Author Topic: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons  (Read 128176 times)

Mr. Sacchi

  • All shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.
  • Not postponed. Not in the end. Not for long.
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #420 on: September 19, 2014, 10:42:59 AM »
On the other hand, Gonia + Cell as leaders might be one hell of a thing, unconditional 8,75x atk and x2,5 rcv is not to be trifled with.

Though I don't remember many good green dragons not called Gonia so maybe not.

Thaws

  • _m廿廿m_
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #421 on: September 19, 2014, 10:44:59 AM »
Honestly though, Devilstet at the end adds nothing to green devils.
With the way she works now, I'd simply make my whole team green. (Now I have use for my two Sasukes) and I don't see how pairing with cell is better than another bastet (G/L or G/D) because of infinite spreadcat
There's no good green devil enhancers (yet) anyways.
She also doesn't make a good sub for green devils now, because her green row is gone.

Cell on the other hand, is probably heralding a series of free 3.5x type teams, which is very worrying when stuff like chinese gods are still at 3.5x.....

Chaore

  • Kai Ni Recipient Many Years Late
  • *
  • You Finally Did It, Kadokawa.
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #422 on: September 19, 2014, 10:50:48 AM »
On the other hand, Gonia + Cell as leaders might be one hell of a thing, unconditional 8,75x atk and x2,5 rcv is not to be trifled with.

Though I don't remember many good green dragons not called Gonia so maybe not.

I completely forgot cell was a dragon for a moment.

Maybe? I'd have to check later on that end.

His active's really not that bad, though. We can't discount that either.

It's okay. He can use it for shenanigans with Beorc built in, which is fucking great actually.

Like actually fuck yeah I'm getting my Beorc+enhance strats anyway! Hell yeah!

Honestly though, Devilstet at the end adds nothing to green devils.
With the way she works now, I'd simply make my whole team green. (Now I have use for my two Sasukes) and I don't see how pairing with cell is better than another bastet (G/L or G/D) because of infinite spreadcat
There's no good green devil enhancers (yet) anyways.
She also doesn't make a good sub for green devils now, because her green row is gone.

Cell on the other hand, is probably heralding a series of free 3.5x type teams, which is very worrying when stuff like chinese gods are still at 3.5x.....

This is basically the biggest fucking problem I have with this. YamaP wanted to try and push Green Devils forward a bit, and instead of being patient EVERYONE FLIPPED THE FUCK OUT and now we basically got nowhere instead. This was a -snap- reaction to a decision on the same old point of 'fucking wait and see what they come out with next' and everyone blew the fuck up because it was bastet.

I can't imagine YamaP is at all pleased with that, tbh.

Zerviscos

  • Infinite Bread Chewing Powers! Activate!
  • *
  • Om nom nom nom nom nom*
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #423 on: September 19, 2014, 10:55:08 AM »
Extreme Hera Rush is actually happening. Like hell I can do that. I haven't even gotten to Starlight Sanctuary.



Twitter | Steam | Battle.net[Zerviscos#1833]

trancehime

  • 不聖女
  • *
  • 2017年~ 茨心R (希望)
    • himegimi
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #424 on: September 19, 2014, 11:00:17 AM »
On the other hand, Gonia + Cell as leaders might be one hell of a thing, unconditional 8,75x atk and x2,5 rcv is not to be trifled with.

Though I don't remember many good green dragons not called Gonia so maybe not.

Bronze Saint, Dragon Shiryu is very good as a Dragon sub because of his 2x Dragon enhance active, which is one of the best active Dragon enhancers in the game. He also has 1 green row.

Except NA doesn't have Saint Seiya collab yet


元素召唤 || pad & msl news translator robit
twitter xx motk resident whale

Chaore

  • Kai Ni Recipient Many Years Late
  • *
  • You Finally Did It, Kadokawa.
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #425 on: September 19, 2014, 11:06:36 AM »
Bronze Saint, Dragon Shiryu is very good as a Dragon sub because of his 2x Dragon enhance active, which is one of the best active Dragon enhancers in the game. He also has 1 green row.

Except NA doesn't have Saint Seiya collab yet

We don't have DBZ either!

We're rather unlikely to get both, too!

Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #426 on: September 19, 2014, 11:18:50 AM »
I DID IT

Five fucking failures over many weeks/a few months.

It has finally culminated in this.

