Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears

[Zil]

I'd also arguing a run using level 2s to be "perfect" at all. the only thing I'd consider "perfect" for PoFV would be no miss (maybe no damage if you're crazy), no charge and no bomb. so just dodge and shoot, pretty much.

But that's ridiculous. It's a fundamental aspect of the game, akin to GFW's ice shield. (I might even go so far as to say that it's the same for bombing in PoDD, given the game's tendency to give you humanly impossible situations, and the lack of any penalty for using the bomb in the first place.)

But anyway, yes, Eiki can no miss the game easily. Even no damage should be "doable" (and I use the word generously). Reimu could with extreme luck, and a few others have a one in a million chance (Cirno, Youmu, Marisa, etc.).

NMNB wouldn't be too hard in PoDD if you use Yumemi or Reimu. Adding no damage would be considerably harder, though the game is quite cheese-able if you're playing for pure survival, so that could be done as well.

what kill the AI with reimu isn't it entering the rings, but her ying yang orb.

She has a variety of things that can work. The most effective is by far her level 3 spell, though the yin-yangs and the homing boss attack also work. The level 2 almost never hits fast characters, but it's not useless. Of course, all of those things can work in conjunction with each other.

Edit: Or you could just acknowledge the fact that you're not supposed to win the first round and call a 1-miss run perfect. Muh.

[Karisa]

I might even go so far as to say that it's the same for bombing in PoDD, given the game's tendency to give you humanly impossible situations, and the lack of any penalty for using the bomb in the first place.

Except bomb penalties weren't introduced until MS...

[Zil]

Fair enough. :[

In other news:





>:I

[Zengeku]

While technically not living entirely up to the 'perfect' run restrictions for UFO, I still figured this beautiful little run deserved some attention.

http://score.royalflare.net/th12/replay12/th12_ud0fc4.rpy

It's a no-miss, no-bomb, full-spell run of UFO Lunatic with ReimuA but UFO's are summoned for scoring purposes allowing the player (E-Splice) to get away with 2,316,317,130 points. In other words, it's perfect survival on top of well executed score play so I personally find that it's worth giving some credit to. You might not agree to list it since it indeed does summon UFO's and it's your thread and your rules Wriggle but I wanted to mention it here anyway. If nothing else so that interested people who might not have seen the replay otherwise can get a chance to watch it.

[Wriggle]

Well, as far as I know, UFOs themselves can't be used as much as border break for survival except clearing the screen at some specific spots of the stage portions, but since every previous LNMNB was also NUFO, it was no problem to add NUFO as a condition to the run be perfect, but I haven't played much of UFO so I can't be sure oh how much they can be useful for survival on their own. What do you guys more experienced with UFO think?

[chirpy13]

UFOs can make pretty much all the hard stuff in stage 3 not very hard, and some of the hard stuff in stage 4/5.  I guess most of the difficulty is in Shou and Byakuren anyway, but that's beside the point.

[Zengeku]

I am not sure about that Chirpy. The stuff you are thinking about isn't actually that hard to do. I watched the replay and the UFO usage didn't make things very much easier. Perhabs it might've made the spams on Stage 3 more manageable but those are not too bad anyway. I believe that carrying out a proper UFO route and maintaining NMNB is considerably harder than just NMNBNV'ing the stage portions.

I'd also point out that for survival purposes, most of the game's difficulty stem from bosses or stage portions that aren't trivialized with UFO summons in the replay in question.

I have 5 times as much playtime as you have in this so bow before my experience  :V - or something. In any case, you could always just add it to the list wriggle and then put a notification on it that says (uses UFO's for scoring purposes). Trust me, the UFO's don't simplify survival the same way that trances or borders can.

[Mino ☆]

I definitely think this run deserves a spot on the list. The NMNB condition was filled, and the UFOs were only used for scoring purposes to receive over 2 bil in points!

Just put an asterisk saying that UFOs were summoned.

This LNN looks like a fun watch. Can't wait to watch it.

While you're at it. I think ASL's TD LNNN run should be put on the list as well, with an asterisk stating that a spell was timed out. The NMNBNT condition was filled, after all.

[chirpy13]

I am not sure about that Chirpy. The stuff you are thinking about isn't actually that hard to do. I watched the replay and the UFO usage didn't make things very much easier. Perhabs it might've made the spams on Stage 3 more manageable but those are not too bad anyway. I believe that carrying out a proper UFO route and maintaining NMNB is considerably harder than just NMNBNV'ing the stage portions.

