Power of the ladies: How do they work?

[Forte Blackadder]

This topic is a question of all Touhou fans at some point in their life. Well, if we look at things in general... I dunno.
An ability has requirements to process.
Having an ability doesn't mean they can use it unlimited at whim <- this is a theory

I've been thinking about Remilia. Controling fate is pretty cool. But there are many many things aftermath. I don't think fate works like how we saw in the movies or games. You can't just cut it off and laugh. I remember that phrase "A butterfly can cause a tornado" or something like that. Fate is the same. You change a bit of this, and you fucked up the whole thing which is completely unrelated years later.

Remilia probably knows about this. Why don't we think of the other way? That she actually knew everything. How she would lose to Reimu, how her plan would fail,... but she couldn't do anything because taking the other choice will lead into something more disastrous?

In my opinion, fate is like a spider web, there is no one way for you to live. You make choices, and according to your choices that your life will go on different way. You had the choice not to "try" Touhou at that specific moment, and had you chose it you wouldn't know about Touhou at all.  From tiny things like which foot you'd step first to big decisions like marrying Yuuka or Yukari, they all affects your life.

Perhaps Remilia can easily kill Reimu back then, but for what? She may face the other Guardians, Yukari, the Gods, the Dragon... it's next to impossible to walk away unscratched from those, or she even needed to sacrifice her loved ones in order to do it. So it doesn't worth it.

[Starxsword]

I think the idea of Remilia having absolute control over fate falls flat then you consider that she could have easily been successful during EoSD. She had a plan to fulfill and would probably have no problem using her powers to make it work.

In Embodiment of the Scarlet Devil, she mentions that she wanted to go for a walk in the day time or something like that. So, she created the scarlet mist. That is probably a lie, since she could go for a walk in the day time anyway. If Akyuu's theory is correct, her goal is actually to have Sakuya become more open with people. That could be what Remilia used her fate manipulation for, if she has it.

Remilia doesn't like to be boredom. If Meiling is going to scare off all the intruders, what is she supposed to do? Meiling is just there to screen off weaker people. Take Scarlet Weather Rhapsody as an example. Remilia went with the flow and pretended to be a monster when Aya visited.

That said, I am not arguing that Remilia can in fact manipulate fate, but I am arguing that Remilia might be able to manipulate fate. Since there is no evidence pointing to her being able to manipulate fate, just things seemingly go her way.

Perhaps Remilia can easily kill Reimu back then, but for what? She may face the other Guardians, Yukari, the Gods, the Dragon... it's next to impossible to walk away unscratched from those, or she even needed to sacrifice her loved ones in order to do it. So it doesn't worth it.

She won't kill Reimu, they are doing spell card duels, so they are both not fighting to kill. Killing her will mess up the barrier, which kinda defeats the point of her travelling to Gensokyo from the outside world. Reimu just has to keep trying until she finally beats Remilia.

[Drake]

Forte: Having an ability stated doesn't mean they can use it unlimited at whim, period. Don't need to theorize for that.

Thing about Remilia in EoSD is that she didn't want to kill Reimu at all. It ended up a spell card duel like everything else has since... the Vampire incident! Which treads into your speculation territory. Remilia was a new face to Gensokyo, and rather than play nice with everyone she amassed a small rebel group of youkai. This did incite retaliation by the higher-ups, almost definitely including Yukari. It ended in Remilia's loss, and the formation of a contract that restricted Remilia from doing certain things. There was a disagreement by other youkai that it was stepping on the rights of youkai, and so a new contract was formed along with the eventual creation of the spell card rules; the draft of which is also often speculated to have been slipped to Reimu by Yukari.

If you want to theorize, think about the possibility that Yukari orchestrated the creation of her own proposed rules to create a healthy human-youkai balance in Gensokyo by first purposefully leashing Remilia knowing that the youkai would want a better solution, giving her a free opportunity. I'm personally of that stance.

If you want to really go the mile, consider the possibility that under your theory, Remilia could foresee that her uprise and successive defeat would result in the chance for Yukari to enact said plan. I personally wouldn't agree, but if you want free ammo I'm giving it to you.

