Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F

[Pesco]

True hard mode is to play the game without using any subclasses.

[Kirin no Sora]

Sounds like a self imposed challenge to consider, yes?

Meiling uses Healer.
Meiling is confused!
Meiling hurts herself in confusion!

Reimu uses Exorcising Border.
Reimu is confused!
Reimu hurts herself in confusion!

In short , confusion is very crippling as not only will a misfire cause a crucial spell card to not fire, causing you to lose a character and perhaps the battle but if a healer gets confused, it is very difficult for them to remove it on themselves. 

Well, that would be the point, wouldn't it?

I have never liked confuse in any rpg ever. Blind would be ok I guess but in reality I'm sure every boss would be near, if not completely immune, except for maybe a gimmick boss or two that nearly require it. I doubt it will happen though, not just for fun reasons (it will not be for most of us), but the status menus will have to be reworked for it.

Reworking the system to accommodate these two ailments is part of why I consider said thought as "won't ever be added for this game, but is interesting to think about".

Come to think of it, Blind and Confusion could be considered the most devastating status ailments to be hit with(outside of Instant Death, of course), which kind of says a lot about how something so simple, so prevalent in other games as common status effects, could become so terrifying during a boss fight in Labyrinth of Touhou 2...

In fact, if a sort of "Bad Breath" attack was to be created and used by a boss, then even without Blind and Confusion joining in, such a move could become rather messy to deal with...

[Ghaleon]

Except there are such moves already. Take eiki for example... Didnt komachi also use one? Prob more im not aware of.

And yeah, sounds like hard mode is already what im already doing since i want the bonus items from bosses. Skill levels are just that naturally.

[DA]

True hard mode is to play the game without using any subclasses.

Oh so I how I normally play the game until I get to the final boss where I actually feel alright spending skill points on subclasses unless the character is Eirin then I say BRING IN THE HEALER SUBCLASS.

[Ghaleon]

I pretty much subclassed all my haracters that scream "make me this sub" and had 2 stones of awakening. I wanted a healer sub because i had nobody (who i currently use for my party) who could cure remi of her self-inflicted status ailments. I ended up choosing aya, partially because she had skillpoints to spare, partially because she could swap in and cure remi faster than anyone, plus her attack stat isnt a slouch so she could hopefully cure decently well eventually too (dunno yet since i didnt get cure for her yet).

In any case, im actually thinking its a good fit for her... Sounds really odd though, healer is one of the last things i would expect her to be =p.

Anyway, so far ive noticed that patchy, youmu, and kaggy all seem to have taken some noticeable nerfs in this game. Marisa took a slightly smaller nerf (asteroid belt no longer pierces defenses and smokes trash as well, nor does she seem to be super quick anymore, last, mana regeneration when switched out speeds seem way slower than in laby 1, making her swap in master spark swap out routine far less effective... Oh and master spark isnt even as powerful. It hit tenshi for 0... 0... Nitori still hit her for like 8k though with 3d scope. And her mnd was in fact lower than her def). Magicl missle on the other hand seems like it pierces pretty well like asteroid belt used to.

Cirno seemed more useful, rumia seems flat out good now (and i dont mean late game only), and aya seems far more bruiserey now than before too... Dodging well is an obvious plus too, as is having kaggy's old stone bowl effect too. Aya is great now, and she wasn even less than average before imo.

I have a feeling kanako is good for more than just a good cold nuke too now but didnt try her at all.

What characters do you guys think seem to have moved up or down in the ranks, and why?

[Yookie]

Kanako was mostly dead weight outside of her cold nuke in 1 since she was a little bit more robust but lacked the offensive power and ended up not being able to take major hits or deal proper damage.

Yuuka was hugely buffed with her skillset that greatly synergizes with itself. Even though she spells she has are the same as in 1 (and missing the multitarget masterspark) and even though they still do the same she can actually make use of her utility thanks to her staying power and extra-attack (Didn't stop me from having her in my party in LoT1 too.)

Keine is no longer obsolete (what she did was done better by other people in 1) but I didn't really use her too much.

