SCP Containment Breach Mafia - Game Over

[Raikaria]

I watched Dan and saw nothing. I wasn't roleblocked because Raikaria is scum. G'morning.

Well ain't that a very convenient thing to be a watcher/voyeur and see nothing the entire game.

[Raikaria]

Wait a second I just thought of something.

When Dan claimed he used to be a self-watcher; why didn't BT Counter-claim him? He's claiming a Watcher/Voyeur combination; in which case he should have severely doubted that Dan self-watched.

This throws addittional doubt onto BT's claim other than the fact he's had an active role for 3 nights and seen nothing at all.

[BT]

Well ain't that a very convenient thing to be a watcher/voyeur and see nothing the entire game.

Go night-by-night and show me how convenient my results are.

Wait a second I just thought of something.

When Dan claimed he used to be a self-watcher; why didn't BT Counter-claim him? He's claiming a Watcher/Voyeur combination; in which case he should have severely doubted that Dan self-watched.

This throws addittional doubt onto BT's claim other than the fact he's had an active role for 3 nights and seen nothing at all.

I'm not vanilla, I'm an alternating watcher/voyeur who got roleblocked last night trying to watch Vhaltz (didn't claim to be roleblocked when the day started because it'd be outing a PR and it was pretty likely that Vhaltz's the one who did it, which is hilariously sad). I wasn't sure if I wanted to claim, or claim some variation, or claim VT. In the end I'll just trust our ability to narrow it down anyway and the fact that you're [Dan] town, so me targeting you on N3 will force scum to kill me or Raikaria. When you claimed self-watcher I thought it was a clever choice for the setup because then I'd get voyeur results such as "a watcher targeted ActionDan" and it would be weird. Too bad. Extra motivation for me not really wanting to claim is the fact that my ability tonight is 99% useless unless I catch a secondary scum ability, which wouldn't probably tell me much anyway because it's just a voyeur. I'm SCP-372, if that helps any.

[BT]

btw, regarding the bolded:

I said the playerlist led me here, and that's because I'm pretty confident Raikaria is town, and (recently) I'm inclined to believe Dan.

This was before Dan "corrected" his claim. Was inclined to believe because of aforementioned clever setup antics, among other things. Mitsuki said her setup was checked thoroughly and I'm the kind of guy who likes making confusing setups (see Doctor Wars).

[BT]

Before I start reading the thread, I'll point out Raikaria's choice of result - the only way to avoid giving town two lynches would be to go through with a kill and feign failing the roleblock. Note that there would be no reason to bother with coming up with a dubious "failed" result if not for the double lynch option, but dude had to. Not only am I pretty sure some ascetic-esque shield would be weird as a scum utility this game, it's questionable why I wouldn't have just claimed something to that effect right off the bat if I were scum and had it (think ED1).

[BT]

I'll also point out that town have no one-shot roles. Why is that? Because SB's role would have caused confusion. He has a choice to either completely nullify a role or to render it one-shot (if I'm reading that right), but a town one-shot would have resulted in a funny situation were they to be hit with the second option. Dan's role is 3-shot to avoid that. Raikaria's a one-shot because he's fakeclaiming scum in a setup with an unlimited town jailor.

[BT]

Off the top of my head, the cornerstone of my case will probably be the fact that Raikaria spent most of his game on top of SB for ridiculous reasons (cite weird bussing all you want - that case was nonsensical) and from then on displayed apathy towards the wagons, jumping from one to another for weak reasons (sorry Sky!). The main example that comes to mind is his super weak bad gut on me, but it's obvious why I'd remember that one.

I want to get that out of the way first because it's usually the defining trait for a dude's scum game. Going back to Mirai Nikki's LYLO, the heart of my Conq case was that he spent his time pushing easy, straightforward cases with no interference of doubt. Replace Conq with Raikaria and replace shallow scumhunting with weak wagon presence. Scum won't exert unnecessary effort / care if there's no reason to do so. After Raikaria dropped the weird bus, it was straightforward scum MO to do what he did. You won't find that in my case - it'd be hard to explain why I'd go out of my way to case SB coming into D2. History shows that I don't just bus buddies for no reason. I like keeping my capable friends until they prove to be useless - see Utena and my Townest game. SB is capable - I wouldn't have done that. I would have just continued casing Raitaki/Dorian.

