Author Topic: Madoka discussion thread  (Read 15759 times)

Nobu

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Madoka discussion thread
« on: January 07, 2013, 02:00:23 PM »
Sorry for inflaming you guys earlier with my insensitivity. -_-; In an attempted act of penance, I offer you something that you can tease me about.

Spent this morning bawling over the ending of Madoka. I can't help but hate myself a little bit more by the day.
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2013, 02:03:12 PM »
Oversensitivity, more like :V
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2013, 03:46:59 PM »
bawling over the ending of Madoka.

I'm not sure that's something anyone here can really tease you about. If they do then they're being jerks.  :ohdear:


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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 03:52:08 PM »
Me and the friend that I made watch Madoka (he ended up marathoning it starting at about 1am while I yelled at him to go to sleep) both cried at some point during the anime, so...

oh yeah, and the other friend I made watch it too :D

LET'S ALL CRY TOGETHER. It's like a pity party!
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 04:03:08 PM »
Uh, yeah, this is a bit like "confessing" that you cried at the end of Beaches or E.T.

Dude, everyone who watched the series cried at the end of Madoka. Anyone who says they didn't is lying.

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 04:12:05 PM »
I would be worried if you didn't cry at the end of Madoka. That reminds me, my room mate walked into my room during the scene where they are in heaven (for lack of a better term) and pretty much naked. He looked at the screen, looked at me, and had this "wtf man" look on his face and I was like "its not porn, I promise its not porn." He still thinks it was porn...

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 04:34:22 PM »
I don't really remember crying at the end of Madoka, though that may be because everytime I watch it it's a marathon.

Though I did cry 4 separate times during my first viewing of ef ~a tale of memories~ including catatonic bawling at after the 11th episode.

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 05:51:06 PM »
<Kilga> Let's please leave the last thread in the last thread and not bring it into this thread beyond what's in the OP.
Very well then and sorry!  In that case:
Spent this morning bawling over the ending of Madoka.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 09:37:05 PM by theshim »

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 11:12:25 PM »
lik dis if u cri evrytim
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 08:57:56 AM »
Actually I'm sorta of in the middle of watching the series, (magical girl nonsense isn't up my alley [unless it's comedy/parody] but everyone seems to give it rave reviews) so I don't know if I'll be saddened (complete with eyes misting) or not. Grave of the Fireflies has been the only thing that has actually made me weep though.  I'll see if I can't accelerate the watching and see what I think.

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 10:49:34 AM »
It wasn't that bad was it? It was sad yea, but not everyone would have cried, right?

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 04:56:20 PM »
yo errone should read Hanokage's official manga sidestory, Madoka Magica ~the different story~

it's got Kyouko being cute and optimistic, and a brand new special attack of Mami's, and
Spoiler:
crushing despair

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 10:06:14 PM »
Assuming the spoilered bit isn't a joke, isn't such a thing one of the descriptors of the franchise in general?   :V

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 10:44:14 PM »
I uh may have

i may have not cried during madoka

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 10:49:17 PM »
yo errone should read Hanokage's official manga sidestory, Madoka Magica ~the different story~

it's got Kyouko being cute and optimistic, and a brand new special attack of Mami's, and
Spoiler:
crushing despair

The third one just got scanlated omgomgomg

Imosa

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 11:30:55 PM »
I was actually fairly unimpressed by the ending of Madoka. I was a little more impressed when I watched the movie. Ultimately the best part of the entire series was Homura explaining herself. Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not. 
There are just so many bad decisions and things that don't make sense that by the time the ending came around it just didn't seem like much of a resolution. I dunno, does someone wanna help me with this?

Here's a question I thought of this morning (No I don't just think about this sort of thing, I was prompted)
Spoiler:
Time is, in no way, reset after Madoka does her thing with, right?

