Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Rebellion

[commandercool]

I been meaning to make a topic on this for a while, but I'm not sure what people's general viewing status is on it yet. Have you seen it? I have thoughts, but they're kind of contingent on seeing it a second time at some point before I really make a final call.

Spoiler:

Right now I tentatively absolutely loved it. I was semi-spoiled on it going in, but it really surprised me anyway. The direction it takes is both unexpected and consistent with the source material. It took me a while to even form an opinion since there was so much going on, but after a lot of thinking about it and reading into it, I think it all really worked. At least for me it did. And that fight scene, am I right? :V

Spoiler:

[PX]

Spoiler:

Nagisa was completely pointless :V

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Spoiler:

Sayaka is 100% redeemed in my eyes and she was by far the best character in the whole goddamn movie.

Homura, on the other hand, is finally portrayed honestly and therefore acceptable in my eyes. Homura is so much more interesting as a villain.

[Serela]

The ending credits song Kimi no gin no niwa, is <3<3<3 Here's the music video on not-youtube http://www.jpopsuki.tv/video/Kalafina---Kimi-no-Gin-no-Niwa/faa9e2defbb0268997efdb86c9d240d4

Spoiler:

Also, it's hard to tell at this point, but I wouldn't exactly call Homura a villain. She wants to rid the world of the curses Kyuubey has spread. I'm curious what implications that has for the current magical girls, though... and the strange conversation to Sayaka where she mentions maybe destroying the world after she finishes, which would make no sense. Of course, it's just a conversation, so who knows!

[Jana]

Spoiler:

Kujo Sayaka versus Homu Brando art when?

[Quukii]

My impression is somewhat negative, but I still enjoyed it. I'll definitely need to rewatch it sometime.

[Gpop]

Spoiler:

Sayaka is 100% redeemed in my eyes and she was by far the best character in the whole goddamn movie.

Basically this.

Spoiler:

She was a shit in the main series imo but was so much better in the movie

Also I want more Nagisa the movie did not do any justice to her whatsoever.

[Oh]

Homura did nothing wrong.

[pineyappled]

Homura did nothing wrong.

I don't really remember most of Rebellion, but creating countless timelines of your best friend dying/turning into a witch, nearly destroying the Earth, and getting your friends/friend's friends horribly killed or also turned into witches along the way was nothing wrong? Even if timelines don't work that way in Madokaverse, yooooo.

[Oh]

I don't really remember most of Rebellion, but creating countless timelines of your best friend dying/turning into a witch, nearly destroying the Earth, and getting your friends/friend's friends horribly killed or also turned into witches along the way was nothing wrong? Even if timelines don't work that way in Madokaverse, yooooo.

Homura only cares about Madoka's happiness. The world or her friends meant nothing to her. She did everything she could for her own wish, how is this in any way wrong?

[Chaore]

Spoiler:

From what I've heard It's everything I wanted.

Just not like this.

Not like this. >:

[Sagus]

Homura only cares about Madoka's happiness. The world or her friends meant nothing to her. She did everything she could for her own wish, how is this in any way wrong?

She's supremely selfish and cares only about HER desires. As it's clear in the end of the movie,

Spoiler:

Madoka will not be ok with what Homura did as she considers following laws and fullfilling your duty far more important than pursuing one's desires. If you honestly think forcing her version of happiness on others is not wrong...

Not to mention that

Spoiler:

now that Madoka is no longer (consciously) a god, the Law of Cycles was interrupted, and it's very likely that magical girls will go back to turn into witches when they fall in despair (and I'm pretty sure there's still magical girls; Homura subjugated the Incubators so they don't harass Madoka, but I doubt she cares about anyone else).

Not that I don't see why she'd become like that after all the crap she went through. Going throuh the same month for 12 years seeing everyone you care about die again and again and again would make anyone snap, sooner or later.

If anyone is up to reading a wall of text analysis of Homura and her actions on Rebellion, I think this one is absolutely spot-on.

