Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Drake]

riding her broom in the speed almost similar to Aya

I'd like to point out that this is probably impossible for Marisa to achieve. Tengu speed is theoretically far more ridiculous than is ever actually shown; you'd probably end up getting to limitations of Gensokyo before the top-speed Tengu can't go any faster.

Quoting Koishi's profile in SoPm written by Akyuu: "A youkai invisible to adults, and only visible to certain children. However, even those who played with them in their childhood will completely forget that they existed once they grow up. Has anything like that ever happened to you?(*2). (2*) Not to me"

Akyuu did stated that she didn't forgot the youkai, implying she can still remember youkais like Koishi afterwards.

Well, she's saying that nothing like forgetting a childhood imaginary friend has ever happened to her, because she literally doesn't forget anything. It's definitely the case that she would remember Koishi if she met her, but she hasn't. You can pretty much assume Akyuu hasn't met Koishi by SoPM because she has no such details written.

Marisa is vulnerable to tigers.

Good quote. I find that part almost funny because she's pretty seriously wounded but she's just like "wow what a bummer I can't regenerate"

How old it the Tohou fanbase in general. Has it gotten a cult following as soon as HRTP was released or only after EOSD? Is the western fanbase younger than the Japanese one?

Touhou's fanbase started out entirely as just any other doujin project and would have been circulated casually even in the PC-98 days and moving into Seihou during ZUN's break, but I wouldn't call that a fanbase. Late 2002 -> 2003 is indeed when it started to get popular, as far as I can tell: the activity on ZUN's site started going up, and the THWiki poll numbers shot up between the first few polls. EoSD was advertised late 2002 on Watanabe Seisakusho (i.e. French Bread)'s website, which helped its popularity. PCB's full version is where it exploded.

[cuc]

Touhou's fanbase started out entirely as just any other doujin project and would have been circulated casually even in the PC-98 days and moving into Seihou during ZUN's break, but I wouldn't call that a fanbase. Late 2002 -> 2003 is indeed when it started to get popular, as far as I can tell: the activity on ZUN's site started going up, and the THWiki poll numbers shot up between the first few polls. EoSD was advertised late 2002 on Watanabe Seisakusho (i.e. French Bread)'s website, which helped its popularity. PCB's full version is where it exploded.

To clarify, Watanabe Seisakusho's "advertisement" of EoSD was not in any business sense; it was simply the person updating their home page saying "I've played this awesome game, and here's my fan art!"

This was a pivotal event in kickstarting Touhou's public awareness, probably because the update happened at exactly the right time: on Sep 5, before the mass-produced edition of EoSD was released in doujin stores on Sep 27. It built anticipation - people had now heard of this great new game, but they had to wait for another three weeks to play it.

[Vilikusan]

She did write an article about her, you know. Judging by her second note, she didn't meet her, but would remember if she did.

I heard about Symposium, but didn't saw it before and wasn't fully aware what it really is, so thank you for the hyperlink. I will try to go through it during my examination session^^.

[Shiina Tamai]

How old it the Tohou fanbase in general. Has it gotten a cult following as soon as HRTP was released or only after EOSD? Is the western fanbase younger than the Japanese one?

On a related note, when did Westerners first start noticing Touhou?

[Suspicious person]

On a related note, when did Westerners first start noticing Touhou?

Around 2007-2008 I believe. It have a lot to do with IOSYS flash videos or viral ones such as the McRoll'd, which might've gotten some people curious about the series. The OST got uploaded on youtube around this time too. At any rate, 2009 was the year where western communities of otaku and japanese stuff lovers started to show some real interest in the series.

[Drake]

There was a boom in western interest in Touhou that roughly followed the same boom in the japanese fandom, which itself followed the splurge of new works in 2007, prompting an increase in doujin activity that managed to reach western audiences from many directions.

[the old guy]

Thanks to Drake and Starxsword for answering my question about Eirin, i didn't know about CiLR not mentioning Eirin killing the emissaries, so maybe it was retconned out, someone should add that to the wiki.
Also Eirin mellowing out because of years of spending time with Kaguya makes me wanna ship them.

Anyways, moving on the subject of the growth of touhou's fanbase:

Around 2007-2008 I believe. It have a lot to do with IOSYS flash videos or viral ones such as the McRoll'd, which might've gotten some people curious about the series. The OST got uploaded on youtube around this time too. At any rate, 2009 was the year where western communities of otaku and japanese stuff lovers started to show some real interest in the series.

2007 seems like the year it started to become a thing, judging from gensokyo.org and walfas.org's archives.
Also apparently a english fan base has been around since 2004(!), according to the wayback machine. Also apparently MaullarMaullar has been posting here on the forums since 2006, i think MaullarMaullar might be the oldest poster here, good job Maullar! You perverted old coot! (If anyone else here has been around for longer, let me know.)

