Touhou: Awareness of Color Mafia. Day 3.

[WHMZakeri]

I skipped to theend ofthe tread,had to go back apageto seethe votecount, wonderedwheremyvotewent, and then I readactiondan failedthe entire day for us.
also, i'm noteditingthis post in the hopes of othersunderstanding why I can't deal withthis computer.
I'll be home in 9-10 hours, so I can readbetter there.

Dan isalmostcertainly town and we probably won't need to use the no-lynch again unless the post restriction thing sticks around, which is probably super likely.
It feels bad having to basically waste theentire day forhis sake, though. Dan is almostcertain to be town, so we don't have achoice.

I don't have time to readthrough the posts right now, but I'd like to encourage everyone to talk about who they would rather lynch.

[Moridin]

I think moridin still doesn't understand the post restriction entirely actually

Yeah opps. Was confused about some things.

So what thinking about it... ActionDan is TOWN and obviously lynching TOWN is bad thing to do. So lets not lynch him.
##Vote: No Lynch

[BT]

This is a long post but I'm not sure how to make it more readable. I'm sorry.

I'd feel that massaca and oarfish are ok town to me. no reason to hit dan with a post restriction and try to lynch him. only reason i could see this happening is if they knew he had some super cool role but thats pretty unlikely. this is also assuming actiondan would flip town.

"Only reason..." are you sure? There's plenty of reasons to do that. If I were scum with knowledge of the restriction I don't think it would affect my play around Dan any. In fact, the best way to make someone post more and slip up is by interacting with them. So this seems like a really weird clear to rationalize.

Now about Dan. The way I see it, you either think the threat of post restriction shenanigans is too great or don't. The information gained from D1 Dan lynch is mostly already on the table unless you don't think Dan is town.

My gut reaction to the post restriction issue is that it's paranoia and this doesn't usually happen, but I could be wrong about that. Like, if I get a post restriction with repercussions, it's sure to be on my mind every time I think about posting. Probably the worst part about this is that it's still D1 so we're in the dark - it might be better or worse than it seems. Under the assumption that it's a nightly malicious post restriction... can't we manage it? Just think before you post. We can all hold hands and do it.

I'd say 'we could just not trigger it again' but I'm well aware who I'm playing with.

Hold, hands.  :colbert:

But that's kind of a tangent, because it actually doesn't matter that much what happens - if we lynch Dan now and post restrictions are really going to be such a pain, we'll be right back here later like nothing's happened. The decision might not matter as much as we think. We lynch Dan, another dude gets restrictioned, in comes the stupid WIFOM about whether he's town-cleared or it's a gambit to get him town-cleared and we'll fight over lynch / no lynch again. .....We No Lynch here, this happens next time and since the choice is lynch / lynch the threat of a gambit is pretty much gone. Whoa. Scum will at worst give the restriction to someone they really trust not to fuck up, but then we avoid this stupid post restriction penalty scenario anyway.

Rambling. I think the point is that this decision might not be that bad. No Lynch isn't the end of the world and lynching someone everyone leans town on for no information is obviously worse.

You now know that ActionDan's Post Restriction has the Effect of making him the only lynch target: why is it reasonable to assume Scum!ActionDan paid so little attention to preventing a duel with No Lynch-tan and make himself into the D1 lynch?

To be fair town would be careful too, but in this case, actually, scum would have to be doubly aware, not just because of the usual burden of teamwork but because this is something they had planned to do, so obviously he mustn't fuck up. Yeah, I'm pretty certain now.

There's another detail about this situation that I'll refrain from noting until... the end of the day, probably. It's related to this choice not being as important as we think it is, and unrelated to the lynch (THIS lynch) itself, so it's okay. Watch this space.

b]##Vote No Lynch[/b] (cut: how much are we at?)

You admit it's a stretch that apparently the grand plan here is to soak up the no Lynch (which btw,  is not awful because we have even numbers and is a threat to scum too because everyone loses on the 2nd no lynch)

A pretty horrible thought that comes to mind is that we can actually go full defeatist mode and force-make everyone lose if town is locked into a mislynch that loses the game. Mislynch or rocks fall? Rocks fall. It would not be very good sport-y however.

More tangents:

Oh... [Sky] does that here as well?

I knew those silly "here are four options: <infodump>" lines from your earlier posts looked familiar, that's what Sky did in his first game here. Don't do that. Explain what the likeliest possibility is instead of listing all of them.

[ActionDan]

That's an abrupt change of heart moridin but ok it's nice to see the light.