[commandercool]

Homura only cares about Madoka's happiness. The world or her friends meant nothing to her. She did everything she could for her own wish, how is this in any way wrong?

Homura's basically a monster at this point, or at least seriously deranged, but that's allkay. It's more interesting that way.

Not that I don't see why she'd become like that after all the crap she went through. Going throuh the same month for 12 years seeing everyone you care about die again and again and again would make anyone snap, sooner or later.

Agreed. She obviously didn't start that way, but at some point her relationship with Madoka slipped into obsession and she became dangerously single-minded. That kind of worked out okay at first, but the exploration of how the semi-happy series ending is built on a tower of crazy is an interesting, ballsy direction to take an interesting, ballsy series.

If anyone is up to reading a wall of text analysis of Homura and her actions on Rebellion, I think this one is absolutely spot-on.

I skimmed it and will take a closer look tonight if I get the chance.

[Caterpie]

Spoiler:

Homura specifically states that the Law of the Cycles would not be interrupted, if I recall correctly.

I liked the movie a lot, despite bawling like a small child at the ending. Although,

Spoiler:

I have to say, I would have been more satisfied if the ending wasn't just to continue the franchise. The original plan was for Madoka to take Homura into heaven with her, but that was rejected in favor of continuing the series. Kinda disappointed with that :/

source for that last spoiler (you'll have to scroll down) (there's probably a better source somewhere but Whatever)

[Sagus]

I liked the movie a lot, despite bawling like a small child at the ending. Although,

Spoiler:

I have to say, I would have been more satisfied if the ending wasn't just to continue the franchise. The original plan was for Madoka to take Homura into heaven with her, but that was rejected in favor of continuing the series. Kinda disappointed with that :/

I kinda agree, although I must admit that if the ending we got leads to

Spoiler:

an epic Madokami VS Homucifer fight of universe shattering proportions in the next movie (if there really is another in production)

I'm more than fine with it (i'm shallow like that :V)

[Oh]

You people don't understand love.

[commandercool]

Although,

Spoiler:

I have to say, I would have been more satisfied if the ending wasn't just to continue the franchise. The original plan was for Madoka to take Homura into heaven with her, but that was rejected in favor of continuing the series. Kinda disappointed with that :/

Spoiler:

That was part of why it surprised me so much. A continuation of the series was not necessary, but this seems perfectly fitting if we're going to get one. I had high expectations, but was pleasantly surprised to find them somehow exceeded by something that's both true to the source material and its own distinct thing. I don't think this needs spoiler tags at this point, but whatever.

[Serela]

spoilering whole post because lazy

I don't really remember most of Rebellion, but creating countless timelines of your best friend dying/turning into a witch, nearly destroying the Earth, and getting your friends/friend's friends horribly killed or also turned into witches along the way was nothing wrong? Even if timelines don't work that way in Madokaverse, yooooo.

Spoiler:

This part certainly wasn't wrong. She repeatedly went back in time to try her absolute hardest to create a -happy- ending. Granted, for it to specifically be a happy ending for -Madoka- was far more important than for anyone else, but...

Anyway, we're not quite sure how things work in the new universe, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on that.

But as for what Homura did to Madoka... well, the foreshadowing is mostly just limited to the hairbraiding scene from the movie in the garden of flowers, but it's there. The conversation might be very false as Homura's talking to a Madoka without her memories, but she's told that Madoka's wish she made, where she had to leave the world, was very hard, and that it was painful, and that she didn't want to or have the strength to leave all her friends like that. You can tell it had an effect on Homura because she's immediately "Oh god...! I've made such a horrible mistake!"

