DMF Wiki - This needs to get worked on

[Helepolis]

I have been browsing the MotK DMF wiki yesterday and this morning and confused about the current state of the wiki. There is a lot missing, discrepancy or worded poor if correct. Some pages are broken and others are linking wrong. TL DR: Wiki needs work and I will be personally taking a lead in this.

http://dmf.shrinemaiden.org/wiki/Main_Page

Note
Beforehand, let me clearly put this without spinning too much around the subject: DMF wiki is a source for knowledge sharing and contributions done to Danmakufu it self and for that sole purpose only. It is not a general wiki, since clearly it says "dmf wiki". Therefore any noise pages are subject to removal/editing.

What needs to be done?
A quick personal brainstorm and quick dirty scan leads to the following:
- Rescanning the main pages for broken links / flow issues / discrepancies (I noticed the 0.12m link results in a huge error).
- Focus more on ph3 while retaining 0.12m. (ph3 is the new engine, mkm is obviously putting his time and effort in it and no longer in 0.12m. While we respect the old engine, it is not our goal).
- 0.12m pages need to be archived proper with preferable overview like ph3 page.
- ph3 needs to be put more to the front, but not yet quite sure in what shape.
- DMF Wiki is not a place for "circles" or "groups". This isn't your personal homepage, we share a common knowledge goal. MotK is the leading forum, Wiki is the supporting knowledge base to transfer more threads into wiki pages. Therefore, All group pages and "history" are subject to removal.

It is time to put the wiki more into knowledge base, I will also personally contribute more ph3 video tutorials this weekend.

We'll worry about the graphical looks later for DMF wiki, though "graphical" in the sense of organisation is always welcome.

--Helepolis


Suggestions / changes required for the front main page.

• Left hand navigation pane.
• Fixing 0.12m page error.

[Helepolis]

Elaborating further on this issue is the comparison to the japanese danmakufu wiki, namely: http://www.danmakufu.net/?FrontPage

Compared to them, our "wiki" looks like everything except a wiki.

I've been digging in the main page links and they lead to questionable areas. First we need to set down a structure. I am shamelessly going to  be some of a copy-cat with the JP wiki by creating a base structure.

So what do we need most importantly on the "front page" and what do we need on the sub pages? As we don't need to maintain 9999 touhou games and fangames, I am quite sure we can keep it simple but organised for now.

[ExPorygon]

If we're going to be doing this, then why not reorganize the Navigation tab on the left side of the main page. Most of the links there (ie Community Portal, Current Events, and Help) go to nonexistant pages. There are far better links we could have there, such as to function lists and other helpful articles.

[Helepolis]

Noted. Because indeed, the left navigation pane needs some work done.

Also, let us first focus on the main and most important pages which form the "core" of information. If we go too deep into details we will lose the overview. So purging / editing / creating the main pages and navigation on the left hand should be at this moment priority.

[Blargel]

A while back I did try some stuff to organize (added categories and moved pages around). I may inadvertently have caused some of the broken links you're seeing in the 0.12m pages.
Also, as a suggestion, I think we should try to remove the scripts that are being hosted by the wiki. Perhaps move them into a dummy account on BulletForge if the owners are no longer active in the community.

[PhantomSong]

- DMF Wiki is not a place for "circles" or "groups". This isn't your personal homepage, we share a common knowledge goal. MotK is the leading forum, Wiki is the supporting knowledge base to transfer more threads into wiki pages. Therefore, All group pages and "history" are subject to removal.

Why not? I'm assuming you're talking about LOCAA, and I'll say this:

-LOCAA is a large group of the English speaking Danmakufu community, with skill levels going from new to veteran. Nonetheless joining gives you a live time chat with people who can help you grow.
- Why should the wiki only be subjected to tutorials? It's a Danmakufu wiki and groups are a part of it.

And now a word from CK Crash

"tbh I don't understand why they feel the need to separate the danmakufu community from the danmakufu wiki? I mean like why does the wiki have to include everything BUT the community? blargel cites that there isn't a page for RaNGE contests, but why the hell not? I'm just saying, the function of the wiki as a reference is not hampered at all by the existence of community-related pages"

He does make good points. "Why separate the community from the Wiki?" If LOCAA has a contest, then let it live in history, so what if it's there?