Massaca the post restriction lasts today only.  I sort of liked to have wifomed whether I got "powers" albeit if they were antitown (which I'm not sure is possible as you mentioned because power is power).  However I specifically said "effect" for a reason.  It was that my votes can't be hammer votes.  I witheld that to troll hammer and get a reaction. 

Anyway this additional information available to you or not, you haven't actually commented which way you are leaning since page 7 even though you pushed me earlier.  A penny for your thoughts?

Also
##vote no lynch

Also SB where?

[CF7]

You all should make a donation to the Hakurei Shrine votecount.

ActionDan (4): CF7, Dr Rawr, Dormio, Oarfish
No_Lynch (VIII): Dorian, Raikaria, Just, Serela, Schezo, NNR, Moridin84, ActionDan

Not voting.
Chaore, BT, Zakeri, Massaca, SB

9 votes are needed to make a decision.

Hours remaining: 17.

[Raikaria]

A pretty horrible thought that comes to mind is that we can actually go full defeatist mode and force-make everyone lose if town is locked into a mislynch that loses the game. Mislynch or rocks fall? Rocks fall. It would not be very good sport-y however.

Technically we can't since playing to universal loss is not playing to our wincon.

Unless it's like, this situation again with someone who is confirmed town.

[Raikaria]

I don't have time to readthrough the posts right now, but I'd like to encourage everyone to talk about who they would rather lynch.

My opinion of who I would lynch at this moment remains the same as it did before; I would be voting for Dorian.

[Dorian White]

##Unvote
I'm working on a post right now and a hammer would be counterproductive.

[Dorian White]

Dorian tries a UK style reread, wait warmly till it's done.
I'll skip most of the RVS things, in case you wonder, that will take me long enough anyway.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121041.html#msg1121041
Reply #49:
Dans PR claim, which could have been fake or real. We didn't knew it at the time and what it meant was anyones guess.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121044.html#msg1121044
Reply #50:
I consider this as the first serious vote, I'll may use it as reference point later.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121057.html#msg1121057
Reply #58:
?Especially since it's coming out of RVS.? ?Although admittedly we're a long way for L-1 Dormio.?
What does that even mean? I think I'm missing the context here and where is your exclamation of disgust, giving your opinion on ?wagon hopping accusations??

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121070.html#msg1121070
Reply #62:
Schezo follows Bards example, which looks kinda odd cause his last line makes me think he should rather vote Moridin.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121075.html#msg1121075
Reply #65:
That's the only real vote on Dormio so far and I like the reason even if it doesn't hold for long.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121101.html#msg1121101
Reply #74:
Massacas empty unvote, giving that Dormio was at L-3 at that point isn't is that much of a overiaction, at least not for a new player.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121106.html#msg1121106
Reply #76:
Zakeris joke vote, late delivered for sure but I don't see what were so important of the events so far that it would be a major offense to not contribute to it.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121122.html#msg1121122
Reply #80:
First I can say that I'm content with Dormios explanation for his former SB vote, he could have said so in the first place but that's our Durrmio.
And secondly, Dormio votes Zakeri for taking the joke serious, which isn't the same reason as Serela and I guess it's also the reason why the vote didn't hold that long.

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121146.html#msg1121146
Reply #90:
Once again, the double standard was a misinterpretation on my and but still, justifying someones behavior as in ?he was just joking, it's not a big deal.? Just to go ?Why are you only joking around now?? To vote said someone still strikes me as odd at best.


https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121165.html#msg1121165
Reply #92:
That's really hilarious, first the ?circumstances of his vote? are scummy, then  the ?incredibly shitty scumtell for a reason? is scummy and finaly the best point ?Zak says it's a joke, which isn't much better considering we're well past the RVS phase and he should have some real scumreads.?
And with ?some real scumreads? you mean as much as you had at the time? Oh wait.
Also:?Also ##FoS on SB for having no scumreads and not doing anything else productive. At least comment on the current votes in place or something, or comment on any of the weird quirks.? Geez was the kettle black that day.
 
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17271.msg1121167.html#msg1121167
Reply #93:
?Zakeri is summarily terrible and I'm somewhat annoyed my joke 'He's going to lurk again!' is slowly becoming true with this active non-contribution pile of horse he's pulling out. Keeping my vote on him.? Well, maybe you shouldn't make self-fulfilling prophecy if you don't like the outcome.