[BT]

Looking at the fabled big bad D1 bus, it's pretty digestable: Raikaria does a weird thing, SB attacks the weird thing because that's what he sees, Raikaria overreacts to his scumbuddy and starts laying down the bias. Unfortunately for Raikaria he doesn't find anything better than what he has thrust onto SB so he's forced to continue. Things to look at from that post:

Alright; first things first; I think my little nitpick has outworn it's relevance. It's just something I found that had a chance of being a slip [But apparently everyone else thinks it's not and I'm dumb] which I used to start discussion.

#Unvote

Right; so the next step is to look at what happened after my vote.

Reset.

SB's most recent post is also pretty bad. I think it's worth mentioning at this point he has only really contributed to respond to actions taken against him. [A common scum action] SB; as I just explained; your vote on me was bad. I suggested you were scum and you made a very shaky case on me; reading between the lines; and voted me for the first attempt at a real case in the game. That's an OMGUS reaction. You didn't even really critique the case.

Also I don't like how he's tightly gripping his 'case' on me when Raitaki has already attacked it and messed it up. No-one has been agreeing with your case SB. It might be time to drop it and start actually looking for scum if you want us to think that you are town instead if attacking a case that was naturally shaky as it was the first one out of RVS.

First paragraph: bias taking effect. Second paragraph: offering his scumbuddy a ladder to get down from the tree tops since he believes he has the upper hand in this argument.

It's annoying to have SB as the only person I think is the scums at this point because the primary reason I think he is scum is his direct interactions with me [And Raitaki] because I'm sure there might be a counter-accusation of OMGUS from SB; but the fact his his tunneling on an already dead case and him only talking about said case is as bad; if not worse than; the vote itself.

##Vote: SB

It sure is annoying.

[BT]

All you have done is defend yourself from Raitaki and defend your case and make that little post after being called out for Tunneling already by me. Obviously I'm focusing on you right now; no-one else is posting so there is no other content for me to talk about.

It was probably pretty frustrating for the scumteam - no one else was posting, so they were stuck arguing with each other like idiots. There WAS no one to jump to because no one was posting. That's why their remaining option is to jump on a lurker instead:

I'm actually not 110% on SB since he put in some effort after being prodded and his main mistake is ultimately a misunderstanding [and his refusal to back down from it]. Depending on stuff that happens I may be more inclined to vote someone who is least playing the game.

The problem is that the reasons Raikaria's suddenly understanding of SB's mistake is nonexistent - he was attacking SB for the same mistake a few hours ago...

All you did until that point was defend your awful case based off of an incorrect assumption that other players did not agree with [Both Raitaki and NNR have said they read it otherwise]; and defend yourself from Raitaki's case on you as a result. All you have been doing is defending all game.

And if you actually read my posts you would know that is my beef with you, and your case. I've said this like three times now. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Why has the beef become less relevant? Who knows.

[BT]

As much as it irks me to agree with Dan; I cannot help but sympathise with his inability to find a solid scumread; because aside from some things I dislike about SB's earlygame I don't really have a scumread either; and the SB thing is heavily mitigated by the fact usually whoever I get into a slapfight with D1 ends up being Town v Town. So I'm a little cautious.

I'd say the main problem with this entire "it was a misguided argument thing" point is that Raikaria's conviction behind his argument posts don't make sense with the way he casually chalks it up to town slapfight later. "I don't really have a scumread?" Really? Your D1 posts are way too direct to suggest anything else.

[*quote of Dan claiming vanillized*]

Interesting.

Although 5 seconds is probobly a little awkward seeing timezones and everything.

I can think of reasons why I would vanillize you; but I did no such action.

A pretty interesting line - what were these reasons?

SB's reaction post to Dan's statement makes me a little curious. The fact he's asking for specification on how many people visited makes me think SB probobly did visit ActionDan; although a vanillaiser isn't always a scum move, and he may not have even been the vanillaiser. I guess we'll need to wait for SB to cough it up.