[Forte Blackadder]

No, the killing Reimu part was just a wild talk. I'm well aware of the danmaku. My point is that Remilia can prevent that loss, but due to the domino effect the aftermath would be worse for her. So she simply didn't alter anything or use her ability to its best.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I know it's not Canon, but...

Doesn't Mitori have a pretty useful ability? "Power to prohibit everything and anything"

In that case, she could simply prohibit the enemy of breathing and kill him/her instantly.  :V

[Ikari]

But doesn't prohibit means to make something illegal, or any similar synonyms to imply you want to stop people from doing it...?

Marisa could totally breath anyway because she doesn't obey laws; Laws obey her.

[Starxsword]

Doesn't Mitori have a pretty useful ability? "Power to prohibit everything and anything"

In that case, she could simply prohibit the enemy of breathing and kill him/her instantly.  :V

If that's her ability, then I would think that she could do what is implied. But of course, only the author would know what her ability should do.


Some character abilities can be overwritten or ignored by other characters. Maybe because of rock/paper/scissors? For example, the 3 fairies have the ability of detection, sound nullification, and light bending. Sunny Milk can make you invisible, which is why Reimu and Marisa cannot see her whenever her ability is active. However, there are 2 known characters that ignore this ability. Reisen, possibly because she sees in wave lengths instead of light, and therefore logically would not need to see the characters in question.

And Komachi, but no reason is given why she is able to ignore Sunny Milk's ability. I think she is also unaffected by Medicine's poison, but that could be because she is a ghost?

[Forte Blackadder]

Well "Prohibit" is still a vague word. Like forbidden or block, if you could do it anyway if you have the guts to. Like Ikari says,  it's somesort of law/permission. She can prohibit people to cross a certain road, they'd obey that if it's possible to go other way or they respect her enough. Some bastard can just ignore it and go on. Prohibitions are only effective if the consequences are feared by the audience.
Let's say in a final exam:
You're prohibited to cheat.

Normally, you obey that because if you cheat AND get caught, you'll be expelled, or failed. But if you're probihited but there is no punishment at all, you would cheat openly without a single care.

I think.

[Drake]

Just to point out, it isn't "author". Mitori, unlike basically every other fancharacter, was a collaboration effort of hundreds (well, several tens at least) of fans over a series of 2ch threads and beyond.

Anyways, her ability is explained a bit in her "profiles". More specifically it's to forbid anything close to her, which is mainly used to prevent anything from approaching her, and anything from entering her mind. She can forbid Satori from reading her mind as well. It's said she can "forbid" a path of escape, so it does imply that she can forbid more abstract things as well, unless this really just means a NO ENTRY sign appears to block the path.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Well "Prohibit" is still a vague word. Like forbidden or block, if you could do it anyway if you have the guts to. Like Ikari says,  it's somesort of law/permission. She can prohibit people to cross a certain road, they'd obey that if it's possible to go other way or they respect her enough. Some bastard can just ignore it and go on. Prohibitions are only effective if the consequences are feared by the audience.

.............if that's her ability, then I have it as well. Because I can technically prohibit anyone from doing anything. But if they'll obey me or not, then that's another story. Anyone can give prohibitions, but the prohibition will only take effect if the person in question has enough authority for that. The "Conditions of Felicity" from Pragmatics explains this very well (I studied the subject during my literature course). Here is a short article about it.

What I'm trying to mean is that's certainly not the way it works, because that's no different from the natural ability that anyone else possess as well. However, If that's really the case, then I'd say this ability is just as useful as Kogasa's.

[TrueShadow]

I've been wondering what would it be like of Kogasa's power is absolute. She could potentially drop a humongous meteor out of nowhere because, hey, SURPRISE!!

[ShiroiMahotsukai]

I think I asked that once at some point somewhere, and apparently there's something that says it isn't. I still might write it into a story if I get the chance though.

[Hatateru]

I remembered asking this before, and got a pretty good answer from Drake to boot. Nevertheless, what are your opinions about Yuyuko's powers? I mean, the power to invoke death is simply killing something with a concept of death in their beings, right? As long as her target can die, she can kill it right?

[Sagus]

Yeah, pretty much. She couldn't use her ability on Hourai Immortal, for instance (she tried it on Mokou in one of IN's endings).

