Communing with Spirits(?) and a Theory of Gensokyo

[Nobu]

Let me preface this by saying that I am far from normal, and had a nasty string of delusions and hospitalizations from April 2012 to 2013. So some of the stuff I describe might be pretty out there. Go ahead and disagree though, give feedback and opinions, personal experiences, thoughts, whathave you.

Over the course of a year I have poured over the notes I made from those times I had delusions, thought a lot, immersed myself in both sciencey and New Agey material, and have ultimately arrived at the present day where I find myself being able to (seemingly) converse with some characters in my head or out on paper, in addition to feeling a strong pull of identity towards a small handful.

It's not entirely based on just 'most favorite characters', because many of my most favorites didn't appear at all during the delusions. Nazrin was conspicuously absent. Yukari was mentioned once somewhere but otherwise seemed to be content just watching. Hell, MIMA showed up. (Who the fuck is that, right?) It was a clusterfuck of Touhous just embodying all these concepts and ideas given form, wreaking havoc in my subconscious. In some cases I thought I was some of them. In other cases I had no idea who I was. But reflecting on the experience, I noticed which ones I identified as standins for me, versus which ones were distinctly outside. Suwako, Komachi, Shikieiki, Flandre and Cirno, Satori were outside. My standins seem to include Koishi, Nitori, Sanae, and Maribel (especially lately). Reimu and Marisa, i'm not entirely sure yet.

In a way, sitting down to meditate or write out meetings ends up feeling like i'm communing with the 'spirit' of the character. Whether or not there is actually some spirit out there will be eternally up to debate. So far i've sat down and had conversations at length with Reimu, Marisa, Yukari, Satori, Mokou, and Suwako. More recently Renko. The convos with Satori and Mokou were both entirely within my mind, while the others have transcripts. Reimu is usually the first person I meet when I trek to the Gensokyo in my mind.

I completely acknowledge that this might just sound like some kind of batshit weeaboo otherkin bullshit to some (many? all?) of you. The part of me that acknowledges the possibility of this being a complete fabrication anchors me to the real world, yet that side is also constantly surprised by the positive benefits this way of thinking seems to be providing.. At the very least, it's rather interesting to think and talk about.

Anyway, here is a distillation of some of what we've talked about.

I believe Gensokyo exists for each and every person that lets it exist in their minds. Gensokyo is sorta at the border of reality and fantasy anyway, right? It's how a place like Gensokyo would have to exist i'd imagine, in the collective imagination.

That's the thing about Gensokyo though, isn't it? You can be like "Hey where does all that Touhou bullshit live?" "Oh in Gensokyo." Fanworks of all kinds stretch Gensokyo out to be a staggering amount of headcanons. Whose one headcanon of a character is the 'correct' headcanon? Wouldn't the 'correct' one be basically an aggregate of everyone's headcanons?

Basically, if you got 100 Touhou fans to write a story where a character does a bunch of stuff, wouldn't it average out to a very predicatable set of behaviors?

Each character has a lot of potential locked within their basic framework. Would your Flandre prefer a dusting of chocolate chips on her sundaes or a splash of caramel? Or does your Flandre only feast on the blood and entrails of stray wanderers, wild animals, and the occasional youkai? Does your Reimu act begrudging and deadpan, or snarky and and mildly tsundere? Does your Shikieiki have a small breast complex, or could she not give two shits about the size of her chest? You've probably seen many different contradictory interpretations of any one character.

I say 'Does your X' and not "Does X", because I feel like in the world of headcanons and the sparse canon-ness of characters, there's no point to argue whether some 'Platonic ideal of Reimu Hakurei' exists or what its like. Some ideas can be more popular and some less, and EVERYONE gets influenced by how other people have interpreted her in the past. Maybe the first image you saw of Reimu was a cheerful one. Maybe it was a badass one. Maybe you've read Meister of Scarlet and think Reimu has a huge dong complex because of it. Either way, it shapes how she's going to turn out for you.



Footnote: I have some transcripts of times where I 'communed' with certain characters. At worst they are/were elaborate RP exercises, but I can't help but read over what I wrote weeks later and feel like I'm viewing a transcript of what actually happened. I'm debating whether or not I should share them. They basically read like dialogue-driven fics, discussing some of the stuff that I've outlined above. Unsure of where i'd even post them to be honest: here, PSL, or LettyJournal? And would anyone be interested in reading them?

