Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer  (Read 195610 times)

CyberAngel

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #630 on: March 03, 2015, 05:34:30 PM »
Unless, you know, it means Sakuya possibly defeating Eirin and Kaguya during Imperishable Night. Honestly, it's not that hard to pick up the context of that Lishy's post.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #631 on: March 03, 2015, 11:08:00 PM »
Either way, she didn't kill them. Point is that the post in question was just full of misinformation and exaggeration, so there's no need to take it seriously.

Prime32

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #632 on: March 03, 2015, 11:21:51 PM »
Lunarians are only immortal in the sense that they're perfectly healthy, both physically and spiritually, meaning that they never grow old or sick. They can almost certainly tank more damage than a normal human, but they're not indestructible.
Kaguya is a Lunarian, but she gained a completely different kind of immortality from drinking the Hourai Elixir. Her body can be killed, but her soul cannot, and it will restore her body to full health whenever things go too badly wrong (even if it has to create a new body from thin air).

Also, most of the time when a Touhou character acts like they're going to kill someone, they're just talking big.
For humans the physical body is the core of their being; mental/spiritual stuff is important but secondary (i.e. a human can survive depression, but not decapitation). Youkai are the opposite - their spiritual side is what defines them, and their physical bodies are secondary (albeit the exact ratio varies from species to species). Asserting your identity is to most youkai what food and water are to humans, and vice versa. Under the Spell Card rules, talking big is one of the few ways youkai have left to be youkai, so almost all of them do it. The human characters do it because... when in Rome, do as the Gensokyans do.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 11:23:35 PM by Prime32 »

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #633 on: March 04, 2015, 01:47:16 AM »
Lunarians are only immortal in the sense that they're perfectly healthy, both physically and spiritually, meaning that they never grow old or sick. They can almost certainly tank more damage than a normal human, but they're not indestructible.

Just for those that don't know, this is 100% confirmed in canon.  Toyohime (at least, I think it was her) explicitly thinks to herself that even Lunarians can die someday in CiLR.

Well, actually, now that I think about it, I think the wording was that the moon wasn't COMPLETELY pure (such purity like that is impossible) and thus they could theretically grow old and die too.  It'd just take a ludicrous amount of time.  Mweh, too lazy to look it up right now.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #634 on: March 04, 2015, 03:48:09 AM »
I have nothing of use to add but I must say:
Also, most of the time when a Touhou character acts like they're going to kill someone, they're just talking big.
For humans the physical body is the core of their being; mental/spiritual stuff is important but secondary (i.e. a human can survive depression, but not decapitation). Youkai are the opposite - their spiritual side is what defines them, and their physical bodies are secondary (albeit the exact ratio varies from species to species). Asserting your identity is to most youkai what food and water are to humans, and vice versa. Under the Spell Card rules, talking big is one of the few ways youkai have left to be youkai, so almost all of them do it.
This is such a good summary of general youkai biology.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #635 on: March 04, 2015, 04:05:55 AM »
Lunarians are only immortal in the sense that they're perfectly healthy, both physically and spiritually, meaning that they never grow old or sick. They can almost certainly tank more damage than a normal human, but they're not indestructible.
Kaguya is a Lunarian, but she gained a completely different kind of immortality from drinking the Hourai Elixir. Her body can be killed, but her soul cannot, and it will restore her body to full health whenever things go too badly wrong (even if it has to create a new body from thin air).

My friend suggest that there's other way to kill Hourai Immortal, he said this "If you can't destroy their physique, destroy their mental". Basically, Mind Rape them so much until their brain fried out and stop thinking altogether (just like JJBA Cars). What is the use of living body and soul if you unable to think anymore?

By this theory, Reisen is possibly the one who can truly defeat Hourai Immortals permanently.

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #636 on: March 04, 2015, 04:10:30 AM »
That's not killing them, that's debilitating them. And there's nothing saying that they wouldn't just have their minds fixed after regenerating.

At any rate, it's not something discussed in canon.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #637 on: March 04, 2015, 04:22:54 AM »
That's not killing them, that's debilitating them. And there's nothing saying that after regenerating, they would just have their minds fixed. At any rate, it's not something discussed in canon.

