League of Legends Thread XV - aww lookit the cute little BLARGHARGH

[Mr. Sacchi]

As far as I've seen? Not horrible. Especially since they basically only changed one ability.

They didn't even kill AP Trist, just made her a bit harder to play.

[Ryuu]

Eh gross, new trist sounds like trash. What's the public opinion been like?

she's better than she ever has been lol

her mid game actually exists now

[Cadmas]

she's better than she ever has been lol

her mid game actually exists now

So she just linear scales now like the other adcs, basically.

Better for competitive play I guess.

[hyorinryu]

she's better than she ever has been lol

her mid game actually exists now

Really? From what I've seen, people seem to think she's garbage now. Didn't they gut her attack speed? She's still my go to ADC though.

[Bardiche]

Runeblade's not that good a mastery, it's mainly good for helping mages cs with autos. It has minimal impact on every build, so you shouldn't count on it. Same thing with the autoattack/spell mutual dmg boost masteries, masteries each have pretty small impact so you pick ones that fit your build/playstyle, not the other way around.

Oh, really? When you say auto-attack/spell mutual dmg boost masteries, which ones do you mean? The ones providing piercing, or the low level mastery that's like, 2 more damage against minions lol

[Ryuu]

So she just linear scales now like the other adcs, basically.

Better for competitive play I guess.

nnnnnnnnnno she still has a strong early game, a weak mid game, and a strong late game

it's just that her late game is slightly less strong and her mid game exists.

and wtf "linear scales"? are you even playing the same game as everyone else? ADC power spikes are more varied than they've ever been literally ever.

Really? From what I've seen, people seem to think she's garbage now. Didn't they gut her attack speed? She's still my go to ADC though.

you have to remember two things

a: people are really stupid

b: anything that isn't The Best is "garbage"

tristana is pretty decent in several areas but is somewhat outclassed in every area depending on why she's a considered pick. early game power? lucian, graves, caitlyn, etc. all outpower her. late game teamfights? caitlyn and jinx have better late games("BUT CAITLYN'S DPS IS LOWER" yeah but she can self peel forever and has super good range and doesn't require level 18 to poke turrets and position safely). tower pushing? caitlyn can potshot better, sooner. so can jinx, on top of switcheroo's insane aspd.

but on the other hand, tristana can do all of these things at once, just less good at one or two particular things and better and decent at everything. caitlyn does appear everywhere on the list, but caitlyn also has the disadvantage of pure dps whereas tristana does get some burst on her E popping and doesn't lose DPS by actually using spells in a fight. rn in competitive, tristana exists more as a pocket pick or a jack of all trades type champion. if you lose your preferred carry or strategy in pick/ban, you can easily pick tristana and fit her into any non-mid game focused team comp. tristana also has potential to become a contested pick imo, but the meta might need to shift a little bit for that to happen first since she can't buzzsaw through the current tank lines like jinx can


although a lot of this means that tristana is actually a really good solo queue pick now that i think about it.

[Bardiche]

First three people to lock in: Cho'gath, Riven and LeBlanc.

"Need ADC", quoth the last player. OK, guess I'll Sivir.

He locks in Yasuo and takes all bot lane farm (and never pokes enemy support TEEMO). Then goes mid instead of Le Blanc, who goes bot... to take farm.

Then they complain my CS is too low.

Um, what.

[hyorinryu]

although a lot of this means that tristana is actually a really good solo queue pick now that i think about it.

I thought she was always a good pick. I like her as a late game carry with a decent amount of self peel.

[Cadmas]

nnnnnnnnnno she still has a strong early game, a weak mid game, and a strong late game

it's just that her late game is slightly less strong and her mid game exists.

and wtf "linear scales"? are you even playing the same game as everyone else? ADC power spikes are more varied than they've ever been literally ever.

I haven't played this game in possibly well over a year now; I can't speak of the current balance. All I know is what Riot has told me for years in their patch note videos and that's "Bring X champ in line with others"

If they've managed to not go down that path too much, then good for them? Is variance good for the game or bad? I don't really know.

[Raitaki]

Oh, really? When you say auto-attack/spell mutual dmg boost masteries, which ones do you mean? The ones providing piercing, or the low level mastery that's like, 2 more damage against minions lol

I meant Spell Weaving and Blade Weaving. Though personally I never use those because lol3%

[Ryuu]

I haven't played this game in possibly well over a year now; I can't speak of the current balance.

then don't make a snooty post about the champion balance????????

