Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Drake]

while the "scattering in the air while attacking" is more uncertain....

Again, it has nothing to do with her ability ("while attacking" isn't even what's said...). That particular detail just highlights that Yuuka likes to create beautiful attacks that involve flowers.

Now that you've explained why you want to know this though, I think the question is wrong. We don't know what Yuuka, or really any character, could do if they pulled out everything they had and used their power to the maximum extent possible. You cannot possibly write a scenario like this without taking creative liberties that run outside of what official works have described, unless you want to restrict yourself to only a few attacks or powers just because those are the only ones we've seen. You extrapolating and supposing she could grow flowers from literally anywhere is already taking creative liberties outside of canon.

[Sagus]

if she is able to grow and/or create flowers/petals from nothing anywhere she want she can literally make them appear inside an opponent's body, for a very unusual and creepy death.....

That reminds me of the "Yuuka vs Yukari" doujin, by Tohonifun. Yuuka uses her powers in that exact fashion in it.

But anyway, what Drake said. The whole point of the danmaku in the games is so the characters don't end up killing each other, and since Gensokyo has yet to see any truly dangerous scenario where the rules had to be dropped, we have no canon "full power with the intent to kill" moments.

[Espadas]

You cannot possibly write a scenario like this without taking creative liberties that run outside of what official works have described, unless you want to restrict yourself to only a few attacks or powers just because those are the only ones we've seen. You extrapolating and supposing she could grow flowers from literally anywhere is already taking creative liberties outside of canon.

Indeed, while i'm trying to write it as close to canon as possible, it's practically impossible to use ONLY canon, it's way too small or unclear.... (my head still hurt from trying to deal with Yuugi's ability   :colonveeplusalpha: )

The fact i was focusing on the "grow flowers literally anywhere" was exactly because i thought it was the most plausible application of her powers: after all Medicine, Cirno, and others can freely create their signature "element" wherever they want, so someone which is explicity referred to as incredibly old and powerful should have no problem doing the same.....

It IS a speculation on my part, but i'm trying to choose the most reasonable ones based on what we have.

Thanks for the help

[Clarste]

If she's using her power to their maximum extent, it's unlikely that they'd involve flowers at all. She'd just shoot lasers and stuff, because that's something anyone can do. The wording of their powers is an intentionally vague "to the extent of manipulating X", which implies that they can do things other than manipulating X. Which should be obvious since they can also shoot lasers and fly and whatnot. Yuuka isn't limited to flowers, it's just something she chooses to do for her own reasons. So I think your idea is flawed from its premise.

[Prime32]

Indeed, while i'm trying to write it as close to canon as possible, it's practically impossible to use ONLY canon, it's way too small or unclear.... (my head still hurt from trying to deal with Yuugi's ability   :colonveeplusalpha: )

Yuugi's power isn't literally unexplained phenomena. Rather, she's just so powerful that it can't be comprehended. Like when Kenpachi Zaraki fought the imagination guy in Bleach.

We're talking about someone who can create hurricanes with her voice, through sheer physical strength.

[Drake]

Yeah if we're talking about Yuugi, it's best to go about as if she has no "abilities" like everyone else does, but can do crazy oni shit and is so absurdly strong the things she can do don't actually make any sense. This is how her powers are handled within the series -- nobody knows what the heck they're actually doing, to the point of Aya calling it fake (i.e. a cheat or scam). Her screams could level forests. Holding up her hands, she can make super-intense waves of heat. But it isn't magic, it's just crazy oni shit.

[Leon゠Helsing]

So basically Yuugi is the embodiment of badass? :V

[Espadas]

If she's using her power to their maximum extent, it's unlikely that they'd involve flowers at all. She'd just shoot lasers and stuff, because that's something anyone can do. The wording of their powers is an intentionally vague "to the extent of manipulating X", which implies that they can do things other than manipulating X. Which should be obvious since they can also shoot lasers and fly and whatnot. Yuuka isn't limited to flowers, it's just something she chooses to do for her own reasons. So I think your idea is flawed from its premise.