Nobu

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 12:02:04 AM »
I was actually fairly unimpressed by the ending of Madoka. I was a little more impressed when I watched the movie. Ultimately the best part of the entire series was Homura explaining herself. Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not. 
There are just so many bad decisions and things that don't make sense that by the time the ending came around it just didn't seem like much of a resolution. I dunno, does someone wanna help me with this?

Here's a question I thought of this morning (No I don't just think about this sort of thing, I was prompted)
Spoiler:
Time is, in no way, reset after Madoka does her thing with, right?

*Madoka spoilers*

The way that I perceive Madoka, is that when she said 'Kami-sama demo nan demo nai' meant that Madoka didn't even care if she became the entropy that drags the universe into it's inevitable doom. Madoka became entropy herself, a self-sacrifice solely so that the people that become magical girls do not have to cry knowing that their efforts have been all for naught. It is the peace of knowing that there is a saviour out there that has and always will be fighting for you. Madoka became 'hope' and 'entropy' combined. She became the reason why Kyuubey and the like are 'incubators'.

The reason why Puella Magi fight in the world, is because they have a benevolent god that grants their wishes. That's the only difference between space-time before and after it gets reorganized by Madoka's new laws of the universe. Instead of getting a wish granted and then watching reality twist their wish into the exact opposite of what they wanted, Puella Magi disappear because that's simply the payment for creating a net good on the world. They get their wishes granted without having to cry tears of sorrow, because Madoka exists and all Puella Magi have her as their patron saint.

At least, that's the way I interpreted things. The reason why Homura wields a bow and has 'witch' wings at the end of Madoka is because her original wish became granted. She wanted a life where the only thing that mattered is her love for Madoka. Thus, when she thought that all hope was lost and that she couldn't live on, she remembered Madoka and also the promise that they made. The promise, simply being that no one would ever forget Madoka or the good that she tried to inflict upon the world.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 01:01:53 AM by Moriya Nobu »
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2013, 12:51:47 AM »
(you should make sure to put a spoiler warning on that, just fyi)

I'm a sucker for sad endings, actually. I've cried to no less then five movies.
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2013, 02:29:57 AM »
Theories galore
I've just spent way too much time on this... and I can't spend more time on it.

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2013, 02:44:31 AM »
I was actually fairly unimpressed by the ending of Madoka. I was a little more impressed when I watched the movie. Ultimately the best part of the entire series was Homura explaining herself. Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not. 
There are just so many bad decisions and things that don't make sense that by the time the ending came around it just didn't seem like much of a resolution. I dunno, does someone wanna help me with this?

Here's a question I thought of this morning (No I don't just think about this sort of thing, I was prompted)
Spoiler:
Time is, in no way, reset after Madoka does her thing with, right?

I mostly agree with you, I was unimpressed with Madoka's character for most of the series just because she was so useless. But upon further consideration, and especially upon reading A Different Story, I've started to come around.

Anime spoilers follow; manga spoilers are marked as such, as vol. 3 of A Different Story just came out.

The other four may be smarter, stronger, more outwardly confident and decisive. That much is true. But all four are also deeply conflicted; they present facades to others or to themselves. Whether out of pride, fear, or whatever other reason, all four retain these delusions until they forget how to live any other way--and that's what ultimately engineers their destruction.
Homura refuses to tell others when she's hurting and when she needs help; she deludes herself into thinking she can handle everything alone. Result-- She alienates everyone else, puts herself through a lot of emotional pain, and plays into QB's hands.
Mami puts on the image of a perfect heroine when really she's just lonely and needy. Result-- She gives Sayaka unrealistic expectations, and she doesn't have Homura's help in the fight against Charlotte, with predictable results. Furthermore, she
Spoiler:
almost goes Witch when her bottled-up feelings of abandonment come out. She's also indirectly responsible for Kyouko's death, by getting in a fight with her over a misunderstanding that could've been avoided if the two had been frank about how they feel about each other.
Sayaka wants to be a shining ray of justice like she thinks Mami was. She doesn't realize that ideal is unrealistic, and in fact Mami didn't live up to it either. She doesn't realize it's okay to want to be with Kyosuke. She doesn't realize that heroes have failings too. Result--she blames herself for everything, and succumbs to despair. Her descent is all the sharper in the manga where
Spoiler:
she actually neglects to save Hitomi. She changes her mind and comes back to save Madoka and everybody, of course, but she feels horrible about it. She then cuts off her ties with Mami, because for Mami to team up with a failure of a hero is incompatible with Sayaka's image of Mami. Eventually, Sayaka does learn that Mami isn't perfect and just wants a friend--but it's already too late for her.)
Kyouko thinks she's happy just eating and playing and fighting. She doesn't realize until too late that she wants to be friends with Sayaka--and with Mami, in the manga. Result-- a lot of needless fighting, and
Spoiler:
in both stories, Kyouko's death fighting Oktavia.