Ah yes, that's what I meant. But it's still possible.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #638 on: March 04, 2015, 05:15:28 AM »
I know that Lunarians won't die from old age, but that would mean they stop aging physically at a certain point, right?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #639 on: March 04, 2015, 07:29:04 AM »
Perhaps, but those sorts of specifics haven't been talked about. This turns to questions like "how does having children in Pure Lands work anyway" and so on. Things shouldn't age at all, to be clear, but obviously the Capital isn't overrun by babies (not that they pop up often).

If I were to make a guess, it would be that Lunarian appearance can be modified through magic/technology, and that the appearance of age is a conscious choice made for reasons of wabi, much like the overall design aesthetic of the Capital (and also the natural aesthetic of the Netherworld).

EDIT: Now that I think about it, although the Capital's design aesthetic is more wabi, inflicting the appearance of age is a more sabi thing, which I'm tempted to say Lunarians might go out of their way to avoid? But then again, we haven't seen any Lunarians specifically look aged, just "not children". Maybe it has nothing to do with wabi-sabi after all and it's just "this is the appearance I prefer".
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 07:42:56 AM by Drake »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #640 on: March 04, 2015, 07:59:49 AM »
My friend suggest that there's other way to kill Hourai Immortal, he said this "If you can't destroy their physique, destroy their mental". Basically, Mind Rape them so much until their brain fried out and stop thinking altogether (just like JJBA Cars). What is the use of living body and soul if you unable to think anymore?

By this theory, Reisen is possibly the one who can truly defeat Hourai Immortals permanently.

Over the course of her long life that she goes over in CiLR, Mokou basically went from sane to insane to sane again, IIRC.  (or at least depressed to psychotic killer to depressed to mellow to whatever). So while breaking her mentally might work for a few decades, eventually she'll get bored of being insane and just go sane again apparently.  Or whatever.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #641 on: March 04, 2015, 10:02:52 AM »
If you want to disable an immortal, just bury them in concrete at the bottom of the ocean. Or tie them up. This isn't complicated.

Lunarians are essentially elves. You can probably just assume that anything related to their birth rates or growth rates are essentially the same as elves.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #642 on: March 04, 2015, 12:22:10 PM »
Over the course of her long life that she goes over in CiLR, Mokou basically went from sane to insane to sane again, IIRC.  (or at least depressed to psychotic killer to depressed to mellow to whatever). So while breaking her mentally might work for a few decades, eventually she'll get bored of being insane and just go sane again apparently.  Or whatever.

What I meant is to completely destroy her mental. Sane or insane, your brain still processing of your surrounding. This one is dedicated to shut down her consciousness (like Koishi) and succumb her into permanent catatonia. She's alive but unable to move or think.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:25:43 PM by Damien »

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #643 on: March 04, 2015, 12:49:50 PM »
Perhaps it's alright to say that the Lunarian society is like the Pillar Men from Jojo. They make their own culture and customs. Reproduce among themselves, but not too often. The babies age like normal, but the individual age is what matters. Even if they're all really old, they'll still be treated as children by the older predecessors like Eirin.
Was there anything said about how big their population is? We know that it's a megapolis, but I don't remember that being mentioned. Or maybe the Moon Rabbits also live there?

Anyway, it's impossible to kill a Hourai, but beating them is one thing. And it's not really that complicated, like Clarste has said.
Anyone who has space manipulation like Yukari and Miko could easily banish a Hourai like Mokou(Kaguya is a different case). Basically anything you can do that doesn't inflict physical damage to immobilize, trap, or seal them is enough.
Or you can do it the hard way and outpace them in a fight until they can no longer endure the mental pain, like in IN.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 04:17:39 PM by monhan »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #644 on: March 04, 2015, 01:41:58 PM »
If you want to disable an immortal, just bury them in concrete at the bottom of the ocean. Or tie them up. This isn't complicated.
I'm pretty sure ZUN had accounted for that when writing IN. During those Taito years, he didn't read all those pulp novel and manga for nothing. Alice said they can move their souls anywhere they want, and reform their bodies there.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #645 on: March 04, 2015, 04:21:58 PM »
I'm pretty sure ZUN had accounted for that when writing IN. During those Taito years, he didn't read all those pulp novel and manga for nothing. Alice said they can move their souls anywhere they want, and reform their bodies there.

Without dying first?
Though that may not be an issue if they still have a way to kill themselves when trapped.

Though where is the source? Is it Alice's dialogue in IN?

CyberAngel

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #646 on: March 04, 2015, 05:25:00 PM »
What I meant is to completely destroy her mental. Sane or insane, your brain still processing of your surrounding. This one is dedicated to shut down her consciousness (like Koishi) and succumb her into permanent catatonia. She's alive but unable to move or think.

