Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -13F

[Kaitani]

I had Kaguya as a Sorceress in my first game, didn't really have much use for her other than the +10% damage when at full HP (which was always the case until she died...). Her own moveset is decent enough to not have to look into subclasses for more options, so I guess Transcendent isn't a bad option either, or just Monk for the lowered ATB cost of spell cards.


So I setup my party for last boss farm mode, finishing the fight with two Starbow Breaks. In total it takes just under 1,5 minutes to kill it again (ending dialogue) for 2 gems. Being a math freak, I had to calculate how long it would take to max out all characters' gem buffs. For the sake of simplicity some aspects had to be ignored: uneven gem drops, training manual drops, gems found as drops before this and some characters not wanting certain gems (MAG gems for Yuugi):

8 types of gems for 48 characters with 10 for each = 3840 gems
2 gems drop in each fight = 1920 fights
1,5 minutes per fight = 2880 minutes = exactly 48 hours

Math is so depressing sometimes, isn't it? 

[DarkAtma]

The point where you just grind the final boss is the point where you start hacking them in with cheat engine, grinding the boss in 2 attacks just for gems just sounds like a timesink to me, i would just.....cheat them like i did with the tomes, And about the subclasses these are the ones i Never/Barely used

Guardian
Warrior
Healer
Sorcerer
Hexer (Just for certain bosses weak to debuffs)
Toxicologist (I only used it on great "C")

My party setup has always been "Buff the Offense and Wreck the Hell out of the boss,Retreat,survive and repeat" therefore most of my semi-tanks are enchancer (Reimu,Sakuya,Mokou) subclass while meiling is herbalist because she is always out

Do the trascendent buffs REALLY make that of a difference? Currently I got Remilia,Utsuho and kasen has trascendent, Was thinking of changing to Strategist Remilia,Magician Utsuho to stay more in order to spam giga flare, and Monk Kasen for speed/Spellcard delay, But thats only if Trascendent doesnt really make that much difference in the character

[Yookie]

Subclasses are mostly for niche things or to give you things you need. Healer for example is one of the latter kind since its single target Heal is actually quite potent and useful on fast characters. Aya being a good user of that.

Sorcerer, Warrior & Toxicologist are nice to fill up elemental attacks for characters that rely on only one. I had Yuyuko as Sorcerer since it also strengthens Row attacks. Marisa makes good use of Toxicologist both with Sheer Force and it giving her access to elements beyond Mystic.
Iku can be focused on an auto-attacking spec with Sorcerer and deals good, consistent damage like that.

Hexer can be good on characters that don't have a specific need for subclasses but are weak to debuffs if you have Hina in your party. It does give +40 resist, which is something that shouldn't be underestimated. (Btw: 120 resist is about enough to completely resist Hina's debuffs on your party.)

Guardian is kinda meh. Tanky characters can't make proper use of its offensive skills and are better off with other subclasses that give them party-wide utility. Designated tanks also usually have their own method of buffing their defense (Tenshi, Hina).

[Ghaleon]

Yeah characters like kaggy/patchy dont really benefit from subclasses much imo. They bave a good elemental spread already so sorcerer isnt great, and they are slow and their good mag is of no importance to utility uses.

Personally i think tanks make much better use from guardian than elemental magic nukes can use whatever subclass. If only there was a monk type for casters too.

Guardian isnt about shield bash so much as a self def buff, higher aggro, taking less damage... I think they get plenty imo.

[jaxter0987]

The point where you just grind the final boss is the point where you start hacking them in with cheat engine, grinding the boss in 2 attacks just for gems just sounds like a timesink to me, i would just.....cheat them like i did with the tomes.

Nope I would completely refuse to hack in the gems / tomes. If you wanted the benefits of the stat gems outside of what you'd earn in a normal game, you need to work for them. And while its a time sink, its a game. Games are supposed to be enjoyable time sinks. Don't like grinding? Well that's a LoT game for you.