Contrast Madoka. Unlike Mami and Homura, she's not afraid to admit when she's hurting. Unlike Sayaka, she doesn't tie her self-worth into an external, unattainable ideal. Unlike Kyouko, she's always willing and ready to approach others. For these reasons, she makes friends very easily. This is especially so in the manga--
Spoiler:
Kyouko avoids Mami for much of the story because she doesn't think her old senpai would ever take her back. It's Madoka who approaches Kyouko and makes the first steps toward bridging the gap.

Of course, it's easy for her to be honest when she doesn't have any skin in the game. She's powerless to affect the horrible things that are happening around her. For much of the show, she doesn't even know what she wants for herself. But, I submit, that's better than having the wrong idea what you want for yourself. She is warm, open, and selfless to her core, and because of that, she's willing to give Homura and Kyouko a chance, she's willing to keep calling out to Sayaka at great personal risk, and she's willing to be friends with the shy, sad new transfer student--which starts the chain of events that lead to the story in the first place.

Magical girls turning into Witches is a powerful metaphor because it's ultimately what's inside the girls--their own emotional blocks, their own excuses for not getting along better with others--that destroys them. No amount of fighting prowess will overcome that. And so in the end, it's Madoka--poor, weak, naive, useless, honest, kind, genuine Madoka--who turns the tide.

Spoiler:
also pink hair is cute

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2013, 04:08:43 AM »
Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not.



Maullar put it in a much better way than I could have, but I'll add that I found Madoka's solution to be a very clever way to turn the system in place on its head.

Imosa

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2013, 04:46:43 AM »
All that sweet character analysis
*warning Madoka spoilers*
I hadn't thought about that, pretty cool. However, that's not why I wasn't impressed with the ending. The characters were fine for the most part. That they couldn't be more honest with themselves did annoy me but only in some situations did I think it was unrealistic. In the end however, the mind does strange things at that age, I've never been a girl, and the stress of the whole "magical girl thing" couldn't have helped so I'll leave my points there aside.
What bothers me is this whole "system" that was established by the Incubators, and Homura's wish. I'll make a few points here.
1) ANY wish?! QB is evidently full of shit from the moment you meet him. If he can grant any wish why doesn't he just ask the person to wish the problem away. Ok, it seems like there is more too it then just getting any wish, potential works it's way into the quality of your wish but this should at least tip people off. Some girl in history must have figured this out and I think Sayaka, Madoka, and Homura, could have figured it out. Maybe this wouldn't evade the plot entirely but it would certainly have eased the characters into the situation rather then have them feel like they'd been outright tricked into a bad deal.
2) Why does Madoka keep getting stronger? I am told it's because the time lines are based around her but how is that? Homura just wanted to go back in time, yes, to save Madoka, but how does that lead to the exponential compounding of power. Animelogic, but I'm not buying it this time. Time travel is a fickle thing. That Homura's mind persists but the rest of her body does not is one thing but that another girl's potential compounds, is just weird. I've never seen that in any interpretation of time travel.
3) Homura is about to louse all hope at the end of the series. A bit of a personal investment here because I like Homura and her perseverance. I thought I remember her mentioning that she's traveled back in time over 1000 times. If all the events take place over the course of a month, that means that Homura has been in this loop for about 83 years. Is that when she just calls it quits? I don't believe that. You don't dedicated 83 years to something and then choose to stop on your 1000th+x failure. However she has a realization that's making her quit, Madoka's sink hole, which brings us to...
4) Homura's problem is solving itself. It was explained to me that if Homura fails and Madoka becomes a magical girl, she either dies trying to kill Walpurgis, or she uses all her power beating Walpurgis and turns into a witch. However, if Madoka just continues getting stronger with each timeline then, won't she at some point be so god mod that she can beat Walpurgis without turning into a witch?
A note to finish up #3, if I'm right this should have occurred to Homura in 83 years. There is no way Homura didn't spend part of that time considering her situation and in 83 years you can do a lot of considering. 

