Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ～ Double Dealing Character released!

[MewMewHeart]

Or she does this as a personal quirk and she's perfectly sane?

I think personal quirk would be better.

[BT]

Yeah, would be my preferred interpretation as well. Mischievous Seija sounds lovely.

[Tengukami]

Her ethics and morals would be backwards. Which kind of screams 'evil'.

Ah, but that's only true if you assume everyone around her is good. Are most people totally good? No, I think most people are a blend of good and evil, in varying proportions. So if she were the "opposite" of the people around her, ethically, we don't really have a strong indication where that puts her, morally speaking.

Ironically, the closer she gets to good and righteous people, the meaner she probably gets. Likewise, get her near some straight-up evil characters, and she'll veer towards good.

She's a contrarian; not a villain. But she raises a lot of interesting questions about morality in Gensokyo.

[MewMewHeart]

Damn it ZUN thanks for making a complicated character for us to try and play as.  :V

[Sagus]

Or she does this as a personal quirk and she's perfectly sane?

She is sane. For a amanojaku.

Remember, she's not human. She didn't choose to be contrarian, she simply is contrarian, like everyone else that belong to her species. It's their nature, like yamabikos echoing people.

How far this contrarian thing goes, though, it's up to debate. I'd say that she doesn't really have any personal values. That way she can just claim to support the opposite of whatever morals other people are embracing at the time.

[BT]

How does all this mesh with DDC's plot?

[Sagus]

How does all this mesh with DDC's plot?

What do you mean, the discussions on her personality, or how her personality meshes into the plot? In case it's the later...

Youkai values dictate that power is good, and that those with power control the weak. Seija, being an amanojaku, disagrees, and planned to inverse this.

Going by her dialogue, though, it seems that she wanted the weak to rule for reasons above simply being a contrarian. The way she talks, it seems she was pretty badly bullied by stronger youkai, and has a personal beef with those with power.

Yukari was probably laughing her ass off during the whole incident :V

[Tengukami]

Going by her dialogue, though, it seems that she wanted the weak to rule for reasons above simply being a contrarian. The way she talks, it seems she was pretty badly bullied by stronger youkai, and has a personal beef with those with power.

Yeah, this is what I like about her. The whole revolutionary aspect of it, showing strong leanings towards anarcho-socialism. Being contrary to the status quo is the Easy Mode of revolutions. Most rebellious youth start out this way - just doing the opposite of what's expected, or liking what others don't, for the sake of being a rebel.

What can I say? I like her. Even if I can totally see her yelling, "No! Screw you, Mom, I hate The Olive Garden! I hate this house! And I hate YOU!" before stomping off to her room, slamming the door, and playing "Master of Puppets" at full volume.

[Raikaria]

Except her profile would indicate she likes being bullied... she likes what others hate.

... You know what, the best question about Seija is: How drunk was ZUN when he made Seija?

[Critz]

I understand that SakuyaB is the go-to option for score because of her focused shot creating green items and her having nothing else going for her?  :V

Also, damn, does Sukuna's backstory seems to be mistranslated everywhere. The patch center translates kobito as dwarf, ignoring the connotations the word brings up for the western audience (beards and all), instead of translating it as a midget, which seems more neutral. On the other hand, touhou wiki leaves it untranslated, which is even worse and would only be justified if kobito were a separate eastern race (in the same vein you can't substitute oni for ogre), and not what seems to be a japanese word for little people (which is why dwarf seems viable to begin with). Made even worse by there being a reference to an actual native japanese legend in her backstory, the Issun-boushi.
And the Uchide no kozuchi, which, according to the wikipedia translated as "Small Magic Hammer" or "Miracle Mallet", which is handled correctly on the wiki as the latter, but the patch center literally mistranslates it as Uchide's Mallet, implying that Uchide is a person  :derp:. So much for the western-friendly backstory.

[Tengukami]

You know what, the best question about Seija is: How drunk was ZUN when he made Seija?

I think it's important not to take the Opposite Day Forever thing too literally. It's relevant as it pertains to her contrarianism, and her desire to rebel and overthrow. That's what she's there for. But try applying that contrarianism to everything and you fall into a logic trap. On the other hand, logic traps cover Gensokyo like potholes on a New Jersey highway.

Also, damn, does Sukuna's backstory seems to be mistranslated everywhere. The patch center translates kobito as dwarf, ignoring the connotations the word brings up for the western audience (beards and all), instead of translating it as a midget, which seems more neutral. On the other hand, touhou wiki leaves it untranslated, which is even worse and would only be justified if kobito were a separate eastern race (in the same vein you can't substitute oni for ogre), and not what seems to be a japanese word for little people (which is why dwarf seems viable to begin with). Made even worse by there being a reference to an actual native japanese legend in her backstory, the Issun-boushi.
And the Uchide no kozuchi, which, according to the wikipedia translated as "Small Magic Hammer" or "Miracle Mallet", which is handled correctly on the wiki as the latter, but the patch center literally mistranslates it as Uchide's Mallet, implying that Uchide is a person  :derp:. So much for the western-friendly backstory.

