Author Topic: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!  (Read 172504 times)

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #360 on: August 16, 2013, 10:11:19 AM »
It's a fake. You can reserve search the image to find the same background.

Yep, just did that, heh.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Raikaria

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #361 on: August 16, 2013, 10:16:14 AM »
Oh on the contrary, they are. Who else uses Zombie Fairies besides Rin? No one. Who fully abuses curvy as an attack rather than conjunction to the bullets besides Shou? No one. (Well maybe Nazrin, but regardless)

Uh, no. They're knives.

At first point: Fine. Merlin Primsriver. There's a reason no-one uses Sakuya in PCB. Her Curvy lasers are not even clear due to the background! SA is kinda an oddball in the whole religion arc anyway, since it has nothing to do with religion directly. [Also I've never got past Satori :V]

At second point: Compare them to her unfocused or main shot knives, or even the knives in her B-type shot. They are clearly not knives, the blade is 2~3 times longer than the knives, and the overall shape resembles Yumeko's swords. Not sure what the translation of the shot type itself is. Also, like in EoSD, and the fighting games, her 'knives' in her other shottypes are green, red and blue. These are not.


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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #362 on: August 16, 2013, 10:39:42 AM »
@Vectorfish
Your point of view about doing TA things without TA is correct.


Opinions about DDC:
*Amazing music. Personal favourites so far: Stage4, Stage6, Stage2, StageEX, Stage3, Stage5.
*Well tweaked patterns(mostly - stage 2 standing bulletlines are boring for example) and stages. Visually some of the patterns are not as appealing as they could be with some extra tweaking. Favourite pattern: Extra nospell with triangles made out of petal shaped bullets and random bulletchunks.
*I like the scoring and life/bomb system for its simplicity.
*The difference for character shot and bomb system can really be felt for most of them. Also i think MarisaB bomb behaviour is deliberate.

The screen flipping and rotation is evil and i wouldn't dare to put something like that in a game. Whats even more evil is that during one of the screenflips bullets come from behind. I'm sure the players will get used to it and if not, then cheat like i do :V

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #363 on: August 16, 2013, 10:52:04 AM »
Almost everything you see in TAS videos is technically possible to be reproduced by a mere human without any external tools. ... If you think about it,  slowing down, loading, memory reading (not writing) - all of them make the game easier but they don't change the game.

I'm sorry, but using software or other external tools does, factually, change the game. The reason why people are taking exception with "TAS isn't cheating" is because of this. If you're using something that slows the framerate, you have in fact changed the game. Just because a better player could "technically" dodge what a TAS player is dodging doesn't make it less so.

If an athlete runs a four-minute mile because he has been using anabolic steroids and swallowed half a bottle of Ripped Fuel before the run, they have cheated. The fact that other athletes can run a four-minute mile without "assistance" doesn't make this less so.

EDIT: Not saying this to call you out, specifically, by the way. I'm more interested in being sure that other folks don't go ahead and do TAS runs, believing it's not really cheating, and then experience the inevitable disappointment of trying to offer their replays in a competition here.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 11:01:00 AM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #364 on: August 16, 2013, 11:17:07 AM »
Well, the main point of what I tried to say from the very beginning is that using game flaws falls into the same cheating category as doing TAS, TAS just uses those flaws more optimally. Anything what wasn't intended to be used is cheating (though sometimes it's difficult to say if some trick was intentionally implemented or not). Still, it really depends on the person what should be considered as cheating and what is not.

Speaking of the patch, I'm a little bit disappointed that ZUN fixed alt-tab trick so soon and not some time later. I wanted to see how much people would be tempted to use it in their speedruns so the replays would surely desynchronize at her spellcards after this fix. Now such a chance is lost :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 11:23:02 AM by Vectorfish »
Would be glad to get help with Touhou Doumeiju ~ Mystical Power Plant Translation Project spellcard comments' translation.

Seppo Hovi

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #365 on: August 16, 2013, 11:26:27 AM »
visible hitbox in EoSD or "true bullet hitbox" patches
Quote
an in game feature?
Modifying the game to ease playing is forbidden.

Quote
There's no merit in finishing the game abusing this bug, at least in my opinion.
Why would someone else care of your opinion? People play these games mainly for themselves. How is bombing the attacks more of a merit, though?

