Author Topic: Danmaku!! Let me AX you a question  (Read 228822 times)

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #540 on: June 03, 2015, 02:38:36 AM »
Thanks everyone.   BTW I haven't heard anything about the new Miko and  Oku and Tenshi.  Is that good?

Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #541 on: June 03, 2015, 10:37:55 AM »
Thanks everyone.   BTW I haven't heard anything about the new Miko and  Oku and Tenshi.  Is that good?

Oh, my impressions are as follows:

Okuu: Major improvement in the spell card department, though players tend to see her as a Poor Man's Sakuya, especially since her overdrive-esque passive still doesn't see much use (The losing a power to activate your spell card via life loss has stopped it's potential use once or twice). She's most effective against Aya due to getting a lot of damage that Aya usually can't cancel. (I would put her @ Tier 2.5 now)

Tenshi: It was rare that she lost the challenge on her spell card before (probably due to the card draw on her turn and the ability to pick targets) now makes her spell card a rather reliable source of Self healing, which has a bigger impact the longer the game has gone on. (I would put her @ Tier 1 now)

Miko: Giving players card opens up political options, but leaves her rather vulnerable, even with a free spell card. Eirin, Youmu, & Sanae still overshadow her as ideal partners. (I would put her @ Tier 4 now)

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #542 on: June 04, 2015, 08:48:43 PM »
Alright lurkers, I need to hear from everyone on this:

Blank or create your own Danmaku!! cards:

http://strawpoll.me/4541831

Big Fairy

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #543 on: June 05, 2015, 09:00:30 PM »
I actually spent hours to photoshop pictures into all of the cards before printing them as I couldn't stand playing with just a bunch of Danmaku!! logos (and because pretty pictures always work better to capture the attention of all those people who aren't Touhou fans). Coincidentally, the Voile I printed ended up being the exact same as the official card. Neat.

I had the occasion to test the new Miko only once (where she was a partner) and she boosted the Heroine quite well, however this was because no one could/would cancel her spell card activation. I think that she could be pretty dangerous when teamed up with Patchouli. But perhaps she could be boosted a bit further.
New Okuu now has considerable power output now and can't be taken lightly. The old one had become sort of a disliked character in my group because the risk of spending a life to activate her spell just wasn't worth it (I think around 90% of these ended with the target player grinning and playing a Graze), but the new one was well-liked by those who got to play as her. In one noticeable incident, as Heroine she inflicted a first round, one hit (one shot+spell card) defeat... on her partner.
Old Tenshi gave solid results most of the time, new Tenshi has been no different, except that she's even better now. Unfortunately the new version has been used once or twice only so I can't report on what kind of effect the healing has.

As I understand these blank cards would let you photocopy them and design your own cards to use in 'informal' games? That could be fun.

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #544 on: June 05, 2015, 09:29:06 PM »
Oku is a bird brain after all.

The blank cards are for customization and replacement. The intent is you write on them and they're indistinguishable from the others when face down. Though you can just use sleeved cards with proxies as well.

Lots of people expressed that they wanted their favorite Touhou in the game, so this would be an option for them. Though I suspect that includes us doing the work to make the character fun and balanced.  Balancing characters is difficult, only trumped by balancing the battle deck as a whole.


Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #545 on: June 06, 2015, 01:55:00 AM »

The Greatest Dog

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #546 on: June 06, 2015, 03:36:15 AM »
Character cards not found?

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #547 on: June 06, 2015, 03:44:11 AM »
Weird, that worked when I was previewing, anyway it's fixed.

Big Fairy

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #548 on: June 06, 2015, 02:19:52 PM »
Eirin's card in the new batch has the wrong Spell Card (heals a player for 2 points instead of healing herself and another for 1)

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #549 on: June 06, 2015, 04:53:16 PM »
Go home Eirin you're drunk

Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #550 on: June 06, 2015, 07:50:34 PM »
So the Changes from the last TTS version are:

Alice's Bomb is now Shoot + Manifest the next Item card .

(If you go through the deck & don't find one, do you reshuffle the deck and keep going? What if all items are in players hand's or in play?)

Eirin's Bomb is now Shoot and +2 life to 1 player.

-1 Melee
-2 1-UPs

+1 Focus
+2 Spiritual Attacks

Focus now gives +2 Distance

Am I missing anything?

Edit: Oh & Meiling's Ability wording is different.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 07:52:49 PM by Zhelot »

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #551 on: June 06, 2015, 08:46:48 PM »
I think you got most of it, and Eirin was a mistake and has been corrected.

the wording on phantom boss is also different

Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #552 on: June 06, 2015, 09:17:36 PM »
That's right, so The True Phantom Boss loses "ignore incidents at will" and gains "May skip their incident step"?

Also the EX Boss Revealed gains "+1 Max hand size"

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #553 on: June 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM »
Currently considering wether sarcrificing life involves discarding power cards or not.

This involves early Yoshika design as one may expect

Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #554 on: June 08, 2015, 12:08:28 AM »
Currently considering wether sarcrificing life involves discarding power cards or not.