[Nobu]

I figured I might as well post the one transcript that led to me deciding to make this thread in the first place. I was trying to write the second installment of Immeasurability of Substance a few hours ago, took a break to read the last two installments of the Sealing Club story, and found an interesting synchronicity I had no one to share with (that being Maribel's hospitalization for 'mental issues' a little after the events of Trojan Green Asteroid. The CD was released 4-30-2012, not even a week before my own first hospitalization.)


"Hey, Renko."

"Yeah? What's up Merry?"

"Uuu.. for one I think we should keep consistent with my nickname. Merry or Mary, which is it?"

"...there's a difference?"

I sighed and shook my head.

"I guess there isn't one. Consistency? After all, I am writing a fic."

"Whoa, you're starting to blur the lines there, aren't you?"

"I guess I am... I just see all these things, notice things, and I don't know how to act on them aside from share them excitedly with friends who don't seem to share the same excitement I do about it. It's a little frustrating."

"Well, you'll always have me. The Hifuu club is one-by-two, right? One. By. Two."

"Apparently that's an Indian film. I don't know if it's any good."

"Oh really? Huh, your random knowledge always seems to surprise me."

"It's not really random y'know. I just get curious and look things up sometimes to see what I find. Also, Hifuu Club or Sealing Club? Which is it?"

"Why are you saying the same thing twice in a row and having me choose between them? You ok Mary?"

"Ok seriously you're doing this on purpose now!" Despite myself, I couldn't help but crack a smile. Renko had assuredly accomplished her mission.

[Sssgth]

Erm, rp-ing goes in Rumia's Party Games.

[Tengukami]

Erm, rp-ing goes in Rumia's Party Games.

This isn't an RP.

[aListers]

I didn't think you'd come out with this. I have the same, or at least similar, theories about how Gensokyo works. It makes sense because overall Youkai gain energy through fear while gods gain energy through faith. Overall it's recognition that allows magic as a whole to exist. I remember a TV show where the guy predicted the lottery numbers that would come out. He explained through a theory called somthing like "intellegence of the masses" which meant that getting a huge amount of people to guess would lead to the answer - somthing like that anyway; I was too young to understand fully. I think that all our headcanons together help to mould gensokyo into what it is.

I also believe that it's possible to get into Gensokyo. However, to do so you would need to break the 4th wall.  It's interesting to see you do this because until now I thought that the only way to break the 4th wall was through dreams.

That last article that you had trancended 2 boundaries. Not only did you break the 4th wall but you also broke the language barrier. You had it translated while Renko didn't. I'm actually very interested in these things. I almost think you're doing what Bran stark can do in game of thrones. Still, I'm just a dreamer and I don't know very much about how you do this and what state of mind you get into to do it.

[Nobu]

I also believe that it's possible to get into Gensokyo. However, to do so you would need to break the 4th wall.  It's interesting to see you do this because until now I thought that the only way to break the 4th wall was through dreams.

Here's an exerpt of something Maribel mentioned from Changeability of Strange Dream:

"But it's strange...
Even though old-fashioned people like you consider dreams and reality to be direct opposites, I heard that people long, long ago didn't distinguish between dreams and reality."

"And these days, we distinguish between dream and reality, but they are the same."

"The truth of reality and the truth of dreams, the real me and the dream me, each of them exists."

"Am I myself a butterfly of night, human of daytime?
According to current common sense, they're both me."
 

That last article that you had trancended 2 boundaries. Not only did you break the 4th wall but you also broke the language barrier. You had it translated while Renko didn't. I'm actually very interested in these things. I almost think you're doing what Bran stark can do in game of thrones. Still, I'm just a dreamer and I don't know very much about how you do this and what state of mind you get into to do it.

Generally, I go to talk when I get the 'itch' to. It's not a "Oh boy I get to hang out and talk to Reimu Hakurei! Yay!" feeling but a bit more somber and serious than that. There's also a bit of anxiety too. After all, this is *Reimu*. If you believed you were meeting her in the flesh, would you fan and gush over her or treat her respectfully and like a real person? And even if you were comfortable and familiar around her, can you blame me for thinking "Dear lord, how can someone like me hold her interest let alone be on good terms?" sometimes?