Well that much is obvious.  I was more referring to usuing UFOs for survival/bullet cancels when I posted that.   And god dammit, it is hard :<.  The spam is not the worst of it though, it's those damn fairies right after Ichirin.  I'm probably the only one who finds them hard though...

[Zengeku]

You were playing with SanaeB when you were shooting for that clear of yours. She has a harder time passing that bit than other types I find. Still nothing impossible, it's all about memorizing positions and take them down before they get nasty. It's much easier to do with ReimuA though. She will in turn have a harder time with the spam bit than SanaeB will, but it's still nothing soul-crushing if you are a decent player.

[Wriggle]

Well, sure I added it. I should watch it soon. :3

While you're at it. I think ASL's TD LNNN run should be put on the list as well, with an asterisk stating that a spell was timed out. The NMNBNT condition was filled, after all.

By default full cap is needed for a "perfect". I've barely bothered with ASL's run because we already have a bunch of ReimuA's full-cap LNNN. It's not like SOC's Scarlet Team LNN that he failed at Reimu's Last Spell bullshit. The latter would be more worth adding for being the only one with Scarlet Team and that fights Reimu on stage 4.

[Mino ☆]

Well I'm sorry to hear his run isn't ☯♥♡PERFECT♡♥☯ enough for your standards. :V

Maybe I'll make a compilation thread for No Miss No Bomb type achievements, for every game and every difficulty. It seems like a lot of work, but I'd be up for it.

But is there really any point? Maybe not.

[Wriggle]

Well, I think people would just skip to Lunatic and barely give attention to the other difficulties. :V Except maybe GFW's Extra, that I've only seen one NMNB so far.

[Zengeku]

No, please don't go around making a new thread just for that purpose. It would be much better to just have it here. Really wriggle, maybe you could put in NMNB runs that doesn't quite make the terms for 'perfect' runs in their own box? I think it's worthwhile to have them here because the runs are still really awesome but just keep them seperated from the 'perfect' runs.

[chum]

You could add notable "close calls" at the bottom, maybe. Like the run that I saw on Mino's stream, which had a double KO on LFS could deserve to be highlighted due to how damn close it was.

[Wriggle]

Well, there's enough asking of this. I'll add it.

IN would be the most beneficed game since there's even a Malice NMNB run (not 100% sure, I don't remember very well), but the guy purposefully runs at the bosses on the Last Spells. I'll take a look at my replays folder. Still, ASL's run would pretty much be obscured by the other fully perfect ones, but heh, the box will already be there so no reason to not add it.

Do you guys think 1MNB should make it in? I also have a L1MNB of HECATE that he dies to Devil's Recitation. That'd only apply if the players haven't got a LNN(N) yet though, e.g. it'd be kinda pointless to have Clio's or coa's LNN and L1MNB.

[Mino ☆]

There's EOH's 1MNB run of UFO Lunatic. He died so stupidly at the very end of LFS. Which was probably the biggest heartbreak I've seen in these types of runs.

Well, I'm not going to make the compilation thread. There's no point, since this thread already exists, anyway.

[Zengeku]

Yes, by all means. Just have that clone call category and leave a little notification in front of all replays explaining what's special about them. Even with a single flaw like that, good runs deserve some recognition and it never hurts to have a good collection of good replays easy to browse through.

These replays are the sort of stuff I personally spend a few minutes browsing through royalflare looking for but not everyone has the japanese knowledge required (minor as it is) to do so, so having them easily found here is good i think even if they aren't entirely perfect.

[chum]

Well, everyone is gonna have a different opinion on this stuff, but... No miss/no bombs is the main thing, and I think border breaks/tranced runs should not be included, while those that use UFOs may be (for now) since the only one we have right now only used UFO's for scoring, not for free screen clears, which only made the run harder to complete.

On the other hand, I don't see a reason why a run that timed something out shouldn't be included. The "perfect" mindset is flawed when it comes to this, It's a western thing which people have used to apply to stage practice runs, not to full runs. Applying this standard that nothing can be timed out to a full game run where some attacks will inevitably be timed out from time to time due to RNG making it impossible to capture... is not quite fair.

Then again, how these anomalies are noted isn't important to me. If you're not gonna add the NBNT to the list, it does still deserve to be noted somehow, which is why I think it would be interesting to add a "close calls" section at the bottom for those ridiculously close runs. Of course, this may be turn a bit arbitrary...

