn points and next to no random bullet patterns:
Stage 1 has slight randomness with some bullet rings (granted, it's "just stage 1")
Stage 2 has one part near the beginning
Stage 3 features exploding spirits that release random projectiles, which are rather negligible even on Lunatic and has a short part after the mid-boss.

Everything else is either static, streamed or gets shot down before it spawns a relevant amount of bullets.
This results in one static route that you do every time. At least that's what happened with my runs.

But I must also say that I only really noticed this after checking now. The problem is visible to me but I never was bothered by it all that much mostly because I'm not that experienced a player and playing on the higher difficulties managed to keep me on my toes enough as is.
I can see it being rather dull in scoring runs on lower difficulties.


How do people feel about the difficulty levels in the various touhou games? From Easy mode up to Lunatic.

The jumps in difficulty have become noticeably higher after IN. EoSD, PCB and IN mostly just increased the bullet count and IN slowly started introducing entirely different versions of Spellcards on Hard and Lunatic (Marisa's Nondirectional Laser comes to mind). That happens more often in the later games. It would've been very possible for example to just make the one circle in Yamame's last Spellcard in SA more dense but instead she gets additional ones.
Changing Spellcards at their core is a nice concept but shouldn't be overused. It should still feel like you're playing the same game.
Imho it's a good thing to have an easier normal mode (something which many people complained about with TD) but have a sharper increase in difficulty between modes.

Some games have an inherent added difficulty at higher difficulties due to their scoring system (SA which rewards good players with more lives so if you keep getting hit you don't even get anything back, UFO where it gets hard to catch the UFOs which again results in less lives, TD makes it harder to collect spirits and in DDC it gets riskier to reach the PoC repeatedly). This one I'm not sure how to feel about. I guess it's not really avoidable.

Stages themselves don't really change all that much in their concept over the difficulties. At the core they stay the same but have more projectiles.
Unless the scoring/life-gaining system ties into that it really isn't all that big a deal.
Of course in most Touhou games getting to the PoC or just not staying at the bottom is vital for getting resources - Be it via points, point items or a gimmick, SA is the only exception here - but the ones that make using a gimmick more difficult are usually more memorable. I can't say that I noticed that much of a difference in playing EoSD's stages on Normal, Hard or Lunatic since you kind of acclimate yourself to the difficulty but for DDC I can definitely say that I had to think more about when to get that point bonus and when to let it slide or which spirits in TD I can consistently collect safely.

Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 12:41:52 PM »
Erppo mentions that the player should be kept entertained by making him/her do continuous movement which requires more than just tapping to evade. (Erppo got some example stages in original touhou games?)

A common theme in Touhou stages is to combine a stream of player-aimed bullets with a static pattern that you have to watch out for while doing the streaming. Some examples would be PCB st5 and IN st3. Granted, sometimes the second layer is missing entirely and several stage sections can be done simply by slow tapping. Large parts of MoF st3 come to mind. The scoring system comes to the rescue here though: the tapping in the bottom -method is not encouraged since besides not getting hit, you also want to PoC the items dropped for maximum value and mind your faith counter. The tapping method accomplishes neither of these goals. A player completely ignoring score might still end up using it though, and thus might find the stage really dull from their perspective.
"First of all, for those who've cleared the game, please try playing for more points." - ZUN

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2014, 05:07:16 AM »
Relatedly, when we were talking about yesterday about mechanics that make players want to use them, I mentioned PoC as an example. It wasn't a very strong example, since many players do go out of their way to PoC even when not scoring, but this connects to what Erppo is saying about ignoring score and just tapping through a stage. It's more important that your stage design makes this nontrivial, but if you can't avoid it, your mechanics also should at least try to get the player interested in them enough that they don't want to just tap along the bottom.

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CyberAngel

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Re: Seeking the groove (analysing / requesting opinions in stage design)
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2014, 10:27:01 AM »
One thing about repetition is that it may be not so bad if you change a part of the pattern each time. Off the top of my head, MoF stage 5 has a good example in segments with pairs of big fairies. The small fairies shoot differently in both instances, and that changes the way you approach those parts, even if they look a bit similar. Of course, it may be hard to come up with a change that may spice the repeat enough to keep it interesting, so it's probably better to avoid repetition if you can help it. Unless you literally come up with a pattern and can't choose between two ways a certain element should be done because both are interesting and make it noticeably different.