Also, on the Japanese front of the fanbase, HERE is the first ever touhou doujin ever made, Septentrion for a Dead Princess, released only a few months after the release of EOSD, and based on the game Septentrion. I am sharing this because i think people will be interested. Also it has a blond reimu for some reason.

[Tengukami]

2007 sounds about right to me. That's when I started seeing Touhou stuff pouring onto my favorite haunts, anyway, and led me here the following year.

[Failure McFailFace]

2007 sounds about right to me. That's when I started seeing Touhou stuff pouring onto my favorite haunts, anyway, and led me here the following year.

I think I saw a video of EoSD gameplay a ridiculously long time ago, when I was still in elementary school and using my grandfather's PC over summer break.

I think I saw Marisa Stole the Precious Thing on YouTube also sometime in elementary school, when I was using my dad's PC for Internet, but I didn't really get to know Touhou until 6th grade when I got my laptop.

And 2007 was when I was in kindergarten :3

[the old guy]

And 2007 was when I was in kindergarten :3

Um.....what? the average age of an kindergartener is 5, which would make you 12 now.
I think your the youngest person here.
Unless your joking.

[Failure McFailFace]

Um.....what? the average age of an kindergartener is 5, which would make you 12 now.
I think your the youngest person here.
Unless your joking.

I cant even math

I'm actually 15, when I said that I was in kindergarten in 2007, i accidentally meant when it ended.

So kindergarten in 2006, and 15 now. I'm actually older than most of my classmates because I was born almost right after the cut-off point for registering for kindergarten in 2006.

[Clarste]

There must've been a decently sized Western fanbase before 2007, because people were already translating all these doujinshi. Maybe I got into it a bit before it "got big", but at the time it already seemed like some big new thing with tons of memes and fanart everywhere (that everyone was already familiar with). I would say 2007 was the end of its growth period (although of course another big wave hit after UFO).

[Tengukami]

It sounds like we all have similarish anecdotes, but I'd be curious to see quantifiable data, too, e.g. trending for search terms like "Touhou" over the past ten years, and so on.

[stassy]

Do we have date for touhou doujin music boom?
Surely there should have been already some doujin music scene (the oldest doujin music I recall are Beatmania ones), but what caused this massive shift?

I also recall that the 1st time I searched for Touhou infos, I went to shmup.com forums but people were quite critical about the series, especially IN back then, did the touhou doujin scene really attract the western fanbase instead of the original games?

[Clarste]

I don't think hardcore shmup fans have ever been too fond of the series, because it attracts people who aren't hardcore shmup fans. There's just a certain level of defensiveness about it: "you're not a real shmup fan, you're just playing what's popular right now".

[Drake]

plus a large portion of them never actually played the games and judged the series mostly on its fandom anyways

it's a slightly different story now that many people good at touhou went on to take records in other games

[Camilo113]

Ok, so I got several questions, most about the lore of Touhou, that I can't find an answer to it no matter where I look. I know here are people that are very knowledgeable about backstories and the interpretation of some info. So...

In the Shining Needle Castle article of the Touhou Wiki it's written that the Castle is supposed to be in an "entirely-inverted world". It's supposed to be a world separated from Gensokyo like Senkai? Where is this stated? I can't recall reading something like that in DDC story nor in any manga. (It could be my memory though)

Another. The answer of this question is influenced by the first one's. Where was the Shining Needle Castle before the events of DDC? (If the world mentioned in the first question does exist, then this is already answered) It was floating around Gensokyo near the Youkai Mountain? I know the Castle supposedly appeared in Gensokyo long time ago.

It's stated that the Castle appeared (by the power of the Miracle Mallet) and shortly after it turned upside-down. Then, when it appeared, it appeared floating in the sky or just like a normal castle settled in the ground? I know it's a silly question, but it annoys me when I try to imagine the scene...

Iku's species is "Messenger of the Dragon Palace" in kanji and ZUN did say in SoPm that the palace does exist, it's "like the Lunar Capital" and there are connection between it and Gensokyo. So, am I suppose to think that Iku has some sort of connection to the Moon?

This one is more technical. The kanji sei (清) in Seiran's name (清蘭), if you break the kanji, then you get the character ao (青) which means "blue". Is this just a coincidence, regarding Seiran's actual appearance (blue hair and blue-ish clothes) or it does have a deeper meaning?

Thanks beforehand.

[UTW]

Do we have date for touhou doujin music boom?
Surely there should have been already some doujin music scene (the oldest doujin music I recall are Beatmania ones), but what caused this massive shift?

Here is what is thought to be the first album, at least. Like other Touhou doujin it probably took off with PCB-IN. Just from looking on the wiki there was a big jump in 2005 with the number of circles attending Reitaisai 2 and Comiket 68, but of course this is an incomplete listing.