This involves early Yoshika design as one may expect

On 1 hand, more flexibility in rules give you more design space,

On the other hand, more exceptions within the rules makes learning the game harder, which can limit your potential audience.

Personally I lean toward the latter, especially since I believe good art is birthed in constraint. Philosophy, aside the decision isn't that major, though a side note, Yoshika has some cool design space, being a Jaing-Shi I immediately jumped to getting advantage from life loss or defeat, however her noted special trait is the ability to eat anything which also opens up advantage from discard.

In terms of gains from life loss, defeating characters is interesting but is much harder to pull off while it makes kill-stealing a very real problem for you. Gains from inflicting damage (ala Yuuka) are more common, but still surprisingly rare especially compared to narrowness of play style it encourages you into (very aggro, the more you wait the more you fall behind kind of deal). Another option is gains from your own life loss (ala Tenshi), which IMO is the strongest in that it limits your opponents options, thus allowing you more flexibility in play (the ideal way to get Tenshi is to make her draw when it would put it over her max hand size and/or deal as much damage to her in bursts).

In terms of gaining advantage from discard, you can go with a triggered ability but the most consistent form of discard is due to being above max hand size. That's still an interesting source of gains, the other option being a activated ability. The cost of such can include discarding cards by card type, amount, season, combined point value, and/or minimum point value. There's a lot of cool design space here.



Also, in testing today we've noticed that if the EX-Boss dies, the EX-Midboss cannot win. If they manage to defeat all Stage Bosses, that triggers the Heroine's win condition before they get the opportunity to defeat them. The Solution that comes to mind is the give the EX-Mid the ability to reveal their role to gain a new role of the Boss or Extra Boss variety.

Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #555 on: June 08, 2015, 06:42:46 PM »
The issues I see with the stack for Danmaku lie largely in the priority system, waiting in turn order for reactions is both time consuming from a getting everyone focused standpoint, and makes reaction politicking a lot more awkward, not to mention canceling taking priority over general reactions, means either extra rounds of priority separate for canceling, and each reaction/trigger (I'm looking & Byakuren & Yukari's abilities). A more open reaction period, in practice, flows better.

The general point of the stack is to be able to say that we 'eliminate' the double round, and just do a single round of 'reaction'. In a way encompassing both react and counter type spells.

Example I; A react spell Y can be played and put on top of an original spell X. Stack contains YX. If no reactions are played to Y, Y resolves, usually modifying spell X. Another round of priority follows, and here someone could play 'counter' type spell Z, preventing X from happening. As you can see the player holding the Z card still gets to counter X so still gets to have the 'initiative' in the game; it is not necessary to have multiple rounds in the 'order' of precedence you would as a game creator like the cards to apply in, this order happens at play time.
Example 2; Stronger still, a player can cast Z while Y is still on the stack, forming the stack ZYX. When this stack resolves (and suppose for this example it fully resolves), then Z counters X, leaving Y with an illegal target, which means this spell will do nothing. (In the previous example, any effects of Y beyond modifying X will still matter in the game).
Example 3; In the case where the countering player is 'first' to make the decision, putting ZX as the stack, the player with the spell 'Y' can still decide to cast it, for X still exists before Z resolves. Of course, anything spell Y does to modify X will not apply, but perhaps the other effects are useful.

A quick note: No matter what you settle on, if two non-allied players are holding on to a counter card, the 'prisoner's dilemma' that ensues when the third player (which is not allied to either other player in this example) casts something both of the first players would like to counter is generally unavoidable. Thus my general recommendation here is that each gets one chance to react via priority. If one reacts, everyone recursively gets another priority round. A game where a big 'bomb' card can get through due to opponents' greed seems more fun to me as well  :D

PS: An elegant side-solution I'm really fond of is to have abilities add text to cards instead of triggering separate clauses ala Soulfire Grand Master. Example Youmu's Ability can be phrased as: Danmaku Cards Youmu plays that attack a single player gain: "You may attack a different player in range."

This is exactly how a card would be phrased in a stack-based system if it's intended to 'modify' another card, or happen 'right after' another card but be used as an mtg instant or reaction card.

PPS: We had our 1st layers interaction/issue: So according to the rules a Heroine Patchouli's Max Handsize is 8, if She has the Sutra Scroll in play "Your max hand size is now 7" does it set her handsize down to 7 (ala timestamp in MTG) or does her Heroine Bonus to max handsize (+1) Also affect the Sutra Scroll? (meaning all Heroines that use the Sutra Scroll will have a max handsize of 8?)


