UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.

[Helepolis]

Note: This thread started originally as simply a question about SanaeB as I thought it was bugged. But it turned into a shottype discussion. So upon Baity's call threadname is changed


In non focussed mode her main bullets deal rapid damage to boss HP. When you go focussed mode the damage drops dramatically. And I mean really dramatically. Isn't the focussing of the exploding frogs supose to destroy bosses?

I don't get it.

[?q]

SanaeB is a horrible type outside score runs so yeah

Two minutes of experimentation suggest that SanaeB only fires half as many frogs while focused.

[Third Eye Lem]

I'm reminded of MarisaA from SA and EoSD/PCB; Brutal when unfocused. I'll have to give it a try sometime.

[Alfred F. Jones]

Two minutes of experimentation suggest that SanaeB only fires half as many frogs while focused.

... you're not serious, are you?

Because oh god maybe I need to switch from SanaeB if this is true.

[Drake]

Both fire frogs at a rate of one frog per five normal shots. Focused is faster, but it does not fire frogs at a faster rate. However, unfocused fires twice as many frogs. Therefore MAJOR SHOTGUNNING POWER

[Alfred F. Jones]

So basically SanaB is really good if you don't get hit.

:|

[?q]

Two minutes of experimentation suggest that SanaeB only fires half as many frogs while focused.

... you're not serious, are you?

Because oh god maybe I need to switch from SanaeB if this is true.

I was being quite serious, as well as with the struck-out part.  In exchange for the most distracting shot type in the game and somewhat mediocre damage you get the easiest time with the bright blue orb's zombie fairies, nice spread for taking out enemies that form lines or overlap, and a bomb that's okay for damage but great for scoring.

That said, I tried it a few more times and focused mode seems to consistently do at most as much damage unfocused, and a bit of the time less, but not more.  Things with larger hitboxes (i.e. UFOs) are much more affected by the splash damage and may be exceptions.  And to answer the next question, Byakuren's giant flower fantastica isn't a giant hitbox like Yuyuko's fan; however, I think she has a larger-than-normal hitbox anyway.

These are just my amateur tests, though, and I'd wait for Mefidex to give something official.

[Hawk]

I can't wait for the official word, but, based on my experiences:

Between 1 and 3 power: shotgunning unfocused does the most damage.
4 power: shotgunning focused does the highest rate of non-bomb damage in the game.  SanaeB is the new MarisaB.  Shotgunning involves getting all 4 frogs hitting, which requires getting very close to the boss.

Long-range, against bosses, you always want to be focused.  It's the same reason Patch-Fire exists for SA MarisaB.

I'm pretty sure SanaeB's normal shots (amulets?) do more damage unfocused.  For this reason, killing large fairies should almost always be done unfocused, since large fairies' hitboxes aren't large enough to hit with both focused frogs.

I'll be interested to see who wins out in the end for score runs, SanaeB or MarisaA.  SanaeB is better in pretty much every way, but MarisaA's graze hitbox is substantially larger, and piercing's pretty awesome.

[?q]

I'll be interested to see who wins out in the end for score runs, SanaeB or MarisaA.  SanaeB is better in pretty much every way, but MarisaA's graze hitbox is substantially larger, and piercing's pretty awesome.

I think it would come down to bombing for Graze farming, which only SanaeB can do.  I think it would be easier than trying to find safespots in Syou's nonspells.

So close to being better than ReimuA only to be turned away because of the animated options - isn't it sad, MarisA?

[Ghaleon]

Wait, Sanae-B's nuke bomb is "ok" for damage? I thought it was crazy powerful.

[?q]

Wait, Sanae-B's nuke bomb is "ok" for damage? I thought it was crazy powerful.

That depends on how close you are to the boss when you set the bomb.
If you aren't right on top of the enemy it's about as good as anyone else's.

[Zengar Zombolt]

So to get the most optimal damage with SanaeB, you have to shotgun the enemy while unfocused.
YEEEAAAAH

[Slaves]

well i cleared Nazrin's first card in about 3 seconds with Sanae B

so yeah

[Ghaleon]

So general consensus is that the best character is Sanae-B or Marissa A? Funny, those are the two I've completed the game with so far, I haven't even tried the others yet.

Piercing seems especially important in this iteration of touhou imo with all the enemies, not to mention it really helps shooting down UFOs after you load them up with powerups. I struggle to down them sometimes as sanae due to enemies stacking up too much underneath. ARGH.

I find Marissa A is absolutely terrible compared to Sanae at the extra boss though. Just seems like despite piercing, she doesn't shoot down ufos ever. It's especially bad for the green ufo spellcard, that one is really tough if you don't shoot down any.

[?q]

So general consensus is that the best character is Sanae-B or Marisa A?

Basically.

MarisA - Newfangled high-damage low-range with piercing.  Only real weakness vs. ReimuA is that her options glow as much as the bullets do, which is not welcome against Syou and Byakuren.
ReimuA - Old-fashioned high-damage low-range.

SanaeB - Best when shotgunning unfocused; otherwise mediocre damage.  Decent spread regardless of focus; frogs are annoying and distracting.  Bomb's decency depends on how close you are to the boss when using it (see part about shotgunning again).
MarisaB - Best when shotgunning focused.  I'm really not sure what to make of her backward-firing unfocused shots.  Bomb is inexcusably bad; the worst in the game.  But HAY EVERYONE YOU GOT MIMA BACK sorta

ReimuB - Homing amulets are a little weaker than SanAe's snakes, but they hit much more often for more power overall.  Also, homing amulets hit more enemies at different angles and distances than SanAe's snakes (for instance, Stage 5 and Syou's green bar card).  Bomb is actually pretty decent overall.
SanAe - Snakes are cool and reliably hit enemies to the side provided they match certain criteria.  Mediocre damage and bomb overall.