Even more interesting. Raikaria said in the last post that he can imagine reasons for a [town] vanillizer to target Dan, but his first assumption is scum vanillizer by inference from this post: "although a vanillaiser isn't always a scum move"... That doesn't make sense. Town Raikaria wouldn't be suspicios of a vanillizer claim in that case, but his first order of business is to combat that suspicion pre-emptively. And again:

That said; it is at the same time more likely to be a scum PR than a Town PR; depending on the number of PR's in the setup. With scum only having Bi-Nightly kills powerful scum roles would not surprise me.

This time he's flattening the ground for a possible lynch of the claim. Why would you even think this if you thought it was an a-ok town claim?

I mean; I've seen setups where they are town-sided and work as a sort of pusedo-cop. Like Masons except there's no quicktopic; they fail on a scum.

*facepalm*
Raikaria blatantly pre-empting his buddy's claim. That's not the first thing that came to my mind, personally.

[BT]

What I said about apathy doesn't really ring true for Raikaria's D2. Instead, it's more of an exploitative approach - seizing any new reason to lynch the leading wagon or lining up lynches (SB scum -> Dan Scum etc.).

[BT]

Anyway; I think in this situation it is wiser for me to explain why I am not scum; since by doing so shows that BT is the scum. I've gone on long enough about why BT is scum [Everyone else is clear; stuff I said during D3 when I tried to lynch him back then.]

I should be confirmed scum to you, so the fact that you're not clawing through my play right now and instead taking this "y'know, it'be hard to mislynch this guy conventionally" approach is pretty scummy.

Firstly; look back at Day 1 and Day 2. Aside from a few points when I dubt simply due to meta towards the end of Day 1; SB is usually being voted by me or is high in my lynch priorities. Indeed; despite me pushing on Dorian for the majority of Day 2; I say repeatedly that I am happy with lynching SB.

Normally it's scummy of a guy to state willingness to lynch his scumbuddy while shoving some other guy off a cliff.

Speaking of Day 2; remember my reaction to Dorian threatening to self-hammer. If it wasn't for me then; we wouldn't have even lynched SB Day 2.  Which I was a part of.

That's a nice thing to say in hindsight, but if not for Dorian's posts the lynch probably wouldn't have changed anyway.

Then you have my interactions with players who were not SB. I've been stressing for most of this game; Dan is confirmed town. Indeed; Sky going to outright desperation and voting a confirmed townie was why I hammered him. Ultimately it turns out this was an error; but still. Ever since SB was lynched I have also been very supportive of Dorian.

Sounds like my D3.

In addition; it makes no sense for me to have fakeclaimed Roleblocker as scum. Bearing in mind at the time I did so; I was saying 'either Dorian or SB are scum' indicating I expected by Night 3 SB to be dead; and posto N3 ibly Dorian to be alive and semi-clear. With 2 town clears; going into N3 would force the current situation upon me if I was lying about my roleblock.

If I was scum fakeclaiming; I would not have claimed a role which would create such a situation where doubt would naturally be cast upon the existence of my role. I also would not have claimed Roleblocker with Valtz already flipping Jailer. Such an action is silly. As it is; I'm not fakeclaiming; and it makes no sense for me to fakeclaim a Roleblocker either.

We're not privy to all of the facts. We're not privy to the last scum role and we're not privy to what you did or did not think through at the time. Saying this kind of thing, again, in hindsight, doesn't mean much.

[Raikaria]

I should be confirmed scum to you, so the fact that you're not clawing through my play right now and instead taking this "y'know, it'be hard to mislynch this guy conventionally" approach is pretty scummy.

You arwe 100% confirmed scum.

But the thing is I tried to lynch you yesterday. Why repeat myself?

I can prove you are scum two ways:

1: By attacking you; the burden of proof that you are scum
2: By doing something I have not yet done; proving how I am town

Both routes prove you are scum. Since I already did some of 1 earlier; I decided to do some of 2. Also; it takes longer to read to do 1; and as I said when I voted you; I was short for time. It's a lot quicker for me to summise why I am not scum first when I am pressed for time; rather than re-reading and analyzing your behavior to find exactly why you are scum.

It is not just up to me to show how you are scum; but to erase doubt that I am scum.

Even then; I did provide a question as to why you are scum. Your role and lack of a counter-claim.

Last I checked you didn't condemn Sky for trying to attack Dan.