[Helepolis]

Why not? I'm assuming you're talking about LOCAA, and I'll say this:

-LOCAA is a large group of the English speaking Danmakufu community, with skill levels going from new to veteran. Nonetheless joining gives you a live time chat with people who can help you grow.
- Why should the wiki only be subjected to tutorials? It's a Danmakufu wiki and groups are a part of it.

I am referring again to the Japanese danmakufu wiki once more as a set example. A wiki is a knowledge base aimed to guide and assist people for working with danmakufu or related sources. A "history" of a certain group of who was once a leader and some "quarrel" occurred is in my eyes noise and non-relevant information. It adds 0% to usefulness of Danmakufu.

This isn't your personal homespace to throw/toss everything on it as you please. Neither is it my personal wiki to delete/edit as I please, for that reason I have summoned this thread. So we can together brainstorm how to bring forward the knowledge sharing and diminish noise on the wiki. Opinions are bound to differ, but the main purpose of the wiki stands as a knowledge base.

Groups and contests are not danmakufu, they are events and communities related to danmakufu. MotK with RikaNitori and Touhou Projects already covers the community part.

I want to requote this part: "Nonetheless joining gives you a live time chat " #Danmakufu on ppirc already covers the chatting part and offers the same principal regarding having leisure chatting and questions about coding. Give me a good reason why #danmakufu is not harboured by those in the skype group? I am not asking about the need for private circles, I am asking about the general help in danmakufu.

And now a word from CK Crash

I am sure CK Crash aka Lucas can voice for himself. You don't have to do it for him you know?

[Blargel]

And now a word from CK Crash
He does make good points. "Why separate the community from the Wiki?" If LOCAA has a contest, then let it live in history, so what if it's there?

My opinion is that a wiki for a specific subject should stay on the topic of that subject. For example, in a wiki for an MMORPG, it would have as much information as possible about the different systems, monsters, items, npcs, and stuff like that. It would NOT have a list of every guild on every server because that is player created and managed, not intrinsically built into the system.

On the same note, the communities and contests that revolve around Danmakufu are not something built into Danmakufu. They are things that came about because people use Danmakufu. We can briefly mention them, just like how we can briefly mention that players can create guilds in the hypothetical MMORPG, but we should not be making a page for every community.

The only things that do belong in the wiki are, in my opinion, these:

• Syntax description
• List of functions, their parameters, and returned values
• Translations of error messages
• Tutorials
• List of known bugs

Yes, that does mean my documentation for the StB engine should, in my opinion, be deleted as well since pages for things created with Danmakufu do not fall into any of those categories. This particular point, however, would change in the future when the things I listed reach a certain standard of quality.

[Sparen]

PhantomSong:

I've saved the code for both LOCAA pages on my user page. If we do decide to get a legitimate home away from Skype, then the information and links are there.

[Helepolis]

Apparently none of the LOCAA members are interested enough to negotiate or discuss the matter as I yet have to receive answers on my questions.

Noticing Sparen has absolutely no interest (by posting non-relevant information to PhantomSong, which I am pretty sure counts as a PM made public) in discussing the matter. PhantomSong yet has to answer my questions.  So far only Ozzy and Blargel were bothered to suggest something in this thread. Which baffles me, as plenty of people have been editing the wiki if I scan the logs. Logically I am always happy with any contributions done but I would be happier if suggestions were made to shape it into more organised wiki.

I will be hauling the wiki tomorrow or sunday. I will lay out a core base based on so far discussed things here. I'll see if I can fiddle with some templates for looks without breaking too much things.

[Darkness1]

Do we have someone  who can translate japanese willing to help?
The Ph3 section is really outdated compared to the japanese based one.

Also, I think it would be cool to atleast have one full game linked there for danmakufu 0.12m and/or Ph3, as a good example of what can be done.
(I really have no experience with wikis ^^")

[Helepolis]

I can request help from Trancehime, who recently also started danmakufu (she had a thread somewhere with her first script).

Not sure if she has the time to go through them 1 by 1, we might as well form a list of functions that need translation and handle them like that. I'll ask Hime.

[gtbot]

What if someone's user page had the LOCAA information?

Besides that, would a translated change log that shows what has been added/modified between ph3 versions be worthwhile? I was thinking this could go on the main page, next to the link to the danmakufu download page. Somewhere else on the main page could also be a subsection for prominent bugs. In an effort to minimize 0.12m, how about removing its section on the front page, creating a new page containing the 0.12m information, and give it a link somewhere on the new front page? Arguably, this may seem a bit too much focus on ph3 (though I'm all for this idea).