Mokou did succumb to apathy for hundreds of years, and for all we know it could've gone that far. If anything, living that long is likely to result in something like that for an otherwise ordinary human like her. Shutting the brain down completely, however, sounds like it's possible only by brain damage. Which is physical harm and would be healed swiftly in this case.

Also, quite amusing that you mention Koishi, since even without consciousness she's very much active. Now just imagine Mokou going on a Heart-Throbbing Adventure...

Though where is the source? Is it Alice's dialogue in IN?

Yes.

I'm actually amazed, being a Hourai immortal just lost its major perceived drawback!

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #647 on: March 04, 2015, 05:31:33 PM »
What I meant is to completely destroy her mental. Sane or insane, your brain still processing of your surrounding. This one is dedicated to shut down her consciousness (like Koishi) and succumb her into permanent catatonia. She's alive but unable to move or think.

So she'd be brain-dead?  If she's brain dead, I think her dead brain would just ressurect.  Because that's what dead things do under the hourai elixir.  You can't just disable a Hourai immortal's body parts, and as the brain is a body part, I'm sure it's included. The elixir returns them to their previous state eventually (pretty sure this is stated in Imperishable Night dialogue, maybe when they were discussing what happens when you eat parts of Mokou)

Pretty sure the Hourai elixir immortalizes both one's body AND one's psyche/soul/mentality, too, but I forget where that is stated (could have sworn it's stated somewhere... IN's dialogue comes to mind here too)

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #648 on: March 04, 2015, 07:13:44 PM »
What I meant is to completely destroy her mental. Sane or insane, your brain still processing of your surrounding. This one is dedicated to shut down her consciousness (like Koishi) and succumb her into permanent catatonia. She's alive but unable to move or think.
On the hourai immortals, from what I understand, the body is shaped after its soul, and the hourai elixir isolates the soul and keeps it intact : no matter what happens to the body, it'll always go back to the state that matches the soul, that is the state of how the body was back at the time the hourai person became, well, a hourai person. That said, since they can remember things that happened after they became hourai whenever they resurrect (knowledge that they didn't have back around the time they became immortals), maybe their consciousness is tied to the soul rather than their brain. This might bring the issue of whether they regenerate/resurrect automatically or manually ; and whether they, outside of their bodies, can perceive time. Personally, I think "eternity" would fit hourai people better rather than "immortality", as the latter seems to focus only on the killable or unkillable part rather than the fact that they simply cannot disappear (especially since the concept of "death" gets shooed anyway).

btw, I think Mokou's boredom period in CiLR is pretty much "I am bored to death but I can't die" and is just plain old boredom (like, the kind of boredom anyone would feel if they were bored for centuries straight). Besides It's not like she is mad nowadays. Maybe she was just pissed for a very long time, if anything else.

Though that may not be an issue if they still have a way to kill themselves when trapped.
I do believe Mokou have a spellcard where she goes YOLO and blow her body up in ISC. Don't ask me how her clothes regenerates.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #649 on: March 04, 2015, 07:48:37 PM »
Don't ask me how her clothes regenerates.
The clothes are part of her body. Duh.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #650 on: March 04, 2015, 09:08:47 PM »
Well, she does have a lot of charms on her clothes, doesn't she? Maybe they're there for more than just fire-proofing and she applied them because she got tired of the after-ressurection nakedness effect.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #651 on: March 04, 2015, 10:16:21 PM »
Well, she does have a lot of charms on her clothes, doesn't she? Maybe they're there for more than just fire-proofing and she applied them because she got tired of the after-ressurection nakedness effect.
Or maybe Kaguya cast her spell of eternity on their clothing, after the two of them saw each other naked too many times. Her ability seems ideal for that sort of situation.

Following the discussion regarding Hourai immortality, would this mean that the lunar veil won't affect Kaguya?

Context (taken from CiLR, Chapter 6):
Quote
The lunar veil was a mysterious robe that allowed one to fly through the skies. At the same time it made one lose their spirit when they wore it, so the wearer would have no control over themselves. [...]
This veil was made so when a Lunarian on Earth was called back to the moon, they would have no lingering attachments to Earth. [...]