When I write forum posts such as these, a lot of editing and revising comes into play and I work out of order. Same goes for writing fics. I'll write snippets or flashes of scenes that pop into my head, and then flesh out the surrounding story.

When I commune, I write straight through, from start to finish without going back or out of order. It's imperfect, as I can't catch everything that happens with how fast some of the exchanges go. I try to preserve as much as I can. My mind can get really busy. 

That's assuming I'm actually writing a transcript of my visit. Sometimes I just visit while meditating or laying in bed. Or I'll be writing but we'll take a break from the conversation while I go do something, though they're still available if I pay attention or chat them up in my head. Like right now for instance. Generally I write things out when I feel like it'd be important to look over later.

The vibe is different from normal. For one, it's one of the those kinda rare times I'm able to tune out distractions. For two, there's a feeling of 'presence', like i'm not alone. Even in those instances where Reimu and I are just sitting there not directly engaging each other, I still feel her present.

I'll post a more substantial transcript, of when I talked with Reimu and Yukari a few weeks ago. A decent amount of what was in there ended up in my first post. Decide for yourself what you believe.

[Nobu]

(Notes to assist readability for you guys I put in green and parentheses. This happened somewhere between 4/17 and 4/25.)


Reimu was in a red tracksuit, with a small pile of mandarin peels sitting next to her, gazing boredly up at me from the book she was reading. (This picture had made an impression on me for various reasons when I wrote this.)

I sighed and sat down at the kotatsu, curling my legs underneath the blanket.

"If you want sake you can get it yourself from the storehouse. I'm not about to serve you walking in here at this time of night."

I laid my head down on the table, grumbling to myself. "I just wanted some company is all. Life is being pretty frustrating right now."

"Huh." Reimu picked another mikan from the pile and began peeling. "Isn't there someone in the Shrine of Blazing Hells that has been wanting to see you for a while now? Why me?"

"I dunno.. you're the first I guess? When I decide to run off to Gensokyo, being received by you just seems natural, I suppose." I rolled my head to the side, resting my chin on the table's surface and staring off into space.

Reimu continued to idly read, popping another piece of citrus into her mouth.

Silence...

"Reimu, why can't I be on this side of things, instead of being me and having all of this baggage in the real world? Sometimes I wonder if things would be better as a youkai, or to just be able to live in Gensokyo all the time."

"It isn't perfect here either y'know."

"I know that but excuse me for thinking it is a fair bit better than this sort of situation I have right now?"

"What situation, exactly?" She looks up from her book to study my expression.

"I.. just.. everything, y'know?"

"Mmm, I do and I don't. I wouldn't react to things the same way that you are, and I don't know all that there is to be about what you're coming from either. Maybe at some level I do given that we have enough of a connection to converse in some respects. But all I can really know is what you are willing to open up to me about. And well.. when it comes to understanding, I can't say I'll ever understand things completely."

"Is it selfish of me to pretend like you all actually care about my existence though? Am I not just twisting fantasies and delusions to my own ends, to stroke my ego or fill in for something that i'm missing in the real world?"

"I dunno, are you? How should I know? I'm just your average shrine maiden."

"...there's nothing average about you."

Reimu shrugged. I continued to hold my head in my hands and stare off into space.

"Mu... I guess you're the most neutral party, which is why I end up feeling comfortable and come here first. You give me the time of day, not much more and not much less. And well... even if I am doing what I said I was doing regarding exploiting and twisting fantasies, at least with you it doesn't feel as... deliberately bad? I dunno how to say it really. You're not fawning all over me, you're not expressing excessive concern for my well being, but you don't seem to mind my company when I drop by either. Though that may just be me again, and you secretly loathe me. Who knows."

I caught the orange aimed straight for my head. "So they're oranges now? Make up your mind. Heh."

"Look. I'm not going to pretend I know what it is you're going through, ok? You can come to me with your problems and I can listen, though beyond that there's really not much I can do aside from give you a place to come by from time to time and unwind. Though oftentimes you don't really need other people to come up with solutions on your own. Don't underestimate yourself."

"Yeah, that's true.. whether or not this is all a fabrication, I'm receiving some kind of benefit right? If at the very least it gives me the feeling that I have talked to someone without having to bring down the people around me in the process. And well, Gensokyo collects a lot of things. I guess that might be its nature?"