In regards to consistency, I know I've used a different format for functions (same format as the 0.12m functions). but I'll do a sweep sometime soon and fix them up to match the format that's used for most ph3 functions.

If someone else could add all the missing functions to the main Functions page, I would translate and add the function information in their subpages.

Also, I think it would be cool to atleast have one full game linked there for danmakufu 0.12m and/or Ph3, as a good example of what can be done.

I second this How/If this would be done depends on the new template Helepolis uses though, and this should not be a top priority as of right now.

[trancehime]

I can request help from Trancehime, who recently also started danmakufu (she had a thread somewhere with her first script).

Not sure if she has the time to go through them 1 by 1, we might as well form a list of functions that need translation and handle them like that. I'll ask Hime.

I'm not sure if I can commit to translating all functions. Maybe, maybe not. I can't promise anything

[Blargel]

What if someone's user page had the LOCAA information?

For now they probably won't be touched, but if they begin to get abused, a policy should probably be written and enforced. For now, some guidelines to follow is to not insult or attack people on your user page, do not fill it with spam, do not use it like it's your FaceBook page.

Besides that, would a translated change log that shows what has been added/modified between ph3 versions be worthwhile?

This sounds useful, but should be its own separate page, probably. Someone would need to translate it though...
Translations for the functions should probably be done first before anything else is translated.

[Drake]

I would volunteer because I already use the official docs for everything but it's very likely I wouldn't end up get anything done. I might start for formatting reasons and then leave it for others to finish lol

[Helepolis]

Stuff has begun. Since we have limited suggestions I purged a few pages and edited here and there stuff on the main page.

It looks logically extremely wrecked and ugly now, but that will be taken care of as soon as we lay down the navigation panel on the left. Now, let us focus on that first so we can move away the Main_Page links under those navigation pages.

Learning from the JP wiki, Main_Page should be a welcome + update/news -alike.

What do you think?

Edit:
Currently investigating the possibility to force default look to Vector, as that one looks smooth and pleasant without the ugly non-stop borders around everything.

[Sparen]

After a talk with Blargel on IRC, most of the sidebar links have been fixed.

I may or may not take a more active role in proofreading and cleanup; it really depends on if all of the pages have links to them.

[helvetica]

I upgraded the MediaWiki install and the plugins and fixed a couple of database errors. Let me know if anything like that pops up again or if you want any additional plugins installed for stuff.

[Helepolis]

After a talk with Blargel on IRC, most of the sidebar links have been fixed.

I may or may not take a more active role in proofreading and cleanup; it really depends on if all of the pages have links to them.

That is great but those pages link too much to external sources which defeats the purpose of a wiki. All tutorials should be , if possible by means, "hard-written"  on the wiki. The wiki is a library, not a gateway. I'll bother with those pages later as for now the goal is to shape the core.

I upgraded the MediaWiki install and the plugins and fixed a couple of database errors. Let me know if anything like that pops up again or if you want any additional plugins installed for stuff.

Can we force default the Vector skin?

Edit
A small talk with Blargel on IRC regarding the "too much external sources" lead to an interesting idea: We should make the tutorials uniform and not author based. Sure, someone will be credited for his work but this has to become more of a community thing rather than individual. Note how always other wikis are expanded / re-edited and updated based on information and knowledge from people? We should do the same.

Therefore we would like to have permission from all tutorial writers to allow expansions or error-correction on the tutorials. Logically there is no need to rewrite the tutorial, but providing extra info/screenshots would be fitting.

I'll start scanning the written tutorials on motk and PM their authors for this. Same goes for my own tutorials and threads, they are public editable on the wiki.

[CK Crash]

Unless I'm mistaken, the download links for both Danmakufu versions were removed from the wiki. What was the purpose of this change?

[Necrotek]

They were moved to "Links" page. It took some time for me to find their new place.

[CK Crash]

That's really counter-intuitive, especially because "Links" seems to imply site affiliates, and Applocale is still linked on the main page. I would strongly recommend making some sort of "Getting Started" page that includes both the Applocale information and Danmakufu links, and linking it prominently on the main page. As it is currently, new users will probably overlook the navigation bar entirely, and then further mistake "Links" as not being relevant.