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #652 on: March 05, 2015, 02:05:02 AM »
Following the discussion regarding Hourai immortality, would this mean that the lunar veil won't affect Kaguya?
That's an inspired question. I don't think there'll be a definite answer, but look forward to being corrected by another poster :)

However I can imagine many years ago, a young ZUN reading Tale of the Bamboo Cutter, saying to himself, "what if Kaguya-hime disobeyed the messengers of the moon even after putting on their robe?" Thus one of the seeds of Touhou was planted.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #653 on: March 05, 2015, 03:38:37 AM »
Without dying first?
Though that may not be an issue if they still have a way to kill themselves when trapped.
Any scenario that just involves tying them up and leaving them be will simply kill them of hunger/thirst eventually (Mokou dies of starvation a lot since sometimes she just doesn't bother eating), in which case they'll just move their soul around and regenerate outside their prison. There really is no way of getting rid of them permanently (unless black holes can also pull in souls, I guess)
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #654 on: March 05, 2015, 05:52:32 AM »
Any scenario that just involves tying them up and leaving them be will simply kill them of hunger/thirst eventually (Mokou dies of starvation a lot since sometimes she just doesn't bother eating), in which case they'll just move their soul around and regenerate outside their prison. There really is no way of getting rid of them permanently (unless black holes can also pull in souls, I guess)
Oh yeah, forgot that little detail. Who thought it would be convenient in such a discussion?
So I suppose the good ol' banishing to another dimension, freezing them solid, or sealing them. I don't suppose dying will be an issue with those methods, since I don't think it's possible for them to move their soul and reform themselves across dimension. As far as I know though.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #655 on: March 05, 2015, 11:24:13 AM »
Quote
What I meant is to completely destroy her mental. Sane or insane, your brain still processing of your surrounding. This one is dedicated to shut down her consciousness (like Koishi) and succumb her into permanent catatonia. She's alive but unable to move or think.

What? That's silly, Reisen can't do that, at least not to Mokou. She is, after all, the assassin Kaguya sends at Mokou and Mokou keeps beating her down. I can't imagine Kaguya sending Tewi at Mokou, Tewi isn't that stupid.
As far as I can tell the Hourai Elixir makes the soul invincible or something. As another poster points out, Alice mentions this, as she is studying souls.

Quote
So I suppose the good ol' banishing to another dimension, freezing them solid, or sealing them. I don't suppose dying will be an issue with those methods, since I don't think it's possible for them to move their soul and reform themselves across dimension. As far as I know though.

Not sure about Mokou, but according to Akyuu, Kaguya can manipulate parallel timelines.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #656 on: March 05, 2015, 03:42:31 PM »
Contrary to popular belief, freezing people will, in fact, kill them.

Sending them to another dimension will work, I guess, but they do literally have all the time in the world to find a way to come back, so...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 03:44:54 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #657 on: March 08, 2015, 08:24:03 AM »
- If physical weapons like (swords/guns/etc...) does not effective work against youkai in general (can't kill them 'definitively'), can a youkai beat another youkai to death definitively using the same physical weapons or bare hand since they both supernatural/fantasy beings?

Let say a human manage to kill a youkai(A) using a regular sword by cutting him/her in half, afterward the same youkai(A) regenerate.
Now another youkai(B) come and use the same sword as the previous human to kill the same youkai(A), does this time youkai(A) die definitively or not...? If not, would either one of them be able to kill the other one definitively if they fight using there bare hand (instead of the physical sword) since they both supernatural beings?

Note: No eating involve and the sword in question is just a regular sword (not enchanted nor carry any spiritual property whatsoever).
I would just like to know what you guys think may happen in such circumstance.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 08:28:19 AM by Biakmon »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #658 on: March 08, 2015, 09:00:00 AM »
I really don't think it matter who wields it, it's the method that's important. If a youkai could use sealing techniques it wouldn't be any different from a human using them, either.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #659 on: March 08, 2015, 10:17:03 AM »
I really don't think it matter who wields it, it's the method that's important. If a youkai could use sealing techniques it wouldn't be any different from a human using them, either.

I'm not really sure if I understand fully what you trying to say... when did I refers to 'sealing techniques' here.
Are you saying that you believe that irrespectively of the medium use (spiritual/physical weapons or even fist in the case of a youkai), they (normal human/youkai) may not really be able to kill another youkai definitively if not for sealing them?

So even if 'Utsuho blast Mystia entire body' or 'Youmu cut Wriggle to tiny pieces' may bot effectively kill them for good...