Power of the ladies: How do they work?

[Starxsword]

The way I view the effects of her ability is kind of like Fist of the North Star. "You are already dead." You don't realize it, but your body is on the ground and you are just a ghost.

[Fonzi]

I know Hourai Elixir isn't exactly an innate ability, but one thing has been bugging me that I read once on touhouwiki. At one time, it stated that Eirin Yagokoro was also one of the people who had drunk the elixir and became immortal. In fact, the article on the Hourai Elixir still claims this as a fact even today. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hourai_Elixir
Eirin's profile once explicitly stated that she drank it and the "evidence" provided was the ending of the Netherworld Team. However, I had encountered no such evidence that supported this claim in the said ending. In fact, Eirin was there in the Netherworld, which contradicts the nature of those who have drunk the elixir, as they are unable to even visit that place. That part on the wiki was later removed, as it was most likely a misinterpretation on the editor's part. I'm also aware that the translations of the games may not be 100& accurate, but since I know nothing about Japanese or its moonrunes, I can't really judge the translation quality.
I already realized that Eirin is probably not a Hourai Immortal, but not before I made her as such in my fic, trusting the info in the wiki.

[Drake]

The claim that immortals couldn't enter the Netherworld was a mistranslation. Eirin having drank the Hourai Elixir is true, however. The ending's translation in the english patch was also faulty, and so this confuses people. Eirin basically says "I don't want to die, and besides, I took the medicine I made with the help of Kaguya's power", then Yuyuko goes "argh no then I can't kill you", and at the end there's a blurb about Yuyuko not being able to kill people who took the Hourai Elixir. It's pretty much unambiguous.

[Fonzi]

Oh, good. So I didn't break canon. At least in the part concerning Eirin's immortality. What made me doubt the most is that nowhere in Eirin's profile is it mentioned that she drank the elixir, except the short article about the elixir itself. Then SoPM's interview with ZUN revealed that she is a goddess, which was pretty much already hinted before its release. And if she is a goddess, why would she need to drink the elixir? I wonder how many other translation slips are there in the canon. Someone should really update the translation patches. Heck, even some bug fixing patches wouldn't hurt.

[Starxsword]

The claim that immortals couldn't enter the Netherworld was a mistranslation.

I'm curious, what does it say?

In Immaterial and Missing Power, Remilia says she has to die a while, before entering the Netherworld.

and at the end there's a blurb about Yuyuko not being able to kill people who took the Hourai Elixir. It's pretty much unambiguous.

Yeah, this part is also mentioned in Extra mode when Yuyuko tries this on Mokou.

[Drake]

成仏を忘れた亡霊は新たな生を生まない。
死ねない人間は色鮮やかな冥界を知らない。
Ghosts who have forgotten Nirvana cannot be reborn.
Humans that can't die cannot know the vivid Netherworld.

It's a quote from a famous buddhist monk/poet. Basically people took "humans that can't die can't know the netherworld" and one of two things happened:
- Instead it was said that they can't "enter" the Netherworld (figuratively), and then that was misconstrued (a second time) as a literal inability to enter
- They decided to be really dumb and think that you can't enter because then that would mean you'd "know" the Netherworld

It's incredibly stupid and infuriating because people have very commonly used this to say that Eirin isn't immortal and other such things, similar to how Fonzi was mistaken. If you google it you'll get pages of people saying the very same and it's just all over the place. I mean it's even gone so far that people counter-argue by saying that Eirin's a Lunarian, not a human, and therefore even if she took the Elixir there isn't any problem, which is all sorts of stupid in its own right, but it really illustrates the huge significance of this error.

[Fonzi]

It's incredibly stupid and infuriating because people have very commonly used this to say that Eirin isn't immortal and other such things, similar to how Fonzi was mistaken.

Then blame the misleading info on the wki and mistranslations, not the people who were misled. From those two lines translated, it really does seem that immortals cannot enter and thus know the Netherworld. If it simply means the fact that they cannot get there by natural means - by dying, then it's quite obvious due to the nature of immortal beings. It's like saying "Humans who cannot die, cannot die" duh. This metaphor does sound misleading whether you admit it or not.

[ToyoRai]

So those who are more knowledge of meaning of certain things, what does Kanko's ability to create sky actually do? I mean, how does one create something like sky? Her being a deity of wind and rain makes me think it allows her to control weather in some ways but I wouldn't really think it means that directly.

[Sagus]

From the wiki:

"Kanako's ability specifically refers to the element of Qian (乾), one of the eight trigrams in Taoist philosophy. Qian is associated with creation, leadership, overtness, reliability, and acting first rather than reacting to others. Suwako Moriya's ability to create earth, or Kun (坤), refers to the opposite element".

So it's not like she can literally "create sky". It's basically a metaphor for how proactive she is.

