Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!

[Starxsword]

Please do not take spell card descriptions as literal while ignoring other sources. Please refer to this text for comparison, Iku's profile and link, http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Iku_Nagae:

She can read the mood of a place, and adapt to it right away. She doesn't try to break the mood unless there's a very urgent reason.
Flexibility is stronger than stiffness. When necessary, she vanishes completely and parries any attacks.

Reimu isn't the only one with a description like that.

Also refer to the other Last Words, if you take them literally, Eirin's spell card is impossible to avoid.

[Fonzi]

Discrepancies exist, my friend, but no other canon description is provided to make us doubt the effect of the spell is exactly as the one provided in its description. They are all Spell Cards, of course Eirin's spell has to be dodgeable for it to be even allowed to be played in a danmaku battle. Likewise, Reimu's FN has to be capturable, if not by spell break, then by time-out. It's the fundemental rule of the Spell Card system. But without such restrictions, who is to say that Reimu cannot stay invincible forever, or that Eirin's attack should give its target any chance?

[TrueShadow]

Like what Sagus said, that could be it. Reimu does have a real orb, we see that in the 3 fairies' manga. I wonder where she keeps it or does she just store it in the shrine? If Kasen can get it so easily, it sucks to be Reimu.

 I recall a scene in one of the manga (either WaHH or Three fairies) where she took out the orb from her sleeves. So that might be where she keeps it while fighting. While not fighting, she probably keeps it in the shrine. And IIRC, in that chapter where Kasen's arm is destroyed, the Three fairies was rummaging through the shrine to find its goshintai beforehand.

[Sagus]

I recall a scene in one of the manga (either WaHH or Three fairies) where she took out the orb from her sleeves. So that might be where she keeps it while fighting. While not fighting, she probably keeps it in the shrine. And IIRC, in that chapter where Kasen's arm is destroyed, the Three fairies was rummaging through the shrine to find its goshintai beforehand.

It was in the Three Faeries manga; she took it out because she suspected the orb was the reason Yukari overheard her coversation with Marisa regarding the radio tower, IIRC. It seems the orb retained its "cell phone" ability that Yukari installed in it during SA.

Yeah, that's what they were doing. Reimu, Marisa and Kasen were talking about the Hakurei god and what his go-shintai was, Reimu said she didn't know, and the faeries offered to search for it.

[Tengukami]

Discrepancies exist, my friend, but no other canon description is provided to make us doubt the effect of the spell is exactly as the one provided in its description. They are all Spell Cards, of course Eirin's spell has to be dodgeable for it to be even allowed to be played in a danmaku battle. Likewise, Reimu's FN has to be capturable, if not by spell break, then by time-out. It's the fundemental rule of the Spell Card system. But without such restrictions, who is to say that Reimu cannot stay invincible forever, or that Eirin's attack should give its target any chance?

Hm, this seems to be leading into speculation territory by stretching some pretty common language of a spellcard description. Reimu can demonstrably get tired, as Starxsword pointed out happens in SSiB. And I think when you put speculative interpretations next to simple, demonstrable evidence, yeah, it's pretty clear what the fact of the matter is.

Having said that, you do point out something I always found charming about spellcard descriptions: they seem to reflect more than their actual power. Like the language itself in the description is used to make them sound more formidable than they demonstrably are. Why this is, I dunno. Could be a number of different reasons. But the descriptions do tend towards this wonderful hyperbole that I find really charming.

[Sagus]

Having said that, you do point out something I always found charming about spellcard descriptions: they seem to reflect more than their actual power. Like the language itself in the description is used to make them sound more formidable than they demonstrably are. Why this is, I dunno. Could be a number of different reasons. But the descriptions do tend towards this wonderful hyperbole that I find really charming.

Everybody in Gensokyo is a show off :V

[ToyoRai]

Eh, I personally think that Fantasy Nature's true terror doesn't simply lie on that Reimu would use it without any break, but how badly she can destroy you. I mean, in SWR, once she actiavtes it, there is little you can do to not die.