Kaguya got Sorcerer for both Aspiration Surge and Penetrator (You don't always want to target every enemy in the fight) as well as Mind Assault and Mind and Body as One.
And people seem to keep overlooking / ignoring this but the passives from just having the subclass is great for the characters (Sorcerer giving MP, TP, Magic and Mind, almost everything that Kaguya wants).

I've never used Guardian, Hexer, or Toxicologist. Never needed the ailments or debuffs and Guardian is just completely meh in my eyes (They don't have higher aggro by the way Ghaleon).

Patchy is probably the worse case of "doesn't really benefit from subclasses". It has to be Sorcerer or Gambler for her since she mainly wants passive subclass boosts rather than the spellcards they might provide.

[Aminosa]

Warrior Mystia FTW. Seriously, she wrecks stuff.

I can say from personal experience that Transcendant helps Kaguya quite a bit.

When I used Patchy, I didn't give her a subclass, or anyone else since that was a no subclass run, I did use SDM along with Remilia and Sakuya (no Meiling or Flandre). After a first aid kit and sub equips that increase primarily hp, mag and mind, I found Patchy to be quite useful and could even take a minor physical hit while dealing all around solid damage. But I also used Sanae in that run so Patchy did get buffed often and I did constantly skill reset Patchy to max level the spell I'd be using. Did the same for Youmu but with less satisfying results.

[Kaitani]

Well my challenge attempt against the enhanced bosses didn't start out too well: after some planning I decided that the team to go after Demonic Eye's Shadow would be Mokou, Hina, Keine and Alice. I proceeded to lower my level to 114 to match the challenge level, entered the fight, and got totally wrecked. I could barely damage the boss and it was one-shotting Mokou with it's normal attacks. So I decided to drop the challenge part of this enhanced boss run and just stick to my real levels.
2nd attempt, now with an average level of 178, I was just about able to keep up with the boss's damage (Mokou as healer, Keine healing as enchanter), while Alice was barely able to kill the adds before they got their turn. All in all it was quite an intense fight, interesting to see if my 11 other parties will be as successful.

[DarkAtma]

Okay, Maybe with this setup i can farm gems with a lv98 average party, 3 minutes top for 2 gems (6 party members lv1 of course)

-Front row:Aya,Meiling,Sakuya,Flandre
-Divine grandson advent on sakuya,Sakuya Uses Art Of Battlemage on flandre (Better if it procs several times)
-Flandre uses starbow Break
-Aya uses divine grandson on flandre for second starbow break (Maybe Meiling can fit a awakening herb between) and boss is defeated, reward: 2 gems

I should get about 60 gems per hour if i keep doing it  :3

EDIT: It drops one random gem and a manual right? Already got that twice in a row,My aya messes the sequence abit has she got 1715 speed, courtesy of 3 costume ninja equipped on her, First kill was starbow break genji glove dealing 3.5M damage

 Now Sequence goes like this
-Aya starts with 20,000 ATB BAR
-Divine grandson on sakuya for Battlemage buff on flandre
-Aya turn again and does the same action, if Battlemage buff triggered several times, switch her for remilia SDM bonus
-Flandre starbows breaks and either boss dies or is severely crippled
-Battle Over

Switched meiling from herbalist to strategist, to have a 10% damage boost on flandre (and meiling wasnt taking a turn before boss died anyways)

[ZXNova]

@ Kaitani Well it's not like every character needs 8 of every type of gem. Certain characters (Byakuren) can go with every gem, but every other character does need that every gem. It's pointless to use gems on super squishy characters (Chen, Flandre), Not every character uses both stats (except composite character, and Warrior Yuuka) and some gems would be a waste on certain characters (fighter gems for flandre, she has gargantuan attack anyway). The gems I believe everyone can make good use of is agility gems and magic gems. Every other gem is subject to the dependent character. Maybe I could do a calculation for each character. :O

@ DarkAtma

Warrior is a good class. The characters who want Warrior are those bulky attacker characters. Another type of character who would want Warrior is a character who really needs other elements to attack with. Meiling makes very good use of Warrior for instance. Another character who does oddly good with Warrior, and I mentioned before, Yuuka. Her base atk is higher than her magic. So she can utilize warrior subclass to be a mixed attacker. Isn't that great?