[Wriggle]

Okay guys, I added the section, with the replays I was aware of and the other ones mentioned. Also, if anyone's good at analyzing run's legitimacy, it'd be good to check jugem's, it felt kinda dubious for me.

EDIT: also beware we shouldn't overdo it or else it'll get repetitive. As in, not dumping a bunch of random L1MNB, but only when either when it's a shot that doesn't have a perfect run for or another special reason (like EOH's). For LNN(N)'s with failed spellcards, in very most cases they're okay.

[Mino ☆]

Game: Mountain of Faith
F-D - ReimuA - 1,698,090,710 - Replay

No Miss 1 Bomb run. The bomb was at Moses Miracle of all things, but it's definitely a close call. The NMNB Stage 4 was pretty impressive, as he actually captured the walls without timing Momiji out.

[Zengeku]

That's pretty easy to do with ReimuB but this is ReimuA. Sounds like a replay I should be watching now, thanks for sharin'!

[Wriggle]

Yay a ReimuA run. Added. I should watch it as well sometime, I like MoF's ReimuA. :3

[Mino ☆]

Found an epic SA Perfect! With MarisaB too! This run is awesome. Check it out!

えなめる - MarisaB - 2,333,446,970 - Replay

EDIT: It turns out, he skipped Cat Walk. So, where does this replay go?

[Wriggle]

Well, close calls. It'll still bring some attention for being MarisaB, though.

[Sakurei]

the jugem replay with youmu finalB is probably a fake. we (chum, karisa, minogame and me) watched it onstream and found qutie a few things fishy. first the way he handled youmu was extremely awkward, in a way that I feel nobody who's already used her a lot would move like that (movement in general was unnormal, but youmu made it really stand out).
next is that his stage routes are on part with someone who's doing normal mode - bottom hugging, no PoC, shit cancels. I'd assume someone with the confidence to NMNB would have a non shitty stage route to cancel out a lot of bullets to minimize death, but he didn't have it. score-wise, it's the same deal as with goldenfox' replay. you'd think someone who can NMNB would be able to PoC at least and get something like 3b and above.
we assume it's a savestated run and not slowdowned.


it'd be nice if someone else could watch the replay and see if they agree, but we think it's not legit.

[Wriggle]

Pretty much the same case as Goldfox then. I found the replays very similar, even the way the captured Kaguya's first and third nonspells were the exact same. Before adding I watched it at 120FPS to confirm if it was NMNB, and noticed all the points you stated except the movement (and didn't pay much attention to the bottom hugging although the PoC avoidance was very fishy). They also used too much focus, which even not-very-experienced players wouldn't do, even when playing casually. Also how they didn't even get Mystia's Last Spell to be called.

Seems like enough people agreed that it's not legit, and consequently it's not impressive either, so I'll take it out. Thanks for analyzing it.

[Karisa]

Also notably, the times when they actually did PoC seemed delayed, as if they hadn't memorized the stages yet. And it was very strange how they didn't even try to capture most of the last spells (and one of the only last spells that was captured, Kaguya's 1st, involved moving to the corner for no reason).

But yes, I'd consider it incredibly unlikely someone who's played the game enough to clear Lunatic (or even Normal) without dying or bombing, and choose solo Youmu over other possible characters, would be playing like that.

[Wriggle]

Okay, I watched the SA MarisaB run more calmly, and now I get what Mino said. The run's impressiveness made me rethinking about the "fullcap policy" I've been annoyingly keeping, and there's a few points that could possibly support this case or similar ones:

-He didn't explicitly fail the spellcard since the didn't fight it at all, which is somewhat similar to safespotting a spell, which is common for BoWaP on the perfect runs.
-The popcorn spam can be as hard or harder than Catwalk, in an overall view (pretty much only MarisaB or ReimuC would trivialize it, or very maybe ReimuA).
-MoF+ games doesn't seem to  track, or take spellcard captures too seriously given there isn't the statistics screen after the run anymore, but that also goes to other stuff like misses or bombs so idk if this counts.
-One exception like this wouldn't be really a problem for other games since the only other tough-enough-worth-skipping-the-spellcard is Stage 5 Nazrin, but timing out the nonspell won't skip Greatest Treasure.

Discuss.

[Zil]

Personally I don't see a reason to care so much about spells being captured. NMNB is NMNB, regardless of the means by which it is achieved. On the other hand, if you want to define "perfect" as capturing all the spells as well, then I guess that's just how it is. (And in that case, I wouldn't excuse skipping cat's walk.)