Well, of course i'm not limiting them to simply use their abilities, but anyone can write about fights with humongous lasers, magical blasts and uberpowerful punches (lol that sound like Dragonball ).
It's when they decide to use their abilities that i'm trying to be accurate, because it's the real tricky part (and some of them can practically use ONLY their abilities, i.e. Medicine.... apart from her poisons she only have regular danmakus, which are almost useless in a real fight)

If we think about it, half of them possess game-breaking or outright OHKO abilities, so merely using them would turn into a quick-draw contest.... and since they are used to fight with danmakus, where one of the points is showing off, i think they would really crank up the power only when pissed off.....

Trust me, i'm trying to throw as many curve balls as possible with the fights, to make them interesting.... heck, i've found a perfectly canon way to make the AKI SISTERS's abilities useful! (and i'm quite proud of it  :V)

And yes, Yuugi is a badass..... but since we are speaking about Gensokyo i think almost the entire cast qualifies  :]


EDIT: since i'm at it.... taken from the wiki's page about God: "Of note is that loss of faith for a god means a loss of their ability to manifest their power. For a god, losing all their power is equivalent to death (with the exception of arahitogami, who would continue to exist as normal humans)."

Does that mean that they literally disappear/die or that they become something like a simple divine spirit, powerless and unable to express themself in the physical world?

[Clarste]

EDIT: since i'm at it.... taken from the wiki's page about God: "Of note is that loss of faith for a god means a loss of their ability to manifest their power. For a god, losing all their power is equivalent to death (with the exception of arahitogami, who would continue to exist as normal humans)."

Does that mean that they literally disappear/die or that they become something like a simple divine spirit, powerless and unable to express themself in the physical world?

They go back to whatever they were before. For most, that's a nameless and egoless spirit, one of the yaoyorozu ("the myriad"). Those are the spirits in every blade of grass and whatnot. For living gods, they become normal people. For ones who've developed a fearsome reputation, they might become youkai. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule to it other than "gods without faith are not gods". And the wiki trying to provide one seems more misleading than helpful to me.

[Leon゠Helsing]

And yes, Yuugi is a badass..... but since we are speaking about Gensokyo i think almost the entire cast qualifies  :]

But Yuugi's a strong, independent woman who don't need no fancy-schmancy "powers". :V

[Espadas]

Ok this is really weird at face value.... Still from the god's page:

"Shinto gods may split their spirits and manifest where ever called on, thus enabling them to be in many places at once to serve their worshippers; this does not diminish the power of the god in any way. Certain individuals, such as Watatsuki no Yorihime and shrine maidens like Reimu Hakurei and Sanae Kochiya can directly call upon the gods to enter their bodies. Most gods interact with the physical world entirely in this manner. Some gods have physical bodies which allow them to act independently without being called upon, such as Kanako and Suwako (and likely Hina Kagiyama, Minoriko Aki, and Shizuha Aki), but this does not prevent them from splitting their spirit or being invoked in the normal ways."

1) Does this mean that, if they want to, Kanako and co. can have multiple copies of themselves going around (by splitting their spirits)? O.o

2) Let say Sanae invoke Kanako while being away from her. What happens?

a) Kanako enter Sanae's body while her own body still goes on like nothing happened (resulting in a Kanako-possessed Sanae AND a real Kanako at the same time)
b) Kanako appear besides Sanae while her own body goes on (resulting in TWO physical Kanakos at the same time)
c) Kanako enter Sanae's body and her original body disappear
d) Kanako appear besides Sanae and her original body disappear
e) either of the above, Kanako decide which one.....

3) Why while writing the first question my first thought was "Kage Bunshin" and the second was "Symmetrical Docking"? 

[Drake]

Answer would be e).
I would think most of the time they would only bother with having one figure unless they needed to be elsewhere at the same time, or in order to give Sanae powers (which wouldn't need a new physical figure anyways). When Sanae is invoking them they might not even be fully aware, since repeatedly invoking them would probably be bothersome otherwise.

But say for example that two people prayed to the same god and the god is supposed to show up. Does the god go to one person, then the other? No, they'd see them at the same time, most likely. This sort of "splitting" is just an in-universe canonization of this sort of thing.