I peered around for Yukari. Reimu sighed. "Do you want to bring her into this? You can if you want. This is your visit after all. I don't pretend to know how it all works, but if you really want to see her she should be around. If she's not sleeping that is.."

A rustle of kotatsu made me glance to the right, to see Yukari tucking herself into the Kotatsu and smiling at me. I smile back half-heartedly.

"I.. don't think we've actually met officially before, have we? I'm.. well, I guess I am a lot of things sometimes, but right now i'm just Nobu.."

"It is a pleasure, Nobu." She extended a gloved hand, and I took it and squeezed. Reimu got up from her seat to go to the kitchen. "Yes, i'm making you tea. You're going to be here a while, after all."

(Here I ended up going off to make some tea of my own, before sitting back down at the computer.)

Reimu smiled. "Well, it looks like I didn't have to get up after all. A black tea eh, well I suppose it's good for mornings like this. Mm, it smells like chocolate too." She took a sip of the still steaming cup of tea.

"Heh, I guess one of the things I wanted is to just be able to share tea with some people. Thanks."

"Ah, that's a nostalgic song. Kinda makes the shrine sound a little ominous, doesn't it? Then it quickly starts picking up into a hot mess altogether." (I actually have no clue what song we were referring to here. I don't remember.)

(N)"It's very Touhou-esque, even for being such an old song. I like the melody. It has that natsukashii feeling without being overplayed.. like I long to listen to the 'original' source of that familiarity."

"Mm."

Sip.

"Yukari, what's the deal with Gensokyo anyway? I feel at once like I'm on the cusp of knowing something, that I may just be making everything all up, that things could be real or fantasy or a dream or somewhere in between.. or what. I really fear that.. everything will be a lie? Like all of a sudden *poof*, and everything will be gone."

"Mm, that's a good starting idea to trying to wrap your head around the 'true' nature of Gensokyo... it is as you say. Real, a fantasy, a dream, somewhere in between... can't they all be right?"

"Urgh yeah I know, but it'd be nice to just have something 'concrete' I guess.. Like a 'road map to travel to Gensokyo for the prospective tourist and potential migrant', y'know? Something where I can do X and Y, and fully take advantage of things.. yeah, I don't like the term 'take advantage'.. I want to contribute my fair share, y'know?"

"It's actually fairly easy for the spirit to wander into Gensokyo if conditions are right.. after all, you wandered in didn't you? Do you think you're the first? Or that you'll be the last, either? These borders are constantly being negotiated."

"Yeah true... like, I feel part of me knows the answer to many of the questions i'm asking, but I just don't know how to articulate it? Like whether or not it's speaking from Myself or from Someone Else or a combination of the both or something else entirely... and I get this nasty feeling that again this is an instance of not having a clear concrete answer either."

"See, you're learning a little bit each day aren't you?"

"Yeah, but a lot of these days seem to be going by without any appreciable 'progress' being made.. What have I even done this week anyway? Make and eat pot confectionaries? Buy tea? Visit with Michael and James and Travis? I guess those are all good things, but.."

"But?"

"I suppose I create my own expectations and fail to meet them, then get disappointed.  So I eitehr have to lower my expectations, or rise to meet the challenge. But rising i've been not so good at. " I yawn.

"Yukari, how do I get to Gensokyo?"

"Oh? But aren't you already here with me and Reimu, sitting and enjoying some tea?" Yukari smiles and sips from her teacup.

"I am but I'm not! I mean to all outside observers, and even to my own personal observation, i'm just sitting here forcing myself to write about the fictional meeting that I am having with the two of you, writing for all parties considered. I'm not completely just sitting down with you two, taking in the scenery with my five senses and feeling the presences of you nearby. It's different, y'know?"

"'Not completely'.. even sitting down 'in the flesh' as you say, your mind could be somewhere completely different couldn't it? Like every time you get distracted by your phone and Kennie and go into that particular pocket world shared with the two of you. Is the time you have with Kennie less real just because you're not with them 'in the flesh'?" (Kennie = my partner. it's an LDR.)

"No I suppose it isn't.. but when they respond to me it's not expected or felt like it's created by my own head, like it feels like it might be with you guys..."

"Is it really so bad to be created by your own head though? Aren't we all in the end just creations that imply existence by how we interact with the world? What is sufficient proof for existence?"

