Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!

[Sagus]

Hm, I think I get what you mean. Like, if Kogasa doesn't manage to surprise literally anyone it could actually really hurt her? How would something like that work for a youkai *of* something, like Yuuka being a Flower Youkai?

Yuuka is not a flower youkai, she's just a youkai that likes flowers and can control them on a basic level

But at any rate, there actually aren't really youkai of things like that other than fairies, who are embodiments of nature; presumably, when the aspect of nature that gave rise to them is destroyed, so are them.

At any rate, a spiritual attack doesn't really have to be linked to the youkai's origin to affect them. It just have to be something meaningful, related to tradition or spirituality.

And yes, not scaring humans does hurt Kogasa; it's how she "feeds", after all. If she doesn't scare anyone, she'll lose her purpose and (presumably) eventually die.

Ahh, now this actually makes a lot more sense to me. So would something like, say, post-traumatic stress disorder be seriously dangerous to a youkai?
And actually, with all this in mind, would youkai be more vunerable to curses than humans?

I don't think youkai can suffer from things like that... their psychology is probably very different from a human's. But if they do, maybe it'd be dangerous? It's not really touched upon anywhere in canon.

And yeah, it stands to reason that they're more vulnerable to curses. Curses are attacks with a meaning behind them, after all.

[seburoh]

You can probably use Forza's service as mentioned above for the IOSYS albums(or you can order through their shop, which will ship overseas if you email them), but the Cytokine album is probably too old to be found in stores that sell doujin music, so you'll probably have to wait until it pops up on Yahoo Auctions Japan. Lovelight(which is by Alstroemeria Records) is definitely too old to find in most places, but Bad Apple has been rereleased on a couple of their other albums, if that's why you want it.

I just like to packrat music really, I'll find a song here or there on like, youtube or the touhou/gensokyo radio stations, and try to grab a whole album which includes that song, so I can attempt to expand what I listen to from there. Preferably while supporting the creators in some way.

Thanks for the help guys!

[Clarste]

I don't think youkai can suffer from things like that... their psychology is probably very different from a human's. But if they do, maybe it'd be dangerous? It's not really touched upon anywhere in canon.

I think we know enough about youkai psychology to make inferences. It's certainly different from a human's though. As you just mentioned, youkai need a "purpose" in order to live. They need to know why they were born and what they should be doing. Even if it's something as simple as "attack humans", that's a purpose. Once they lose that purpose they die. This is referred to several times in canon, for example Kyouko losing her purpose once science explained echoes, Eiki warning the Prismrivers about having no purpose now that their creator is dead, Shou having no purpose once real tigers were imported, etc. Byakuren's Youkai Buddhism is expressly designed to preach to save purposeless youkai, either through giving them an alternate purpose or simply accepting their own death.

Anyway, that's different from a human's, but also fairly understandable. Humans don't die without a purpose, but they can certainly become depressed or something. Finding "meaning in life" is obviously a thing people try to do, as well as youkai. We're just less vulnerable to it. We don't die from depression.

[aListers]

Do we know who the character on the disc of the original release of Doll in Pseudo Paradise is? The one with the detached sleeves. She doesn't look like Reimu to me - her hat is too different. Even then, do we have any information about her apart form any hidden clues in the story  - which I can't actually find any of.

[Drake]

She isn't a character. She can't even be certainly said to be the killer in DiPP.
Oh her. Likely similar regardless, she's just some drawing.

[FLASH]

We don't die from depression.

i'm sure many peoples who commited suicide whould beg to differ... if they could.

i still see what you mean of course, it's just that i don't think youkai whould get depressed over that, they just do what they must because they know they need to do it to exist, end of story. Generally they don't seem to really ask themselves much about their own condition compared to humans (a few exceptions like Yukari asides).

on a side note, is it explained anywhere what whould happen exactly to a Youkai who "dies"?
presumably if he loose his purpose he whould vanish completely, but in that case it's quite different to how a human dies (where he becomes a ghost, cross the Sanzu river, see the Yama, then anything goes really! he could be sent to heaven, hell, hakugyokurou, reincarnated, sent back as a Yuurei, amongst other things on a case by case basis.)

but to a youkai who dies "the regular way", what happens? i don't believe loosing purpose is the only way for them to die as many dialogues in the games suggest otherwise.

do they get sort of reincarneted as long as what they represent haven't been explained by logic? (similar to how i imagine a Kami like Kanako cannot truly die as long as they are humans worshipping her?)