Makes me wonder if she can use it on gods, though. They don't really have souls like humans and youkai, right? Yuyuko's ability is said to have grown from manipulating dead spirits, so maybe it involves forcing the opponent's soul to leave it's body. If that really is the case, I guess souless beings would be immune.

[Gpop]

The problem with Koishi's ability to manipulate one's subconscious is the fact that she only act on the subconscious herself. So as powerful her ability is, the fact that she can't freely control herself does save a lot of people of being under her own mercy.

In the end, she's just more of a knee-jerk reaction character. If you don't do anything to her, she won't do anything back. She has no reason to. She has no motive. She never has one. If she ever does anything is generally out of a reaction and her body and subconscious reacts to it. That is also why she generally has no emotion, because she has no reason to feel any emotion. Again, she can not act, only react

In terms of being noticed, yes it is said that one must be in her sight. Thing is that as soon as she leaves, she will be completely forgotten. The only way to be remembered is if they know of her from before, and there are only a few ways to do so. (Either from Satori, the newpaper articles from Hopeless Masquerade, or from Akyuu's writings on her). So if you do, you will know that she exists, but you'll more than likely forget every meeting you have with her like as if you never met her before, but you know she exists.

[Malyszeq]

As for Yuyuko's power it's actually much more intimidating when we hear about it, than after we realize that in Gensokyo there are many beings that can be considered immune to her power. Her ability is taht she invokes death in a person by inviting the soul residing inside the body to leave it and go to the Netherworld. Kaguya and Mokou have their concepts of death absolutely erased from existence due to effects of Hourai Elixir so they can't die. Remilia and Flandre are already somewhat "dead" (undead), although we do not know if this counts as having a soul or not. Gods probably would also be unable to die, as they're you know, gods, it can't be possibly so easy. I am not quite sure about youkai - if we can count them as having souls or is soul a concept native only to humans in Gensokyo. And what about celestial beings like Tenshi, shinigami like Komachi, jiang shi as Yoshika, hermits  and of course Youmu, a half-ghost? I rather like to think that Yuyuko's power works only on humans, and not on inhuman beings - that would kinda justify why Yuyuko killed herself instead of using her power to eliminate any threats against fellow humans that came from the youkai of Gensokyo.

[Imosa]

As for Yuyuko's power it's actually much more intimidating when we hear about it, than after we realize that in Gensokyo there are many beings that can be considered immune to her power. Her ability is taht she invokes death in a person by inviting the soul residing inside the body to leave it and go to the Netherworld. Kaguya and Mokou have their concepts of death absolutely erased from existence due to effects of Hourai Elixir so they can't die. Remilia and Flandre are already somewhat "dead" (undead), although we do not know if this counts as having a soul or not. Gods probably would also be unable to die, as they're you know, gods, it can't be possibly so easy. I am not quite sure about youkai - if we can count them as having souls or is soul a concept native only to humans in Gensokyo. And what about celestial beings like Tenshi, shinigami like Komachi, jiang shi as Yoshika, hermits  and of course Youmu, a half-ghost? I rather like to think that Yuyuko's power works only on humans, and not on inhuman beings - that would kinda justify why Yuyuko killed herself instead of using her power to eliminate any threats against fellow humans that came from the youkai of Gensokyo.

Celestials and Hermits are trying to avoid death in the form of kishin attacks so, I think its pretty fair to say that they can die, in the human sense. Yoshika is pretty much a zombie right? Sounds dead. Youmu's soul is the ghost flying around her so she still has a soul, but I'm not sure how effective it would be for Yuyuko to invite it to the netherworld since youmu already lives there (no?).

[Hatateru]

Actually, at one point I really believed that Yuyuko's power is similar to that Tohno/Nanaya guy from Tsukihime. They can kill anything as long as it's able to die. Maybe her power affects the victim's concept of death rather than their soul?