[TrueShadow]

If Letty ever went all out , what Stage Boss do you think she will be?

(Does this count as powerlevel discussion? If it does just ignore it plz)

[Sagus]

Being a stage boss doesn't mean much regarding the character's actual power, just how well they play danmaku. So...

Letty would be like Stage EX because she's the best at dodging because just imagine how many snowball fights Cirno tries to start with her every winter :V

[Fonzi]

Hm, this seems to be leading into speculation territory by stretching some pretty common language of a spellcard description. Reimu can demonstrably get tired, as Starxsword pointed out happens in SSiB. And I think when you put speculative interpretations next to simple, demonstrable evidence, yeah, it's pretty clear what the fact of the matter is.

Having said that, you do point out something I always found charming about spellcard descriptions: they seem to reflect more than their actual power. Like the language itself in the description is used to make them sound more formidable than they demonstrably are. Why this is, I dunno. Could be a number of different reasons. But the descriptions do tend towards this wonderful hyperbole that I find really charming.

There really isn't antything speculative about what I said. Reimu gets tired in SSiB, of course she does. She's just a human. But did she actually use Fanasy Nature in her battle? She didn't. Why? Because she was having a Spell Card duel and using FN unrestricted  and without time limit would be a volation of her own rules. She could use her game version of it, which lasts 35 seconds, though, but instead decided to have a god-summoning contest with Yorihime, because ZUN never meant to portray the Lunarians as defeatable by anyone from Earth. Fantasy Nature is a cheat-like ability that should not exist, but ZUN gets away with it, by having his world use Spell Card rules, which should give everyone equal chances. Of course, I have no other evidence to present that FN can be kept up for as long as Reimu wants, save the description in IN and GoM. But like I said, in my previous post, when Reimu floats away from reality, there are no factors that affect her. Can an unreal person be hurt, tired, hungry, bored, afraid or can they age? Reimu simply isn't there for any of those factors to have an impact on her. It's your word agaisnt ZUN's. The one who needs to prove that FN is running on limited resources is you.

Eh, I personally think that Fantasy Nature's true terror doesn't simply lie on that Reimu would use it without any break, but how badly she can destroy you. I mean, in SWR, once she actiavtes it, there is little you can do to not die.

Actually, I've seen people dodge it (or at least survive it) and even counter it with Youmu. However, I doubt that ZUN intended there to be a flaw that would allow such a thing.

[Tengukami]

The one who needs to prove that FN is running on limited resources is you.

Not really trying to "prove" anything but rather answer the question from two pages and four days ago, which (surprise!) is still being debated, in this case based on a spellcard description. As has been pointed out, these descriptions tend towards the "whoah better watch out!" hyperbolic types of language. And "if the spellcard rules were removed, she could use it forever" is a bit of a moot point, as the spellcard rules aren't lifted.

Simply put, since we're all in agreement that Reimu can and does physically tire, and that we know the Spellcard Rules are going to be observed regardless, I'd say it's safe to say the capabilities of FN are always going to be limited.

Of course there's always hypotheticals and theoreticals we can throw into any relatively simple question asked in this thread. Just not sure how helpful that is for answering a question as opposed to developing a really interesting "what if there were no spellcard rules?" theory development.

[Fonzi]

Simply put, since we're all in agreement that Reimu can and does physically tire, and that we know the Spellcard Rules are going to be observed regardless, I'd say it's safe to say the capabilities of FN are always going to be limited.

Once again, slowly, because apparently, we are just talking past one another: We are NOT talking about Reimu and her stamina here. We are talking about Fnatasy Nature, which is an ability, that makes Reimu (an ordinary human girl who gets tired, needs food, can be injured, ages, etc, etc.) into a godlike being, untouchable by anything the concept of reality can throw at her, including the potential lack of energy required her to keep this up. It basically allows her to give reality the middle finger. Marisa says this wasn't a card before, just as something Reimu would simply do before it got its name. ZUN says that if this wasn't just a Spell Card for play, with a time limit, Reimu would literally be unbeatable. And he said that in pretty plain and simple-to undrstand way too. Based on this I think it's safe to assume Reimu can maintain FN indefinitely.