Well, the main point of what I tried to say from the very beginning is that using game flaws falls into the same cheating category as doing TAS
But it does not. One of them uses outside software or modified game data to ease playing, other plays the game unmodified.
Quote
TAS just uses those flaws more optimally.
The main thing about TAS in Touhou have always been slowdown and savestates, neither of which are "flaws" within the games.
Quote
Anything what wasn't intended to be used is cheating
Call Royalflare, we're taking every WR that uses a safespot off. (UFO, PCB, IN, SA, EoSD, TD)

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #366 on: August 16, 2013, 12:00:59 PM »
But it does not. One of them uses outside software or modified game data to ease playing, other plays the game unmodified.
I feel that the initial question changes a little the more it is discussed (maybe not intentionally but still). It depends on what kind of flaws we're talking. Safespots are fine, reversing monitor or keys, using alt-tab, modifying the game - is not. I'll state it more specifically a little bit below.

Quote
The main thing about TAS in Touhou have always been slowdown and savestates, neither of which are "flaws" within the games.
I was talking TAS in general, not specifically about touhou. Usually, TAS is all about using game flaws in speedruns. Or maybe not, I didn't dig much in this field to state anything boldly. Sorry if I'm wrong about some details in TASing.

Quote
Call Royalflare, we're taking every WR that uses a safespot off. (UFO, PCB, IN, SA, EoSD, TD)
Ok, let me rephrase my opinion about cheating in touhou. Anything that ZUN would definitely patch if he finds it, it isn't too late to fix and is possible to prevent is cheating (such as alt-tabing, mАlice laser, pausing and other stuff). I'm pretty much sure that a lot of safespots can be considered as intended to some extent. I don't know much safespots for spellcards but I think those which I know were mostly left intentionally. Maybe some of those which I don't know are really "impudent". If you don't mind, name some safespots. Not because I'm trying to pick a fight, I'm just interested to take a look :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 12:04:05 PM by Vectorfish »
Would be glad to get help with Touhou Doumeiju ~ Mystical Power Plant Translation Project spellcard comments' translation.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #367 on: August 16, 2013, 12:45:15 PM »
Sorry if I'm wrong about some details in TASing.

That seems to be where this whole misunderstanding is coming from. "TAS" is not exploiting a game flaw; it's using external tools to alter the game in some way that gives the player an advantage. I mean the TA part of TAS means "tool assisted".

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #368 on: August 16, 2013, 12:53:09 PM »
It's just that most of TASes I saw were using game flaws very intensively and TA were used just because most of those flaws are difficult to reproduce using common human skills in a long run. So I started to assume that true TAS is just interesting speedrun using game bugs. Though if I follow just its raw definition - Tool Assisted Speedrun - it's really just a speedrun using helpful tools (which still don't break game mechanis), no matter if they use game flaws or not.
Would be glad to get help with Touhou Doumeiju ~ Mystical Power Plant Translation Project spellcard comments' translation.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #369 on: August 16, 2013, 01:05:46 PM »
Thanks for the patch, ZUN, Shinyoumaru's knife SC is a completely different thing when you can damage her. A few amusing things I found out about it are how ReimuA can actually capture the card in a good enough time, as long as you get her gohei to hit Shinmyou's head (just go to the top of the screen, focus there, then move back down while focused before she starts shooting); and how SakuyaA's focus attack completely changes the pattern of the blue knives, making it a lot slower and full of gaps (which kind of sucks if you're used to the normal pattern).
Or maybe I'm just being too late to notice this, as usual

Mordon

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #370 on: August 16, 2013, 02:12:24 PM »
Quote from: Vee
Modifying the game to ease playing is forbidden.
Quote
Why would someone else care of your opinion? People play these games mainly for themselves. How is bombing the attacks more of a merit, though?

Who even is the one who decides what is forbidden and what isn't? lol, if I play "for myself" I can do anything I want, and if people played only for themselves they wouldn't care about others using cheats. I certainly get mixed feelings when people brag about an achievement having abused such a bug. It is just as game breaking as using an outside alteration, period, the only difference is that one seems to be accepted by the majority because it already exists in game, which doesn't make much sense but whatever. I know that it won't change the fact that bugs will still be accepted in competitions and other things won't, I'm just stating my opinion on why I think bugs and patches and outside exploits are no different in essence. But there's no point in talking about anything ever if everyone is just going to say "I don't care about your opinion". Opinions almost never convince other people, so saying that you don't care is unnecessary and even rude sometimes.