So using 'layers', then the Sutra Scroll would be an Attribute setting effect. (Layer VII-B). '+1 hand size'  would be an attribute operative effect (adding, removing, multiplying, etc.) applying in layer VII-C. So in other words if you use the mtg layer system, you end up with a max hand size of '8'. The gist of how it works, is that the layers are:

I Copy (anything continuously copying anything else),
II Control (think of an O-ring from MTG),
III Text alteration (e.g. replace all instances of 'spring' with 'summer' on a card),
IV Type alteration (type of card, e.g. Artifact, Danmaku)
V Colour alteration (Season),
VI Adding or removing abilities
VII Attributes. Each effect is placed in the topmost corresponding layer. In MTG  Attributes have some sublayers, where it goes:
A: CDA (any 'variable' attribute like an X),
B: 'SET', (attribute 'becomes X),
C: Nonset (double, triple, add three, subtract two),
D: Adding 'tokens' or 'counters'
E: Switching attributes around

Apply all continuous effects in each layer in the order of layers listed. If there is more than one effect in each layer, whichever effect has been in play the longest happens first. There's no special precedence rules for type of card, just for what the card 'does'. The only exception is when effects depend on eachother. E.g. when a card has a certain effect, but the effect of another card IN THE SAME LAYER would remove the effect of the first card by changing the first card. This takes precedence above everything. (Note: the stack enforces a strict timestamp order, so cases of ambiguity are rare.).

The layers were made in this way to minimize paradoxes and arranged to make most combinations intuitive.

Now this would be the case if modifying an 'object'. If there's no qualms about making 'hand size' an 'object' then this is how things would wind down. Making 'hand size' a game rule, makes things more interesting, or complicated, however you could see that.

Suppose for example we have this setup:

Base hand size is 5, heroine has +1 in this example.
Sanae (Heroine, holding Sutra Scroll), Cirno,  Byakuren, and Eirin.
Since 'being the heroine' has been present from the game start, this effect applied first, thus Sanae has a hand size of 7. Her default of 5, +1 from heroine is 6. Then the sutra scroll sets it to 7. Hand sizes are thus:
7, 5, 5, 5.
After this, Cirno 'steals' Sanae's sutra scroll. This resets the timestamp on the scroll, which is still newer than the 'Heroine' card, thus applies last, which does not matter here. The hand sizes become:
6, 7, 5, 5
Cirno's hand size is now simply 7, only one effect applies. The same holds for Sanae's 6.
Now suppose someone plays a 'Crisis of Faith', and Cirno ends up being the Heroine. Hand sizes now become:
5, 8, 5, 5.
Why is Cirno's hand size bigger than Sanae's was at the start? Since Crisis of Faith generated the 'Heroine' card this card is now considered 'newer' than the Sutra scroll. Ownership transferred, so the Heroine card went to a new zone and gained a new timestamp (like the scroll).

Summary table:
ActionSanaeCirnoByakurenEirin
Begin situation7555
Cirno steals6755
Crisis of faith5855

So umm.. I guess my answer would be 'it depends on the situation, and whether hand size is an attribute'   ???



Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #556 on: June 09, 2015, 01:42:57 AM »
Patchy's Ability and Sutra Scroll both do the same thing: They set your max hand size to 7, regardless of timestamps.

Heroine adds another +1 to this for a total of 8 if you have Patchy/Scroll.  The total is even 8 if you're Heroine Patchy with the Scroll.





Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #558 on: June 09, 2015, 09:08:56 AM »
TTS files as promised.

I did this without my scripts, which I forgot to backup from my last PC. Kill me.

Ouch, thanks for that!

BTW, you probably don't want to hear this, but I did a tally of the Battle deck, and there are 21 Fall cards, 20 Winter cards, 18 Spring cards, and 21 Summer cards.

... I probably have a little too much time on my hands.

Patchy's Ability and Sutra Scroll both do the same thing: They set your max hand size to 7, regardless of timestamps.

Heroine adds another +1 to this for a total of 8 if you have Patchy/Scroll.  The total is even 8 if you're Heroine Patchy with the Scroll.

OK, I think I've been miscommunicating the issue I am trying to bring to your attention here, and that's my bad.

The issue is NOT the ambiguous situations themselves, rather mechanics and/or rules with multiple interpretations can be a catalyst for player arguments that can damper and at times ruin a play session for players that are not even a part of the argument. To be fair, this is not all players, in fact I would go so far as to say they're in the minority, however there are certain players who won't abide by an interpretation other than their own, and they will prioritize being right over having fun.

I know players like this IRL and I may have one who I've played Danmaku with online. This doens't make them bad people, but as a game group host, having them can be somewhat limiting. IRL these type of players I know are often attracted to MTG BECAUSE of the detailed and consistent rules set that governs the experience, and such arguments almost never pop up in games with "inflexible/encompassing" rules, but any "loopholes" they find they will have an opinion on pro or con.

As I mentioned before MTG addresses this player type issue by being thorough with it's rules, however this is not an answer that's easy and generally takes a lot of feedback loops to maintain a satisfactory state. Other games like Cards Against Humanity will put rules arbitration into the hands of a player (Card Czar), though in a game like Danmaku the potential conflict of interest can undermine the groups respect for that kind of authority, plus I've noticed this player type tends to have issues with authority to begin with.

The other option I can think of is to say this isn't for serious types, and call it a wrap. This is the easiest option, but I wouldn't recommend it, largely because it's actually rather hard to organize a play session and not have or purposefully exclude that kind of person. This is especially true for a 4-8 player game.