So then when Homura got the chance... she took Madoka back into the world against her will, because even though Madoka had the strength to sacrifice herself, Homura wanted Madoka to be happy and not have to suffer. (Even if Madoka very well may have not been actually suffering- Homura had been lead to believe she was)

As for Homura being a little nuts, oh jeez, it's definitely supported by everything that's happened- even if I don't think she's quite as far off the deep end as many others think. Between the events of the original series, and then fighting in the new world while her fanatic love for Madoka has to coexist with Madoka's nonexistence (even making her call into question if Madoka -ever- was real and if she's crazy)... mphh. As well, her soul gem was going through corruption in the first new universe, as is foreshadowed by the ending scene of the series, with the witch-wings coming out of her. Soul gem corruption makes girls go a bit crazy, ontop of the already present issue of whatever it is causing it. Yeah... I'm curious what her personality is going to be like now, with her supposedly free from soul gem corruption (?) and Madoka being safe, and no worries of contracts and turning into witches.

But yeah, in high school I went through an ill-starred crush, and I can totally relate to a lot of Homura's feelings. If they had apparently been a magical person and gotten killed (As stupid as going down this line of thought is, I know), and then an incubator came up to me, there surely would have been a bad situation like the anime's one coming about. XD

That kind of love you go through when you're young and hormonal and inexperienced, it can be really fanatic. Homura's single-minded devotion is very realistic.

[commandercool]

Spoiler:

Soul gem corruption makes girls go a bit crazy, ontop of the already present issue of whatever it is causing it.

Wait, do we know that? Are you sure that's how that cause/effect works?

[Sagus]

You people don't understand love.

Hey do you know what we call a relationship where one part bully and forces the other to do what s/he doesn't want all the while insisting that it's for their own good and happiness?

an abusive relationship

that's exactly what Homura and Madoka's relationship ends up being

Spoiler:

Madoka really wasn't suffering anymore, she was doing what she thought was best, what she WANTED to do. She's the kind of person that puts the well-being of others above her own, and what Homura did to her completely denied her. I mean, this is certainly not the face of someone that's glad for what Homura ended up doing for her.

[Serela]

Wait, do we know that? Are you sure that's how that cause/effect works?

It happens just about every time in the series/mangas that someone's soul gem is significantly corrupted, apart from maybe Kazumi Magica, but that one is such a "what the fuck" anyway.

In the Another Story one,

Spoiler:

Mami explicitly comments on it, talking about the horrible thoughts coming into her mind and how it's like she's drowning in grief. This fits perfectly with how Sayaka's actions grow worse as her soul gem corrupts, like the scene where she confronts Madoka on the bench in the rain and then runs away sobbing going "What did I just say?! I'm a monster beyond saving" or similar, and several other original series Sayaka scenes.

Sagus:

Spoiler:

As I said; Madoka probably wasn't suffering anymore, however, Homura had been lead by Madoka to believe she -was- suffering greatly, regardless of the fact that the hairbraiding conversation was probably not-reliable due to Madoka not having any memories. As Homura is doing it, she says no one will understand, but it's all for Madoka's sake.

[commandercool]

It happens just about every time in the series/mangas that someone's soul gem is significantly corrupted, apart from maybe Kazumi Magica, but that one is such a "what the fuck" anyway.

In the Another Story one,

Spoiler:

Mami explicitly comments on it, talking about the horrible thoughts coming into her mind and how it's like she's drowning in grief. This fits perfectly with how Sayaka's actions grow worse as her soul gem corrupts, like the scene where she confronts Madoka on the bench in the rain and then runs away sobbing going "What did I just say?! I'm a monster beyond saving" or similar, and several other original series Sayaka scenes.

Spoiler:

I didn't finish Another Story, but in Sayaka's case it seems to me that her soul gem is turning black because she's starting to crack under stress, not that she's acting out because her soul gem is corrupting. I'll have to keep an eye on that next time I re-watch it, whenever that is.

[Serela]

Spoiler:

I didn't finish Another Story, but in Sayaka's case it seems to me that her soul gem is turning black because she's starting to crack under stress, not that she's acting out because her soul gem is corrupting. I'll have to keep an eye on that next time I re-watch it, whenever that is.

I think it's more that each of those things combined just make the other worse. It happening from stress alone seems like a bit of a stretch for a few of the things, like the train scene. (fairly sure we don't need to spoiler around the original anime stuff since that was years ago and this is a thread for it's sequel, etc)

Another Story was the more definitive example though, yeah. Sayaka events just support it.