Wow, what a clusterfuck. Can't say I'm entirely surprised. But what's wrong with just using kobito? Are these patch guys from Disney or something?

[Critz]

Leaving kobito as is implies that they are somehow a specific japanese brand of midgets, which I tried to look for with no avail. The kanji seem to be spelling out "little person" and google translate outright translates it as dwarf. If that *is* the case, then that's unprofessional of them to leave the term untranslated, as that will only add to confusion and define a new english term that's not correct or used anywhere else at all, plus will imply that our knowledge of midgets is meaningless here because they're somehow different. Unless I'm mistaken of course, as I don't really know japanese  :derp:.

[Tengukami]

But as was pointed out, we don't go calling the oni "ogres". Some things can be left in the original Japanese to actually avoid confusion.

[Shizzo]

God damn this game's songs've been stuck in my head for so long.  On a sidenote, does anyone think that Yatsuhashi's going to be very overshadowed by Benben?  I think that even her design is a bit bland when compared to her older sister's. 

And regarding Seija being evil, it is clearly because of the name.  Stay tuned for touhou 15 where the ex boss, Seiya, will try stealing every hat in gensokyo.  And then in th16 Seika, the final boss, will drain the heat of every hotspring to power her new robot.

[Clarste]

She's a contrarian; not a villain. But she raises a lot of interesting questions about morality in Gensokyo.

Her name means "Right and Wrong" so yes, she's supposed to raise questions about morality.

Leaving kobito as is implies that they are somehow a specific japanese brand of midgets, which I tried to look for with no avail. The kanji seem to be spelling out "little person" and google translate outright translates it as dwarf. If that *is* the case, then that's unprofessional of them to leave the term untranslated, as that will only add to confusion and define a new term that's not correct or used anywhere else at all, plus will imply that our knowledge of midgets is meaningless here because they're somehow different. Unless I'm mistaken of course, as I don't really know japanese  :derp:.

It's left untranslated not because anyone actually likes "kobito" but because no one can agree on a proper translation. This is the rough draft version before we decide on something better. To prevent edit wars, basically.

[someursault]

Since I reverted from the XP patch and applied the new one, stage 4 Lunatic started working but I've been getting seemingly-random (not reproducible at specific junctures) crashes while running main-game Lunatic, often during the stage transitions.  The same error message occurs that used to hit during stage 4's second boss spellcard.  Is there a new XP patch that can be applied after the new ZUN patch to fix this, or am I out of luck?

[Tengukami]

This is the rough draft version before we decide on something better. To prevent edit wars, basically.

We? If you're working on this, too, can I ask - have you tested this in WINE? Because after following the instructions here, and noting that neither the console dialogue nor the log indicated any problems, it seems that the only changes made are to character dialogue ... which appear to be little rectangular boxes.

If all that's been patched so far is dialogue, alright, I guess stuff like song titles and the little box of text that appears on character select can wait, but why might I be seeing boxes instead of letters?

It doesn't seem as though anyone at Gensokyo.org is working on a simple, traditional hard patch, so I thought I'd give this a try. I really hope you guys can somehow streamline this thing a bit. My experience with patching has been a) download .exe b) click .exe and c) play translated game. I realize that with this auto-updating thing you want to do there might be some more moving parts involved, but a lot about this seems like it could stand to be trimmed. A noble aim all the same, I guess.

[KaiSinkh]

@Critz

The Patch Center was made to operate as it is to address the "Translation Issues" that you are pointing out.

It's a Wiki, feel free to contribute -- "Change stuff, so it doesn't irk you anymore or something".

Personally, I don't mind the current translation.

BTW : I'll just leave this here...

小人   【こびと】      (n) (1) child, small person, (n) (2) dwarf <-----

[Clarste]

We? If you're working on this, too, can I ask - have you tested this in WINE? Because after following the instructions here, and noting that neither the console dialogue nor the log indicated any problems, it seems that the only changes made are to character dialogue ... which appear to be little rectangular boxes.

I was talking about the touhouwiki, not the patch. I was speaking as someone who just edits the wiki sometimes, not as anyone with authority. The patch uses dwarf, which I hate. I'm not connected to it at all, sorry.

[Critz]

Accidentally, what's wrong with "midget"?

[Clarste]

Accidentally, what's wrong with "midget"?

What's good about it?

Here's the discussion if you care to add to it.