Even though many people say that Okuu isn't really good she does become rather useful later on if you build her somewhat robust so that she can stack her overheat and fighting spirit charges. If you give her enough HP she becomes kinda Komachi-esque having low defenses (thanks to her self-debuffing) but enough HP to take hits and even her damage is alright.
In 1 she just killed herself. :V

Other characters also got kind of better but not as noticable as these from the ones I've used.

[Xarizzar]

Anyway, so far ive noticed that patchy, youmu, and kaggy all seem to have taken some noticeable nerfs in this game. Marisa took a slightly smaller nerf (asteroid belt no longer pierces defenses and smokes trash as well, nor does she seem to be super quick anymore, last, mana regeneration when switched out speeds seem way slower than in laby 1, making her swap in master spark swap out routine far less effective... Oh and master spark isnt even as powerful. It hit tenshi for 0... 0... Nitori still hit her for like 8k though with 3d scope. And her mnd was in fact lower than her def). Magicl missle on the other hand seems like it pierces pretty well like asteroid belt used to.

I have also noticed that Youmu's attacks aren't that powerful. I did need a powerful physical attacker, and I some people I know from this forum were saying that she was really really good, but for some reason, I couldn't get her to deal much damage as an attacker. I don't know, maybe I've used her "incorrectly"? I gave her the Warrior subclass and kept raising her attack, and still when she was fully buffed, her "Slash of Eternity" didn't really as much damage as I had expected. I don't know, really. Maybe because I use broken characters like Suika, Yuugi, Kaguya, Yuuka and Shiki Eiki?

[ZXNova]

Confusion is an absolute nono. I'm serious about that. I hate confusion with all my heart. Blind would be kind of annoying, and honestly don't think it would be necessary.

Yeah, when I first fought Mirror it killed me so hard. I think I died like 20 times to that thing. Mainly cause after losing a certain amount of HP, Mirror gets faster and starts hitting harder, which really annoyed me. So I had to change up my strategy. Basically when Mirror gets faster and stronger, I have to start spamming attacks immediately. Just go all out until it uses super mana depletion. Afterwards I have to quickly restore mana and try to stall the best way I can so that Kaguya can start spamming Swallow's Corie Shell, and/or Hina gets enough mana to start debuffing. Was an annoying battle and precision was greatly needed, but that's how I eventually beat it.

Magatama wasn't as bad imo. Even though it used an attack that took everyone's HP down to 1, It wasn't as defensive and didn't hit as hard. So all I had to do is make sure Reimu or Minoriko/Eirin was still alive so that they could heal everyone and heal Komachi/Meiling. Also debuffing them with Hina. Did I ever tell you how amazing Hina is?

And ofc 3rd Tenshi... Aaaaaaaaaaa, so many horrible memories. The various times I'm trying to buff and switch out someone and then Tenshi is just spamming VIOLENT MOTHERLAND over and over and over and over, basically messing up Reimu's heals, and just being very very annoying. Hina is just trying to debuff Tenshi, but Tenshi still hits fairly hard with -50% Atk, stupid violent motherland. Me trying to switch out Yuugi/Alice to apply a silence/heavy so that I can use Kasen/Reisen/Hina to use their darkness attacks to scratch Tenshi... Oh my god.

[Thata no Guykoro]

The Mirror and the Magatama held me up for like a month combined. I just kept getting squashed by them both for one reason or another - the mirror kept overpowering me with moves and the magatama went too fast, especially with black universe. (So glad the 20f version ditched it)

3rd Tenshi turned out to be hilariously easy in my experience by spamming Giga Flare/Dark Side of the Moon/Hourai Barrage over and over. Too bad she lost her 9F resistances to those :V

As for Youmu, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of her by making her a combination attacker/defender rather than a raw attack. Her skills of HP regeneration and statboosts with max MP honestly feel a lot more defensively oriented, and by making her a monk they can be combined with monk passive boosts to be even better.