About the merit thing, I mean merely 1ccing a game legitly, which is most people's main objective. The games were designed with lots of bombing in mind, not perfecting everything, or else they wouldn't give you tons of lives and bombs. If things were so simple to everyone as to "bomb everything" there wouldn't be tons of people struggling to 1cc. Sometimes even bombing is not an easy thing to do, as you become afraid to spend resources unnecessarily and end up dying with bombs, or you panic bomb too much and don't have bombs when you really need them.
 A super-power bug obviously makes the game so much easier that you don't need to dodge and bomb as much, and everybody knows it's unintended and broken. So yes, I believe there's more merit in bombing everything legitly than abusing an overpowered bug, as bombs are limited (even in MoF). Unfortunately it's accepted by the community as something legit, and even if it was forbidden it would be impossible to avoid it completely unless Marisa B was banned as a whole.

Meh, I cut about 2/3 of my original post as it was too extensive and I don't feel like this discussion is healthy to get into too many useless details.



Regarding safespots specifically, they are legit to me, because that's just the way the patterns were made and how the bullets move; some safespots may even have been intended, and lots of them aren't that useful or easy to use anyway. It would only be an exploit if you could somehow stay in a specific spot and touch bullets without dying . It's different from like skipping bosses in SA, that's definitely a bug and totally cheating.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #371 on: August 16, 2013, 02:23:47 PM »
It is just as game breaking as using an outside alteration, period, the only difference is that one seems to be accepted by the majority because it already exists in game, which doesn't make much sense but whatever. I know that it won't change the fact that bugs will still be accepted in competitions and other things won't, I'm just stating my opinion on why I think bugs and patches and outside exploits are no different in essence. But there's no point in talking about anything ever if everyone is just going to say "I don't care about your opinion". Opinions almost never convince other people, so saying that you don't care is unnecessary and even rude sometimes.

OK, I see this come up a lot, so let's clear the air here.

An "opinion" is an expression of how you feel about a quality. Like, "In my opinion strawberries are delicious" is an opinion; "In my opinion strawberries are blue" is not. You can't say, "In my opinion the world is flat" when it demonstrably isn't, but, "in my opinion, the world shouldn't be round" is fine.

So when you say "in my opinion, using external tools is no different than exploiting game bugs", people are quite right to point out the difference between the two (e.g. the former is taking advantage of things the game creator left in and hasn't or won't fix, while the latter is the player deliberately altering the mechanics of the game) and it's not really a matter of opinion.

Apart from that, if you're playing for yourself, sure, by all means use external tools and cheat engines to your heart's content. Just don't be surprised if you try to submit that replay to a contest here and are told it doesn't count.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Mordon

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #372 on: August 16, 2013, 02:57:03 PM »
I know what an opinion is, what  I don't know is why people think it's okay to cheat via a bug and not external exploits. Yes they are different, but the result is the same, a decrease in difficulty. It's like saying that using the konami code cheats is fine, but gameshark ones is not. "The external exploits alter the game and the bugs do not" doesn't really answer this question. Thinking that bugs aren't cheats because they don't alter the game doesn't make any sense either.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 03:02:13 PM by Mordon »

Serela

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #373 on: August 16, 2013, 02:59:17 PM »
Sakuya A's delayed shots are not knives. They're SWORDS. I just noticed that, having not played the demo. [I got B and A mixed up a second ago :V]
Uh, no. They're knives.
The shot type screen and all the dialogue for SakuyaA say her "bewitched" weapon is a sword. (although that may depend on who translated it, I don't know how close the japanese for knife and sword is)

also yeah they're way longer then the rest of what she's shooting
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 03:01:30 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #374 on: August 16, 2013, 03:38:45 PM »
I know what an opinion is, what  I don't know is why people think it's okay to cheat via a bug and not external exploits. Yes they are different, but the result is the same, a decrease in difficulty. It's like saying that using the konami code cheats is fine, but gameshark ones is not. "The external exploits alter the game and the bugs do not" doesn't really answer this question. Thinking that bugs aren't cheats because they don't alter the game doesn't make any sense either.

I also go with the "they don't alter the game", and usually take them as legit, depending on their level. Granted, I've been part of glitch exploring communities for a few years before getting into Touhou, so I'm quite fond to them. But since everything has a limit, if I think they break the game too much (like extended immortality, skipping a huge part of the game, etc, or in our case, MarisaB in serious runs), I don't use them. But silly things like safespots (that aren't actually a glitch), skipping a midboss, unflipping a spellcards, getting extra damage, etc is okay.