That's how I'd rate them according to utility.  Which utility is best is up to you.

[Reprosa]

MarisaB is so, so bad. But it's great that there's a decent balance between characters, and between spread types and power types.

It's absolutely fantastic that Marisa's laser penetration is actually useful for more than a single boss.

[?q]

MarisaB is so, so bad. But it's great that there's a decent balance between characters, and between spread types and power types.

She's not terrible like some of SA's shot types.  It's maybe slightly more damage than MarisA puts out, but over a wider spread.

With that said, her bomb is pathetic beyond words.  SanAe laughs at her.

[Hawk]

She's not terrible like some of SA's shot types.  It's maybe slightly more damage than MarisA puts out, but over a wider spread.

I disagree.  I'd much rather play as ReimuB or MarisaC in SA than her.  In fact, I think MarisaB in UFO is single-handedly the worst type in any Windows Touhou game, perhaps barring solo Alice in IN.

[RainfallYoshi]

Reimu-B needs more love, seriously. I 1cced UFO within the first week of release thanks to the epicness of her homing amulets. It a bigger help than you think it is.

Her Fantasy Seal is great too, just bomb and then place the orbit of... orbs on top of the boss as you shotgun. Brilliant.

[?q]

Except solo Sakuya is much, much worse than solo Alice.

I think this is someplace where we're going to have to disagree, because SA ReimuB is like your basic shot plus shooting air puffs (talking of your Kirby avatar...).  MarisaB does, y'know, damage; and while her bomb is inexcusably bad, it's still better than SA ReimuB's bomb.

@PriestYoshi:  Notice I ranked ReimuB over SanAe...
Also, I hate Yoshis.  I shall call you Judas Priest from now on

[Affinity]

It seems that SanaeB is really useful for Nue, since she seems to be one of the only ones able to destroy the UFOs easily for some of her spells.

[Alice Fact]

Marisa.B can be good

oh my god this is hilarious and proves my point even further

[Helepolis]

Ok so SanaeB is stronger in unfocussed mode and requires shotgunning for massive damage in both modes. GREAT. Screw you 2nd hand Miko.

I tried all characters + shottypes and I horribly hate ReimuB she is seriously weak. Weaker than in IN solo. But her Fantasy seal again seems to cover up the loss. Same goes for SanaeB. Weak shots in focus,  LOLSUWAKONUKEBOMB to compensate.

I'll stick to ReimuA or SanaeA, Marisa is too much to handle for me =(

[Hawk]

Ok so SanaeB is stronger in unfocussed mode and requires shotgunning for massive damage in both modes. GREAT. Screw you 2nd hand Miko.

Well, I mean, she is a spread character at heart.  Shotgunning with spread types for massive damage has been standard from day one, and that's why I think MarisaB is bad.  Her shotgun isn't that good.  Now, I'm talking out of my ass, since we have no hard numbers yet, but it feels weaker than simply attacking with MarisaA.  And those back shots are absolutely worthless.  Patch-Earth was good in SA because it did so much damage because it was so situational.  I thought to myself, "Oh, these back shots would be great for the end of Stage 3, since now I can just circle around the screen."  Except that half the fairies still end up surviving because the rate of fire's too slow.

I dunno.  I want someone to upload a replay to prove me wrong.  Please.  Show me MarisaB not just surviving, but being effective in some way.

[Affinity]

The backshot is probably good for the final bosses' final nonspell and Syou's green bar spellcard, as well as for some of Nue's UFO attacks.  Other than that, I don't really see how the backshot is very useful, or how MarisaB warrants use over the more easily usable homing shot types.

[?q]

I tried all characters + shottypes and I horribly hate ReimuB she is seriously weak. Weaker than in IN solo.

Nnnnnnnno, ReimuB does not time out attacks for fun.  She's better than I thought she would be, especially for boss attacks where it's difficult to stay directly underneath them (surprisingly many).

how MarisaB warrants use over the more easily usable homing shot types.

Shotgun power.  Key word here is power.
As far as what Hawk's talking about, idk, because shotgunning is kind of the only thing MarisaB has going for her aside from an apparent dialogue-based fandom.

Also @Hawk:  Did you get my PM?

[LHCling]

Probably, change the topic to "UFO shot types discussion" or something like that if you're going to do comparisons between shot types and whatnot.
On the topic of SanaeB, I present:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64D7uLIvbWk

I'd put more discussion up, but I won't be able to give out any more until tomorrow, when I actually get the full version  :V

EDIT: Shotgun MarisaB only about as good as MarisaA, if not a little bit worse.

[Hawk]

Also @Hawk:  Did you get my PM?

Yes.  Geez, Mom.

(Actually, it's kickass.  Thanks.)

EDIT: Shotgun MarisaB only about as good as MarisaA, if not a little bit worse.

I figured as much.

[RainfallYoshi]

ReimuB is not weak. o_o

She works exceptionally when you're in cramped danmaku and don't have the luxury of moving underneath the boss all the time, and this situation happens a ton. UFO seems to be focused on throwing suffocating danmaku at you.

Her bomb is nice too, it does decent damage to a boss, and any extra orbs without something to target will spread out to the edges of the screen. It's a fantastic screen eraser.

I will say that ReimuB suffers the most when she loses power, the same way she did in MoF. If you lose too much power in the middle of a boss you're going to be slitting your wrists because things will start becoming survival cards.

[?q]

I will say that ReimuB suffers the most when she loses power, the same way she did in MoF. If you lose too much power in the middle of a boss you're going to be slitting your wrists because things will start becoming survival cards.

This is correct.  ReimuB at low power is actually really horrible.