If that kind of person is in your board game oriented group of friends you have to either only pull out the "silly" game when they're not there, make plans to play it when they happen to not be available or with the intention of not inviting them. If you're playing with strangers at say a con or a game store/group you don't have that kind of discretion, and you risk the argument breakout, even if it is your game.


Personally I've been bringing up these issues as nudging toward the having an "encompassing" rules set, but building and refining this is work. My point being is that if you wish to pursue such a design challenge, you'll need to focus on comprehension and clarity, ESPECIALLY with players who have little to no experience with CCGs. You have a good avenue to that kind of player base in the TTS group if you so wish to use it as such.

Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #559 on: June 09, 2015, 09:24:21 AM »
If one reacts, everyone recursively gets another priority round. A game where a big 'bomb' card can get through due to opponents' greed seems more fun to me as well  :D

2 Things: You wouldn't happen to be a MTG Judge, would you? And you should join the TTS group, I'd love to have ya! ^^

Well I also like the idea of tense react/don't react prisoner's decisions due to turn order, In my experience a lot of the more "casual" players do not like that. On paper is looks great, but in practice players get cold feet, want take backs, or want to discuss a bunch. As a result the process ends up taking a lot longer than you would think. More "serious" players will generally play faster, but you also have the difficulty finding 4+ of them (though http://www.theresistanceonline.com/ seems to do this more or less fine).

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #560 on: June 10, 2015, 03:26:51 AM »
Ouch, thanks for that!

BTW, you probably don't want to hear this, but I did a tally of the Battle deck, and there are 21 Fall cards, 20 Winter cards, 18 Spring cards, and 21 Summer cards.

... I probably have a little too much time on my hands.

As a quick fix I have fixed the ratios by copy-pasting a Shoot!  Please ignore that the card numbers are off.

I'd agree with you but I think that'd be the pot calling the kettle black.  Do you know how much free time I'd have if I abandoned my projects?

Ambiguity

I knew what you meant but it's nice to hear you say it, since it's easy to feel like people are looking for trouble.  Perhaps I haven't been doing my part well enough.  I will make an attempt here to clarify our position.

Our intent is a fun party game, as has been stated over and over.  We realize it falls to us as the creators to have clear and consistent rules to minimize the anti-fun situations you described above, but it also falls to us to keep a low barrier of entry for new and casual players.  The MtG comprehensive rules come with a disclaimer for precisely this reason.  We do want to clarify general cases instead of specifics, things like what "play on behalf of another player" means will be continually reviewed up until, and unfortunately probably past printing.  We will probably end up with a Danmaku!! Comprehensive Rulebook whether we want one or not, but we want to minimize the need for it as much as possible. 

Neither Carrot nor I think importing MtG's rules are the way to resolve that.  We would spend more time clarifying where Danmaku!! and MtG differ, I would go so far as to say that from what I've seen, familiarity with MtG's comprehensive rules muddies the waters for our game on some of the core elements, whereas casual players of both understood those core elements intuitively.  Now there's some issue of scope here, MtG's comprehensive rules are 200 pages and cover thousands of cards.  I don't see Damaku!! passing 500 cards even if Carrot and I managed to balance and publish every single card idea we've had, so we'd only be importing a subset anyway, but we would still like as simple rules as possible.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 03:48:20 AM by Moogs Parfait »

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #561 on: June 30, 2015, 05:53:46 PM »


WISE FROM YOUR GWAVE AND FINISH THE DAMN PROJECT



Thanks Deji/Tewi, I needed that.

Hello all, I've let this thread linger for too long.  Scratch that, I've let everything linger too long, I didn't realize how badly things had fallen apart after my hospitalization.  Did you know that wash+fold laundry services are totally worth it?  Especially when you have a 150 lb (68 kg) backlog of laundry.

The project rolls on behind the scenes, we're still shopping for printing and we've had a few quotes, including a silly one for $40,000 USD.  I've managed to meet the TTS group to play for 2 weeks in a row, and I fell asleep in the middle of talking to Zhelot.

Anyway, expect to hear from me regularly again and here's an unofficial incident that totes should be a real one.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 05:55:47 PM by Moogs Parfait »

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #562 on: June 30, 2015, 05:54:38 PM »
Where is the delete button?

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #563 on: June 30, 2015, 06:26:10 PM »
The 1up image looks really nice. ^^

The incident should totally be official. :D
It reminds me of the "Imperishable Night play mode" someone came up with (can't remember who it was).
(When I read the incident's name, I was wondering what Lily White had to do with this.  :derp: Until I remembered the Japanese word for Lily.  :V )

Hope you'll find a good (and cheap) printing shop soon! ^^

I don't think there is a delete button. >.>
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 06:27:44 PM by ShadowNCS »

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #564 on: July 06, 2015, 06:53:34 PM »

Anyway, expect to hear from me regularly again and here's an unofficial incident that totes should be a real one.



Unofficial incident is a broken card, indeed. It doesn't say what happens to the second player cards after the incident ends. So, if the incident is played more than once than would it lead to three character attacks per player?

