Miscellaneous Questions 5: Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Koneko]

About the "Bring back Mima" problem:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like most of the fans are more interested in Windows-game related stuffs more than the old PC-98 titles. Eventually, they will have very little information about her, or they will have no information at all (Not everyone who are fan of Touhou can overcome the lazyness and read the wiki, as far as I know)

[Reddyne]

Speaking with a couple of her fans and observing some of her appearances in doujin materials can help. Here's a general run-down of the resulting impression I've gotten from others regarding why they are fans and said doujin stuff: The Marisa mentorship angle ties her to one of their other favorite characters in an influential manner. She also feels brash and confident like Marisa but in a more mature, refined way. She can be versatile in terms of characterization as she can play a hero or villain yet will still be in character due to her self-interest. Also she feels like an influential figure like Yukari or Mamizou but doesn't feel overpowered enough to always succeed.

It's just how these fans are perceiving the character, but people have said enough about their interpretation of the character to give her some distinction and interesting personality traits.

[Clarste]

About the "Bring back Mima" problem:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like most of the fans are more interested in Windows-game related stuffs more than the old PC-98 titles. Eventually, they will have very little information about her, or they will have no information at all (Not everyone who are fan of Touhou can overcome the lazyness and read the wiki, as far as I know)

Is that really a problem though? It assumes that there's a value in knowing who she is, when as far as the later stories are concerned PC-98 is basically non-canon. Knowing who she is would probably be more confusing than helpful when it comes to understanding Marisa, etc.

[Tengukami]

I don't even think it's possible to accurately say with any verifiable citation that there is one reason why a small subset of fans harp on Mima. Some are trolling, some are joking, some are jumping on the bandwagon, some are genuinely interested in the character, and so on. It's not really a question with one answer.

[aListers]

Is that really a problem though? It assumes that there's a value in knowing who she is, when as far as the later stories are concerned PC-98 is basically non-canon.

This is my problem with it all. This little misunderstanding is why I want a return of Mima. It's almost unfair to leave her out as I do quite like her as a character. It is almost a yearning to learn more about the characters that people seem to have forgotten about and I see Mima as a step in doing that. Only if Mima came back then would people possibly consider that the PC-98 games are canon. I know that most will still be in denial (in fact, things have been purposefully re-translated because people are so adamant in their belief that the pc-98 series is non-canon) but it's just that I want this interesting character to be brought into the light that she deserves. This wish is the same towards the PC-98 series characters who certain people deliberately forget.

I know much of her personality is in Marisa but isn't it interesting to have the character who you get most of that personality from?

[Clarste]

This is my problem with it all. This little misunderstanding is why I want a return of Mima. It's almost unfair to leave her out as I do quite like her as a character. It is almost a yearning to learn more about the characters that people seem to have forgotten about and I see Mima as a step in doing that. Only if Mima came back then would people possibly consider that the PC-98 games are canon. I know that most will still be in denial (in fact, things have been purposefully re-translated because people are so adamant in their belief that the pc-98 series is non-canon) but it's just that I want this interesting character to be brought into the light that she deserves. This wish is the same towards the PC-98 series characters who certain people deliberately forget.

I know much of her personality is in Marisa but isn't it interesting to have the character who you get most of that personality from?

I don't see how it's a misunderstanding. Nothing from before EoSD has shown up again except for very specific things that ZUN brought back in slightly different forms that better suit the new setting (since it was originally quite vague how things tied together; he was clearly much more interested in worldbuilding starting in EoSD). Even irrelevant side characters like Rumia get their own entries in PMiSS, so why the heck would ZUN leave out his formerly major players if not to distance the series from them. He brought back Marisa, Reimu, Alice, and Yuuka, implying that he actually likes those characters and had plans to fit them in the setting. He did not bring back Meira or Shingyoku. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're in denial. Whether or not it's actually canon is completely irrelevant because none of the things that happened then matter or are ever mentioned by anyone.

Also Reimu's name is spelled differently in PC-98.

[Colticide]

If I recall Zun had mentioned to a question about PC 98 characters and said something along the lines of how they are there but no focus is on them.

[Clarste]

If I recall Zun had mentioned to a question about PC 98 characters and said something along the lines of how they are there but no focus is on them.

They also don't appear as background cameos or get casually referenced in dialog, like other characters do. They might as well not exist, for how little they influence the setting. Frankly Villager A from FS is probably more relevant to know than Mima.

[Romantique Tp]

You have to consider that almost nobody in Japan played (or will ever be able to play) the PC-98 games. ZUN can't just randomly throw references to PC-98 characters and incidents because only a very small number of people would get it. For a character to show up in a book they would first have to be reintroduced to the series as if they were new characters, otherwise people will only get confused.

Just because a character isn't influencing current events that doesn't mean they can't be given a proper backstory and be made relevant in the future.