Iku's species is "Messenger of the Dragon Palace" in kanji and ZUN did say in SoPm that the palace does exist, it's "like the Lunar Capital" and there are connection between it and Gensokyo. So, am I suppose to think that Iku has some sort of connection to the Moon?

Thanks beforehand.

I don't know how strong Iku's own connection is, but there is still seemingly a connection. Anyway, though not said outright, between SoPm and CiLR with the Urashima Tarou chapter, I would think the Dragon Palace is less "like" the Lunar Capital and more the same thing. Or at least some location in the Lunar Capital.

And the way I read the whole interview is that there's a connection between all the extra dimensional places in Touhou linked to hermits and celestials (heaven, lunar capital, Senkai, Kasen's place, etc)

[Clarste]

The Lunar Capital is the Dragon Palace, because Yorihime lied to Urashima Taro about where he was. It was a security measure to hide the true nature of the Lunar Capital from foreigners. Not to mention the whole "mountains and sea" themes of Bougetsushou: the moon is clearly "the sea", metaphorically. Lastly, in WaHH they talk about how dragons are born on the ground, rise to the sky, and ascend to the heavens, as part of their natural lifecycle. The most important dragons live in the heavens.

[Drake]

"A completely inverted world" (何もかも逆さまな世界) is the title of Stage 5. It doesn't mean anything besides that everything about the castle is upside-down. As far as where it was before the incident, I'm not aware if it's ever said, but the Stage 5 theme is called "The Shining Needle Castle Descending From the Skies", so perhaps it was hidden in the clouds before. As for before the castle entered Gensokyo, it was stuck in the "world of the oni" from the effects of the Mallet for whatever reason, and eventually passed out of human belief.

As an aside, the name "Kishinjou" and the more casual referring of "Sakasajou" (Inverted Castle) both have connections to Castlevania: SotN. It has Dracula's "Inverted Castle" of course, but also there's its creator, Maxim Kischine (マクシーム・キシン, makushiimu kishin); hence, キシン城 ("kishinjou", castle of Kischine).


Seiran's name having a "blue" seems like a coincidence, but there's a more interesting relation. 晴嵐 (also "seiran") means mountain vapor, which was Reisen's weather in SWR. Moreover, 晴嵐 was the name of a floatplane for the Japanese Navy in WWII. Meanwhile, 零戦 ("reisen") was also a fighter plane for the IJN during WWII. This is likely not a coincidence given other WWII imagery surrounding the moon stories.


(EDIT: thanks for those wiki edits gilde)

[Clarste]

As for before the castle entered Gensokyo, it was stuck in the "world of the oni" from the effects of the Mallet for whatever reason, and eventually passed out of human belief.

Oh yeah, the "land of the oni" is supposed to be another alternate dimension. Satori mentions it in Koishi's ULiL ending, as part of a big list of examples of other worlds.

[Leon゠Helsing]

As an aside, the name "Kishinjou" and the more casual referring of "Sakasajou" (Inverted Castle) both have connections to Castlevania: SotN. It has Dracula's "Inverted Castle" of course, but also there's its creator, Maxim Kischine (マクシーム・キシン, makushiimu kishin); hence, キシン城 ("kishinjou", castle of Kischine).

Actually, Maxim sort-of created the alternate castle (more like splitting Castlevania into two dimensional "layers" due to Maxim's collecting Dracula's remains ended up forming an evil soul in him) in Harmony of Dissonance but not the inverted castle in Symphony of the Night. No official connection has been made between those two castles AFAIK.

[Drake]

got my games mixed up, still :castlevania:

[Leon゠Helsing]

Eh, no worries, HoD was pretty much intent-wise SotN for the GBA. :V

[Drake]

To note, what exactly Iku's job means to the moon (and related questions) is debated amongst the japanese fandom as well. Because it was an interview, ZUN didn't really have much time to prepare for the question and craft a thorough response, so it's difficult to glean much meaning out of the quote besides its face value, and he hasn't since elaborated on it.

[Camilo113]

Thanks for the replies! Now I understand more about the subject.

Seiran's name having a "blue" seems like a coincidence, but there's a more interesting relation. 晴嵐 (also "seiran") means mountain vapor, which was Reisen's weather in SWR. Moreover, 晴嵐 was the name of a floatplane for the Japanese Navy in WWII. Meanwhile, 零戦 ("reisen") was also a fighter plane for the IJN during WWII. This is likely not a coincidence given other WWII imagery surrounding the moon stories.

Those are really interesting coincidences I agree, the most shocking would be the meaning of  晴嵐 being "Mountain Vapor" and at the same time pronounced seiran (all while being the weather of Reisen in SWR) ... I don't even... but they are all likely coincidences... or maybe no... damn ZUN!