[Raikaria]

she's better than she ever has been lol

her mid game actually exists now

I actually disagree here. She's below her former prime right now [Otherwise we'd have JuggerTrist comps and now Juggermaw], but she's stronger than she has been at may times in her lifespan as well.

She is certainly not the strongest she has ever been, and her rework was on the weak side; which is why Riot have added extra mini-reset mechanics to her.

And while her midgame exists it's still bad. Caitlyn's midgame exists but is bad. Trist's midgame instead of being a 4v5 i pretty much Caitlyn tier now. And her lategame is undeniably worse than before. Except where tower demolition is concerned. But Jinx does that too. While being relevant the entire game [The difference is Tristana is like; 10 times safer than Jinx, but generally if you are running a hypercarry in this meta you protect them which makes Trist's self-peel less important in the whole package; especially as Jinx can combo her snare with someone else's C.C.].

Right now the only time I'd go Trist over Jinx is if I don't have a team of beefy tanks to defend me.

[Ryuu]

I actually disagree here. She's below her former prime right now [Otherwise we'd have JuggerTrist comps and now Juggermaw],

"protect the

• " comps have always been about kog'maw tho except in extenuating circumstances. kog'maw also works better in the juggermaw comp b/c he has natural peel and armor/mr shred while also dealing mixed damage. juggermaw works specifically because of traits specific to kog'maw, so i don't think we'd be seeing juggertrist comps even if she was The Best carry b/c her strengths simply lay elsewhere

She is certainly not the strongest she has ever been, and her rework was on the weak side; which is why Riot have added extra mini-reset mechanics to her.

imo the recent buffs to her have made her the strongest she's ever been. the biggest reason she isn't seeing a lot of play imo is because she doesn't deal well with the cinderhulk meta mid game whereas the other hypercarries have more relevant options mid game that help them deal with it.

And while her midgame exists it's still bad. Caitlyn's midgame exists but is bad. Trist's midgame instead of being a 4v5 i pretty much Caitlyn tier now.

yeah, but this is a huge improvement over all of how tristana used to be. before, if she didn't absolutely crush lane, you had to wait until 35+m for her to be relevant. now, even if she goes even in lane, she can still have an impact on fights.

And her lategame is undeniably worse than before.

i think people are really overblowing this. like, yeah, it is, but it's nowhere near as significant as people seem to think.

Except where tower demolition is concerned. But Jinx does that too. While being relevant the entire game [The difference is Tristana is like; 10 times safer than Jinx, but generally if you are running a hypercarry in this meta you protect them which makes Trist's self-peel less important in the whole package; especially as Jinx can combo her snare with someone else's C.C.].

yeah, but this opens up different picks. you can take a weaker hypercarry in exchange for that carry being able to escape on their own. and since that carry can escape on their own, that means teams have an option to maybe switch a pick that would normally be protection to something else, like a more aggressive pick or a direct lane counterpick and such.

Right now the only time I'd go Trist over Jinx is if I don't have a team of beefy tanks to defend me.

i would pretty much always pick trist in solo queue for this reason lol

[Bardiche]

I get that normal team comp is ADC/Support bot, APC mid, AD/Tank top and another tank jungle, but is there any reason the bot can't be an APC?

[チソウ タイゼン]

I personally have some issues with running APC on bot, mainly because of resource control
There's more pressure to harass the lane opponents, since there's usually two of them, but your mana isn't going to hold up at all, because either you build mana items and lose damage, or you recall frequently, losing lane presence, or you eat the ADC's CS for the sake of Doran's passive. It's basically only viable when the enemy is doing the very same, I believe.

[Raikaria]

That feeling when your allied Sivir has a go at you for 'engageing randomly' when your E as Zac hit 2 and forced their ADC to flash and ended in a 5-1 teamfight win [Guess who died. Sivir. Because she tried to run through the enemy team with her R to try and catch up with Jinx; admittedly while I was also using R and scattering them about, but a Sivir cannot 1v1 a Jinx.]

._. No-one appreciates tanks.