Healer is also a pretty good class. It's for fast characters and or tanky characters with innate heals. (Komachi, Mokou) Healer Komachi works wonders. She can heal your secondary tank and heal herself when she's nuked. Although imo, Herbalist Komachi is better.

Hexer depends. I know for certain the best hexer characters are characters with sheer force and/or Hina/Reisen.

Guardian is a meh class. I actually think this is the subclass with the least use. Maybe you could put it on an bulky attacker character who only really has offensive skills (Momiji) so the subclass will give her some good defensive potential as well. Though in all honesty I still think it'd be a waste.

Transcendent is a very good subclass for certain characters. Kasen, Utsuho, and Nitori for example make very good use out of the transcendent class. Basically transcendent is for people who WANT stay out and fight often because they have an ability that requires staying out. It's also for people who have very good attack formulas, but don't have particularly nice stats. (Nitori). Kasen and Utsuho have fighting spirit, Utsuho and Nitori has heating up, etc.

@ Yookie, From my exp 60 debuff resist is enough to basically ignore all of Hina's debuffs. Maybe it's just that I'm lucky I guess.

[qazmlpok]

Reading assembly when you can't sleep is fun.

Ailments:
X - 10-19
△ - 20-29?
― - 30-49
○ - 50-74
◎ - 75-99
★ - 100+

9 or below should be a dark red X, but I honestly can't figure out how to read this code to get that.
Also, bosses have 1000 Dth resistance. Probably all of them (except malignut+shadow and any flunkies), but I only checked a few.

(dark red?) X - 0-33
X - 34-65
△ - 66-99
― - 100-139
○ - 140-199
◎ - 200-299
★ - 300+

I'm not sure anything even has below 34 affinity. Flandre has 50 cold and spirit resistance, for example. I can't think of anything that'd be weaker to an element than her.

[Axel Ryman]

Reading assembly when you can't sleep is fun.

Ailments:
X - 10-19
△ - 20-29?
― - 30-49
○ - 50-74
◎ - 75-99
★ - 100+

9 or below should be a dark red X, but I honestly can't figure out how to read this code to get that.
Also, bosses have 1000 Dth resistance. Probably all of them (except malignut+shadow and any flunkies), but I only checked a few.

(dark red?) X - 0-33
X - 34-65
△ - 66-99
― - 100-139
○ - 140-199
◎ - 200-299
★ - 300+

I'm not sure anything even has below 34 affinity. Flandre has 50 cold and spirit resistance, for example. I can't think of anything that'd be weaker to an element than her.

Sakuya actually has a ◎ for Death.


I'm now actually curious on how much the FOE on Floor 3 has considering I could get Death Procs on a number of other FOEs with Komachi but not him.



If 1000 is the exact amount though for a number of bosses, including the final boss, I think I can figure out how much Reisen's skill reduces it from there then.

[jaxter0987]

Reading assembly when you can't sleep is fun.

Ailments:
X - 10-19
△ - 20-29?
― - 30-49
○ - 50-74
◎ - 75-99
★ - 100+

9 or below should be a dark red X, but I honestly can't figure out how to read this code to get that.
Also, bosses have 1000 Dth resistance. Probably all of them (except malignut+shadow and any flunkies), but I only checked a few.

(dark red?) X - 0-33
X - 34-65
△ - 66-99
― - 100-139
○ - 140-199
◎ - 200-299
★ - 300+

I'm not sure anything even has below 34 affinity. Flandre has 50 cold and spirit resistance, for example. I can't think of anything that'd be weaker to an element than her.

Are you confident in the values you gathered? I'm considering putting them in the wiki some how when I wake up tomorrow.