I mean seriously, if there was so much glorious content to contribute to then why did you felt the need to jump on a belated joke vote as it were a scum claim or something? So my interim result is that the Zakeri wagon was over-proportional garbage, RVS ended around page 4. as clearly proven by the increase of content and whoever says something else should prove that.
That leads me currently to the suspects:

NNR
Chaore
Serela

If you have any questions then ask them within the next one and a half hours, cause then I'll go back to continue this mess and only god can tell you when you get your answer.
Till then, ?It's early day 1 anyway, we're all basically vomitting words and trying to act like we're better than others (Or atleast i am whoops).? Hypocrite party in Chaores glasshouse! \^u^/

[Chaore]

New Apartment has a leak, getting that taken care of at the moment.

Kind of not sure on what BT said, I kinda agree with it but some points feel actually awfully off. Notably, why would scum aim for someone they want to not fuck up instead of people who they want to force the lynch on?

I do think my initial reaction was kind of paranoia-based like he said though, and I'm definitely acting a bit less logically based on that.

The rest of the points are less interesting. Boo. Atleast someone actually adressed what I was concerned about.

[Serela]

why did you felt the need to jump on a belated joke vote as it were a scum claim or something

I think you're taking the votes a little too seriously here, an ED1 vote almost certainly isn't going to be terribly solid but you're still going to vote it because it's better than jokevotes.

I don't really understand your pot&kettle accusation at NNR at all, I don't get where you're coming from. SB pretty much just went "no reads, bye" so NNR's comment was pretty justified? Even if you don't agree with NNR's activity he certainly wasn't sitting around uselessly. Somewhat related, I don't get why you criticize Chaore's dissatisfaction with Zak!lurk. (While you didn't mention Zak being technically V/LA but it still being a relevant point, the fact that Zakeri was making decent-sized posts excuses him from being able to blame it on being busy; sure, he's busy, that's fine, but then when he did make posts they were fluffpillows. That being said Zak's pretty smallbusiness by now, since we've moved on)

Once again, the double standard was a misinterpretation on my and but still, justifying someones behavior as in ?he was just joking, it's not a big deal.? Just to go ?Why are you only joking around now?? To vote said someone still strikes me as odd at best.

You're not getting what my point was. Raikaria's reaction was over-the-top and kept going and digging, but it was at a silly joke- from other people imo that'd be votable but then I remembered Raikaria is always like that. The person who was sitting around just making jokes is still bad in themselves. If it had been someone other than Raikaria they BOTH would be been voteworthy. Just because I vote A due to their reaction to B does not mean I'm defending B.

I don't really have any solid conclusion to make with this post admittedly other than it feels like you're interpreting the Zak wagon as people hailing him as a maflord rather than as the "barely-out-of-rvs" acceptable vote target it was. (This is supported by how you refer to it as "jump [on the wagon] as [if] it were a scum claim"). It's also supported by numerous nitpicks on things that either are irrelevant attacks on character or really just don't seem to be true.

[BT]

Notably, why would scum aim for someone they want to not fuck up instead of people who they want to force the lynch on?

Oh I think I see what you're talking about. Nah, I said "someone they really trust not to fuck up" as in "someone [on their team] they.." because I was talking about gambits. They can theoretically give the restriction to someone and make them seem town. But yeah, then it'd be suspect because why not give it to a schmuck, good point.

I'll read Dorian's and Serela's posts later because I'm fake-busy at the moment.

[Chaore]

Oh I think I see what you're talking about. Nah, I said "someone they really trust not to fuck up" as in "someone [on their team] they.." because I was talking about gambits. They can theoretically give the restriction to someone and make them seem town. But yeah, then it'd be suspect because why not give it to a schmuck, good point.

I'll read Dorian's and Serela's posts later because I'm fake-busy at the moment.

Yeah I don't think the power here, and what I'm really scared of is in gambits. That's really dumb, especially if they can get us to waste the No Lynch D1 by giving it to someone the can expect to fuck up, because they basically can neuter our ability to do anything if they keep going for easy fuck ups.

At the same time, I think I'm being a bit paranoid about that. This post restriction seemed kind of easy and Dan just...blew it, hard.

I also think that kind of power in Scum's hand is kind of scary strong and wonder why this would be a thing though.

Still dealing with Leak. had someone look at it once and then it started again! I hate this place already.

[SB]

Been busy. Catching up now.

[Dorian White]

@ Serela: Sure I may take things a ?little too serious?, as you said it's still better then a joke vote. And about pot&kettle, I just reread that part and NNR certainly was sitting around uselessly, all he got at that point was his joke vote, a prod on Dan and finaly a scum read on Zakeri, which was half sheeped and effortless to begin with, do you still understand what I mean?
Chaore on the other hand is a bit more tricky, make a joke vote on someone who's already well know for lurking out day one, saying that he will lurk again. Then wait some time till he get prodded or makes content-less posts, so you can say ?I knew it, vote stays!? It's a nice trick but I think actual scumhunting is something else.