[Bardiche]

I personally have some issues with running APC on bot, mainly because of resource control
There's more pressure to harass the lane opponents, since there's usually two of them, but your mana isn't going to hold up at all, because either you build mana items and lose damage, or you recall frequently, losing lane presence, or you eat the ADC's CS for the sake of Doran's passive. It's basically only viable when the enemy is doing the very same, I believe.

I get that, but I mean going APC/Support bot, instead of ADC/Support. I'm more curious about why you cannot go Veigar bot with Lulu support, for example.

[Think Komachi with a Rifle]

I get that normal team comp is ADC/Support bot, APC mid, AD/Tank top and another tank jungle, but is there any reason the bot can't be an APC?

APCs often scale well with levels as well as items. You are getting reduced exp for being a duo lane. the closest you normally get are caster hybrid adcs (corki, ezreal, kog maw, urgot)

it's also rarely AD (well there's riven, but she got nerfed into oblivion if you aren't very skilled) top, beyond a token item on a tank.

mid is APC/assassin/caster adc . You care the most about getting lvl 6 asap. The safest lane, jungle can nearly always countergank mid

top is tank / bruiser (bruisers are often ap/ad hybrid, or even pure AP), The least safe lane, must be okay 1v2.

jungle tank/bruiser/assassin/ADC (yi, trynd, occasionally twitch), jungle viability is based on ability to clear it without running out of HP/mana, and what you can apply to the lanes either very early or at lvl 6.

bot support + carry/ or a kill lane.

A lot comes down to melee adcs being weak and ranged ones being a liability early game, it's either go bot lane duo, you take zed/riven/yasuo and pray they get fed, or you have no AD at all end game.

[Raikaria]

Another key reason AP's tend to go mid is that they generally can clear waves very fast, and can use that combined with their burst and level advantage to roam and gank other lanes.

Also Riven isn't a melee carry in any way; shape or form. Riven falls off late. Melee carries are autoattackers and generally have a massive steroid and at least one strong 'Cheat Death' mechanic:

Yi - Highlander/Wuju Style [Steroid]; Alpha Strike/Meditate [Cheat Death]

Tryndamere: Passive/Bloodlust [Steroids]; Undying Rage [Cheat Death]

Fiora: Riposte/Burst of Speed [Steroids]; Blade Waltz [Cheat Death]

Aatrox: Blood Well/Blood Price/Massacre [Steroids]; Blood Well/Blood Thirst [Cheat Death]

Jax: Passive/Grandmaster's Might Passive [Steroids]; Counterstrike/Grandmaster's Might [Cheat Death]

Yasuo: Intent [Steroid]; Wind Wall/Resolve [Cheat Death]

Olaf: Passive/Vicious Strikes/Ragnarok [Steroids]; Ragnarok/Vicious Strikes [Cheat Death]

All of these champions rely almost entirely on autoattacks for their damage outputs, and have massive steroids and methords to cheat death [Olaf and Yasuo less so; but Yasuo can get 940 sheilding and block skillshots; while Olaf cheats death by becoming C.C immune and having a lifesteal steroid while also getting bonus AS and increased healing on low HP]

Technically Riven has a steroid and a [Very minor in Valor] way to cheat death; but she relies on her abilities, not her autoattacks. She is no more a melee carry than Zed is [Who has bonus AD and can 'cheat death' with Death Mark]

And generally if you want to cheese out an ADC lane you don't pick someone like Riven or Zed. They really need levels to start dumpstering people. What you do if you want to counter carries in the botlane and try to take them out of the game early is play someone like Jarvan paired with Leona, who can easily jump on the carry or the support from a long range; and C.C lock them while having good early damage and resilience to being poked down.

[Ryuu]

re: AP bot, mana, levels, roam, etc. okay everyone listed why before i woke up

Also Riven isn't a melee carry in any way; shape or form. Riven falls off late.

you're right that riven isn't a melee carry, but she doesn't fall off late. well, not in a statistical sense at least. she has incredibly varying difficulty in her ability to do things based on who she's against, how fed she got, and what she decided to build. so against certain comps she might have an impossible late game, but against others she could be able to do basically whatever she wants

Jax: Passive/Grandmaster's Might Passive [Steroids]; Counterstrike/Grandmaster's Might [Cheat Death]

Yasuo: Intent [Steroid]; Wind Wall/Resolve [Cheat Death]

Olaf: Passive/Vicious Strikes/Ragnarok [Steroids]; Ragnarok/Vicious Strikes [Cheat Death]

none of these three are melee carries. jax and olaf are fighters, and yasuo is an AD caster(so technically a fighter)

Technically Riven has a steroid and a [Very minor in Valor] way to cheat death; but she relies on her abilities, not her autoattacks.

like... half of riven's damage comes from her passive. she is very, very reliant on auto attacks.