[Tengukami]

Only if Mima came back then would people possibly consider that the PC-98 games are canon.

Well, looks like you'd have to argue with ZUN about that one. As he's made perfectly clear in interviews, emails and panel discussions, PC-98 might as well be regarded as a separate, derivative work; that the characters are pretty much "elsewhere".

Having said that, there is literally nothing stopping anyone from thoroughly enjoying PC-98: from playing the games, talking about the characters, doing fanart or fanfics on them, cooking up theories and so forth. PC-98 is great stuff on its own, and there's really no need to try to shoehorn it into Touhou canon.

[Romantique Tp]

You have to take the years these statements were made in into account. They're all from before 2005, back then info on the PC-98 games was even more scarce than it is today, and the Touhou Wiki in english didn't exist (to this day the english wiki is often used as a source of PC-98 info by the japanese fanbase). These statements were also made in response to fan questions. If he gave them a straight answer, that would encourage people to make even more questions related to the PC-98 games, which would only make his public message board confusing to people new to the series (in other words, pretty much everyone back then).

In more recent interviews, it's more heavily implied that the PC-98 games are still canon to an extent, and that when there's contradictions the more recent games and manga take priority. I don't think he has told anyone to treat the PC-98 games like derivative works in nearly 10 years.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/o3ckjcc
http://rukasarisari.tumblr.com/post/62472030377/zun-q-a-at-anime-weekend-atlanta-sept-27-2013
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_AWA_Q%26A_Panel

[Tengukami]

I dunno, I think the AWA thing in particular is ZUN just being diplomatic about this whole thing. My main point is he seems to have little to no interest in dredging up all this stuff again, and besides which, PC-98 does not need some Canon Stamp Of Approval to be enjoyed, so who cares?

[Tiamat]

ZUN still likes making shout outs and uncofirming references to PC-98 from time to time though.  I think the most recent (and blatant) was UFO.  Wow, time passes fast.

[Tengukami]

ZUN still likes making shout outs and uncofirming references to PC-98 from time to time though.

Sure, but that's almost unavoidable, and a few of these "references" seem like people squinting hard enough to see PC-98 in them (as was the case with Ten Desires). UFO, though, did have a pretty blatant reference (if you're talking about that one spellcard, the presence of Makai?). His coyness and evasiveness speaks volumes on its own though, I think.

[Colticide]

Zun is really careful on how is games are made in terms of story. If he were to include mima in one it would have to have a reason for her being there, he can't just shoehorn her in, a character that's been present in all 5 pc98 games and that has a strong relationship to the two main characters needs a reason to be there. Yuukas appearance didn't matter much when she would appear because she follows her own agenda and is not that involved with either Reimu or Marisa.

[Phasm]

Hello everyone, i need help with learning Japanese... specifically knowing where to apply Hiragana and Katakana ( for GST2 and GST3 as well as East Chenblem ). I would love to translate video games yet i don't understand Japanese... please help. Thanks in advance.

[CyberAngel]

Since we have a "PC-98 fan" specimen, what can we find to actually answer the original question?

[...] as I do quite like her as a character.

That's the only relevant reason. All that canon talk is just an excuse.

I mean, nobody here argues that PC-98 is suddenly non-canon. It is. It's just that it's not necessary 100% canon either. Later stuff is more relevant and all that. Actually, it's a mistake to think that it's a problem unique to PC-98 games. EoSD was made before Great Hakurei Border idea was around and it shows in the prologue, for example.

Only if Mima came back then would people possibly consider that the PC-98 games are canon.

This is a fallacy, things don't work that way. It would be like when Yuuka appeared in PoFV - that single character would probably get a boost in popularity, but PC-98 stuff wouldn't suddenly become significantly more known or relevant. Those who know PC-98 games would be happy, but those who don't would still only know the newer depiction. (Of course, it's not like I know how it actually happened with Yuuka, but it's easy to make a guess given the current state of things.)

(in fact, things have been purposefully re-translated because people are so adamant in their belief that the pc-98 series is non-canon)

Wow. Conspiracy theories much?

[snowflake247]

To me, it seems that (at least partially) the whole "Mima's coming back for sure this time, I feel it in my bones!" thing that goes on every single time a new Touhou game is announced is sort of tongue-in-cheek, like it's the Touhou equivalent of the "Half-Life 3 Confirmed!" joke or something.
(Not sure if this is entirely relevant...)

[Clarste]

Just because a character isn't influencing current events that doesn't mean they can't be given a proper backstory and be made relevant in the future.