...
You're not getting what my point was. Raikaria's reaction was over-the-top and kept going and digging, but it was at a silly joke- from other people imo that'd be votable but then I remembered Raikaria is always like that. The person who was sitting around just making jokes is still bad in themselves. If it had been someone other than Raikaria they BOTH would be been voteworthy. Just because I vote A due to their reaction to B does not mean I'm defending B.
...

I get this point but it leads me once again to a question that I already asked, so let me ask you again as simple as possible.
Two player acting according to their meta, one get excused for it the other get the vote, why?

However, I can assure you that I see my points as nothing more than they are, a first moment of suspicion where I have the rest of today all of day two to see if it holds or not.

[SB]

I have surprisingly little to say. For the amount of words in this game there isn't an awful lot I find overly useful?

Bard and Schezo assuming there's only 3 scum is kind of baffling to me - I expected at least 4. What makes you think that?

Oarfish's cases are ridiculous but it's gotten to the point where I think his scumbuddies would be screaming at him to stop if he was scum. He really needs to take off the tunnel goggles though and read into other players.

Serela's posts have improved and I don't really suspect him anymore.

I don't like Zak's "we won't need the NL unless the PR guy sticks around which he probably will" because isn't that kind of contradictory? The "you should all post your suspicions anyway" also feels like it's just being said for towncred? Like, I can understand if you're busy and stuff but couldn't you have at least said "I'm suspicious of X, will elaborate when I have time"?

[O4rfish]

Dan's recent posts make me feel better about having him stick around.

Since we've pretty much decided to Not Lynch, I will spend today looking for scum elsewhere.

[ActionDan]

I get the rawr scum feels.

[BT]

Fake-busy turned into real-busy so I'll read it all when I rehash stuff for tomorrow. I'm voting now since I'll wake up after deadline. Someone who'll be around later can unvote if L-1 is a problem.

##Vote No Lynch

[ActionDan]

##Unvote
#vote no lynch

zomg hammerz

[ActionDan]

But really I'm tired and another match starts soon.  Someone make my day

[CF7]

Votes for the Vote God.

ActionDan (4): CF7, Dr Rawr, Dormio, Oarfish
No_Lynch (VIII): Raikaria, Just, Serela, Schezo, NNR, Moridin84, BT, ActionDan

Not voting.
Chaore, Zakeri, Massaca, SB, Dorian

9 votes are needed to make a decision.

Hours remaining: 8.5
[/quote]

[Raikaria]

Not much to say atm. Going to sleep now. Will talk more Day 2 after night events and I've had time to digest the events of D1 more.

[Dorian White]

Change of plan, I'll finish my reread over the night. It's not like I could finish it in time and be still awake enough to tell you about it anyway.
I'll also try to be back before deadline but that looks kinda unlikely.

Good night

[Chaore]

leak not fixed, kitchen broken, had to walk half a mile for food.

Today has sucked and I would not mind terribly to forget about mafia, but deadline is in four hours so give me a bit.

I don't think there's anything important that happened besides me temporarily forgetting Dan can't hammer.

I'm still not sure if this is the best idea, but BT is right in that I am being way to scared of this post restriction bullshit and probably making bad calls. Will be fine to hammer no lynch, choice or not.

[O4rfish]

Is there actually a difference between hammering no-lynch and letting time run out?

[Chaore]

Is there actually a difference between hammering no-lynch and letting time run out?

no clue

i do not particularly want to find out however

[Sky_Paladin]

Is there actually a difference between hammering no-lynch and letting time run out?

A no lynch will occur if the phase timer expires, or no-lynch is hammered. 

[Massaca]

Tried to reread from day 5 onwards, still got nothing.
##Vote: ActionDan

Would prefer to have his flip and this situation cleared up as I still think the restriction more likely came from town than scum and that he's not cleared in any way.
Even though no-lynch is pretty much certain now.

[Chaore]

Tried to reread from day 5 onwards, still got nothing.
##Vote: ActionDan

Would prefer to have his flip and this situation cleared up as I still think the restriction more likely came from town than scum and that he's not cleared in any way.
Even though no-lynch is pretty much certain now.

I'm curious as to why, especially now that Dan's revealed this has had -entirely- negative side-effects?

Like, aside from the fact that it's obviously still in position, this is like literally the shittiest town role if it's town.

If you have like, literally any information otherwise, -right now- is the time to reveal that.