[Espadas]

Thanks for being so quick and comprehensive Drake

What about Bishamonten? As far as i can remember he is the only NOT-SHINTO god canonically present in Touhou.... would he be able to do the same? Would Byakuren and/or Shou be able to invoke a "copy" or get possessed by him?

In the story Byakuren tried to summon him to her temple but he was "very busy" and never came, so she resorted to bring Shou to his mountain.... that seems to be an hint that he CANNOT "split" himself like the Shinto gods, but doesn't help much about being possessed.....

[Clarste]

A god doesn't need to "show up" to be embodied in something. The point of a Shinto shrine is that the spirit of a god lives there, inside an object called a goshintai (literally "god body"). Deep inside the Moriya shrine is Kanako's real body. But her woman form is also her real body. And her branch shrines in various places. She's enshrined in a bunch of places and therefore exists in a bunch of places, at the same time, constantly. Yatagarasu is enshrined inside Utsuho, yet he's still serving Amaterasu in heaven.

Bishamonten is not enshrined anywhere, so he lacks this power that Shinto gods have. Given how Shou works as his avatar, it seems like whatever "possession" there is just granting power without personality.

[Prime32]

2) Let say Sanae invoke Kanako while being away from her. What happens?

a) Kanako enter Sanae's body while her own body still goes on like nothing happened (resulting in a Kanako-possessed Sanae AND a real Kanako at the same time)
b) Kanako appear besides Sanae while her own body goes on (resulting in TWO physical Kanakos at the same time)
c) Kanako enter Sanae's body and her original body disappear
d) Kanako appear besides Sanae and her original body disappear
e) either of the above, Kanako decide which one.....

A or B, depending on how she's invoked. In Hisoutensoku, Sanae can even summon Suwako to attack Suwako.

[TresserT]

Are Miko and Byakuren actually enemies? Most portrayals I see have them in a Mokou/Kaguya like relationship. Is that actually the case, or are they just "business rivals" fighting for followers?

[CyberAngel]

Are Miko and Byakuren actually enemies? Most portrayals I see have them in a Mokou/Kaguya like relationship. Is that actually the case, or are they just "business rivals" fighting for followers?

It's the latter. They could sit and chat during SoPM no problem.

It applies to all religious establishments in Gensokyo, actually. Their core sets of followers don't overlap, so there are no conflicts. Miko has hermits, Byakuren has youkai willing for a different purpose, Kanako has mountain youkai, Reimu has... other bosses she fought. They do try to attract human population by offering different services, but they rarely conflict with each other even there.

So really, it's just fandom being fandom . I mean, even Mokou and Kaguya can be on friendly terms when they need to.

[Imosa]

How do we know Miko is actually trying to attract human followers? I was always of the impression that Miko followed Taoism for the goal of immortality, and doesn't really care what anyone else does.

[CyberAngel]

Well, she took part in HM (even her special ability was relying on popularity), and then there was that four monkeys thing. She also was quite eager to become a leader (although more of a political one) for people at the start of SoPM.

[Sagus]

How do we know Miko is actually trying to attract human followers?

She isn't. People just go to her to become her apprentices, and she's nice/narcissistic enough to take them in, as we see in WaHH 18.

[Imosa]

Well, she took part in HM (even her special ability was relying on popularity), and then there was that four monkeys thing. She also was quite eager to become a leader (although more of a political one) for people at the start of SoPM.

I don't know about HM but, the 4 monkeys thing does seem kinda weird. I'm not sure why she would make those.

[CyberAngel]

Judging by last two paragraphs of that article, it's an item that would be useful for hermits. So I guess this could be sort of an advertisement for those who would want to become one (what with phrases like "With these, you can easily live longer than even the most devout monk").

[Imosa]

Judging by last two paragraphs of that article, it's an item that would be useful for hermits. So I guess this could be sort of an advertisement for those who would want to become one (what with phrases like "With these, you can easily live longer than even the most devout monk").

Perhaps. I feel like becoming a hermit requires a bit more work although it certainly can't hurt. I wonder if it might just be Miko's attempt at giving the whole afterlife the middle finger.

[Calamity]

Not really related to canon but I'm curious as to which Touhou characters would best represent the Seven Deadly Sins. Some are pretty straightforward but I'd like to know what others think.