I agree with this entirely. But, I think it means the opposite of what you want it to mean: reintroducing old characters at this point would be much closer to introducing a new character than reviving interest in an old one. There would be a new character design with a new power (since the old characters didn't have "powers" as such), new spellcards (since the old characters didn't have spellcards as such), and probably a new theme song (although to be fair characters like Yuyuko and Yukari also have multiple themes). You wouldn't have Mima being made relevant, you'd have an entirely new Mima with probably only subtle jokes to her previous relevance. Like, Reimu might say "you look familiar... I hope you don't cause as much trouble as last time" and that would be that. It would be, for all practical purposes, an entirely new character. You might as well just pretend that Tojiko is Mima in disguise: what difference does it make?

Also, the fact that you feel she needs to be given a proper backstory says pretty much everything about how well they fit into the modern setting.

[Tengukami]

To me, it seems that (at least partially) the whole "Mima's coming back for sure this time, I feel it in my bones!" thing that goes on every single time a new Touhou game is announced is sort of tongue-in-cheek, like it's the Touhou equivalent of the "Half-Life 3 Confirmed!" joke or something.
(Not sure if this is entirely relevant...)

I think this is true like 90% of the time - it's become a running joke, really. There was even a former staffer here who once declared that he was done with Touhou until ZUN brought Mima back. This wasn't serious (not entirely anyway) but was said more to poke fun at the inflated sense of entitlement you can find in a small subset of fans.

[Phasm]

Would Mokou's or Kaguya's child inherit their immortal genes?

Seems like an amusing question, plus it would make sense

<Tengukami> Hi, for future reference: miscellaneous questions such as this belong in this thread. Please visit the sticky for further details. Thanks!

[Espadas]

Personally i don't think they would. If i remember correct, the Hourai Elixir "remove the concept of death" from the drinker. HOW it does so is not clear but i don't think it's a mere genetic change.

They can resurrect even after being ERASED FROM HISTORY, i don't think genes can go so far  :V

[CyberAngel]

Immortality from drinking Hourai Elixir is not caused by genes, but by, well, having Hourai Elixir in your body. That said, it might be possible that the elixir can go over to the child while they still carry it. I'd say it's not too likely since it's stated that eating immortal's liver specifically is what can make someone else immortal, so you can say that only liver has enough elixir concentration. Then again, the child has months of time.

...Except there's a small problem with the whole scenario. The elixir seems to work by forever keeping the drinker in the same state. This would probably heavily interfere with childbearing ability.

Amusing question, yeah.

[Kaizaki]

As with the above points, consuming the Elixir does not alter one's genes. So their child, if they get to bear one, is unlikely to inherit immortality.

On the tangential point regarding pregnancy, Alice mentioned in IN that immortality discards the body and causes the soul to be continually renewed. That said, it *might* be possible for them to become pregnant if they view themselves as such (one theory of Mokou's hair colour is that she thinks it should be grey since she's technically an old woman [1]). Lore isn't 100% clear on this though.

@Espadas: When and where did they get erased from history? Curious.

--

[1] Touhou character interpretation thread on TVTropes IIRC.

N.B. Typed this on my phone, so please forgive the lack of post quotes and hyperlinking. :P

[Nobu]

What doujin is Black Tewi from these pages from?

[attach=1]

[Cinjack B]

So with human faith, gods can be born, right? And with fear, youkai.
But if all humans have faith that a certain event will occur in a certain date, would that event actually occur, in Touhou logic? Events like, for instance, the end of the world or the return of the Messiah?

I came to this doubt thinking of how we could get in Gensokyo. If all humans decided to have faith that, in a certain date, Yukari Yakumo would alter our state of not knowing how to get to Gensokyo for knowing how to get to Gensokyo, if that's even possible with manipulation of borders, and then we would get there. Funny thing!

[Espadas]

@Espadas: When and where did they get erased from history? Curious.

They haven't been subjected to that yet (although i remember reading something exactly about this) but their immortality is absolute. Erasing them from history even before they drank the Elixir would erase their body from the actual timeline but they would be istantly restored anyway.

Their is the truest form of immortality, very rarely seen even in fictional works.

Ironically enough, at least against Mokou, you would be better off causing her a very damaging wound than outright destroy her. She needs a few days to recover from an almost-fatal wound, but if she is completely destroyed she resurrect immediately.

[NecroSovereign]

I was reading about Richter scale  and it got me thinking about how strong Tenshi's earthquake was. It leveled Hakurei shrine and the shrine doesn't look like specially designed against earthquakes, so I think it was between 6 and 8 on Richter scale. I'm not a seismologist and there is no earthquakes where I live, so it may not be even an accurate rough estimate.

[Tengukami]

(Janitor's Note: I have merged 3 "here's a random question/speculation" threads with this thread in the past 10 hours. Seriously, guys, please just post them here. ^_^;; Thanks!)

[Cinjack B]

(Janitor's Note: I have merged 3 "here's a random question/speculation" threads with this thread in the past 10 hours. Seriously, guys, please just post them here. ^_^;; Thanks!)

I am sorry, I thought that my question was really more than what was described to be asked in this thread. Won't happen again.