Zero fucking stones. Non-IAP represent.



also fuck you zeus I didn't need you after all

Espadas

  • *
  • You're gonna have a bad time
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #427 on: September 19, 2014, 11:33:33 AM »
Stupid connection going out right before trying to post a long-winded answer  :X

Short version: of course i'm a new player, never pretended to be an expert. And i totally agree that they did this just because Bastet is fanboy-bait.
I just noticed the early comments implying that the original Moon Bastet was practically useless while the new one is very strong but not Godlike (no pun intended). And i didn't know that PAD wasn't doing good (hell, the very reason i got curious about it - apart from Kogasa-san - was that every freaking time i encountered it on the net it was like "omgwtf PAD is making outrageous levels of money and is already a Japan cult!1!1!")

So i saw it as "very succesful company try to appease the enraged fanbase after nearly screwing over their idol, without going overboard".
As you pointed out i know nothing of high-end balance, so i didn't know they apparently DID went overboard. And that i totally agree is a stupid move.

Please don't take my comments like i'm trying to be a pro, i'm just a very new casual player that is still discovering the new shiny toy so my opinions will be based on my limited experience :V

trancehime

  • 不聖女
  • *
  • 2017年~ 茨心R (希望)
    • himegimi
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #428 on: September 19, 2014, 11:43:47 AM »
So guess what I got today?

Yeah... you guessed it...



 8)

元素召唤 || pad & msl news translator robit
twitter xx motk resident whale

commandercool

  • alter cool
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #429 on: September 19, 2014, 12:35:39 PM »
I know this is probably still basically a ridiculous question, and in most contexts I would look at it as laughable, but given the particular circumstances surrounding PAD, how important is balance? Obviously it's preferable to have a correctly balanced game than an incorrectly balanced one, but given that there is no PVP element in PAD and the whalings of some players don't really directly effect anyone else at all, does balance matter that much? If some game elements are just better than others it doesn't really cross over from the haves to the have-nots in an easy to see way, at least from what I can tell.

The power creep in dungeons seems like the biggest factor here to me, and for the most part it doesn't seem like high-end content is balanced around the absolute most powerful things you can do in the game, but more around trends and the rough power level of available monsters overall. What do you think? Is that off-base? Does a sudden leap in power in one corner of the endgame (combo leaders) have effects that extend to anyone beyond people using combo leaders? Does it even go that far, or does it only effect people using Bastet? It's not like existing combo leaders just got nerfed, even if they are now significantly weaker than another existing option.

Do we expect that this change will result in dungeons that are difficult enough that the others stop being viable, and if so, would those dungeons not have been as difficult without the Bastet change? I don't have a great grasp on absolute endgame content or a nuanced understanding of balance changes across the history of the game, so this is hard for me to piece together, but as games go individual specific balance issues in PAD kind of seem like they... Don't matter that much, honestly.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #430 on: September 19, 2014, 12:45:08 PM »
:balance issues:

Honestly I feel sort of sameish, though I think the outrage is more directed how some people whining literally forced the change, rather than the result of the change itself.

I expect to still see Kushinada suggestions a lot simply because that shield active saves asses hundreds of times all over the world on a daily basis. Damage doesn't matter if you die next turn and they have way too much health. Two turns worth of delay on double Okuninushi sounds pretty useful too.

That said, some people come up with crazy ways to clear "impossible" or "excruciatingly hard" content that doesn't involve the use of MLG top-tier stuff, so I just really try not to let it matter to me.

trancehime

  • 不聖女
  • *
  • 2017年~ 茨心R (希望)
    • himegimi
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #431 on: September 19, 2014, 12:47:19 PM »
I know this is probably still basically a ridiculous question, and in most contexts I would look at it as laughable, but given the particular circumstances surrounding PAD, how important is balance? Obviously it's preferable to have a correctly balanced game than an incorrectly balanced one, but given that there is no PVP element in PAD and the whalings of some players don't really directly effect anyone else at all, does balance matter that much? If some game elements are just better than others it doesn't really cross over from the haves to the have-nots in an easy to see way, at least from what I can tell.

Except they will introduce convoluted PvP in the form of Pazudora Challenge.

元素召唤 || pad & msl news translator robit
twitter xx motk resident whale

Mr. Sacchi

  • All shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.
  • Not postponed. Not in the end. Not for long.
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #432 on: September 19, 2014, 01:16:34 PM »
Do we expect that this change will result in dungeons that are difficult enough that the others stop being viable, and if so, would those dungeons not have been as difficult without the Bastet change? I don't have a great grasp on absolute endgame content or a nuanced understanding of balance changes across the history of the game, so this is hard for me to piece together, but as games go individual specific balance issues in PAD kind of seem like they... Don't matter that much, honestly.