[Sagus]

Sagus:

Spoiler:

As I said; Madoka probably wasn't suffering anymore, however, Homura had been lead by Madoka to believe she -was- suffering greatly, regardless of the fact that the hairbraiding conversation was probably not-reliable due to Madoka not having any memories. As Homura is doing it, she says no one will understand, but it's all for Madoka's sake.

Spoiler:

The whole hair-braiding scene just shows how utterly selfless Madoka is; she says she'd never go to a place "so far away that they can't see each other again" not because she knows what the events that led to her doing that entailed, but because it'd make people she love suffer. Yeah, she also says she thinks she wouldn't have the corage to do it even if it couldn't be helped, but as we clearly saw in the series proper, she DOES have that courage, and if she could remember the reason she did it (stop the suffering from ALL magical girls, which would INCLUDE Homura), that conversation would certainly be very different. Although considering Homura's mental state at that moment, it wouldn't be surprising if what she did get out of that conversation is that Madoka would be happier if she never became a god.

An interpretation that was entirely negated by the conversation she has with Madoka in the school corridor in the new world, but hey, it was too late by then.

In the end it really doesn't matter what Homura's intentions were (and going by the way she acts throught the whole final act (

Spoiler:

after she becomes Homucifer, I mean

), I find it hard to believe they were pure to begin with), what matters is that she did things that Madoka explicitly did not want her to (and explicitly did not NEED to be done) "for her sake". And I really can't see that as anything but abusive and self-serving.

[Oh]

Spoiler:

Homura only cares about Madoka, not Law of Cycles Madoka

[Caterpie]

Alright, I'm going to go on a short, spoiler-tagged rant about Homura here, because I love her and I want her and Madoka to be happy together.

Spoiler:

First off, if it weren't for that final part of Rebellion, where Homura explicitly goes against Madoka's wishes, their relationship wouldn't be considered abusive. Yes, in the main series, Homura was acting selfishly selfless, in that she was willing to let everyone else die if only to prevent Madoka from harm, but in the end of the series, Homura cares about Madoka, and wants her to be happy. I can see where the ending of Rebellion comes from, but it seems a little bit out of character for Homura. That aside, their relationship at the end of Rebellion is definitely abusive.

Also, that part about Homura's soul gem changing to something "worse than a curse?" Total bullshit. Way to break the goddamn rules of your own series. You're telling me that in the entire history of magical girls, Homura was the only one to fall in love? Bull.

Anyway.

Homura is not perfect by any means. She claims to be in love with Madoka, but in reality, she's only in love with an ideal of Madoka. She wants Madoka to be happy, yes, but she wants Madoka to be happy on her terms. Homura could have learned to love the real Madoka, as opposed to the ideal, if she hadn't done what she did. As it is now, she's only just starting to realize that what she did was wrong. In the main series, she couldn't let herself think that, because if she had begun to doubt herself, she would have fallen into despair and become a witch.

Homura did not free Madoka. Homura freed herself. Now, she can search her feelings and think about what is really is best for Madoka. If there is another movie, I think it'll be about Homura realizing that Madoka can't be happy the way the world is, and freeing her to become a goddess again.

And then? Yeah, there's probably going to be a Madokami/Homucifer fight. And it will be sad, and I will cry again, and I will still love Homura.

That might have not made a lot of sense. Sorry, I tend to ramble.

Spoiler:

Homura only cares about Madoka, not Law of Cycles Madoka

Spoiler:

Law of Cycles Madoka is Madoka. You can't care about one and not the other. This is exactly what I meant by Homura falling in love with an ideal.

[Sagus]

Spoiler:

Homura only cares about Madoka, not Law of Cycles Madoka

...they are the same person

Madoka didn't magically change personalities when she become Hope. She was always that person that wants to protect others above all.

Homura, as she is now, only wants to keep Madoka to herself, to keep her "safe" in her own twisted idea of what it means for Madoka to be "safe" (powerless and incapable of doing what she wants to do the most (that is, help other people)). That's all there is to it.