[Raikaria]

none of these three are melee carries. jax and olaf are fighters, and yasuo is an AD caster(so technically a fighter)

Jax fits the definition of a carry. Weak earlygame. Strongest lategame. Reliant on auto-attacks. He's like the Corki/Ezreal of melee carries. He dosen't really build crit; he builds Triforce and BotRK, and does hybrid damage.

Olaf is not usually played as a carry but he can be to a frightening level of effect [Turns out getting free lifesteal; CC immunity and tons of free attackspeed can make you wreck people if you get ahead]. It's like Aatrox is usually played as a tank not a carry. They are both carries who can go bruiser or tank.

Yasuo is a melee carry. Yasuo's Q scales with 100% total AD and can crit; and even scales it's cooldown with attack speed so for all intents and purposes is an autoattack. Sweeping Blade dosen't even scale with AD; and Fiora having Blade Waltz doesn't make her an AD Caster; so Yasuo's R dosen't make him a AD caster. There's a huge difference between an AD caster like Talon; Zed and Riven who's abilities... are not autoattacks, and Yasuo. Not to mention Yasuo literally builds a full ADC's build normally.

And Riven falls off late because of a combination of her range [So plenty of time for her to get C.C'ed or blown up], and the fact that if she goes damage she is blown up; but if she goes durable enough to not get blown up, her damage is irrelevant.

Also Riven's passive is nowhere near 50% of her damage. Even at Lv 18 where it's dealing 50% AD it's still nowhere near because of base damages and the fact her ratios on every ability are above 50% [Even every cast of a maxed Broken Wings is 60% AD]. And it scales up to that 50% from a measly 20%. Riven's passive is a noticeable amount of her damage; but nowhere near as much as you make it out to be, especially in the earlygame.

[Ryuu]

Jax fits the definition of a carry. Weak earlygame. Strongest lategame. Reliant on auto-attacks.

that's........ not what carry means anymore..............

carry is a really outdated term. it honestly doesn't even fit into league anymore b/c it's incredibly difficult for a single player to carry an entire team now. it's just used because it's been used for so long. at this point, "carry" no longer means "weak early game, strong late game", it means "builds almost exclusively damage items"

also "carry" never meant "reliant on auto attacks", otherwise we never would have had AP carries

I debated calling Irelia a carry but she actually falls off pretty hard lategame and is more a midgame character,

this is one of those statements where i seriously just stop and wonder if we're even playing the same game

Olaf is not usually played as a carry but he can be to a frightening level of effect [Turns out getting free lifesteal; CC immunity and tons of free attackspeed can make you wreck people if you get ahead]. It's like Aatrox is usually played as a tank not a carry. They are both carries who can go bruiser or tank.

and neither of them build pure damage because it sucks

Yasuo is a melee carry. Yasuo's Q scales with 100% total AD and can crit; and even scales it's cooldown with attack speed

yeah it's almost like he's an AD mage or something

so for all intents and purposes is an autoattack.

lay waste is basically an auto attack. karthus for melee carry

Sweeping Blade dosen't even scale with AD;

yeah it's almost like he's an AD mage or something

and Fiora having Blade Waltz doesn't make her an AD Caster; so Yasuo's R dosen't make him a AD caster.

except the difference here is that one of these people has 10+s cooldowns on their spells and the other has a 4s cooldown on theirs. gee i wonder if that 6 second difference makes it so the playstyle is drastically different.

There's a huge difference between an AD caster like Talon; Zed and Riven who's abilities... are not autoattacks, and Yasuo.

i agree, two assassins, a fighter, and a mage/assassin hybrid would be pretty different champions

Not to mention Yasuo literally builds a full ADC's build normally.

no he doesn't. he usually builds 3 damage items and 2 defensive items.