[Yookie]

I'm not sure anything even has below 34 affinity. Flandre has 50 cold and spirit resistance, for example. I can't think of anything that'd be weaker to an element than her.

Cirno has 24 Fire resist base, it really doesn't get lower than that though.

@ Yookie, From my exp 60 debuff resist is enough to basically ignore all of Hina's debuffs. Maybe it's just that I'm lucky I guess.

Hina actually managed to debuff Rumia for me once, so maybe I got unlucky several times. And even people with ~120 resist sometimes got hit. Not badly, but still.

[qazmlpok]

Sakuya actually has a ◎ for Death.

She's totally a flunky

Cirno has 24 Fire resist base, it really doesn't get lower than that though.

Yeah, but she's not a boss. The symbols are just for enemies you fight.

Are you confident in the values you gathered? I'm considering putting them in the wiki some how when I wake up tomorrow.

Unless I'm misreading assembly, completely positive. There is the issue that I can't figure out how the dark red ailment resistance works (trying to follow the jumps give me "Star" for 0 resistance, which is obviously not right). But other than that, this is directly from the game's code, and not the result of testing. Exact values I gave, e.g. Flandre's exact cold resistance, I'm also positive on. I did not check every single boss enemy with Star death res, so I can't say with certainty that they're all 1000, but they probably are.

Anyway the reason I was looking into this was because I might try and write a program to interpret the assembly and create a monster database, like SpecialDisk's reference. But only if the upcoming expansion doesn't do it for us.

Also - the game does NOT allow for arbitrary levels. If you have a kedama at levels 1, 3, and 10 (or whatever it is), it's because 3peso manually created stats for those exact levels.

[Serela]

(trying to follow the jumps give me "Star" for 0 resistance, which is obviously not right

The multiplication by 0 might just null out the damage entirely or turn it into a heal or something? Although it's not very relevant.

One of the wasp bosses related to Wriggle has non-perfect dth resist. I think I recall people making Reisen's ability work on dth'ing Yuyuko but that might have been a different boss.

Also - the game does NOT allow for arbitrary levels.

Hmm. The infinite dungeon they talked about made me imagine the levels were generated. Maybe they'll make a set of enemies with properly scaling levels purely for that dungeon, then?

[DarkAtma]

Excuse the newbie question, but assuming we get more characters on the plus disk, how the game will calculate how much accumulated exp they got if they were never there to get any at all?  :V In other news, 300 more kills for the last achievement

[qazmlpok]

The multiplication by 0 might just null out the damage entirely or turn it into a heal or something? Although it's not very relevant.

One of the wasp bosses related to Wriggle has non-perfect dth resist. I think I recall people making Reisen's ability work on dth'ing Yuyuko but that might have been a different boss.
Hmm. The infinite dungeon they talked about made me imagine the levels were generated. Maybe they'll make a set of enemies with properly scaling levels purely for that dungeon, then?

Oh, they mentioned an ID? I thought that was pure speculation from here. "Wouldn't it be awesome if..."
It's possible he'll implement it, but the current system is something like

Code: [Select]

CreateMonster(monid, instance) {
    Name = monsters[monid];
    if (instance == 1) {
        Lv = 4
        HP = 100
        ATK = 60 ......
   } else {
        Lv = 10
        HP = 400
        ATK = 100 ......
    }
    FirRes = 200 ....
    PsnRes = 10 ....
With more ifs/else ifs if there's multiple possible levels.

ok I was reading the assembly wrong. The red X makes perfect sense. I was just starting in the middle of an if-else chain. Whoops.

[Yookie]

It will most likely work like with all the other characters that joined you on the way:
They get the amount of experience they would have earned had they been the entire time sitting around in the human village. (That is how it works, isn't it?)
Either way, it would be kinda impractical not to do it like with the others. The situation is the same after all.