[Sagus]

As for Yuyuko's power it's actually much more intimidating when we hear about it, than after we realize that in Gensokyo there are many beings that can be considered immune to her power. Her ability is taht she invokes death in a person by inviting the soul residing inside the body to leave it and go to the Netherworld. Kaguya and Mokou have their concepts of death absolutely erased from existence due to effects of Hourai Elixir so they can't die. Remilia and Flandre are already somewhat "dead" (undead), although we do not know if this counts as having a soul or not. Gods probably would also be unable to die, as they're you know, gods, it can't be possibly so easy. I am not quite sure about youkai - if we can count them as having souls or is soul a concept native only to humans in Gensokyo. And what about celestial beings like Tenshi, shinigami like Komachi, jiang shi as Yoshika, hermits  and of course Youmu, a half-ghost? I rather like to think that Yuyuko's power works only on humans, and not on inhuman beings - that would kinda justify why Yuyuko killed herself instead of using her power to eliminate any threats against fellow humans that came from the youkai of Gensokyo.

We don't know if vampires from this universe are actually undead, so we can't say that Remilia and Flandre would be immune based on that.

Youkai most likely do have souls, considering that Shikieiki goes around lecturing them too. If they didn't have souls, they wouldn't be judged by her, and therefore she wouldn't bother them considering that they would never go to hell or heaven anyway. Also, she says to Cirno, after discussing how she's causing too much trouble and may not be able to return to nature: "In other words, that means death. If you die, then we will most definitely judge you. At that time, whether you will go to heaven or hell... Well, we don't know that yet".

Although being a god doesn't necessarily mean much in Gensokyo (Shizuka and Minoriko aren't that great), I also don't think her power works on them, considering they're basically made of faith and are mostly spiritual beings anyway. And since shinigami are death gods I suppose they wouldn't be affected either.

Celestials and Hermits can die (kishins go hunt for them after all), so they should be affected by her ability. Yoshika is already a soulless husk, according to SoPM, so she probably wouldn't be affected. Youmu is half dead, not fully dead. Her soul is probably not the large phantom thing; that is said to be a part of her body in her IN profile and in PMiSS. And anyway, half-phantoms are said to have a longer life span compared to humans, but are still implied to be mortals, so she most certainly can be affected by Yuyuko's ability.

Yuyuko died way before the creation of the Hakurei Barrier, so she wouldn't use her power to protect humans from there. 'Sides, she was friends with a youkai (Yukari), so I don't think she'd go around killing them.

She killed herself because she was afraid of her own power. Imagine being able to kill anything with just a thought, regardless of what it is. Any burst of anger and there, you killed someone.. She probably was too much of a nice person in life, and her power burdened her to the point where suicide was the only way to guarantee she wouldn't hurt anyone.

Well, it's how I like to interpret it anyway.

Actually, at one point I really believed that Yuyuko's power is similar to that Tohno/Nanaya guy from Tsukihime. They can kill anything as long as it's able to die. Maybe her power affects the victim's concept of death rather than their soul?

I think Flandre's power is more similar to the Eyes of Death Perception that Shiki Ryougi/Shiki Tohno have. The difference being that she can make the "death lines" appear on her hand, instead of having to hit them in the target.

The problem I have with equating Yuyuko's power with theirs like that is that her power is specifically stated to have grown from "ability to manipulate departed souls" to "ability to invite others to death" in her profile...

[Starxsword]

So if you do, you will know that she exists, but you'll more than likely forget every meeting you have with her like as if you never met her before, but you know she exists.

I have a different interpretation on this. Marisa and Akyuu seem to remember Koishi well enough. I am more inclined to think of it as a more forgettable event or I should put it, unimportant event. But I don't think you forget about it.
I will compare to Yukari's semi-monologue on A Beautiful Flower Blooming Violet Every Sixty Years where she tries to recall the flower incident. She couldn't recall, because it wasn't important, it was mundane.

@Yuyuko's power: Her power is interesting, but I do wonder who it works on. Does it work on youkai that are were inanimate? The likes of Kogasa, Medicine, etc. Or does it only work on youkai that are "living", like animals and such, Shou, Nazrin, etc. I believe the latter is likely, but I am unsure about the former. I believe that it would work on some youkai, but not others, depending on what youkai they are. For instance, I do not think Yuyuko's power would work on Medicine.