[Dodging_Rain]

Sakuya, between piercing attack and extra attack, seems a lot stronger now than her LoT1 counterpart especially if the RNG smiles upon you.  Actually anyone with extra attack will notice a larger offensive boost.
This one is more cotroversial but I think Rinnosuke may become more versatile with his high boost on whatever you want him to be which at least is not a one-trick wonder.
Aya seems more solid than before and pretty damn versatile with her speed matching well with a lot of the subclasses.  And than her instant turn saves me more times than I could bother to keep track.
And then there is Nitori with Maintenance, Overheat, and Cooldown.

Yukari has taken a huge nerf due to Spiriting Away now taking all of your MP but that fix was warranted since it was a game-breaker in LoT1. 
Patchouli has it pretty hard since a lot more enemies now has multi-target that target def and unless you have Aya, she pulls out her nukes way too slow due to the fact that enemies are going to be faster than many of your members now.
It's not that Wriggle is bad but she has less uses in LoT2 during the normal game since more bosses are poison resistant than the previous.  I haven't done enough post game to gauge her properly post-game.

@Ghaleon, Healer Aya isn't too farfetch, I mean I made Aya a Magician which is even odder.

[ZXNova]

Patchouli has it pretty hard since a lot more enemies now has multi-target that target def and unless you have Aya, she pulls out her nukes way too slow due to the fact that enemies are going to be faster than many of your members now.


@Ghaleon, Healer Aya isn't too farfetch, I mean I made Aya a Magician which is even odder.

I wouldn't exactly say that every boss has a multi-hitting attack that targets your defense, it's the fact that physical is an element of attack, and Patchy only has 60 resistance to it. So even with her sky high mind, there will probably be a magic boss who uses a physical attack that attacks your mind, and Patchy can't take that.

Oh yeah, I should also probably mention the Ran and Alice boss fights. Those two bosses have magic attacks that attack your defense, so I guess there's an example of an "unorthodox magic boss", I think there are other magic bosses like that too.

[Ghaleon]

Pretty sure there are more bosses with multi attacks that target defense over mnd moreso than physical.

The thing is even if an attack does physical damage but is mitigated by mnd, patchy should take it well because resistance penalties are calculated AFTER defense/mnd reduction. So 0 will stay 0, and 100 will be 140.

Instead she is routinely taking hits for 1kish in the back from attacks that are flearly targetting defense because everyone elsw with high mnd and low defense like rumia, minoruke, marisa, etc also get blown sky high by them.

Speaking of magician, im thinking of making minoruke my magician. Her mp pool is high, she gets a ton back via concentrate if needed, and is pretty darn fast herself now

[Serela]

Minoriko's mp pool flows disturbingly fast, her 7mp spell is affordable even at the very beginning. Passively buffing MAG for the party is cool, and she's still a great mnd tank, so she can get some extra support from a subclass and have usefulness for the whole game; if you want a Magician she's an awesome choice.

Kaguya was nerfed, but she was OP in the first game. She would have been a solid character -without- ignoring all mnd for no reason, now she still does it but it's more balanced and she's limited by MP until you can manage to patch it up with equipment. After you get that equipment, I imagine she's pretty awesome, but I'm not using her so I wouldn't be sure.

Yukari is a pretty great tank in this game, her healing passive is really effective and she spreads her def/mnd manipulation passive to the whole front row which can be really good, along with having a copy of Reimu's def/mnd party buff. I... I actually couldn't get her to die against the 19F boss, and had to quit the game in order to start over. She just wouldn't die.

Sakuya is better because SPD scales better, at least for more of the game than it used to. I dunno, if you aren't running the whole SDM team she doesn't seem that good for attacking; but Extra Attack plus Lunar Clock and Enhancer subclass for more buffs (since they'll multicast) and having healing buffs is really selling it for me.

Kanako is pretty good in this game once you can get her stats up and rolling. Sanae is much better now too and Suwako is a good glass cannon gambler so you can run the Moriyas pretty effectively.