Anyways, I got a question for you, Moogs. For Nitori's ability to discard a Item card to draw a card, is it just from your hand or can it be from the field?

Also, I thought of something(idea for Rin Satsuki, of all people), and I wanted to know if such a thing is considered broken...

---

Rin Satsuki
Character Card

Abilities
When anyone loses life for any reason, you may discard a card from your hand to restore 1 life to that character. You can play this ability only once per instance of lost life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)

Rin does not need to discard Powerup cards when she loses a life.

Spellcard
Clouds to the Moon, Winds to the Blossoms
"Cherry Flavored Justice"

This spellcard cannot be cancelled.
For each of these effects, you may choose a player to apply it to.
- Gain 1 life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)
- Draw a card.
- Trash a card of your choosing that they have in play.
- Discard a card from their hand.
(You may choose the same target for more than one effect. You may choose different targets for different effects.)

You may attack a player, regardless of range.

---

That would honestly be the first thing that I would put on a blank character card. So, is it good? Bad? OP? The spellcard's wording is confusing? Please let me know...
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #565 on: July 06, 2015, 07:15:47 PM »
I meant for the secondary chargers to be discarded, whoops.  I guess yuri is eternal.

So your Rin turns her hand into an extra life bar for her team.  Additionally if she herself ever gets hit she can immediately heal and draw a card from swing draw, infinitely, so she's invincible except to characters like Marisa and  Sanae.

Then on her spell, using everyone's favorite metric of card advantage, her spell is +6.  Most spell cards are +3.

2 for healing, 1 for draw, 1 for trash, 1 for discard, and 1 for attacking.

Your wording is pretty good but it took me awhile to understand your reminder text in parentheses.

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #566 on: July 06, 2015, 07:16:41 PM »
Rin Satsuki
Character Card

Abilities
When anyone loses life for any reason, you may discard a card from your hand to restore 1 life to that character. You can play this ability only once per instance of lost life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)

Rin does not need to discard Powerup cards when she loses a life.

Spellcard
Clouds to the Moon, Winds to the Blossoms
"Cherry Flavored Justice"

This spellcard cannot be cancelled.
For each of these effects, you may choose a player to apply it to.
- Gain 1 life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)
- Draw a card.
- Trash a card of your choosing that they have in play.
- Discard a card from their hand.
(You may choose the same target for more than one effect. You may choose different targets for different effects.)

You may attack a player, regardless of range.

While I'm not Moogs, it might still be interesting to hear the opinion of a regular player, right? No? Well, I'll state my opinion anyway.  :yukkuri:

Rin seems like a really powerful character. And with that, I mean that her passive ability alone is overpowered.
Generally, restoring life is a very powerful ability, that is usually worth 2 - 3 cards (you gain a card for being hit, the enemy needs to play at least one card to hit you to begin with, and you need a card to restore your life via Beer).
As such, being able to restore one life at any time, multiple times per round, would mean that Satsuki would be the ultimate defensive character. Heck, if she used this ability on herself, she could not possibly lose, as anytime she'd be dealt damage, she can just heal it again with the card she draws. Or rather, the card she uses to heal herself with would be reclaimed by the Swing Draw.
The keeping powerup cards after being hit in addition to that isn't even worth mentioning.

Spellcards that cannot be canceled are always a huge thing. People still think Remilia is a good character because of her Spear the Gungnir alone, since it is a surefire way to defeat an enemy when they are at one life.
Even though Rin's spellcard does not deal any damage, let me put up an estimation of how many cards a Spell Card is worth (for reference, Spellcards are usually around 3 card's worth: Patchouli's Spell Card is an attack (one card) + 2 cards drawn)
? Gain 1 life: as mentioned earlier, this is already 2 - 3 cards worth by itself
? Draw a card: another 1 card worth
? Trash a card of your choosing: I'd say another 1.5 cards, since items are worth a lot. Ever wanted to get rid of a Supernatural Border? Or a character is just out of range because of a Focus? It's gone now. Let's not talk about artifacts.
? Discard a card (I assume at random) from their hand: another card [if not at random, then add another card's worth, because knowing your opponent's hand is powerful)
? Cannot be canceled: Another card (at least).
So, in total, your Spell Card is worth 6.5 to 7.5 cards worth. More than twice as good as any other Spell Card.

While your idea is interesting, it is completely overpowered.
Maybe make it so that Satsuki's passive can only be used once per round, and only on other people. Or make it actually cost 2 cards (and limiting to other players still, because self heal is always enormous. Back when Eirin still healed a lot with her Spell Card, she could survive an onslaught of two enemies all by herself. And that was limited to once per round and by the fact that you needed an invocation card).

With her Spellcard, if you want ALL of these effects, you can make it so the player has to decide for ONE of these, as well as dealing damage to another player.
(Although even that might be a bit too powerful, as having choice is also always a bit advantage.)

So, yeah, Satsuki Rin is a powerhouse and a character is unlikely to lose.

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #567 on: July 06, 2015, 11:09:46 PM »
I meant for the secondary chargers to be discarded, whoops.  I guess yuri is eternal.