As for it working on celestials, I would say no to celestials, but yes to hermits. Hermits, I don't think have ascended yet, even if they are close. Celestials, I believe could either have ascended from being a hermits, or could have become one after they died. Kind of like Godhood. Just like how if Youmu were to slash a ghost with her Hakurouken, it should cause them to ascend and become a celestial.

Oh yeah, I would also say no to it working on gods.

Of course, her power requires no gestures or signs, which makes it impossible to tell if she even used it on you, other than after the fact.

[Malyszeq]

Inanimate youkai? I think that if they were to die by Yuyuko's power they'd probably just revert to their original state (Kokoro into a collection of masks, Kogasa into an umbrella etc.) The problem is that we're not sure how does an object become a youkai, and if it gains anything that could be called a "soul" in the process...

[Drake]

Inanimate objects that may become tsukumogami, like tools, inherently have a "soul". In the meta sense, the more you use a tool, the better its products become because the tool gets "better" and you're more familiar with it. By the contrary, tools that are forgotten/abandoned may still wish to perform their duty, or despise whoever forgot them, or whatever. At some unknown point in time, when they are "sufficiently forgotten" in that nobody is aware that it exists at all, it can manifest into a tsukumogami. This rides on the very common japanese youkai theme where if nobody knows / is aware about something, then that something is secretly alive and/or causes mysterious things to happen. So the question isn't really about if the objects have a soul or not, but whether or not there is really a sense of death with tsukumogami at all. Personally it makes more sense to me that a "dead" tsukumogami just reincarnates into a similar object, so Yuyuko's ability to invite one to death doesn't seem like it would affect them.

[TrueShadow]

I also just read about the Shinto concept of soul. By using an object, it means that you are sharing your "soul" with the object. And when you discard those objects, they still have the soul that you gave them. These souls will grow resentful, and this is what causes those objects to become a tsukumogami.

[Clarste]

The "soul" of a tsukumogami is a "kami", which is literally the same thing as a god. When they say "gods exist in everything" they're talking about the souls of tools and whatnot. Although these are the weak nameless gods that have no faith. Anyway, a tsukumogami would probably work the same way as a god, for Yuyuko's ability.

[Starxsword]

I also just read about the Shinto concept of soul. By using an object, it means that you are sharing your "soul" with the object. And when you discard those objects, they still have the soul that you gave them. These souls will grow resentful, and this is what causes those objects to become a tsukumogami.

I am not sure about the Shinto concept of soul, but I can tell you what an general Eastern concept of a soul is like. Everything has a soul, be it an animal or an object. So, trees, plants, steel, sand, etc. all have souls. I do not think Yuyuko's ability extends that far to the extent that she can affect any object, be it normal or magical.
I think her ability is unlikely to affect Tsukumogami, but that is up in the air. It kind of depends on a person to person interpretation.

[ShiroiMahotsukai]

If everything has a soul and it still takes years for them to come to life then I feel that it must be different. For Tsukumogami I think she probably could it they had progressed far enough to manifest physical form. Kogasa for example, I doubt Yuyuko could have killed her when she was a sad little umberella looking out of an old stand because her sould and her body are one and cannot be seperated, but I think it would work now because of how far she's progressed.

[Drake]

The point is that there is no concept of death for these things. There is no difference between the literal umbrella and the tsukumogami, the tsukumogami just gets to assume another form.

[ShiroiMahotsukai]

Oh, I always thought they were different. Aside from that I wonder what the target feels while being "Invited" to Death. Is it a long tunnel with light at the end? Or do you have to climb the staircase to Hakugyokurou for eternal rest?

[Malyszeq]

I believe it might be like feeling an irresistible urge to sleep, but you know that you shouldn't fall asleep because something will get horribly wrong - and after you fall asleep you find yourself immaterial. At least I hope it's not as drastic as Death Note type of death with chest pains, heart attack and so on... xD

[Drake]

I generally take the "invitation to death" as a change of the person's willingness to die. It is the same as the Saigyou Ayakashi's ability with the same wording and everything, and when people were killed by the tree, they would pretty much sit under it, fall asleep and die. While Yuyuko's ability might not invoke the same mechanisms, I find it likely that it would mirror the tree in the same way.