Spoiler:

Also, that part about Homura's soul gem changing to something "worse than a curse?" Total bullshit. Way to break the goddamn rules of your own series. You're telling me that in the entire history of magical girls, Homura was the only one to fall in love? Bull.

Maybe not the only one to fall in love, but maybe the only one that had the sentiment slowly corrupt and fester in her soul gem, alongside all the other impurity that goes in it, for the equivalent of 12 years.

I agree with the rest of your post, although I don't really think it was out of character for her to do what she did. I see it as a she having finally simply snapped completely ("i fought hard for 12 years to save madoka then she goes away forever and no one remembers her then the incubators fuck with me AGAIN to try to fuck with her AGAIN NO SCREW EVERYTHING I'LL HAVE WHAT I WANT FOR A CHANGE").

Like, I can't deny that I'd probably do the exact same thing if I were in her place. The shit she went through is not something anyone would ever be able to escape unscathed.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Alright, I'm going to go on a short, spoiler-tagged rant about Homura here, because I love her and I want her and Madoka to be happy together.

Spoiler:

First off, if it weren't for that final part of Rebellion, where Homura explicitly goes against Madoka's wishes, their relationship wouldn't be considered abusive. Yes, in the main series, Homura was acting selfishly selfless, in that she was willing to let everyone else die if only to prevent Madoka from harm, but in the end of the series, Homura cares about Madoka, and wants her to be happy. I can see where the ending of Rebellion comes from, but it seems a little bit out of character for Homura. That aside, their relationship at the end of Rebellion is definitely abusive.

It's not out of character at all, though.

You can say that TV anime Homura was working in Madoka's best interest and wanted her to be happy, but do you see much of Madoka being happy at all in the series? Especially when Homura's around? No, and this is because Homura is always working for Madoka's best interest and happiness on her terms, not Madoka's. A huge thing about Madoka's character is that she wants to help people at all costs. Kyouko even calls Madoka out on this because making a wish on a whim like that is very foolish. However, she still leaves the choice up to her. Homura, on the other hand, does everything she possibly can to keep Madoka under her terms of 'safe and happy'-- but in Madoka's eyes, more than anything, she just feels worthless and powerless. Homura took Madoka's agency away, making her feel as if she can't help anyone, and has to watch her best friend and new senpai get killed right before her eyes-- all the while knowing that if she were able to contract, she could have helped them! So add guilt on top of all of that, and Homura's utter obliviousness to this, because she doesn't care about Madoka being happy on her own terms-- especially if those terms don't involve her. Madoka contracting and sacrificing her human life to not only save everyone from Walpurgisnacht, but also retroactively save all magical girls and change the system they were currently in. And she was happy about that. Even if it's not what Homura wanted.

Spoiler:

That's why what Homura did in Rebellion wasn't out of character at all-- it was just her working on Madoka's behalf without any sort of concerns for her feelings or her actual happiness. And they could have been happy together in meguca heaven with Sayaka and Nagisa, too! But that's not good enough for Homura, apparently.

If anyone is up to reading a wall of text analysis of Homura and her actions on Rebellion, I think this one is absolutely spot-on.

I'm glad you liked it. I've definitely had some mixed responses on that analysis ranging from agreement to alternative ideas and valid counterpoints to frothing rage.

[pineyappled]

Spoiler:

Homura only cares about Madoka, not Law of Cycles Madoka

You know, it's perfectly okay to like a character and accept that they're flawed.

[Sagus]

You know, it's perfectly okay to like a character and accept that they're flawed.

Exactly. You don't have to defend their terrible actions just 'cause you like them.

I'm glad you liked it. I've definitely had some mixed responses on that analysis ranging from agreement to alternative ideas and valid counterpoints to frothing rage.

Huh, that's your tumblr? What a coincidence! I was that anon that sent you the "your homura meta was spot on but you forgot to say she didn't start that way (etc etc)" msg. Small internet, eh =P