Think about it like this: Most of PaD's money comes from Whales (because of course).

So to keep making more money, they need to cater specifically to the whales.

Now, if they make mosnters which are ridiculously powerful and a whale (inevitably) gets it and flaunts around just how good the monster is, then every whale is going to want it, obviously enough, that is going to make ridiculous amounts of money for the company.

But now the monster is not only ridiculously powerful but also extremely popular among the whales, which means that what was previously really challenging becomes extremely easy, if the company decides to keep going this way - making reasonable dungeons which anyone can tackle - then the whales with that ridiculously powerful monster end up losing interest in the game altogether because "there's no challenge anymore", and in Gungho's case, they're doing this with not only one monster, but several, so simply "don't use that monster" isn't really an option.

So GungHo either makes a dungeons where having that monster or something equally as powerful is an absolute necessity (which brings challenge again to the whales, but pretty much locks that content out of anyone who doesn't have the required monsters) or end up losing a chunk of their revenue due to their whales just...leaving after a while.

That's how I see it anyway, I may be wrong altogether though.

(There was a video here, I just noticed that it wasn't as relevant as I thought.)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 01:20:18 PM by Silver Sacchi »

Zerviscos

  • Infinite Bread Chewing Powers! Activate!
  • *
  • Om nom nom nom nom nom*
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #433 on: September 19, 2014, 01:44:57 PM »
I know this is probably still basically a ridiculous question, and in most contexts I would look at it as laughable, but given the particular circumstances surrounding PAD, how important is balance? Obviously it's preferable to have a correctly balanced game than an incorrectly balanced one, but given that there is no PVP element in PAD and the whalings of some players don't really directly effect anyone else at all, does balance matter that much? If some game elements are just better than others it doesn't really cross over from the haves to the have-nots in an easy to see way, at least from what I can tell.

The power creep in dungeons seems like the biggest factor here to me, and for the most part it doesn't seem like high-end content is balanced around the absolute most powerful things you can do in the game, but more around trends and the rough power level of available monsters overall. What do you think? Is that off-base? Does a sudden leap in power in one corner of the endgame (combo leaders) have effects that extend to anyone beyond people using combo leaders? Does it even go that far, or does it only effect people using Bastet? It's not like existing combo leaders just got nerfed, even if they are now significantly weaker than another existing option.

Do we expect that this change will result in dungeons that are difficult enough that the others stop being viable, and if so, would those dungeons not have been as difficult without the Bastet change? I don't have a great grasp on absolute endgame content or a nuanced understanding of balance changes across the history of the game, so this is hard for me to piece together, but as games go individual specific balance issues in PAD kind of seem like they... Don't matter that much, honestly.
TBH, it's not really about balance issues, rather it's about money. In fact, the concept of balance doesn't really apply here.

IMO it's about the challenge. Think about this, if people always have an insanely strong card, wouldn't it already be boring for them? You should've noticed, if we started playing around a year ago, and with our current PaD status(rank, cards, etc.), we would already be considered in the late-game. Though we didn't played back then, and the late game back then, is actually the mid-game now. Some will say it's still the late-game, and say the latter dungeons are super late-game.

The point is, if they already surpassed the so-called "late game" long ago, it wouldn't be surprising some players will go on hiatus; worst case scenario: quit(hard to think that way though). So they go make an insanely good card, and make harder dungeons. It's up to the other players who doesn't have the viable cards to do the dungeon, whether they want to do it or not. It's not like it affected them directly, as no actual change was brought to the game overall, rather than just being another "added content", everything that was before it, remains the same.

Like Sacchi said, it's mostly about money. The real target is the IAP players. Non-IAPs supports the community, while the IAPs are the ones responsible for bringing food to GungHo's table.

Edit: Misspelled game. LOL



Twitter | Steam | Battle.net[Zerviscos#1833]

Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #434 on: September 19, 2014, 01:51:06 PM »
welcome to the cool x4.5 kids club bastet BV


Quote
Mr. Satan
Balanced / Dragon
Active: Delay enemies for 2 turns & deal 1x ATK against 1 enemy
what a fucking legend
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 01:57:47 PM by Suikama »

trancehime

  • 不聖女
  • *
  • 2017年~ 茨心R (希望)
    • himegimi
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #435 on: September 19, 2014, 02:11:35 PM »
Like Sacchi said, it's mostly about money. The real target is the IAP players. Non-IAPs supports the community, while the IAPs are the ones responsible for bringing food to GungHo's table.