====
As for your last line; that just seems like an attempt to throw out evidence. You don't even try to counter-claim it.

Fact is; Dan claimed Watcher. You claimed Watcher. Yet you never decided to counter-claim Dan. Call him out on his lie. Either that or you believed there were two watchers and a jailer in the same setup; which is pretty foolish.

Why would you not counter-claim Dan's watcher claim at the time? We had nothing to prove he was legitimately vanilla'ed. The only reason I can think of for you not calling Dan out at that time is that you didn't want to stick out your neck. You didn't want to call out a fake-claiming townie with a CC when you are the one fake-claiming.

I indicate to your #128; which is your first post after Dan claims. At no point in this do you say;or even hint; at you being a watcher as well; although it is a legitimate thing to do.

In fact; it's not just me who mentions the possibility of a town vanillaiser; as Dan pointed out yesterday. It's the very first thing you mention in #128.

Now then; excuse me while I go and dig around in your posts to find the final nails to stick into your red coffin.

[Raikaria]

Right; so; I have time; let's start this.

Firstly; BT basically lurks right through the majority of Day 1. This is an exceptionally common practice for scum.  ActionDan did the same; but ActionDan has since been outright confirmed as town. He was active around RVS and it's immediate end; and he appeared towards the end of Day 1... for a lurker lynch. His opinions mentioned in that post are also basically 'I am sheeping Valtz!'.

Although I appreciate that I am townie enough for you to sheep the most-widely read townie at that point on the same opinion. Maybe my constant being town read through the game should help show the fact that maybe everyone was correct about me through the entire game.

#95; by the way

I can't see what SB sees about Vhaltz being pressured off the Dan vote and being disporportionate about Refa/NNR and it makes me think it was a hasty scumread pick-up. Aside from that, I want to know what " Vhaltz using the wrong meta wrt Refa" and "Refa is obvtown" means, but it probably won't help me much even if he does explain, so... That's it. I don't see anything wrong about his responses to Rai, and I kind of like the timing of the obvtown comment, whatever that may mean.

I didn't want to respond to it immediately (because the comment on randvoting Dan gave me pause), but Raitaki's response to my query back in post #40 was pretty roundabout backtrack-y with a side of retroactive defense of the stance under pressure. In English, he didn't really answer my question, instead going "b-but I went after something questionable in RVS" and adding an additional reason while unprovoked. I also don't like his SB case, not in that post and not in the future. While I could probably reconcile it based on just the first post, his explanations later don't really make sense. What exactly did Raitaki find scummy about SB's actions? It's like he started by realizing SB said "bad" and Rai didn't and went off to build a story on how SB thought Rai's case was bad, proceeded to ignore him and then frame him, while the interpretation of "he just found the 'but I have a case' post scummy" is so much more instinctive and easy to understand. So I guess I don't buy it. As usual, I have no idea what Dorian is saying. I also think it's lovely that Raitaki wants opinions from Refa in post #86 but I don't know what his thoughts are on Vhaltz/Refa/maybe others. Maybe he's just not interested. Hmm, I didn't think my opinion here was that strong, so I'll consider switching wagons from NNR.

Refa annoys me because his content post was filled with "stuff", in that I don't know how to weigh his opinions and where in particular they would have originated from. It's kind of like he just summarized most of what has been going on with a player, proceeded to the next player and then ##voted. And I'm pretty sure it's his writing style. I don't know what to think here, but I thought it was interesting he thought Vhaltz had no opinion on the active posters when Vhaltz clearly said things about Raikaria and SB.

Defending SB; yet calls DB a neutral read in his next post.

Worth mentioning NNR's 105 points out something about the tone in BT's posts he disliked a lot and he felt was a scumtell. NNR didn't do much; but NNR *was* town.

I'll admit I swapped from SB to NNR; but at the time it did not look like SB was getting lynched [The wagon had stopped; and I liked BT's posts at the time saying 'SB hasn't done much wrong'.] So I swapped to NNR. Also worry about general D1 meta got to me. I've been central in a few too many town v town slapfights in MotK. Figures the one time I get cold feet on the issue; I'm slapping scum. This is my biggest regret this game. I admit this looks bad now. I am fully aware of that. I made a judgement at the time and it was wrong.