Cirno is actually worth considering to use now, as MT Paralysis and intense speed debuffs are now rarities, and she passively debuffs speed as well. She's more durable (she was buffed in 1.20x) and she can actually deal alright damage unlike in Laby1. With Rumia also being a surprisingly great character, you've got incentive to lug Wriggle around and throw in Mystia so you can take advantage of their ridiculous team bonus. Wriggle isn't bad if the boss doesn't resist poison, but she was better in Laby1... I wonder how poison damage scales lategame here.

And Rinnosuke... is actually a VERY potent character after you get the points for it. ALL of his high boosts are extremely powerful and turn the stat in question to something completely top-of-the-line even compared to the best, and he gets efficient formation change and ATK/MAG debuffs from taking a turn. The hardest part is just deciding what to do, and what subclass will be good enough with minimum points invested to get some skill for him to scrub around with while he godtanks and debuffs by simply existing. He's a pretty good character around lv60, in postgame content it must be simply ridiculous...

[Krimmydoodle]

This is a weird question, but if anyone has a patch for Labyrinth 2 v1.200 exactly (only the patch of course, I know not to ask for the actual game), could I get a link for it?  I'm kinda obsessive about holding on to as many versions of a game as possible due to a curiosity of assorted glitches/version differences, and I realized I missed this one when it was available.

Edit: Another round of smarter searching and I managed to find it, so this can be ignored.

[Ghaleon]

This is a weird question, but if anyone has a patch for Labyrinth 2 v1.200 exactly (only the patch of course, I know not to ask for the actual game), could I get a link for it?  I'm kinda obsessive about holding on to as many versions of a game as possible due to a curiosity of assorted glitches/version differences, and I realized I missed this one when it was available.

Edit: Another round of smarter searching and I managed to find it, so this can be ignored.

I looked and had it too.. BAWWW

Just for that you must answer that question not asked (but supported) by me regarding the translation patch with the updated victory screen!

edit: So I'm using remilia and not kasen despite my balance complaints mostly because remi is the closest thing to a "waifu" I have in touhou (tied with patchy and flan...refer to my avatar for the actual closest thing to a waifu I have), but partially because I refuse to use kasen to obsoleteificate remi and haven't lost 12 times yet (I spent 1 on 12f mirror, 2 on 12 magatama, and 3 on Tenshi #2)...and....and...I decided they (all 1 of the devs) indirectly nerfed her via giving virtually no items in the game with poison AND par resist. I don't think I have a single one with even MINOR amounts of both STILL except for the occasional +10/20 to absolutely everything type items.

I'm starting to think even in post game, having someone to cure remi from her own damn buff is going to be required to make use of it. Whereas before I could basically scrap that worry at approximately 13f. Granted I'm only at 13f now, but not only am I not done worrying about it, but I'm like "damn....I don't have a single item that does both yet". NOR do I have one that resists even just one of them but provides meaningful stat boosts in traditional stats as well.. just poison resist ring, par resist ring, etc.

My point is... DA GAME DEV IS A SDM TRAITOR!!! He clearly gave preferential treatment to the SDM last game and and.... I thought we here kindered spirits, and and *sniffle*, and and... *BAWWWWWW*.

[Serela]

It'd be worth exploring how realistic it'd be to plan for Remi to actually get inflicted by one of her statuses, and skill her as a Toxicologist for the passive that converts her ailment into hp/mp regen. She also has Adversity to increase her damage while inflicted, which, since she does it to herself, is relevant.

[Ghaleon]

her poison and par ALWAYS land EVERY time for me...which you may think is good. but even if she gets buffed from par...she's still effing par'd.. good luck doing damage without moving before curing it first!...as for poison, it drops her hp from full to omgwtf omgomg imma die! in no time flat. If I was willing to sacrifice survivability for damage, I think gambler would not only provide more damage, but would actually be safer (taking 2x damage isn't as bad as going from 2nd highest hp to 1 in seconds).

that said, I don't even consider gambler a good sub for her.

[ZXNova]

It'd be worth exploring how realistic it'd be to plan for Remi to actually get inflicted by one of her statuses, and skill her as a Toxicologist for the passive that converts her ailment into hp/mp regen. She also has Adversity to increase her damage while inflicted, which, since she does it to herself, is relevant.