[ToyoRai]

I guess I have problem with metaphorical usage. Like, Suwako can create earth, and it shows, having multiple earth-based moves (yeah yeah, I know it has more meaning than that, but let's first think it in its basic form).

[Drake]

Then blame the misleading info on the wki and mistranslations, not the people who were misled. From those two lines translated, it really does seem that immortals cannot enter and thus know the Netherworld. If it simply means the fact that they cannot get there by natural means - by dying, then it's quite obvious due to the nature of immortal beings. It's like saying "Humans who cannot die, cannot die" duh. This metaphor does sound misleading whether you admit it or not.

I'm not blaming you, at least not directly. It is due to misleading interpretations and the influence of other people's mistaken claims, and it's more that I want to stress that I know where you're coming from and it's an understandable mistake even if it's a mistake that I would normally consider dumb. At least you had the good sense to actually ask about it rather than just continue on.
But it isn't even really a metaphor, at least in english. At least, it isn't literal. It's similar as if you said "If you haven't been face-to-face with an angry bear you wouldn't know fear", or "you haven't experienced Italy until you've eaten this food" or something like that. In japanese using 冥界を知らない isn't even "can't know" as much as "don't know".

You know what, I'm going to change it to that given it might make a difference. We already use the term in the manner above like "if you aren't X /haven't done Y you don't know Z".

"Kanako's ability specifically refers to the element of Qian (乾), one of the eight trigrams in Taoist philosophy. Qian is associated with creation, leadership, overtness, reliability, and acting first rather than reacting to others. Suwako Moriya's ability to create earth, or Kun (坤), refers to the opposite element".

So it's not like she can literally "create sky". It's basically a metaphor for how proactive she is.

It's both, sort of. But Qian isn't limited nor specific to "sky" or "heaven", and that's the reason why there had to be clarifications of Qian during the Ability fiasco. It's a very odd and nuanced term that means several different things in relation to Kanako, so it would be wrong to translate it as anything. I'm unsettled even leaving it as "Ability: Creating sky" in Kanako's infobox, despite there being a more thorough description right there. It's an ability that means more in its pronouncement than it does mean anything as an actual ability, in a similar fashion to Yuugi.

[Clarste]

Abilities are self-declared. "Creating Qian" is just how Kanako likes to think of herself, just like how Futo likes to think of herself as using Feng Shui when it's mostly just Shinto magic rebranded. Much like her snake theme, it's quite likely that Kanako chose it specifically to contrast with Suwako. In terms of what she actually does, SoPM has quite an in depth description of it but it boils down to her just borrowing Suwako's power for now while she transitions into a Goddess of Technology.

[Sagus]

I guess I have problem with metaphorical usage. Like, Suwako can create earth, and it shows, having multiple earth-based moves (yeah yeah, I know it has more meaning than that, but let's first think it in its basic form).

SoPM says that the changes in the terrain that she makes are actually done by the curse gods under her command. Doesn't necessarily mean that she can't manipulate the earth by herself, but it seems to imply most of it isn't her direct doing.

It's both, sort of. But Qian isn't limited nor specific to "sky" or "heaven", and that's the reason why there had to be clarifications of Qian during the Ability fiasco. It's a very odd and nuanced term that means several different things in relation to Kanako, so it would be wrong to translate it as anything. I'm unsettled even leaving it as "Ability: Creating sky" in Kanako's infobox, despite there being a more thorough description right there. It's an ability that means more in its pronouncement than it does mean anything as an actual ability, in a similar fashion to Yuugi.

Does the same applies to Suwako's ability? In terms of how Kun isn't limited/specific to "earth", I mean.

[Drake]

All of the Ba Gua mean more than just the element, if that's what you're asking.

[ToyoRai]

This is why "Show, don't tell" term exists. And I think both Kanako and Yuugi need to learn this because not even their descriptionsand bios leave us clue how they actually work. Some other characters would need this, like Remilia and Komachi, but they are lesser case as their bios at least give us some idea how they work in practise (I have actually seen rahter good idea how Komachi's would work on other people).

[Drake]

Do you need to know if the characters even have an ability, let alone what it does or how it works? Not really. If they do demonstrate what they have the ability to do, then that is just what they've shown that they're able to do. It isn't "show, don't tell", it's "if they don't show (or have it described or any other evidence of it existing), don't pay it much attention". Having an ability stated isn't evidence of that ability in the first place, so I don't see why there's the need to complain over it not properly describing an actual ability. It would be the same if the ability text were absent, only there would be missing flavour and whatnot.

[TrueShadow]

Regarding Yuugi's abilities I think that she can use something like magic, but not the kind of magic magicians use. Like, there is a separate magical force other than 'magic' that novody knows about, and that's what Yuugi controls.