[DarkAtma]

Now i am itching to take another fragile speedster/DPS dealer to my team, However in am torn out on which one to pick between chen Or mystia

Chen because she can just boost herself and squeeze has many skills as possible before retreating (was thinking full attack+warrior/monk)
Mystia because its abit more durable than chen, same combo has above

Just checked nitori skillset and saw Overheat+maintenance, i am wondering if she can outdo flandre in a prolonged boss battle >_>

[Serela]

Nitori can do comparable damage to Flan when the boss isn't weak to Flan's stuff, and the big selling point... give her your best gear and Nitori will tank it out like a boss whilst doing that damage. Wheras you're lucky if Flan doesn't die from the boss kinda scratching her a little, even if it's from one of her favored elements. (transcendent helps nitori a -lot-, and Cooling Down doesn't seem to actually require full hp to work)

Chen -really- needs investment in her comparatively low attack stat to help get through the enemy's defense enough to still deal worthwhile damage. Unfortunately, the abundance of high-defense bosses later in the game makes things rather tough for her, but if you're using stuff like Yakumo team and/or def debuffs she might still work out pretty well!

Warrior probably works best if you do try her out, as she can use several of it's more situational passives, especially row attack strengthening.

Mystia takes less dedication to get functional. I can't comment much past that since I didn't use her. Instant Attack is pretty neat though, which they both possess. Also Mystia's attacks look really cool visually.

[ZXNova]

I don't think warrior would be good for Chen honestly. The only real thing I can see her getting a warrior benefit from is the atk buff from passive and 10% damage at full hp. Otherwise, it seems kind of wasted. I believe the best class for Chen is Gambler. Give her some fighter, magic, and agility gems (she really needs em, I'm serious about that) and she'll be able to do some pretty good damage. Put gambler Chen with the Yakumo family and Chen will just destroy thing.

[Kirin no Sora]

Chen -really- needs investment in her comparatively low attack stat to help get through the enemy's defense enough to still deal worthwhile damage. Unfortunately, the abundance of high-defense bosses later in the game makes things rather tough for her, but if you're using stuff like Yakumo team and/or def debuffs she might still work out pretty well!

And this is why I'm wondering why the developers didn't just give her Piercing Attack, since her DPS won't have to suffer so much if some of it can tear through regardless of the enemy's defences.

As for what Chen could use for a subclass, as she is now, I would actually suggest Monk, due to the spellcards that it grants, rather than the skills. I can understand why the Warrior skillset can help Chen out, and also why the Gambler's skillset would look attractive once you actually get that subclass unlocked, so...

As a side note, has anyone tried the Warrior or Monk subclasses on Komachi? The row strengthening skill from the former would help power up her Cold element spell, and she would gain access to the Fire element through Explosive Flame Sword. The latter would give her Wind(buffs speed) and Nature(Pierces defence) attacks to work with, and Body Revitalization has a 4% HP regen which can only help Komachi in restoring her HP alongside her Regeneration skill.

Anyways, on a separate note, I would think that Guardian would be more useful if the following was added to it...

1. The passive that grants a DEF Buff would also give a MND Buff as well.
2. The passive that reduces the time used up by using the Focus command was granted a increase in Max Level, so that the timebar would be set to 8000 instead of 7000.

As it stands now, I believe that Guardian was indeed built with Momiji in mind, since she can counter the drop in speed with Accelerate, and her Eyes that Perceive Reality skill can serve for offence and defence by negating the enemy's buffs. Add to that her accuracy increasing skill, and it's clear that the subclass was meant for her. Plus, the whole "Momiji has a shield" sort of thing does seem to help thematically speaking...

[Serela]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Gambler. That'd probably be the best option. Warrior is still actually a pretty good one, though, partially since gambler is late; Chen can make use of basically all of it's skills, and the passive ATK selfbuffing is pretty much the only buff she needs. Monk's weaker boost-all isn't necessary when her defenses are hopeless.