I actually never thought about that. Seems like a cool idea.

[Dodging_Rain]

Heavy doesn't stay on her long enough, paralyze is obviously no good, and poison deals more damage to her than she can recover as well as put her in a precarious situation until you get a lot more HP post game to utilize it.

[Ghaleon]

So uhh...on 14f, the memorized knowledge boss 1shots my entire party...no exceptions... my entire party. my best tanks at 100% +mnd? 1snot. patchy? yep, momiji? yep, remi? yep, marisa? yep... no exceptions.. I COULD decide to not use level unification to reach the bonus level but otherwise everyone gets 1shot...sad thing is I tend to spec defensive builds on my characters MORE than virtually everyone else.... In short, this is a stupid as fuck piece of shit boss fight worse than what the designer proved themself capable of with touhou laby 1.

yeah I'm sure some guy or two will state hurr it was easy you're a moron or whatever but despite that I'm not lying. Yeah I know I can put mystic resist gear on my very best mnd-resist characters e, but that's only a select few. Even if it's possible given certain circumstances, the whole design of this boss is not only far more stupid than a poorly designed rpg like those of modern FF games, but beyond that beyond imagination given how miraculously good I thought laby 1 was.

[Yookie]

Yes, that boss is sort of stupid. Just wait for V2 later. :V (Well, it's not much different...)
How I did it:

Spoiler:

Sacrificed all but 3 people: 1 to take the hit and switch around, 1 to deal damage, 1 to heal

The way it works just isn't much fun. You move along a list of given commands since the boss does the same and forces you to follow up or rather be ahead. No variations or anything, makes it quite boring and longwinded

[Kirin no Sora]

Question: Does the strength of the ailments inflicted on Remi via "Curse of Vlad Tepes" decrease when you level up the spell? Because maybe that could help you out.

Is it not possible to increase one's resistance to both Poison and Paralysis to the point that said ailments are unable to stick via said buff? If one must prioritize which one is to be halted first, I would suggest Paralysis, as there is an option to dealing with the damage that Poison delivers...

Said option happens to be Wriggle, whose skill set can reduce the damage that Poison deals to allies(she has two skills that do this, meaning that she can slow the damage down enough for Remi to not die from the Poison), plus she can gain strength from any Poison that Remi is under in the first place.

[Dodging_Rain]

I was able to beatt Memorized Knowledge with having Komachi and Hina loaded with mystic affinty gear and HP and Aya with full built speed.  Komachi can survive a flare easily, Hina can survive it as she is fully "debuffed" while debuffing Memorized Knowledge's stats.  Aya is for her extra turn and getting out of there when it is about to use its attack.  Nitori helps a lot in this regards by nuking it down while Chen can tear it a new one.

Edit: I am thoroughly convinced that Strengthed Mirror Magatama, and the twin wisps have a speed of 1000  as they are able to keep up with Cirno who has slightly above that.
Edit 2: Scratch that.  Those wasps has quite a lot more if being debuffed at -21% still allows them to keep up with Cirno!

[ZXNova]

So uhh...on 14f, the memorized knowledge boss 1shots my entire party...no exceptions... my entire party. my best tanks at 100% +mnd? 1snot. patchy? yep, momiji? yep, remi? yep, marisa? yep... no exceptions.. I COULD decide to not use level unification to reach the bonus level but otherwise everyone gets 1shot...sad thing is I tend to spec defensive builds on my characters MORE than virtually everyone else.... In short, this is a stupid as fuck piece of shit boss fight worse than what the designer proved themself capable of with touhou laby 1.

yeah I'm sure some guy or two will state hurr it was easy you're a moron or whatever but despite that I'm not lying. Yeah I know I can put mystic resist gear on my very best mnd-resist characters e, but that's only a select few. Even if it's possible given certain circumstances, the whole design of this boss is not only far more stupid than a poorly designed rpg like those of modern FF games, but beyond that beyond imagination given how miraculously good I thought laby 1 was.