IAP players can still be stratified, though. GungHo's real target audience are the casual spenders who do not dedicate an entire trust fund worth of money to getting huge amounts of stones, much like the guy who spent 230+ stones to get from rank 880 to rank 900 doing Legendary Seaway for 48 hours. Because those guys will bring in a burst of revenue but what's important to note is that those bulk spenders will eventually stop - it's a temporary boost in sales, but nothing sustained like the casual spenders who may drop bucks here and there to try and milk a godfes.


元素召唤 || pad & msl news translator robit
twitter xx motk resident whale

Zerviscos

  • Infinite Bread Chewing Powers! Activate!
  • *
  • Om nom nom nom nom nom*
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #436 on: September 19, 2014, 03:40:22 PM »

I kind understand how Gohan evolved from kid to adult, but not why he chose to evolve in a non-super saiyan form. Srz, even Kid Super Saiyan 2 beats non-super saiyan any day.



Twitter | Steam | Battle.net[Zerviscos#1833]

Espadas

  • *
  • You're gonna have a bad time
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #437 on: September 19, 2014, 04:15:52 PM »

I kind understand how Gohan evolved from kid to adult, but not why he chose to evolve in a non-super saiyan form. Srz, even Kid Super Saiyan 2 beats non-super saiyan any day.

Mystic Gohan? Technically is his strongest form....

Btw, i just tried Friday Dungeon Expert for the first time with a zombie team..... and got stomped by triple 2-timer dub-lits in wave 4.  :V
So lovely to see 60% of my stamina wasted just like that....

Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #438 on: September 19, 2014, 04:33:48 PM »
Cleared Sky Prison again with little trouble, but got a Devilit again.

This is going to suck really hard isn't it  :ohdear:

Thaws

  • _m廿廿m_
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #439 on: September 19, 2014, 04:58:34 PM »
Regarding balance issues, right now I don't see bastet competing against any of the high end teams (Ronia, Bodin, Pandora?).
1 year ago, Bastet's ult brought Ookuni's LS a buff from 3.5x to 4x, I can see it happening again when he ults. (6c 4x 7c 4.5x? 7c 4.5 sounds abit too much though)
The border between 7 and 8 combo is significant because it's where boards that are impossible to have enough combos starts ti appears quite often so it's more luck based and tricky to balance...
Kushi if she doesn't get any slight boost, will probably only get used for 3 colour dungeons, and very good sub in multi-colour teams. (Speaking of buffing, susano really needs a buff... This is what Chaore is mad about in general, right? People are making fun of how Lakshmi isn't getting the buff she deserves yet too)

I guess free x3.5 atk has to be coming as ls moves on to 1.35/3/1 skills already, but they're going to have to buff many things to make this balanced...

As for making money, coin dungeons are now their newest money making plan to make up for double stam. Since they unlock for an hour only, people are spending absurd amounts of stones on it probably. Especially for the must-skill-up mon which drops extremely rarely.

Espadas

  • *
  • You're gonna have a bad time
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #440 on: September 19, 2014, 05:07:01 PM »
Trance will skin me alive for this but.... second attempt ever at Friday Expert, and this time i clear it.

Dub-Topalit and Dub-Sapphilit  :derp:

hyorinryu

  • mrgrgr
  • In need of a new sig
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #441 on: September 19, 2014, 05:09:10 PM »
(Speaking of buffing, susano really needs a buff... This is what Chaore is mad about in general, right? People are making fun of how Lakshmi isn't getting the buff she deserves yet too)

I guess free x3.5 atk has to be coming as ls moves on to 1.35/3/1 skills already, but they're going to have to buff many things to make this balanced...

As for making money, coin dungeons are now their newest money making plan to make up for double stam. Since they unlock for an hour only, people are spending absurd amounts of stones on it probably. Especially for the must-skill-up mon which drops extremely rarely.

He hasn't spoken about Susanoo specifically, so I doubt it. He's prolly more referring to stuff like Izanagi and SoD Lucifer, who got crap ults because they're not waifu material. The former even got a bunch of complaints too.

*currently under repair*
Puzzle Dragon stuff

Thaws

  • _m廿廿m_
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #442 on: September 19, 2014, 05:20:17 PM »
He hasn't spoken about Susanoo specifically, so I doubt it. He's prolly more referring to stuff like Izanagi and SoD Lucifer, who got crap ults because they're not waifu material. The former even got a bunch of complaints too.