Lust: None of the characters come to mind immediately to be honest, but I think the term "lust" could be extended to intense desire for anything, not just sexually.
Gluttony: Obvious pick would be Yuyuko, then possibly Yoshika since her ability is literally being able to eat anything.
Greed: Obvious pick would be Marisa.
Sloth: Obvious pick would be Yukari for sleeping all the time. Suika? She gives off that kind of vibe based on how I see her typically represented but I don't know how much of that is fandom. Kaguya could fit in there too being neet and all.
Wrath: Mokou is a good candidate, holding a grudge and feuding with Kaguya for hundreds of years.
Envy: Obvious pick would be Parsee.
Pride: Cirno is the first to come to mind, then Seija for being anti-esablishment.

[Nobu]

Lust: None of the characters come to mind immediately to be honest, but I think the term "lust" could be extended to intense desire for anything, not just sexually.

The problem is that Greed and Envy together pretty much cover 'intense non-sexual desire'. Canonically, there are no Touhous that are shoehorned into lust, but fanon pegs Koakuma as being a succubus sometimes so if you have to have someone fill that slot..

Yuyuko works fine for gluttony, Marisa for greed...

Sloth: Komachi

Wrath and Envy both fit. As for pride... youkai are generally a pretty prideful bunch, aren't they? A little voice is telling me to put Kanako's name forward though.

[Clarste]

I think Seiga works decently for lust because she likes using people more than material things, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Miko takes apprentices but doesn't believe that any of them are suited to actually become hermits like her. Her religion isn't really one that takes anyone, since only exceptional people are qualified.

Miko and Byakuren are elss rivals for followers and more like they just hate each other over how Miko treated Buddhism in the past and other ideological differences. But it's a cordial hate, not like they're always picking fights with other. Mostly just off-handedly insulting each other all the time, in an intelligent snarky way.

[Prime32]

Judging by last two paragraphs of that article, it's an item that would be useful for hermits. So I guess this could be sort of an advertisement for those who would want to become one (what with phrases like "With these, you can easily live longer than even the most devout monk").

I should note that "monk" is only in that line as part of translating a pun (but I figure making stealth insults at Buddhist monks is in-character for Miko, so whatever). Originally it was "your lifespan can be endless".

Also, removing the worms mentioned in that article seems to be how you become a "Stage 2" youkai magician, assuming the name of the ritual isn't just figurative.

I think Seiga works decently for lust because she likes using people more than material things, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Isn't Lust basically about craving sensations, knowledge or status? By that criteria I'd say Remilia is at the top (assuming she's not Envy or Pride), since she starts incidents just because she's bored. Maybe Kokoro, though she grows out of it.

Gluttony might apply to Kanako and/or Sanae, as in taking more than your fair share or wasting things that other people can use. Possibly also some of the characters with weapons that destroy spirits.

I'd say Koishi and Reisen make good candidates for Sloth, in the sense of abandoning your responsibilities. Tenshi might also qualify.

[Clarste]

Isn't lust basically about craving sensations, knowledge or status? By that criteria I'd say Remilia is at the top; maybe Kokoro.

Is it? Wikipedia's article on the Seven Deadly Sins says it's just intense desire for whatever, to the point where you lose control of yourself. I don't think Remilia loses control of herself, she's just bored. And Kokoro doesn't really intensely desire new experiences, she just sought them because Mamizou told her to.

If we're talking craving knowledge and status though, I think that again points to the Taoist hermits. "Desire", "ambition", etc are the main themes of their interpretation of Taoism. The game is called "Ten Desires" after all, and has songs like "Desire Drive" and "Desire Dream." Miko slots neatly into Pride (Why wasn't this mentioned earlier? Believing herself to be perfect is like her main thing.), so I think Seiga's desires for fame, immortality, people to torment etc makes her fit well. Better than I was thinking before actually.

[Prime32]

Miko slots neatly into Pride (Why wasn't this mentioned earlier? Believing herself to be perfect is like her main thing.)

I didn't mention her because it's not a sin if you really are as awesome as you say you are. :V

[Espadas]

While Cirno is quite good for Pride i would put REMILIA in her place.

Remilia is infamous for her pride, and Cirno is more like foolish arrogance than pride....