"A completely inverted world" (何もかも逆さまな世界) is the title of Stage 5. It doesn't mean anything besides that everything about the castle is upside-down. As far as where it was before the incident, I'm not aware if it's ever said, but the Stage 5 theme is called "The Shining Needle Castle Descending From the Skies", so perhaps it was hidden in the clouds before. As for before the castle entered Gensokyo, it was stuck in the "world of the oni" from the effects of the Mallet for whatever reason, and eventually passed out of human belief.

I knew there was no such thing as an "inverted world" but as I don't know japanese I couldn't support my thoughts. By the way, thanks Glide for editing it out haha.

I don't know how strong Iku's own connection is, but there is still seemingly a connection. Anyway, though not said outright, between SoPm and CiLR with the Urashima Tarou chapter, I would think the Dragon Palace is less "like" the Lunar Capital and more the same thing. Or at least some location in the Lunar Capital.

And the way I read the whole interview is that there's a connection between all the extra dimensional places in Touhou linked to hermits and celestials (heaven, lunar capital, Senkai, Kasen's place, etc)

The Lunar Capital is the Dragon Palace, because Yorihime lied to Urashima Taro about where he was. It was a security measure to hide the true nature of the Lunar Capital from foreigners. Not to mention the whole "mountains and sea" themes of Bougetsushou: the moon is clearly "the sea", metaphorically. Lastly, in WaHH they talk about how dragons are born on the ground, rise to the sky, and ascend to the heavens, as part of their natural lifecycle. The most important dragons live in the heavens.

To note, what exactly Iku's job means to the moon (and related questions) is debated amongst the japanese fandom as well. Because it was an interview, ZUN didn't really have much time to prepare for the question and craft a thorough response, so it's difficult to glean much meaning out of the quote besides its face value, and he hasn't since elaborated on it.

At the end, the Dragon Palace was the Lunar Capital. Makes you wonder what does ZUN has in mind with this kind of connections, but as Drake pointed out they may be rushed answers to unexpected questions. Still, I find it quite mysterious and intriguing hmm.

One thing I forgot to ask. I'm a little confused about how the personality of Remilia really is. I already read everything concerning her in the official books and games, but it was long ago and it's not like the books and games are only about Remilia, so all the info got scattered in my mind and now I can't remember/understand very well how she is supposed to be, it's al vague, but not concrete. It's there a possibility to get a summarized text of her personality?

Thanks beforehand as always and many thanks to the users who took their time to answer all my questions! Cheers!

[Sagus]

One thing I forgot to ask. I'm a little confused about how the personality of Remilia really is. I already read everything concerning her in the official books and games, but it was long ago and it's not like the books and games are only about Remilia, so all the info got scattered in my mind and now I can't remember/understand very well how she is supposed to be, it's al vague, but not concrete. It's there a possibility to get a summarized text of her personality?

Remilia's childish, very proud, pretty sharp, polite, capricious, easily bored, and impulsive. She enjoys novel things and isn't above playing along in silly games/allowing herself to be manipulated if it means staving off boredom (like in Aya's scenario in SWR and basically her role in SSiB). She can act in a really overblown and grandiose fashion, but she usually only does that during incidents. Her favorite blood type is B.

[Tiamat]

Remilia is a sophisticated brat trying to be a sophisticated b..... PRINCESS!

Far as I can tell, she possibly really does have the wisdom of a 500 year old being (especially if Akyuu's speculations on how she handled Sakuya are true. She at least probably has good youkai management abilities considering that most fairies stick around as employees despite being free to leave), but the temperament and desires of a bratty child.

[Kaizaki]

To those who have read ZUN's writing in Japanese, what's his writing style like? Specifically in DiPP C62/3, IN stage titles and descriptions, IN music comments, CiLR and greetings/introductions. (I'll be fine with just a (not-too-)general statement though.)

I like the translations on the wiki, but I don't know how much reflects his actual tone versus the translators' own wording.

It would be a while before I can read them myself, so satisfying my curiosity will be much appreciated.

Cheers!

Would it be alright to bump my previous question?

I have two more to ask:
- Did ZUN say anything about DiPP C62's story being solvable, like Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None? Or is it simply a hoax?
- We learnt from a recent interview that ZUN composes music before he creates the stages/bosses. Does he compose based on a title he has in mind, or does he name a piece after finishing it?

Please and thank you!

It sounds like we all have similarish anecdotes, but I'd be curious to see quantifiable data, too, e.g. trending for search terms like "Touhou" over the past ten years, and so on.

Clearly very late, but still: http://goo.gl/tHliVN

For fun:
http://goo.gl/W0bHzO
http://goo.gl/79HsN9

Needless to say that the parameters can be changed.

[Camilo113]

Thanks Sagus and Tiamat! Now everything is more clear now!

If you don't mind I'll use some of the info for the wiki in Remilia's Personality.

Again, thanks for everything!