[Drake]

Anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirits (怪力乱神, kai-ryoku-ran-shin) is a metaphor for unexplainable phenomena that originates from the Analects of Confucius, where one of his disciples said "the Master never talked of anomalies, strength, disorder, or spirits." (子不語怪力亂神) Furthermore, Yuugi's title is "the so-called unexplainable phenomenon".

More accurately, Confucius did not talk about unnatural things (怪異, strangeness), mysterious powers (勇力, courage), things contrary to reason (悖乱, devious rebellion), and strange things related to god (鬼神, fierce god). In other words, strangeness (怪異), courage (勇力), devious rebellion (悖乱), and fierce god (鬼神) are why 怪力乱神 is referred to as "anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirits." It is appropriately unclear what exactly this ability allows Yuugi to do, since the ability itself is a metaphor for things that cannot be explained.

Her very name, Yuugi (勇儀), might have come from the courage (勇力) that is represented as "strength" in "anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirits."
Her title is 話られる怪力乱神, or "the so-called" unexplainable phenomenon/anomaliesstrengthdisetc. This does little in explaining the ability, but it should be clear that her ability is not meant to be an actual ability, merely an additional link to the Confucius thread present throughout her character profile.
Important: She does not actually manipulate or cause unexplained/supernatural phenomena. This was a huge misconception that stemmed from the translation, and was essentially the main reason why the Ability subsection explaining the phrase was created. 怪力乱神を持つ itself just means "to have", "hold" or "possess". It's currently translated as "wield". No other character ability uses this wording, and is why I am going to go object just objected to the translation in the SoPM article.

So that would be a no. She obviously has some magical aptitude, but we already know oni aren't exactly huge in the magic department.

[TrueShadow]

Well it was based off Marisa's comment in Grimoire of Marisa about the "Knock Out in Three Steps" card.

[Clarste]

So that would be a no. She obviously has some magical aptitude, but we already know oni aren't exactly huge in the magic department.

Suika also claims that Yuugi is particularly bad at magic, at least relative to Suika. I think as far as the series is concerned, Yuugi is just really really strong, physically.

[ToyoRai]

Just a short question, is Patchouli?s "One Week Magic" thing base on anything (I know that the elemental magic comes from Wu Xing elemental table with addition of Moon and Sun) or is it just there?

[Clarste]

The names of the days of the week in Japanese are based on the 5 elements plus sun and moon. Moonday, Fireday, Waterday, Woodday, Metalday, Earthday, Sunday.

Incidentally, those same elements show up in European languages too, including English. Sunday and Monday are obvious, but the rest of the English days of the week are named after Norse gods who are equivalent to Roman gods who are aligned with the planets which are named after the elements in Japanese. Well, you could also think of the astrological theme as primary, since sun and moon are thrown in.

[Starxsword]

So that would be a no. She obviously has some magical aptitude, but we already know oni aren't exactly huge in the magic department.

I'm not too sure about Oni in general, but comparatively speaking, Suika's magical abilities are far beyond a human's. That is assuming her Immaterial and Missing Power profile is correct.

If Suika's claim is correct, Yuugi has weaker magical abilities than Suika, but I would guess it is still far beyond human magic.

@Patchouli's magic: Yeah, it is based on the element for the days of the week. As Clarste has mentioned, each day has an element.

[ToyoRai]

Sagus's comment on the Miscellaneous Questions thread brought up a question in mind: Would Watatsuki (and I mean Yorihime) have the power to summon either Kanako or Suwako (or at least their powers)? Or are those two with other gods bit out of her reach?

[Sagus]

You mean Yorihime? She probably can, but I don't see her doing so. I mean, they are gods that live on Earth. No way she's staining the Moon with such riff-raff.

[Clarste]

Probably not Suwako at least. The story makes it pretty clear that Native Gods and Heavenly Gods work under entirely different rules. They're not really the same "species". Kanako is fair game I guess.

[Hatateru]

If I remember correctly I think Aya's DS commentary on Yuugi's spellcards seem to indicate that she indeed wields "a mysterious power"?

[Drake]

Yeah, Marisa says the same in GoM. I think it's  pretty much established that the oni's powers aren't a "normal" sort of ability or magic in the same sense as the rest of the cast, but are rather something that really comes "out of nowhere". Aya calls it bogus and others call in incomprehensible or mysterious. It's also partially to poke at Yuugi's Confucius references.

[Clarste]

I suppose it's worth noting that when Suika is quoted in SoPM as talking about her "magical power" relative to Yuugi's, she uses a different word than the series usually uses to describe generic "magic" (as opposed to "magician magic"). Usually they use the word "Youjutsu", seen in Reimu and Youmu's profiles at various points, and in PMiSS's description of Mokou, among other places, which uses the same "you" as in "youkai". On the other hand, Suika describes herself and Yuugi as using "Jujutsu", which uses the kanji for curse.

[Drake]

I wasn't aware and find that important, so very worth noting.