So your Rin turns her hand into an extra life bar for her team.  Additionally if she herself ever gets hit she can immediately heal and draw a card from swing draw, infinitely, so she's invincible except to characters like Marisa and  Sanae.

Then on her spell, using everyone's favorite metric of card advantage, her spell is +6.  Most spell cards are +3.

2 for healing, 1 for draw, 1 for trash, 1 for discard, and 1 for attacking.

Your wording is pretty good but it took me awhile to understand your reminder text in parentheses.

While I'm not Moogs, it might still be interesting to hear the opinion of a regular player, right? No? Well, I'll state my opinion anyway.  :yukkuri:

Rin seems like a really powerful character. And with that, I mean that her passive ability alone is overpowered.
Generally, restoring life is a very powerful ability, that is usually worth 2 - 3 cards (you gain a card for being hit, the enemy needs to play at least one card to hit you to begin with, and you need a card to restore your life via Beer).
As such, being able to restore one life at any time, multiple times per round, would mean that Satsuki would be the ultimate defensive character. Heck, if she used this ability on herself, she could not possibly lose, as anytime she'd be dealt damage, she can just heal it again with the card she draws. Or rather, the card she uses to heal herself with would be reclaimed by the Swing Draw.
The keeping powerup cards after being hit in addition to that isn't even worth mentioning.

Spellcards that cannot be canceled are always a huge thing. People still think Remilia is a good character because of her Spear the Gungnir alone, since it is a surefire way to defeat an enemy when they are at one life.
Even though Rin's spellcard does not deal any damage, let me put up an estimation of how many cards a Spell Card is worth (for reference, Spellcards are usually around 3 card's worth: Patchouli's Spell Card is an attack (one card) + 2 cards drawn)
? Gain 1 life: as mentioned earlier, this is already 2 - 3 cards worth by itself
? Draw a card: another 1 card worth
? Trash a card of your choosing: I'd say another 1.5 cards, since items are worth a lot. Ever wanted to get rid of a Supernatural Border? Or a character is just out of range because of a Focus? It's gone now. Let's not talk about artifacts.
? Discard a card (I assume at random) from their hand: another card [if not at random, then add another card's worth, because knowing your opponent's hand is powerful)
? Cannot be canceled: Another card (at least).
So, in total, your Spell Card is worth 6.5 to 7.5 cards worth. More than twice as good as any other Spell Card.

While your idea is interesting, it is completely overpowered.
Maybe make it so that Satsuki's passive can only be used once per round, and only on other people. Or make it actually cost 2 cards (and limiting to other players still, because self heal is always enormous. Back when Eirin still healed a lot with her Spell Card, she could survive an onslaught of two enemies all by herself. And that was limited to once per round and by the fact that you needed an invocation card).

With her Spellcard, if you want ALL of these effects, you can make it so the player has to decide for ONE of these, as well as dealing damage to another player.
(Although even that might be a bit too powerful, as having choice is also always a bit advantage.)

So, yeah, Satsuki Rin is a powerhouse and a character is unlikely to lose.

Hm...

If the measure of said effects are that good, then I have severely underestimated the power of life restoration. In fact, I may of underestimated everything about effects in general. (I also forgot about Swing Draw. Whoops.)

How about this...

--

Rin Satsuki
Character Card

Abilities
When anyone other than Rin loses life for any reason, you may discard a card from your hand to restore 1 life to that character. You can play this ability only once per instance of lost life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)

Rin may skip her turn to regain 2 life. (You may not exceed your maximum life. You can not use this ability on consecutive rounds.)

Rin does not need to discard Powerups cards when she loses life.

Spellcard - Action
Clouds to the Moon, Winds to the Blossoms
"Cherry Flavored Justice"

You may discard up to three cards from your hand when you play this spellcard.
Choose a player, and choose one of the following effects to apply to said player. For each card discarded, you may choose an additional different effect, and choose a player to apply it to. (You may choose the same target for more than one effect. You may choose different targets for different effects. You can not use the same effect more than once per spellcard activation.)
- Gain 1 life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)
- Draw a card.
- Trash a card of your choosing that they have in play.
- Discard a card from their hand.

You may attack a player, regardless of range.

--

And I just looked into the rules and found that you draw 2 cards every turn by default and your hand is, barring anything that would alter it somehow, 4. Huh. I really didn't think about Swing Draw at all, or know of these aspects.

Also, if I'm understanding the rules correctly, Rin's spellcard now requires that you burn what is effectively your entire hand to use it to full effect, and it's a disadvantage due to the fact that she kind of needs cards to actually do stuff. I also rewrote her healing ability in two ways, making it so that she can't heal herself with her "1 card equals 1 life" ability, and that she has to forgo her turn to heal for 2, which I imagine is powerful enough on it's own(presuming that 1 life equals 2 cards, and Meiling's version draws 4 cards, so...), and like Meiling's "skip a turn" ability, she can't use it twice in a row. However, unlike Meiling, Rin can't use her spellcard if she skips her turn, so there's that. Also, the fact that the spellcard wasn't able to be cancelled was meant to make it better, but if that makes it far too good, I'll take that part out. I'm still keeping the "attack regardless of range" part, though.