Though outside of tournaments of similar things that sometimes restrict them, it's subjective whether they're considered cheating or not, so whoever consider them as cheating don't use them on their own, while other people do at their will. So there's not really a point to argue about this since it won't get anywhere.

nintendonut888

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #375 on: August 16, 2013, 03:46:34 PM »
Well, regardless of people's opinions on the matter, I think ZUN removing the alt+enter bug settled his opinion on the matter nicely. :D
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #376 on: August 16, 2013, 03:49:55 PM »
Well, regardless of people's opinions on the matter, I think ZUN removing the alt+enter bug settled his opinion on the matter nicely. :D

I'm okay with that since he also fixed the Benben crash thing. :V

commandercool

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #377 on: August 16, 2013, 03:51:07 PM »
Drunk Marisa remains firmly in the game though, as far as we know. Presumably cementing ZUN's opinion on her drinking habit. :D
I made a PADHerder. It's probably out of date though.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #378 on: August 16, 2013, 03:53:16 PM »
Drunk Marisa remains firmly in the game though, as far as we know. Presumably cementing ZUN's opinion on her drinking habit. :D

I hope it at least doesn't desynch replays occasionally anymore...  anyways, this patch is great and I'm so happy he took the time to fix so many issues! Best patch ever :DDDD
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #379 on: August 16, 2013, 04:26:23 PM »
Well, regardless of people's opinions on the matter, I think ZUN removing the alt+enter bug settled his opinion on the matter nicely. :D
I was imagining someone tweeting him about that bug, or him seeing it mentioned on 2ch - he turns to the other monitor, alters a couple lines of code, and smiles as he hits Ctrl + S.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #380 on: August 17, 2013, 12:51:42 AM »
I was imagining someone tweeting him about that bug, or him seeing it mentioned on 2ch - he turns to the other monitor, alters a couple lines of code, and smiles as he hits Ctrl + S.
It's probably never as easy as that, but it would be fun to imagine :V


teets mi hao 2 2hu teets mi teets mi hao 2 2hu

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #381 on: August 17, 2013, 12:53:43 AM »
I wonder if his fix was just to re-flip the control upon alt-tab shenanigans. If that's the case then there might be other exploits and there'd have to be a fix for each separate case.

cuc

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #382 on: August 17, 2013, 01:29:56 AM »
I was imagining someone tweeting him about that bug, or him seeing it mentioned on 2ch - he turns to the other monitor, alters a couple lines of code, and smiles as he hits Ctrl + S.
According to twitter, he disappeared into alcohol for two days after Comiket. Then he came back online and saw the bug reports tweeted at him.
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #383 on: August 17, 2013, 03:08:29 AM »
According to twitter, he disappeared into alcohol for two days after Comiket. Then he came back online and saw the bug reports tweeted at him.

That's our ZUN XD

MewMewHeart

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #384 on: August 17, 2013, 03:31:01 AM »
According to twitter, he disappeared into alcohol for two days after Comiket. Then he came back online and saw the bug reports tweeted at him.
Yup, he got drunk because he was home. Good old ZUN.  :D
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #385 on: August 17, 2013, 04:04:01 AM »
You know how Seija's song sounds the same backwards?
ZUN: I'm feeling extra lazy, lets just take this, and repeat it, but going backwards. Now to tweak some parts to make it sound less lazy. Done.

Currently a normal player

Yatakarasu

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #386 on: August 17, 2013, 04:13:32 AM »
You know how Seija's song sounds the same backwards?
ZUN: I'm feeling extra lazy, lets just take this, and repeat it, but going backwards. Now to tweak some parts to make it sound less lazy. Done.
I wouldn't say it's exactly the same. It is very similar sounding. Reminds me of Koishi's song, but Koishi's does it better.

Here it is in case anyone was wondering.

Normal Clears: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Hard Clears: PoFV, SA, TD, DDC
Extra Clears: PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Current touhou goal: Improve! ...1cc more Hard Modes

Sagus

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #387 on: August 17, 2013, 04:45:50 AM »
ZUN: I'm feeling extra lazy, lets just take this, and repeat it, but going backwards. Now to tweak some parts to make it sound less lazy. Done.
I... have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say with this.
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #388 on: August 17, 2013, 04:55:14 AM »
Well, he did say he made it in the image of a lazy youkai...

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character released!
« Reply #389 on: August 17, 2013, 06:07:53 AM »
The shot type screen and all the dialogue for SakuyaA say her "bewitched" weapon is a sword. (although that may depend on who translated it, I don't know how close the japanese for knife and sword is)

also yeah they're way longer then the rest of what she's shooting

Her weapons are described as 剣 (tsurugi) which pretty clearly means "sword". Specifically 妖剣 (youken), where it's the same "you" as in "youkai". What she normally throws is described as ナイフ (knife). So yeah, they're swords.