[Sagus]

Eiki says to Cirno that if she dies for real (which may become a possibility in the future since she seems to be becoming something more than a normal fairy), she will be judged (from Cirno's main story in PoFV: "If you die, then we will most definitely judge you. At that time, whether you will go to heaven or hell... Well, we don't know that yet"). And I think we can trust the word of one of the Yamas on the subject. So youkai that die most likely simply have their soul judged and are then sent to Heaven, Hell or the Netherworld.

Reincarnation isn't discussed in great detail anywhere in canon. We don't even know if humans can only reincarnate as humans, or if they can come back as animals or something else, IIRC. If the latter is the case, then perhaps a youkai's soul could be reincarnated as something other than a youkai. But we don't really have info on that.

Also, personally, I don't believe that youkai that die by losing their purpose utterly vanishes (as in, their soul is also destroyed); I think that when tthat happens they just die and have their soul sent to the after life as normal. But I can't really recall if there's anything in canon that goes for or against this. The only absolute death that can happen to a youkai that I remember being mentioned in canon is when a youkai is possessed by a vengeful spirit; although she never heard about it happening, Kanako speculates about it in SoPM, saying that, since a youkai's core is it's mind, being possessed like that would completely erase the original youkai and give rise to an entirely new one, whose mind would be the mind of the spirit that possessed them.

Regarding you comment about Kanako, a gods' "death" is indeed losing all their followers. Kanako would go back to being a simple divine spirit/group of divine spirits, Suwako would disappear entirely, and Sanae would become a simple human again.

[Clarste]

Traditionally, Buddhist reincarnation involves ascending or descending in the various tiers of life, based on your karma. Humans are below gods and above youkai. So in that sense proper youkai might get reincarnated into a human while a crappy human might become a youkai. or a bug.

I don't think there's any reason to believe that Touhou is different in this regard. The only reincarnation we've seen is Akyuu, who is clearly a special case.

[Fuyuumi]

Since we don't have a lot of information about spellcards themselves, I was wondering if the first part of a spellcards name is something more than declaration of what kind of magic / ability / danmaku will be used? I think they work as a signature, keeping someone else from stealing the technique, or at least trying...

Or maybe there is some fan theory about spellcards?

[Drake]

Nope. It is visibly meant to be used as a sort of categorization for the spell card, but even that doesn't have any actual basis in anything. There aren't any actual categories or types of spells, it's just more words that might convey some extra meaning that can't be fit into the spell's actual name. It's all just danmaku in some form anyway, the only thing keeping other people from copying it is the user invoking their abilities or techniques etc to make the spell, that others cannot do. Marisa all throughout GoM makes it clear that she can't copy or even reference many of the spells she writes about.

[Prime32]

On top of that, there are some spell cards that don't have a first part at all.

[FLASH]

Sagus and Clarste:

hmmmm, interesting answers, thanks!

i haven't read Pmiss or Sopm and haven't finished all the games yet, i guess that's really showing here :x


but how the hell do Koishi even work then??

she has no mind, so if the comment by Knanko is to be trusted, you'd think she shouldn't be able to exist at all as a Youkai...   that explains why people can't notice or remember her i guess (as she is essentially a Void youkai in this case).
but i don't understand how she can even exist at all in the first place...

[Sagus]

She has a mind. It's just that she closed it in a way that doesn't allow her to access her conscious self. So her subconcious is what drives her around, which's why she's so (lterally) carefree and whimsical. To quote myself from a few pages back (it's a response to a claim that "subconscious" might have meant "unconscious" in the sense of her being something like a coma patient, not the psychological term):

Nah, the slew of Freud references that she and her spellcards have clearly indicates that "subconscious" in this case is being used in the place of "unconscious" (for reasons previously discussed; as cuc said, the original japanese only ever used unconscious), which is used in the Freudian sense of the word. Wikipedia sayz, "Freud was of the opinion that the unconscious mind has a will and purpose of its own that cannot be known to the conscious mind (hence the reason why it is called the "unconscious") and is a repository for socially unacceptable ideas, wishes or desires, traumatic memories, and painful emotions put out of mind by the mechanism of psychological repression"; if we go by this definition, it makes sense that Koishi can still speak. She's not really like a walking coma patient, she's someone whose mind is pure id (that Freud classified as unconscious by definition), caring only about fullfilling whatever desire she has at the moment and not really thinking about anything else.

[Biakmon]

Does this belief/purpose thing also apply to underground inhabitants (Oni and stuff or even the Yamas)?
It seems to me that they don't particularly care about being in the surface and just mostly come out for festive stuff but apart from that I can't say...

[Sagus]

As far as we know it applies to everything that could be called "supernatural". Maybe stuff from the afterlife isn't tied to that, and maybe there are ways for youkai to escape it (Gensokyo itself seems to make youkai less dependant on human belief to define their existence, as debated in SoPM), but it's not really discussed, AFAIK.