So what do you think of the changes?

Also, I was curious about the "discard an Item card to draw a card" from Nitori.  Is it from from your hand, the field, or can it be either?

And finally, I was thinking of a few different effects, although I have no idea where or who to apply it to(Not Rin, as she's powerful enough as is)...

"For each Item card you have in play, you are allowed to play one additional Danmaku card per round. This is in addition to the effect of the Item itself."

"This character can have two Defense cards in play. They can not be two of the same name. (You can not have two Focuses, for example.)"

"This character can have two Artifact cards in play."

Hm...

Why do I get the feeling that if I put those abilities together, I could create a Rinnosuke character card? Seems odd... And maybe something that's terribly OP...
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

ShadowNCS

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #568 on: July 07, 2015, 12:48:37 AM »
Abilities
When anyone other than Rin loses life for any reason, you may discard a card from your hand to restore 1 life to that character. You can play this ability only once per instance of lost life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)

Rin may skip her turn to regain 2 life. (You may not exceed your maximum life. You can not use this ability on consecutive rounds.)

Rin does not need to discard Powerups cards when she loses life.

The passive is better now, although I think a one card per heal still makes her really powerful, even if not as broken as before.
For reference, Eirin can only use her heal once per turn, and has to get a relatively rare Invocation card to heal herself and another person of choice.
While limiting the healing effect only to use it for other players is making it less useful for Rin herself, she becomes a great Partner who can basically heal/ prevent life-loss of the Heroine for up to 4 Life in one round (even more if you have the Sutra Scroll). And the heroine still draws a card for every time being hit, so that generates up to 4 (or 7) free cards for the heroine. True, Rin will then be the target of every boss (if they don't attack her earlier than that already), but that's part of the Meta-game, and while that is an important part, I don't want to include that aspect to value the strength of a character card. ^^

If you want to keep the skip turn thing, I would reduce the amount of life gained to 1. It's true that Satsuki cannot use her Spell Card unlike Meiling, but you still can generate 2 card draws out of this due to Swing Draw, and it rivals the power of Eirin's Spell Card. And passive abilities should never be as strong as another character's Spell Card, especially not if it isn't even the entirety of the passive.

If I made this character (which I don't, so feel free to ignore my opinions if you disagree), I'd remove the turn skip ability again, since her first passive is strong enough already to be worth choosing Rin solely on that. And not having to lose Powerups on top of that is just silly powerful IMO. ^^

Spellcard - Action
Clouds to the Moon, Winds to the Blossoms
"Cherry Flavored Justice"

You may discard up to three cards from your hand when you play this spellcard.
Choose a player, and choose one of the following effects to apply to said player. For each card discarded, you may choose an additional different effect, and choose a player to apply it to. (You may choose the same target for more than one effect. You may choose different targets for different effects. You can not use the same effect more than once per spellcard activation.)
- Gain 1 life. (You may not exceed a character's maximum life.)
- Draw a card.
- Trash a card of your choosing that they have in play.
- Discard a card from their hand.

You may attack a player, regardless of range.

And I just looked into the rules and found that you draw 2 cards every turn by default and your hand is, barring anything that would alter it somehow, 4. Huh. I really didn't think about Swing Draw at all, or know of these aspects.

Also, if I'm understanding the rules correctly, Rin's spellcard now requires that you burn what is effectively your entire hand to use it to full effect, and it's a disadvantage due to the fact that she kind of needs cards to actually do stuff. I also rewrote her healing ability in two ways, making it so that she can't heal herself with her "1 card equals 1 life" ability, and that she has to forgo her turn to heal for 2, which I imagine is powerful enough on it's own(presuming that 1 life equals 2 cards, and Meiling's version draws 4 cards, so...), and like Meiling's "skip a turn" ability, she can't use it twice in a row. However, unlike Meiling, Rin can't use her spellcard if she skips her turn, so there's that. Also, the fact that the spellcard wasn't able to be cancelled was meant to make it better, but if that makes it far too good, I'll take that part out. I'm still keeping the "attack regardless of range" part, though.

Don't forget that, if you start the turn with 4 cards in hand, you will have 6 cards, meaning you can end your turn with another 2 cards in hand. Just wanted to note that.

Oh, your Spell does actually attack as well, AND regardless of range? Ouch, add another 1.5 cards to the Spell Card value. xD

The Spell Card is a lot better already, since you are now far more limited. But you still have a lot of choice. You can still heal up to 3 life, which is massive.
And you still have a lot of choice.  If you need to quickly destroy the defenses of a walled in player, you can easily trash all of their items, which is especially evil against characters like Alice.
If you are at 1 life, you can effectively go back to max life, which is a total game changer. With one single Spell Card. Yes, you'll need to waste most of your hand with that, but don't forget that for each card spend with that, you can draw another card through Swing Draw. And if you only discard Shoots and get Grazes back, hey, you just got life AND better cards in one!