"All good questions, and I guess they sort of answer themselves too. Part of me feels like I want to write something out that'll just solve or fix everything, or at least illuminate things more or put them more into perspective. Something good, at least. How about... I just start talking, and you or anyone else can stop me if I'm wrong?"

I take a breath, and think of what it is I want to say. And then promptly clear it out of my head, light a cigarette, and begin to compose myself.

"Gensokyo is a world that exists somewhere between reality and fiction. To those firmly rooted in reality, Gensokyo seems impossibly fantastical, while to those on the fictional side can't help but acknowledge the level of presence the world has. To say 'where' Gensokyo exists is also a difficult thing to speculate on either, since no two people will regard the characters in the exact same way and would have them react similarly in different situations. Yet at the same time, we want to think of Gensokyo as being a single place that exists somewhere out there in the world, and there is the assumption that there is one 'canonical version' upon which all of the fan interpretations revolve around. It is the assumption that you could open a portal that would take you to the True Gensokyo, and talk to the True Reimu Hakurei that would serve you her True blend of tea that she serves to all of the other True residents of Gensokyo."

"That's one theory. Yet the appearance of one theory implies other theories, doesn't it? Perhaps instead of trying to focus on the 'True' version of things, instead it would be better to question what the 'true' version of anything is? Is your true self that which you hide away from others, or is it the you that others see that is more 'true'? Who knows the 'true Nobu' in any case? Or does the 'true Nobu' change based on the person they are currently interacting with?"

"In a similar sense, what Reimu would be the real Reimu anyway? It seems a bit weird to just completely discount everything created except for the 'canon' stuff made by ZUN, to get a complete picture of what Reimu Hakurei is, right? But what about the contradictory elements from different fanworks?"

"Well first of all, things contradict each other less than it appears. In Gensokyo all kinds of borders are negotiated, including the borders between canonical and non-canonical. Pure maidens, yet also somehow participating in dark and dirty stories at the same time. There's a lot of contradictions here, y'know."

"Firstly, acting. Secondly, people here are kind of used to that sort of treatment. Thirdly, you're not the only one that likes to entertain multiple personas. You manage to maintain distinct dimensions of yourself, so why can't we do the same thing? Honestly if you wanted to turn Gensokyo into some kind of big Mary Sue fantasy, that's your prerogative."

"Yeah but... I feel like you guys should have some kind of say in that too? Even though who I'm referring to with 'you guys' is kinda hard to pin down.."

"The thing is, if you think of collapsing probability matrixes at the quantum level, Gensokyo could be thought of as existing in many states simultaneously. The act of observing (or in your case, fantasizing) collapses that probability field from your perspective. Fantasies flesh out the world and also indulge the person creating the fantasies. And you don't really have to worry about consent there either, except when other people feel like you're manipulating the characters for your own ends. As if anyone else is any better with their self-indulgent fantasies played out through us?"

"Eep.. you sound kinda bitter almost."

"Nah, i'm not bitter. I just think that y'all should be open to seeing it how it is. Gensokyo is our home, but also a crucible (or a sandbox..) to the people that encounter it. All of the Gensokyo's that exist in people's heads are True Gensokyos to that person. And all of the characters that reside within are pieces of yet also complete in their own respects. I'm your Reimu Hakurei, or Hakurei Reimu, or however you want to order it. But I am also my own person too, if you can wrap your head around that. As much as you may want, i'm only going to deviate so much y'know. You don't have to feel like you're just inserting thoughts. Who told you that i'd enjoy this black tea anyway? But I am. Sure, you may not have an idea as to my tea palette but do I know yours? Do you even know yours at the same time?"

"If you want to strengthen your connection to Gensokyo, all you need to do is get closer to its residents. Don't be afraid to make up 'headcanons', and don't be afraid of them contradicting either. As if real people don't constantly contradict each other anyway, after all. Make up stories. Make it your Gensokyo."

"Don't worry, the connection *does* go both ways. If you believe in it that is. Just gotta keep your eyes open, y'know?"

(Here I went off to make more tea, and do a few things before coming back.)

I sit back down and dust myself off.

"Does that count as some kind of montage for you guys, or what?"

Reimu shrugs. "Who said we were around or even paying attention to what you were doing anyway?"

"Well, I suppose I feel better. And you were right, we were going to be here for a while. After I finish my pot of tea, time to kick things into bigger gear."