[Clarste]

Does this belief/purpose thing also apply to underground inhabitants (Oni and stuff or even the Yamas)?
It seems to me that they don't particularly care about being in the surface and just mostly come out for festive stuff but apart from that I can't say...

The "purpose" doesn't have to be deep or complicated. An oni's purpose could very well be "be stronger than people and drink a lot". It's not the same thing as a job. Parsee's purpose is to be jealous of everything, for example.

[Drake]

I'm sure we're more or less aware of this, but the important bit is that "purpose" isn't something that a youkai takes upon itself, but that the purpose itself is what defines the youkai. Clarste picked two good examples as they illustrate this well; oni, simply put, are legendary figures that are incredibly strong and rambunctious and have some other key characteristics. The being strong and rambunctious part is why an oni is what it is rather than anything else, and if an oni stopped being what an oni is, it would... not be an oni. Likewise, Parsee's purpose is to be the jealous bridge princess, she is defined in part by her adhering to that legend. If she didn't, she wouldn't be that legend anymore.

This is just extrapolated/translated in the Touhou universe into what we see as a youkai going "ok I'm going to do something else", and thereby changing their purpose. I feel inclined to say that if a youkai could define their existence as performing a certain job, then sure that job could be their purpose.

Gensokyo's role in this is just the fact that youkai can "exist" in some capacity without being bound by human imagination conjuring them. Youkai don't actually "exist" in the outside world,  their existence and purpose is completely determined by human thought. Gensokyo is just a lens where you can look at these youkai without them being simply concepts, in that they exist as an actual entity.

[FLASH]

agreed with everything being said here.

though if a Youkai could somehow choose its purpose, then it whould be free to do what it wants to do and be what it wants to be at any time; so in other words, it whouldn't be all that different from a human anymore...

maybe that's why in gensokyo Youkai are becoming more human-like than in past legends (especially Tengu and Kappa), as they are getting more and more independent from human there.

this reminds me of the conversation between Yukari and Kasen in Wahh about the Zashiki-warashi,

Kasen said "so you mean all youkai's true purpose is...?" then Yukari interrupted her, but it seems to me she was thinking "all youkai just want to be human"...
isn't being free to choose what you want to be the thing that Youkai jealous us for anyway?

[Paz legalces]

Hey guys, just a question that I has been pondering for quite a while
Shou, Ichirin, Murasa; in which order did Hijiri meet first?
From the Touhou Wiki, it seems to imply that she meets Murasa first, then Shou last (not very obvious clearly state though), whereas most fanworks seems to show Shou being the first one to meet Hijiri, then Ichrin and finally Murasa.
I have seen 2 different music videos depict Shou being the first one, and a doujin stating the same... whereas canonically, I can't find the proper order of who Hijiri met first (the wiki just constantly use "at a certain point of time" or something like that). What is clear though is that both the Wiki and fanworks seem to depict Ichrin and Unzan being met in the middle of Shou and Murasa
*This question would also makes clear whether Hijiri got the ship first before going onto her salvation pilgrimage... or getting the ship as the ultimate symbol toward near the end of her journey*
http://www.k-a-i-r-o.com/seiren/main.jpg

<Tengukami> Please don't hotlink, use imgur or something.

[Drake]

Byakuren needed Shou to get youkai to trust her, so she came first, along with Nazrin. It's assumed that Ichirin joined some time after, and then Murasa, because it was only a few decades from Byakuren saving Murasa to Byakuren's sealing.

Also, since you seem to misunderstand this: when Byakuren saved Murasa, she created the ship for Murasa. Murasa didn't follow Byakuren afterwards, Byakuren didn't keep the ship either. The ship only became relevant with Murasa's unsealing.

[Rei Scarlette]

I figure this would be the better place to ask, rather than creating a topic in HME for just one question.

Are the cards gained after a battle in SWR/Soku entirely random? Or does fighting with certain characters or stages increase the odds of getting different cards? I'm still missing at least one spell for most characters, some of them up to three, and I just can't seem to get them. I checked both touhouwiki.net and hisouten.koumakan.jp, but neither of them seems to mention anything about how cards are received.

There's only one I really care about right now (World Creation Press, it's annoying to be missing a card for my current main character) but it would be nice to have them all eventually.