Chen's base attack is not very good, so using monk for the attacks it gives isn't really all that great. She's fast but when she isn't using her own skills, she's not -that- fast.

although yeah gambler is just the end-all-be-all class for glass cannons (and worth considering even for non-glass attackers if they have spare mp)

Guardian is an interesting choice for people with Grand Incantation (Reimu/Patch/Maribel) but I'm not sure if it's a good one.

Everyone seems to use Komachi as a tank with passive regen, and Healer is a much better tank subclass than Monk, and she'd probably want all the HP level dumping even if her defenses are hopeless. Now, if you were using an offensive Komachi... then it might be pretty great!

[DarkAtma]

Gonna test gambler chen, I turned Patchy And Kaguya into gamblers, lets see how that turns out, Its ATK Aya worth considering or just a speed buffer machine?, also gave me the idea of swapping HP sakuya with SPD sakuya and put 3 ninja outfits on her, she will just pop and buff with luna dial/battlemage and then switch away like aya pretty much does

[jaxter0987]

Someone made a template on the wiki to easily display bosses' Elemental Affinities and Ailment Resistances awhile back but I can't figure out how to get to the template page. The best place to put the values qazmlpok gathered would be in the gameplay page except I lack the symbol images to put them there. Can someone more versed in the wiki's inner workings direct me to the template page / tell me how to reach it?

Edit: Never mind found it. I thought the symbols on the template were just images but they were actually character symbols. That makes everything easier.
Edit2: And done. I'm not really satisfied with how I formatted the info in the gameplay page but I couldn't come up with a better way to organize it visually.

[Ghaleon]

I honestly cant imagine aya as anything but healer. Yeah her attack is actually pretty good, and attack type subclasses would benefit that style. But as a healer she can almost instantly heal anyone when needed, and her atk is high enough that her heal is actually big, and she can speed buff OR insta gauge fill someone. You can spend her level up bonuses on speed even if you wanted to (not saying should but its definately more viable on that spec than anyone else), and STILL have something useful for her to do on every turn. Plus her evade is good enough to not take as much damage and require her own healing often, but she generally has enough defenses to survive a good hit should she take one (and certainly be fast enough to heal herself before a 2nd).

Aya got one of the largest buffs from lot1-2 imo.

[ZXNova]

Gambler Kaguya might not be the best idea, although not a bad one. Kaguya does have a pretty high mana pool, but she also has high mana costs, so uh... magic gems. And maybe a Yogurt Doll or someother MP increasing item. You'll really need it.

And Aya being a main attack, she doesn't really have quite enough damage for it. She's very good at clearing mobs though. That's one thing for sure I know.

Gambler Patchy sounds like it would oddly work.

[Ghaleon]

I personally like using patchy's mnd to tank hits from casters myself though, so gambler patchy not really for me.

[qazmlpok]

I honestly cant imagine aya as anything but healer.

I made her a magician. Magic Circuit is nice, plus it gives her extra MP for spd/advent

[Kaitani]

I made her a magician. Magic Circuit is nice, plus it gives her extra MP for spd/advent

I made Aya Enchanter in my enhanced boss run, for some speedy buffing of Flandre. Those two joined up with Rinnosuke (herbalist) and Yuyuko (sorceress) to take down Magatama of Darkness. This fight clearly showed me the importance of buffs when you're dealing with high defense enemies:
I had no party-wide damage boosts available (no dark damage boost, no enemy type boost, no strategist boost etc.)
Flandre with 50k attack, no buffs -> Starbow Break -> 0 damage
Add 36% boost from Herb of Awakening -> 100k damage
Add 30% ATK boost -> 200k damage
Add 100% ATK boost -> 1,2 million damage

I think it's quite likely that Genji Glove procced on that last hit, but regardless the increase in damage is insane. It also explains why Yuyuko wasn't able to do any damage even with her spell card that partly ignores MND.

Anyways, with Magatama gone I only have Mirror and a scary beast with an umbrella left to beat. Former will have the dream team of Byakuren, Reimu and Shikieiki (with Yuugi) and the latter will be Yakumo clan (with Kasen).