And Riven falls off late because of a combination of her range [So plenty of time for her to get C.C'ed or blown up], and the fact that if she goes damage she is blown up; but if she goes durable enough to not get blown up, her damage is irrelevant.

which is why she dominates some teams and struggles against others. this has nothing to do with her "falling off". her power spikes aren't consistent between games because she has to play incredibly differently for each team.

Also Riven's passive is nowhere near 50% of her damage. Even at Lv 18 where it's dealing 50% AD it's still nowhere near because of base damages and the fact her ratios on every ability are above 50% [Even every cast of a maxed Broken Wings is 60% AD]. And it scales up to that 50% from a measly 20%. Riven's passive is a noticeable amount of her damage; but nowhere near as much as you make it out to be, especially in the earlygame.

"i've never played riven in my life" -above post, 2015

[Widermelonz]

And Riven falls off late because of a combination of her range [So plenty of time for her to get C.C'ed or blown up], and the fact that if she goes damage she is blown up; but if she goes durable enough to not get blown up, her damage is irrelevant.

Also Riven's passive is nowhere near 50% of her damage. Even at Lv 18 where it's dealing 50% AD it's still nowhere near because of base damages and the fact her ratios on every ability are above 50% [Even every cast of a maxed Broken Wings is 60% AD]. And it scales up to that 50% from a measly 20%. Riven's passive is a noticeable amount of her damage; but nowhere near as much as you make it out to be, especially in the earlygame.

Okay, once in a while you say some pretty insightful stuff about the game, but some times you say some stuff that just makes me go "are we playing the same game?" The first half of your post, even though I don't really agree with you, I can see where you're coming from. But the last part about riven I can't let slide. Riven in no way falls off late game. You say it's because she's melee and builds only damage so she gets blown up, and it makes her fall off late. Well, Yi and Talon both also build pure damage and both get blown up by C.C., but they're both still pretty good late games.

And also, Riven's passive and autoattacks spit out a ton of damage. If you want to see for yourself, go test it out. Go into a co-op vs. AI game, and get to lvl 12 and get a hydra+LW, then go attack dragon or baron. First, do a full combo with autos in between abilities/hydra. Then let its health regen back to full and do it a second time around using only abilities. I'm pretty sure you'll see a big difference.

You know what, I know how much you love using numbers to support your opinion, so here: I've attached an excel file that shows you just how good Riven's autoattacks are. Basically, at typical lvl18 with Hydra, LW, and ghostblade, at least 61.41% of riven's total damage in a typical combo are from purely autoattacks. If you add on more bonus AD like a BT (or your ult), then the number increases to 69.10%.

One aspect that you're right on though, is that Riven's passive is less than 50% of her damage. It's actually 20.11% of her damage (with 3 AD items). That is a lot of damage output purely from a passive.

EDIT: Cleaned up the excel file a bit.

[Ryuu]

you forgot the auto after using e

[Raitaki]

Hydra passive shouldn't be included, it doesn't hit the primary target.

[Widermelonz]

Derp, I brain-farted on the hydra, thanks for pointing it out. I updated it, but not much changed. Basically, her damage is ~60-70% from auto attacks and ~15-25% from the passive.

[Think Komachi with a Rifle]

I wasn't saying riven or zed were carries, was more considering who the main viable AD threats were without a conventional adc. Who besides ranged adcs makes Galio every game a no go.
i.e. who can you shut down by just stacking armour.

Top lane is a whole lot of build 1/2 offensive items then go full tank bruisers.

in terms of true AP carries. the on hit trio (Kayle, lulu, teemo) are the ones that would have actual viability in the bot lane position.

[Bardiche]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I pored over it a while, and though I still don't see why APC Bot is a terrible idea with a regular support helping you (so no ADC bot at all), but it's helpful to know why people go the way they do.

If anyone feels like partying up this weekend for IP boosts (the polearm needs his IP!!), feel free to invite me: Ramuhdo on NA. I went there because friends played there but predictably they don't want to play with sub-30. 8(

[チソウ タイゼン]

Discriminating based on level is dumb as hell. If you're down to play, I'm TaizenChisou (NA)

[hyorinryu]

Discriminating based on level is dumb as hell. If you're down to play, I'm TaizenChisou (NA)

It makes sense. If you're low level, you're at a severe disadvantage because you lacking the stats given by tier 3 runes, and League does have a bit of a learning curve. It takes a while to learn everything, and you might not want to deal with the new player's mistakes.