[Sungho]

If you use a card frequently in battle, you will get a increased chance of getting the card you used.
Using certain cards will increase odds of getting the card you want.
Something like, using the main 236 skill card will get you alt. 236 skill cards, and using a skill card will get you the spellcard that is the strengthened version of that skill card.
If you have 天地プレス(Heaven and Earth Press), you can use it frequently to get 要石「天地開闢プレス」(Keystone "World Creation Press").
If you don't have Heaven and Earth Press, try using the main 236 skill card frequently.

http://th123.glasscore.net/?%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9A%E3%83%AB%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E5%85%A5%E6%89%8B%E6%9D%A1%E4%BB%B6

[Rei Scarlette]

I see, that is very helpful to know. Heaven and Earth Press was not a part of my main deck, so that must be why I had such bad luck finding World Creation Press.
I swapped it in for a few matches, and before long, I was able to finally find World Creation Press.


Thank you! Now I can start collecting the rest of the missing cards as well.

[monhan]

Actually Drake, I think the order went like Murasa/Ichirin > Shou.
Though I think Ichirin might be the first one.

The reason is that, at first Byakuren appeared out of nowhere as a youthful monk, implying that she might not have a temple(or it's currently abandoned), and only by then that she started gaining her fame among the people. So people heard of her reputations and then she was sent to subdue Murasa with other monks, that are likely not from her temple.
Ichirin is quite a wild card, since she can be before, between, or after Murasa and Shou. But I think it's weird to get her after Shou. Since she's a youkai-turned human, it would make sense for Byakuren to get her first, as the crew that has the easiest time communicating with the humans.
After a while, Byakuren either created a temple for the Youkai, or used the old temple of Bishamonten. Then she appointed Shou to take care of the temple, along with the help from Nazrin to monitor her. The temple became flocked with Youkai, and some of them might've been seen by the humans, thus leads to their suspicions of her.

Spoiler:

Yeah, I love "Journey to the West", so I always picture famous monk with quirky followers to be the traveling kind.

Though I kinda agree with you too. It makes sense for her to leave her temple for a journey when she had Shou to look after it.
But they didn't mention how long it takes for her to finally be trusted by  Bishamonten. So it could be within those few decades after Murasa's case. Which is why I said she might be last.
Well, they didn't really give any specific time, so it's quite difficult to clarify it.

And yeah, now that I think about it. It was never mentioned that Murasa and Ichirin followed Byakuren after their respective meeting with her. Or is there?

[Paz legalces]

Also, since you seem to misunderstand this: when Byakuren saved Murasa, she created the ship for Murasa. Murasa didn't follow Byakuren afterwards, Byakuren didn't keep the ship either. The ship only became relevant with Murasa's unsealing.

Yes, I did know that Byakuren herself create the ship, and I did not mean to imply otherwise (guess the way I phrased thing was a bit messy)... but Murasa did not follow Byakuren after the ship incident... that's new to me since I always have assumed that Murasa tagged along with Hijiri, so her and the ship become part of the traveling group altogether 

[Fuyuumi]

I was looking for some music to add to my plug.dj playlist and I foung this.

The thing is that from 0:15 there is a guitar playing looped part from Sonic game... anyone knows maybe where that part is from?


EDIT: I found it... it's from this

[Blue]

I was looking for some music to add to my plug.dj playlist and I foung this.

The thing is that from 0:15 there is a guitar playing looped part from Sonic game... anyone knows maybe where that part is from?


EDIT: I found it... it's from this

The album that End of Daylight was on came out around six months before the game was released, so I don't think that it was taken from there. They probably just used the same loop; it seems like the most likely answer.

It was also in a trailer for Sonic 4: Episode 2, so...

[Jeremie]

I was wondering how exactly the fight with Mokou went in canon unless there's no exact information about it. Did she fight only one team? Did each teams somehow fight her between different time spans or did she actually fight everyone at the same time like many fan videos and fanart likes to depict? I assume the latter may be the least likely but after browsing some of the side material and her page, I don't seem to find much on this subject.  :3

[TrueShadow]

It's never clear who fights who in the shooting games.

[Espadas]

I was wondering about the "nature" of magic in Gensokyo, whether it can be considered a "spiritual attack" or merely something connected with the natural world....

Example: Yuyuko is fighting against Reimu, Patchouli and Marisa. A REAL FIGHT, not with danmaku, but with real, lethal attacks.
Reimu launch a barrage of Shinto amulets
Patchouli cast a spell that is cleary elemental, let say Agni Radiance (i guess something like a big blast of fire)
Marisa cast her infamous Master Spark

Against an actual ghost like Yuyuko, i guess the Shinto amulets would be effective, being items imbued with "spiritual" powers, and as such capable of influencing a spirit.
Patchouli attack would be useless, since ghosts simply pass through physical attacks.

But what about Marisa? Since her spell is a purely MAGICAL blast, would it affect Yuyuko or not?
Does MAGIC have a "spiritual" component?