BT is so much less wordy than I remember him, everything that he's posted is kind of k but I'm worried about the content that I'm not seeing. BT not actually playing the game for extended periods of time is weird and his "I got complacent with MotK lurker meta" may be an excuse to not actively prod people for content as much but not for not playing the game himself.

Opinion of a very townie townie on BT's D1; and BT's regular behavior in comparison. According to Valtz; BT is not acting like normal. When players act differently; it is often a scumtell. I'm not very good at noticeing when players play differently unless they have a very specific playstyle; like Serela's waffleing. I can't tell when BT is acting different; but I trust Valtz's call here enough to use it to help show BT is scum.

===

Day 2:

First thing is #128; which as I mentioned before; in hindsight; is VERY suspect for BT not calling out Dan's watcher claim.

Looking at the other players, BT is looking better than when he was Townest, it feels like he's posting now to catch scum rather than just because he needs to get the posts out there, even if his early activity levels were fairly similar. Raikaria is a bit better on the reread too and I think I was getting too emotionally charged and it screwed with my judgement, but if he isn't scum I'm not sure who else would be?

...
@BT, scum could've been given a Strongman kill or something to that effect, or have simply shot Vhaltz anyway and taken a risk that the doc would wifom away from Vhaltz (which I probably would've done had I been in the doc's shoes.) If you think Raitaki and I are buddies, do you think he's deliberately pushed me almost exclusively throughout D1 when in Serela's game he was perfectly capable of spending his time murdering townies instead? Considering the amount of hate I got at the time it would've been a risky move to do so too unless he really wanted to be a Serial Killer?

First paragraph here is SB acting buddy-buddy to BT; although the same admittedly could be said of me.

However; the second paragraph is suspect. SB was scum. He is talking about potential scum roles to you; BT.

And allow me to quote MafiaWiki:

Strongman is a role modifier that signifies that any kills performed by this player cannot be blocked by any means - neither by Bulletproof, nor by Doctor or other protective roles, nor by Roleblocks.

Ladies and Gentleman; we have DAMNING evidence here. My role failed because BT has [at least one] strongman kill.

With myself and Valtz's roles in the game; the possibility of there being at least a one-shot strongman is very high. My role failed last night. SB talks about a mafia strongman. SB was scum. Put the pieces of the puzzle together and what do you get?

===

More coming. I need to clear my head after noticeing this before I move on; and I feel I need to get this last point out there ASAP.

[Raikaria]

Just to add to and summise the above; bringing this new point and my earlier points together:

SB suggests scum has a strongman kill to BT specifically.
BT did not counter-claim Watcher when Dan claimed Watcher. [Afraid to stick out his neck?]
BT's Watcher/Voyeur has failed to see ANYTHING all game.
My role failed on BT last night. A strongman kill cannot be roleblocked.

I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that BT is lying about his role.

I could stop looking here; but I won't. Gimme a half hour to clear my head and I'll re-start from where I left off. I got a few things I want to check anyway; like the news and how we're doing in the CW Games.

[Raikaria]

BT is one of the last [The last?] to claim as well. He also posted quite a bit after the massclaim started yet before be claimed.

[Massclaim was called at 161; BT posted at #175; but only claimed at #181]

Claiming last allows BT to tailor his claim to the other claims; and since no-one else claimed roleblocked he was free to claim that Valtz blocked him. This may or may not be the case; he might have blocked a vanilla; but hewas safe using Valtz's role to back up his own claim since no-one else had claimed roleblocked.

Worth noting when I claimed SB attacked it.

Day 3 is generally a 1v1 mess; and I don't see much merit in looking at a 1v1 where both are attempting to get the other lynched and survive. There's not any real scumhunting Day 3.

[Raikaria]

I'm done now. I guess I might give another re-read later; and specifically look at SB as well to try and see if there's anything else he said that might prove scum BT beyond a doubt.

[ActionDan]

O boy.  walls. many walls.

Well I guess I can admit now that I see both sides here wrt play + role interaction. 