If I harp on the choice part of your Spell card a lot, that's because choice is way more powerful than you may think at first.
Which is why I personally would reduce the amount of choice you have with the Spell Card.
One way to do so would be:
"Discard up to 3 cards from your hand.
For each Danmaku card, you may draw a card.
For each Dodge card, you may trash a random card from any one player's hand.
For each Item, not Artifact, card, you may trash any item of a player of your choosing.
For each Artifact, a player of your choosing gains one life.

You may attack a player." [no regardless of range because the Spell Card is still powerful IMO, but I can't tell how powerful exactly without play-testing.]

This way, not only do you limit the choice to the cards on your hand, but you also give players a reason to draw cards instead of gaining life. xD
The reason I chose those types of cards are:
? Danmaku cards are fairly common, and you are basically just Kourindou-ing your Danmaku cards.
? Dodges are fairly hard to come by in the most recent version, however, trashing a card from someone's hand is powerful, too, and heavily annoys players, which is why characters who initially stole cards from other players' hands don't so anymore. Although I guess you could make this to Reaction cards in general, as most, if not all, reactions are either Dodges or Bomb cards anyway.
? Artifacts are extremely rare. There are only 3 in the core deck. And unless I'm mistaking, there are only two 1-Ups, too. So that should indicate just how powerful a healing effect is, and it should be worth discarding another powerful card for it. But, hey, if you happen to have a second Artifact, you can actually generate some worth out of it instead of just dumping it like everyone else would have to!
? Items that are not Artifacts. Sadly, artifacts are Items, too, so I had to word it this stupid, but I also couldn't think of any other card type that wasn't invocation or reaction, one being too rare and useful to choose here, and the other one overlapping with the dodges and being too common. ^^;
Anyway, trashing an item is too powerful to not come at some cost. As I mentioned earlier, stripping a walled-in character off all their Items is something that no one expects to happen quickly. So having to spend another Item for that might be appropriate. And at least you can get rid of duplicate Focuses or something.

Anyway, that is my recommendation for how to make this Spell Card interesting, while not making it too OP. Hopefully.
But again, if you don't like my suggestions, feel free to ignore them. ^^

Also, I was curious about the "discard an Item card to draw a card" from Nitori.  Is it from from your hand, the field, or can it be either?
If it doesn't state that it has to be from your hand, assume that it can be one that is in play. That's how we handle it.

"For each Item card you have in play, you are allowed to play one additional Danmaku card per round. This is in addition to the effect of the Item itself."

"This character can have two Defense cards in play. They can not be two of the same name. (You can not have two Focuses, for example.)"

"This character can have two Artifact cards in play."

Hm...

Why do I get the feeling that if I put those abilities together, I could create a Rinnosuke character card? Seems odd... And maybe something that's terribly OP...
The first one seems incredibly powerful. Maybe you should limit it to Powerup cards, or plainly state that Power cards generate two additional Danmaku uses instead of one.
Alternatively, you can make it so that Item cards generate an additional Danmaku use unless the Item itself generates more uses.
But it might actually not be as powerful as I think it is, since Danmaku uses are limited by the amount of cards in your hand. Then again, Yuuka with this ability would go berserk...

The second ability seems okay to me.
The third one, however... just imagine a person with a Sutra Scroll AND a Stop Watch. It might not seem that strong at first, but getting one draw more from the Scroll AND being able to use two more Danmaku at the same time without running to lose these uses by being hit (and having one more distance as well)... there's a reason the game limits you to one Artifact. ^^
Then again, the base deck only has three Artifact, so getting two, while possible, is rather infrequent to be a good passive ability.
I personally would probably not choose a character with the third ability, unless it came with something else. But then it might be too powerful. *shrug*

Adding all three of these together is definitely broken, though. xD;

Moogs Parfait

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Re: Danmaku!! RELEASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #569 on: July 07, 2015, 03:09:04 AM »
NCS is right about Nitori, also about Rin's power level.

I don't have time to write a big post, but I think you should take a step back with Rin.  It really seems like you want her to do all the things; which is a tempting thing for a favored character, but an important part of creativity is that restriction builds intensity.  Decide what kind of character you want Rin to be and make her only that.

FYI Carrot & I's favorite characters are Youmu and Reisen, both of them are very specialized in theme: Youmu always hits twice and Reisen is all about misdirection.

I don't know much of her history besides what's on the wiki, but as a deleted character she has a natural association with the void.  Additionally it seems due to the data we do have, she was a healer type. 

I think you're correctly identified Meiling as a possible inspiration for Rin, the official team has another character that functions the same way already.  The Truant/Phasing ability though feels best when it is paired with a spell card that allows you to act out of turn. 

Additionally as a deleted character, consumption abilities (discarding cards for effects) also are in theme, so you're fine there.  I would however limit these abilities to "Use X card to gain X effect."  A list of options would be more in line with a Rinnosuke card, as you mentioned.

Both of these can also combine into a kind of vampirism or swapping ability.  Perhaps existance and non-existance?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 03:19:12 AM by Moogs Parfait »