Of course there's always hypotheticals and theoreticals we can throw into any relatively simple question asked in this thread. Just not sure how helpful that is for answering a question as opposed to developing a really interesting "what if there were no spellcard rules?" theory development.

The purpose this serves is to sieve wrong speculative assumptions from straight and factual observations of canon material, which has led us to a point where our answers to the same question are the exact opposites of each other.

[Tengukami]

Once again, slowly, because apparently, we are just talking past one another: We are NOT talking about Reimu and her stamina here.

There's absolutely no need to do the "OK let me repeat that slowly" thing with me. I addressed how I see the limitations of FN, e.g. that the spellcard rules aren't going anywhere and don't even get suspended. So it's a moot point to say "yeah but IF there weren't spellcard rules applied to FN then etc". Reimu's stamina is relevant w.r.t. her ability to maintain a particular power over a length of time, but even if FN were some kind of exception to the limits of her power, its supposed full use won't be seen, because of the spellcard rules.

The purpose this serves is to sieve wrong speculative assumptions from straight and factual observations of canon material, which has led us to a point where our answers to the same question are the exact opposites of each other.

Not sure if that's what led us to this point. Either way, I'm out, lest I get some more of that "let me spell it out for you really slowly" response again.

[Fonzi]

Reimu obviously knew how to use that ability even before the Spell Card rules, since it was Marisa that introduced it into play, so she must've seen her use it without a declaration and other attributes that are common for Spell Cards.

[Sagus]

The answer to the question is "We don't know; from what we have we can reach wildly differing conclusions, and we will most likely never know for certain, because there is no foreseeable scenario in which Reimu would use FN outside of a spellcard duel".

[Fonzi]

Next time on Gensokyo Mythbusters: Can Fantasy Nature truly last for as long as Reimu wants? Can Flandre truly destroy everything? Can Cirno's manipulation of cold allow her to alter it to the extent of negating it? Can Yorihime summon her own superior, Lord Tsukuyomi to do her bidding? Can a Hourai Immortal regenerate after having her body cut up into several parts and each of the body parts are put into small solid containers? Can ZUN chug down a bottle of non-alcoholic beer? Is Reimu's life truly vital to the existence of the Great Boundary? ...and more.
Watch to find out.

[Drake]

I think a massive assumption being made here is that during Fantasy Nature, Reimu floating away from "everything" means that she disappears from reality and there are no bounds on anything that she does because those bounds are within reality, or something along those lines. This is a mistake; all that's being said is that ありとあらゆるもの から from "anything and everything" (expression), 宙に in midair 浮き she floats 無敵となる and becomes invincible. All that seems to happen, and is seen to happen, is that she puts herself where nothing can touch her. To say that she actually ceases to exist in some sense is unwarranted.
If it's convincing to mention, it uses もの/物, which is the word for "thing" in a tangible sense, or an object, rather than こと/事, which means "thing" in a figurative or intangible sense.

[Fonzi]

I think a massive assumption being made here is that during Fantasy Nature, Reimu floating away from "everything" means that she disappears from reality and there are no bounds on anything that she does because those bounds are within reality, or something along those lines. This is a mistake; all that's being said is that ありとあらゆるもの から from "anything and everything" (expression), 宙に in midair 浮き she floats 無敵となる and becomes invincible. All that seems to happen, and is seen to happen, is that she puts herself where nothing can touch her. To say that she actually ceases to exist in some sense is unwarranted.
If it's convincing to mention, it uses もの/物, which is the word for "thing" in a tangible sense, or an object, rather than こと/事, which means "thing" in a figurative or intangible sense.