So I'm going to read rather carefully now,

[BT]

Raikaria would have had a point in making a fuss out of the watcher "CC" if I were trying to excuse it RIGHT NOW, retroactively, but I explained it back then too. Raikaria also ignores my explanation to reason that I just didn't want to stick my neck, which is not only dismissal, but also a slip! I was under no obligation to "fakeclaim" watcher/voyeur. I wouldn't want to "stick my neck out" only in the case where I actually had the role in question. I have the role in question because I'm town. Raikaria knows I have the role in question because he's scum.

He was active around RVS and it's immediate end; and he appeared towards the end of Day 1... for a lurker lynch. His opinions mentioned in that post are also basically 'I am sheeping Valtz!'.

Dan can go factcheck this right now and see how misreppy you are here.

Other parts of the post have Raikaria quoting dead townies's take on my play. Okay? Vhaltz hasn't played with me in over a year.

As for the watcher claim, why would I CC Dan? I happened to think he was town, and it wasn't only because of my weird setup reasons. The post where he outed his results also had an effect, as well as his D1 post. I had no reason to "CC" him when I didn't believe it was a CC and I didn't believe he was scum.

Ladies and Gentleman; we have DAMNING evidence here. My role failed because BT has [at least one] strongman kill.

"Ladies and gentlemen", no. If scum had a strongman shot, they would have used it on Vhaltz. Having two strongman shots where their kills would be on N1 and N3 in a game that would get to LYLO on D4 or D5 is... uh... stupid? It completely nullifies Vhaltz's role and, in theory, yours.

It's hilarious that Raikaria sees SB, BT and strongman at one place and immediately hinges to it as evidence. How exactly? Why would SB talk to me about that and how does it in any way incriminate me? Even better when you call it SB being "buddy buddy" with me. Dude, he was answering to the case I had up against him.

Raikaria ignores the stated reason why I claimed late - because I wasn't even sure I wanted to claim my role in fear of it being offed.

Day 3 is generally a 1v1 mess; and I don't see much merit in looking at a 1v1 where both are attempting to get the other lynched and survive. There's not any real scumhunting Day 3.

And this is baloney.

[BT]

Not only is it baloney, but there's also the fact that I didn't have to go head-to-head against Sky. I could have lynched you, and in hindsight, I should have. Like, as town. As scum, I HAD to, for the same reason Scum Sky had to. (Sorry again!)

[BT]

I'll go ahead and do role-y stuff to shut up that specific venue. It's annoying.

N1

Vhaltz [Jailor]: BT
BT [Watcher]: Vhaltz

SB [Vanillizer]: ActionDan
Raikaria []: Kill Vhaltz?

N2

BT [Voyeur]: BT
Raikaria []:

N3

BT [Watcher]: ActionDan
Raikaria []: Kill Dorian?

I don't know if scum are allowed to kill and act. Is it in the rules? Anyway, assuming Dan acts in daytime, it's pretty easy to see that there aren't that many roles to catch on the act in the first place. It's funny you're even arguing this in the first place when my claim is leagues more believable than yours. (If it isn't, I'd like Dan to tell me why. No, really, I'm not seeing it.)

[BT]

Hell, if I really wanted to "make my role useful" I could have faked targeting Dorian at night. How is this even a thing?

[Mitsuki]

You totally need a Votecount (1)

BT:  Raikaria (L-1!)
Raikaria: BT (L-1!)

Not voting: ActionDan
You have 54 hours left in this phase!

[BigBangMeteor]

The mafia can kill and act during the same phase.

[Raikaria]

Hell, if I really wanted to "make my role useful" I could have faked targeting Dorian at night. How is this even a thing?

When you're not a watcher you can claim whatever you want. It doesn't matter; our claims would naturally cancel each other's out.

[ActionDan]

read up to page 8.

more to go tomorrow.

much whirling is being done in my head.

[Raikaria]

Basically a prod-dodge. I don't have much else to say unless BT says something stupid or Dan makes a decision or has a question.

[BT]

I do think I can muster up more things to say, but the important things are probably out there and I'm doing something else atm.

[Raikaria]

I'm sure I can muster up more things to say if I utterly had to as well; but it's a well known fact that I am awful at getting my point across clearly.

Just waiting for the Man of Action. It's an important decision; so he can take as long as he wants... within the deadline; of course.

Although I guess technically we could go into D5.

[ActionDan]

I'm working all day so hopefully I can reach a decision tonight.  I have no questions to ask just yet