The thing I don't get with izanagi complaints is, he was already an amazing sub, then he got +500hp with his ult, I mean, there would probably been have less complaints if they just flat out kept his LS unchanged. Lol
I just want his sons and daughters back in his pic because that was a cool idea.

Lucifer though... yea, can't argue that.

hyorinryu

  • mrgrgr
  • In need of a new sig
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #443 on: September 19, 2014, 05:23:48 PM »
The thing I don't get with izanagi complaints is, he was already an amazing sub, then he got +500hp with his ult, I mean, there would probably been have less complaints if they just flat out kept his LS unchanged. Lol
I just want his sons and daughters back in his pic because that was a cool idea.

Lucifer though... yea, can't argue that.

Yeah, I seem to also seem to recall something about conflicting with his mythology(Izanagi.) Yeah the sons and daughters were cool I miss the horses in Athena's too.

*currently under repair*
Puzzle Dragon stuff

commandercool

  • alter cool
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #444 on: September 19, 2014, 05:31:58 PM »
Except they will introduce convoluted PvP in the form of Pazudora Challenge.

Fair enough, that's going to be interesting. But, as far as I know, a whooooole different can of worms. To my very basic knowledge/series of assumptions about how that will work a monster's in-game stats shouldn't have that much to do with its capabilities as an enemy in a dungeon. Maybe, I don't know.

So GungHo either makes a dungeons where having that monster or something equally as powerful is an absolute necessity (which brings challenge again to the whales, but pretty much locks that content out of anyone who doesn't have the required monsters) or end up losing a chunk of their revenue due to their whales just...leaving after a while.

That's how I see it anyway, I may be wrong altogether though.

Sounds about right, and what that boils down to is that the general power level trend is going to be upward. Of course, it would basically have to be. That being the case, I don't really understand where the outrage on something getting megabuffed comes from. Unless the idea is that the buff is so substantial that it will accelerate power creep directly it doesn't seem like anything other than natural, expected progression.

I understand the complaints about things that are already good getting buffed over things that aren't. I was talking to someone yesterday about how I thought Spread Cats should be buffed, and my basic take on it was "Fuck Bastet, she's already fine, she doesn't need even more stuff". And I stand by that, ideally any time spent on making her incrementally better over and over would be going to re-balancing stuff that actually isn't already good. But given how frequently adjustments and new forms and stuff get rolled out I don't actually think one small change to something that arguably doesn't deserve it will have a huge effect. Is it a small part of a large pattern? Possibly, but I don't know that I've necessarily seen that in action yet.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #445 on: September 19, 2014, 06:27:49 PM »
so how long until this happens


The Greatest Dog

  • Grazing at Mach 10
  • 90 Frames per Second GO!
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #446 on: September 19, 2014, 06:41:50 PM »

Beyzul is already dead.

I took a screenshot as I entered the first wave. Apparently this took 35 minutes!
I intended to just use Noah against Wangren but then a King Dragon appeared on wave five and I didn't want to burn Cleopatra on it. I'll have to raise Noah's attack above 1000 if I want to use it against green Kings but whatever.
I also never actually used my second Gabriel's conversion (he's only got one skillup), so I can probably replace him with something else. But that RCV is too good to pass up...

Espadas

  • *
  • You're gonna have a bad time
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #447 on: September 19, 2014, 07:05:54 PM »
so how long until this happens



HOLY CR*P!!
Shut up and take my money!!

Seriously, THIS collab would be my second all-time favourite, only beaten by a Touhou one....

Jq1790

  • Wow I'm back to playing this game.
  • Let's puzzle together again, Karin!
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #448 on: September 19, 2014, 07:15:14 PM »
If I were IAP I'd probably put some dollars down on that Shimakaze if they ever did that collab for real.
If you're a Pazudora player and aren't on #puzzleandlibrarians, come join us!

commandercool

  • alter cool
Re: Puzzles and Dragons 12: Magic Stones and Loathing in Las Dungons
« Reply #449 on: September 19, 2014, 08:09:14 PM »
I'm not anti-Kantai Collection exactly, but I don't especially want it touching my stuff. Although the way collaborations are integrated they're pretty easy to not engage. I wouldn't be in favor, but if it would make other people happy it would probably be good overall. After all, I inexplicably got my Eva collab.

That said, Madoka collab now please. NOW.
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.