The thing I used was Hina, Komachi, Aya, and Tenshi in the front line at first. Koma and Hina with Mystic Resist to survive flare and debuff, and Tenshi to knock off the buffs (with maxed out Scarlet Perception) so that Koma and Hina can truly debuff it. Even though Tenshi's Scarlet Perception sometimes doesn't act right, I can use Aya to use Divine Grandson's Advent to put her back at full ATB to use it again.

Yeah, Memorized Knowledge is pretty dumb. Especially since Tenshi's Scarlet Perception doesn't always act right. I found it slightly annoying, but it isn't the worst. The giant blue oni was worse. From what I heard, the strengthened memorized knowledge (and giant blue oni) are really difficult. One of the hardest strengthened bosses.

[Thata no Guykoro]

From what I heard, the strengthened memorized knowledge (and giant blue oni) are really difficult. One of the hardest strengthened bosses.

It turns out the Strengthen Memorized Knowledge can be hit with shock, so you can always try locking it down with that? That's what I did, at least. (Took several tries, though...) Don't have any advice on the giant, though - haven't beaten that one yet.

[Axel Ryman]

Haven't done any actual progress the past few days in my run, but was doing some future ideas.


1: Getting Wriggle is definite. She'll help a lot against Hina since I can't inflict Ailments or Debuffs on her except Poison (Unless something was changed so she reacts to Poison). Hina's gimmick make Kasen worthless, so I lose out on the power she brings here.

2: Since I plan on farming FOEs for some decent quick exp, I'll probably be able to kill at least 10, meaning I can grab Yuugi. Since I can wait till I can sufficiently beat her fast enough, I might grab her. KOitS might be worth using, especially since there are some Physical weak bosses on the later floors and she has the highest ATK stat growth.

3: Knew this for months, but THANK GOD I CAN SKIP THE FLOOR 4 FOE!!! Seriously screw that guy

4: Since I put Kaguya in the mix for a fight, I might think about throwing Mokou in as well. With this, I can grab Mokou on 5F and then grab

Spoiler:

Reisen

on 7F. The debuffs will help out, especially after I get Broken Aya.

5: Back to point 1, I might be able to grab Parsee as well, which will help against Hina. And give me a Mind tank as well.

6: I forget when I get my first Stone of Awakening. I need to look at the maps, but if I get it before Hina, I can make Wriggle's Poison more potent. If not, it's not a major loss.

7: Trying to look at possible Skills to get and Subclasses to use on characters I will/may get. So far I made a Pastebin for this specifically, It can be found here http://pastebin.com/7Dcw1eZW

8: If my money gain is enough, I might be able to grab Suika. In normal play, I've managed to 1 shot Sakuya with her. I doubt I can get that in a speedrun, but I can at least deal a large enough amount of damage to cripple her. Even then, she can still output a lot of damage on Wind/Nature weak enemies.

9: A number of the characters I will be grabbing I'm not entirely sure what to do with, mainly Satori,

Spoiler:

Kanako, and Suwako

. Others I have an idea of what to do with them, but I'm not entirely sure how useful they'll be, like

Spoiler:

Tenshi, Yuyuko, and Yukari

10: Thanks to an awesome guy, they've given me 1.40 and 1.50 so I can check out the Hard Mode Boss Skip glitch, and the Unification glitch respectively. This won't be for a while though.



Are spoilers still necessary?

[Kuilfrayt]

Are spoilers still necessary?

Other than maybe the extra part after you've beaten the normal Ame-no-Murakumo, and even then, probably not worth it. The only spoiler that will really be necessary will be for the Plus Disk when people start playing it.

[Dodging_Rain]

Hina helped me bring that guy's buff down but I needed Aya + Hina combo to get that working.

[Ghaleon]

Wait what. How to skip floor 4 foe?

[DA]

Ok so I never used this type item before but how do the growth eggs and shoes of happiness work. Do they go for just that character or does it increase exp for everyone and do the characters need to be in the front line.