[Sparen]

I agree with CK Crash. I also believe that the download links for Danmakufu should be on the main page, simply for convenience and to prevent confusion.

[Helepolis]

Real life unprecedented incidents have caused me to be offline almost the entire last week. Wiki is logically no-where near finished, not in its core.

That's really counter-intuitive, especially because "Links" seems to imply site affiliates, and Applocale is still linked on the main page. I would strongly recommend making some sort of "Getting Started" page that includes both the Applocale information and Danmakufu links, and linking it prominently on the main page. As it is currently, new users will probably overlook the navigation bar entirely, and then further mistake "Links" as not being relevant.

We could make the main page as you suggested, keep the links in Links for "archiving". Top of the page probably would suffice. Question is do we want both engines there or Ph3 more noticeable and 0.12m less?

Questions questions questions.

[ExPorygon]

Real life unprecedented incidents have caused me to be offline almost the entire last week. Wiki is logically no-where near finished, not in its core.
We could make the main page as you suggested, keep the links in Links for "archiving". Top of the page probably would suffice. Question is do we want both engines there or Ph3 more noticeable and 0.12m less?

I would suggest having a download link to both versions on the main page. We have to keep in mind that the Danmakufu Wiki is not only going to be accessed by scripters necessarily. Non-scripters just looking to play scripts are likely going to find their way there looking to download EITHER version of Danmakufu. Ordinarily, I would try to promote Ph3 by not listing a download link to 0.12m on the front page, but with this fact in mind it would probably be better to have both.

[Helepolis]

That is pretty much a given that non-scripters/interested readers will be browsing it. Therefore it has to be userfriendly as well, I agree.

Not listing the link for 0.12m isn't exactly what I had in mind either. I was thinking roughly of the following lay-out, including templates probably or just static mark-up:
[attach=1]

[Helepolis]

Update:

In between my own dnh work, I managed to find some time on a sunday morning to work on the dmf wiki main page. Since nobody bother to suggest, I went ahead and applied the above picture in static form. It is a start for now, better than the ugly cluttered things we had.

I noticed people updating and adding pages. Thank you for your contribution and hard work. Though try to keep things as tidy as possible. Both in wording, writing and style. Don't just write walls of text, try to organize text using spacers, line breaks and so on.

Never forget that what seems "easy" for you, doesn't mean is easy for someone else. Never judge from your own perspective.

[gtbot]

http://i.imgur.com/EgwKwi3.png

On bigger screens, the two danmakufu boxes are moved more to the left, while everything else remains at 100%-ish.
Also, have you considered using Template: pages? You could move the danmakufu boxes to templates so the front page source isn't too cluttered.

Secondarily, I put in the translated update notes of pre23. I wasn't sure how to format it though (using the same bullets as the one in the previous hierarchy is weird), and I don't know if it should stay there. Perhaps we can remove the older update notes (or move to an archive?), and only keep the latest update's notes.

[Helepolis]

http://i.imgur.com/EgwKwi3.png

On bigger screens, the two danmakufu boxes are moved more to the left, while everything else remains at 100%-ish.
Also, have you considered using Template: pages? You could move the danmakufu boxes to templates so the front page source isn't too cluttered.

Secondarily, I put in the translated update notes of pre23. I wasn't sure how to format it though (using the same bullets as the one in the previous hierarchy is weird), and I don't know if it should stay there. Perhaps we can remove the older update notes (or move to an archive?), and only keep the latest update's notes.

Ye, the current box setup are static px instead of %. This needs to be set correctly. Templates are considered indeed, though lack of time and knowledge. If anybody wants to go ahead, feel free to.

Additionally I vote for rounded corners and JP dmf style headers/titles ( a seperate block/bar of different colour with the header in ).

And agree also on the update notes. It shouldn't become an essay. Archiving would be definitely a plus. So far we have no major news/updates. AFAIK, we don't wish to track releases of games/script, because those belong on Bulletforge. Though major tutorials and major wiki updates can be included. We'll have to see this for the near future.

What makes me most proud is the function-list overview. It is THE fastest way of finding things for ph3. It was made before for 0.12m in old days, and I always had it open for quick reference. This is also how the wiki should function: Reference and learning knowledge base. Hence we decided that the facebook/twitter style has to go.