[Raikaria]

God damn this game's songs've been stuck in my head for so long.  On a sidenote, does anyone think that Yatsuhashi's going to be very overshadowed by Benben?  I think that even her design is a bit bland when compared to her older sister's. 

And regarding Seija being evil, it is clearly because of the name.  Stay tuned for touhou 15 where the ex boss, Seiya, will try stealing every hat in gensokyo.  And then in th16 Seika, the final boss, will drain the heat of every hotspring to power her new robot.

At Benben/Yatsuhasi: They're twins unless I'm mistaken, they came to life at the same time. However, I'm actually not too impressed at the design of either. Overall Benben looks more interesting, with Yatsu literally looking like a perfectly ordinary girl, if not for the strings on her skirt. [On the other Hand Benben at least looks intresting, but holds her instrument, instead of BEING in instrument like Yatu... who's design is bland bland bland.]

Great themes, fun damaku... boring designs.

And clearly the next Touhou fighting game will be all the Seiga-Seija characters plotting something together. Forget Moriya Shrine Conspiracies, it's the 'Sei' conspiracy!

@ Tengu: Well, all we have to go by on Seija's character is her profile and in-game. Anything else has to be extrapolated from that, or made up, so to be able to characterize her right, you have to think about it. And it's full of HNNGK. Still, it's clear she is NOT someone you can get along with.

[Sagus]

They aren't twins; they're different musical instruments, afte all. They just consider themselves sisters because they turned into tsukumogami at the same time. They have no relation other than that.

I do think that, of all DDC's characters, these two have the least interesting desings, but I still liked them, specially the way their instruments are depicted.

[Tengukami]

I was talking about the touhouwiki, not the patch. I was speaking as someone who just edits the wiki sometimes, not as anyone with authority. The patch uses dwarf, which I hate. I'm not connected to it at all, sorry.

Dang. I knew you were on the wiki, which made me think you'd be a good fit for this patch.

Welp, back to playing it in Japanese. Which, I might add, is no big deal so long as we have good translators on the wiki!

Also, yeah "dwarf" sucks, "midget" is worse. Good luck.

They aren't twins; they're different musical instruments, afte all. They just consider themselves sisters because they turned into tsukumogami at the same time. They have no relation other than that.

I do think that, of all DDC's characters, these two have the least interesting desings, but I still liked them, specially the way their instruments are depicted.

My daughter really loves Kagerou most of all it seems, though the twins come in a close second. I think they're alright. They look like hippies.

[Zil]

I'd better not be seeing people trash talking Reclining-san in this thread.

-

About the last boss, I like inchling. Lilipution is ok, and so is dwarf. I am against midget. The spell name can stay the same though.

[Necrotek]

We? If you're working on this, too, can I ask - have you tested this in WINE? Because after following the instructions here, and noting that neither the console dialogue nor the log indicated any problems, it seems that the only changes made are to character dialogue ... which appear to be little rectangular boxes.

After your post I decided to check how it works under Wine and... it works fine. Dialogs, spellcards, GUI, menu, music titles - all of them work fine. I wonder what was wrong in your case.

[Tengukami]

After your post I decided to check how it works under Wine and... it works fine. Dialogs, spellcards, GUI, menu, music titles - all of them work fine. I wonder what was wrong in your case.

The only thing that occurs to me is that I haven't installed my Touhous to the virtual C:\ drive. All my game directories are in their own directory, separate from the /.wine directory. Kind of sucks for those of us who partition our drives, if that's the case.

[Necrotek]

The only thing that occurs to me is that I haven't installed my Touhous to the virtual C:\ drive. All my game directories are in their own directory, separate from the /.wine directory. Kind of sucks for those of us who partition our drives, if that's the case.

The same. DDC isn't stored at C:\ but in one of my "home" directories (so it's Z:\).
The only issue I found is music room which is full of rectangles (so I guess it wasn't translated yet).

[commandercool]

Aside from Willows, I'm not too keen on the Stage 1~3 music.

Stage 4~6 and EX, on the other hand... I seriously think that is the best Stage 4 theme music ever, I think Magical Storm gives Gensokyo the Gods Loved a run for best stage theme full stop. It fits the atmosphere of the stage so well it's insane. Also love the Stage 4 boss theme.

Also already seen some lovely fanart of the Sisters. Not much of good quality of the others yet.

I feel the opposite (ooooooh, topical). Absolutely loving stage 1-3 music, especially the stage 2 stage theme. Everything after that hasn't come around for me yet.

[Piranha]

Stage 4 theme has really grown on me. Right now, it's my favorite theme of DDC, with Shinmyoumaru's theme as close second place. Extra stage theme is awesome, too.
It's like with any other touhou game: The more you listen to the themes, the more you like them. At least, that's the case for me.