But the fact still remains that she is invincible and that if there was no time limit set to it, she'd be unbeatable by any means.

[Drake]

I never said I was against your argument, I was just pointing out the mistake. I can pretty easily see both sides here. Reimu is definitely shown to get tired when using stronger abilities, so I could see that activating Fantasy Nature and using it would put her under stress. However, Marisa's description that she just closes her eyes and everything happens seemingly automatically is also somewhat convincing that it's effortless; at least more convincing than ZUN's spell card quote, which as mentioned, is often flavour-tinged and prone to exaggeration.

I don't think it would be prudent to assume that she does or doesn't get tired. Using either of the current arguments to pick either way is too much to me, because I don't find either side convincing enough on their own, never mind when considering they should outweigh or explain the other.

Also Eirin's Last Word doesn't say it's undodgeable either, it says "once she spots you, escaping is no longer possible", which is a play on 監視から逃れる, meaning to "escape someone's attention". So, "once you've caught her attention, you can't get rid of her". Very Eirin.

[Fonzi]

Certainty in Touhou is something that's rare to have. The reason why I continue to stubbornly argue with other users is to be absolutely sure whether one party or the other is right, even at the cost of making myself look like a fool. I don't care for other people's sympathy. Just the truth.

[Drake]

I'm sure many people here want the truth. I know I want truth. That's why, considering the lack of thoroughly convincing arguments in either direction, I choose to suspend judgment, rather than concluding one side is true. On the claim of "Reimu can continue Fantasy Nature forever / as long as she wants", I disagree. On the claim of "Reimu can only use Fantasy Nature for a certain amount of time", I also disagree.
The ratio of fact to content in Touhou is definitely not large and we make constant appeals to Occam's Razor and probability to tell what's true, but I don't think that's the case here.

[ToyoRai]

>Eirin's Last Word
Yeah, I agree that when it says "It is impossible to avoid this", I take it as there is no way to just bail out of it.. Marisa's description on it says it completely restricts your movement. Like a spider web it is, once you are caught on it, escape is impossible.

[Sagus]

Where did the "Utsuho got her power by eating the corpse of the Yatagarasu" idea come from? IIRC the term "eat" or something is sometimes used to describe how Utsuho absorbed the Yatagarasu's power, but what about the corpse part? Was it said somewhere in the games? It's not on her profile...

[Starxsword]

Reimu obviously knew how to use that ability even before the Spell Card rules, since it was Marisa that introduced it into play, so she must've seen her use it without a declaration and other attributes that are common for Spell Cards.

The point is we have other references we can use. We have her spell card description, which I have mentioned should not be taken literally. Eirin isn't the only spell card with such an outrageous claims. Look at Youmu's Last Word, it implies her attack range is infinity, which is ridiculous. Attack range the size of the garden of Hakugyoukurou is dubious, but still sort of believable, but having infinite width, that is an exaggeration. Surely, you don't think Youmu can slice the universe in half right?

Certainty in Touhou is something that's rare to have. The reason why I continue to stubbornly argue with other users is to be absolutely sure whether one party or the other is right, even at the cost of making myself look like a fool. I don't care for other people's sympathy. Just the truth.

The point here is big attacks like Fantasy Heaven take energy, this is shown in both Scarlet Weather Rhapsody and Hopeless Masquerade. In SWR, it is 5 cards to use, and in HM, it is a Last Word, requiring max popularity to use. Now, that is possibly a gameplay/story segregation, however, the idea of going to an unconscious state will cause the user to use no energy is a mistake. The reasoning is that this isn't the only spell that causes her to do that. Reimu's last spell against Suika also causes her to go into an unconscious state. Being unconscious in no way implies you for some unspeakable reason do not spend energy to do your attacks.

Where did the "Utsuho got her power by eating the corpse of the Yatagarasu" idea come from? IIRC the term "eat" or something is sometimes used to describe how Utsuho absorbed the Yatagarasu's power, but what about the corpse part? Was it said somewhere in the games? It's not on her profile...