(Many bathroom breaks later..)

"Holy crap, how do you guys go without peeing every five minutes with all the tea you drink?! What kind of youkai metabolisms do you have anyway, haha."

"I'm not a youkai. And do we really have to get into our bathroom habits on camera? One of the nice things about existing in between like this, is that we don't have to sweat the small stuff all the time."

"Yeah that's true... So Reimu, what is your favorite tea anyway?"

"Hm... if I had to choose a favorite... well, that's a story for a different time, isn't it? It wouldn't be so interesting if I just said 'oh just your run-of-the-mill green tea', would it? Who says i've found my favorite, anyway? What kind of tea do we get here in Gensokyo anyway? All good questions."

"Yeah good point... So... how would you guys lie to me exactly? Like if you told me some kind of story, how would I ever be able to tell if it 'actually happened', even if you assured me it was 100% truthful? I need a different definition of truth, I suppose.."

"Mmhmm. Let me tell you a quick story. My favorite tea is actually this special shipment that Marisa brought to me one day as an apology or a gift of appeasement or whatever it was she typically gives me gifts for. I don't really know much about it, or even its name, but I'd know it if I tasted it again. It was a black tea, I think. With a slight fruity taste to it and a richness underneath the bitterness. Not very descriptive, but who knows? Maybe i'll find it again or find a better tea, if you keep giving tea offerings to us like you have been."

(I had poured an extra teacup earlier, since I figured a little ritual never hurt.)

"What should I do with the tea afterwards, anyway? Dump it into soil? Drink it myself? Or what? When it comes to tradition, it's hard when i'm sorta picking it out of the air while still trying to follow some kind of tradition at the same time.."

(...and this is where it trailed off. They never answered my question. I'm not sure they care, really. It's the thought that counts?)

[Sssgth]

Hmm. If there was a youkai god, how would it gain power? Fear, faith, or a combination?

[Nobu]

Hmm. If there was a youkai god, how would it gain power? Fear, faith, or a combination?

Whether fear or faith, when you boil it down doesn't it come down to acknowledgement? Coupled with an appropriate emotional response. There might not be much of a difference imo.

[aListers]

I'm going to try to take the advice that Yukari gave you - or at least I'm guessing it was Yukari. The dialogue wasn't very clear on who was saying it but I guess that's a good thing because I have bias. Still, I guess that headcanons benifit everybody anyway. I've always tried my best to stick to canon in my head but I guess that I should embrace all opinions instead of trying to put down ones I don't like. My morals usually get in the way of things but I'm happy to be a friend of Nitori's and the boyfriend of Alice. If people want to disagree then everybody has their own Gensokyo.

Your visits are now my headcanon too. I sort of consider headcanons as ways of understanding Gensokyo. Our understandings of Gensokyo are very similar (although I don't know much about your character interpretation) so to me you visit the "real" Gensokyo for lack of a better word. Right down to your opinions about a youkai god I tend to have similar opinions.

Anyway, about how you do this, so you don't quite get to decide when you can go to gensokyo? I'm guessing the itch is triggered by emotional feelings rather than personal desire unless the feelings trigger the desire. After getting the itch you then decide whever or not to go I'm guessing.

[Nobu]

Anyway, about how you do this, so you don't quite get to decide when you can go to gensokyo? I'm guessing the itch is triggered by emotional feelings rather than personal desire unless the feelings trigger the desire. After getting the itch you then decide whever or not to go I'm guessing.

I generally only 'go' when I feel something weighing on me. I don't feel like that's a hard restriction though? I do remember a time there was a party at the Hakurei Shrine though. Shared a smoke and chatted a bit with Mokou outside, and ended up passed out a little after I came back in.


Also, there is the concept of a 'muse' in RP circles to refer to the characters a person RPs as like distinct and separate entities. And I think authors and roleplayers interviewing their muses to discover their motivations is a common thing. If you don't ascribe (or just don't want to think about) the question of 'real' or 'fake', 'fantasy' or 'reality', then you can at least consider the ability to utilize muses above and beyond helping out your writing. Helping you think about things, work out problems, offer a different perspective, and improve your life.

(note i'm not recommending ditching real people altogether by any means, but as a supplement I've found a lot of value in it)

[Labuto]

Holy shit, this is fascinating, really made me think too. Thanks for sharing this with us.