Not sure, let me look at SoPM.
It isn't in SoPM, it is mentioned in the Subterranean Animism dialogue. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Subterranean_Animism/Story/Reimu_and_Yukari%27s_Scenario#Stage_6.

Reimu: The ultimate power?
If a geyser happens every time, does that mean it's the power of a teakettle?
 
Yukari: (Reimu, you should be able to see it. Which god did that bird eat up?)

EDIT: found it

[Sagus]

Not sure, let me look at SoPM.
It isn't in SoPM, it is mentioned in the Subterranean Animism dialogue. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Subterranean_Animism/Story/Reimu_and_Yukari%27s_Scenario#Stage_6.
EDIT: found it

The "eat" part, yes, but what about the "corpse" part? It isn't mentioned in the dialogues, as far as I can tell.

[Starxsword]

Oh, I don't think the Yatagarasu is even dead, so I didn't think there was even a corpse.

[Sagus]

Oh, I don't think the Yatagarasu is even dead, so I didn't think there was even a corpse.

Yeah, I don't think so either, but more than once I've seen people saying that Okuu ate the Yatagarasu's corpse, and I'm wondering where the hell that came from.

[Clarste]

Probably because it's harder for them to imagine her eating something alive? Although based on SoPM it seems to be quite a bit more spiritual than that, so "eat" is misleading in the first place. Or hypnotism.

[Imosa]

Who is saying Utsuho ate a corpse anyway? Also you can try searching my old Utsuho thread (linked to relevant post), to see if it ever came up.

[Fonzi]

The point is we have other references we can use. We have her spell card description, which I have mentioned should not be taken literally. Eirin isn't the only spell card with such an outrageous claims. Look at Youmu's Last Word, it implies her attack range is infinity, which is ridiculous. Attack range the size of the garden of Hakugyoukurou is dubious, but still sort of believable, but having infinite width, that is an exaggeration. Surely, you don't think Youmu can slice the universe in half right?

As dubious or doubtful it sounds, have you seen the full potential of the character's spells without Spell Card Rule resstrictions? ZUN states a fact, which is or isn't hard to swallow. You say he's just exaggerating? Prove it. Oh, wait, you can't. Because like it was already said here, we will not see instances where the rules of Spell Cards will be ignored. In order to understand this, we must first understand what Spell Cards are - they are weakened, non-lethal versions of magical attacks, which are designed to be beautiful and avoidable, hence their descriptions sounding like an exaggeration of what we actually see in the games.

The point here is big attacks like Fantasy Heaven take energy, this is shown in both Scarlet Weather Rhapsody and Hopeless Masquerade. In SWR, it is 5 cards to use, and in HM, it is a Last Word, requiring max popularity to use. Now, that is possibly a gameplay/story segregation, however, the idea of going to an unconscious state will cause the user to use no energy is a mistake. The reasoning is that this isn't the only spell that causes her to do that. Reimu's last spell against Suika also causes her to go into an unconscious state. Being unconscious in no way implies you for some unspeakable reason do not spend energy to do your attacks.

That's mixing gameplay mechanics into the debate, which is only going to serve confusion. The games have to be balanced somehow and each character has to have roughly equal chances of winning. Not sure about you, but I can hardly imagine Cirno knocking out Suika in hand-to hand-combat. Another question that arises is: where exactly does it say that Reimu becoms "unconscious" during Fantasy Nature?  Floating away from "anything and everything" (expression or not) doesn't change the meaning of "floating away from reality" very much. The consumption of energy we see in the games when using big attacks is nothing more than the application of Spell Card rules in action. Powerful attacks should not be declared right off the bat. The battle should last some while before such spells can be allowed into play. Do you think the term "Last Word" is a coincidence? These attacks are designed to be used as last resort. In IN, they are even used in a post-battle manner, where it doesn't matter whether you captue it or not. You don't lose a life. You have already won the battle and the Last Word is just a scoring opportunity.