I think that's all I've got right now. I've got some quips with Madoka's wish and it's result, but that's not really nailed down, an idea I had this morning (again, I was prompted), and a few problems with character decisions but I don't have time to mention those.


I found Madoka's solution to be a very clever way to turn the system in place on its head.
The system was working just fine before and after Madoka's wish. She didn't turn it on it's head, she just massaged it so that it didn't offend the most emotional denomination of mankind.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 04:52:43 AM by Imosa »

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2013, 05:05:02 AM »
I really should watch Madoka...

...as soon as I finish Accel World :derp:

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2013, 05:05:36 AM »
Dude, everyone who watched the series cried at the end of Madoka. Anyone who says they didn't is lying.

I never cried watching any anime or movie, if you want strong emotions go watch one anime called "Ano hi mita hana no namae wo bokutachi wa mada shiranai". I almost cried watching it, if it had some extra drama with dogs I couldn't resist :P
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2013, 05:38:51 AM »
Ano Hana was painfully average.

Nobu

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2013, 06:54:33 AM »
I like Ano Hana.
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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2013, 09:57:52 AM »
So, Madoka thread?

Discussing the story always provokes a lively conversation is all, and since it seems that's already started, why not?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 12:12:37 PM by Tengukami »

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2013, 04:19:51 PM »
the story is a metaphor for basketball

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2013, 05:20:40 PM »
1) ANY wish?! QB is evidently full of shit from the moment you meet him. If he can grant any wish why doesn't he just ask the person to wish the problem away. Ok, it seems like there is more too it then just getting any wish, potential works it's way into the quality of your wish but this should at least tip people off. Some girl in history must have figured this out and I think Sayaka, Madoka, and Homura, could have figured it out. Maybe this wouldn't evade the plot entirely but it would certainly have eased the characters into the situation rather then have them feel like they'd been outright tricked into a bad deal.
Except that it's clearly stated that he can't grant any wish. Judging by how the ending played out, I'd say he actually uses the girl's own power to grant the wish. Or possibly, given that he's a lying liar who lies, it's the girls who grant their own wishes as part of the process of becoming a Puella Magi.
Quote
2) Why does Madoka keep getting stronger? I am told it's because the time lines are based around her but how is that? Homura just wanted to go back in time, yes, to save Madoka, but how does that lead to the exponential compounding of power. Animelogic, but I'm not buying it this time. Time travel is a fickle thing. That Homura's mind persists but the rest of her body does not is one thing but that another girl's potential compounds, is just weird. I've never seen that in any interpretation of time travel.
I always assumed that Homura carries it with her. Since she's so devoted to Madoka, she brings a bit of Madoka with her when she returns. Alternatively, you may have answered this yourself in the fourth question: it's Homura's wish granting itself. Also, Homura's body does persist, otherwise she'd have to re-contract each loop.
Quote
3) Homura is about to louse all hope at the end of the series. A bit of a personal investment here because I like Homura and her perseverance. I thought I remember her mentioning that she's traveled back in time over 1000 times. If all the events take place over the course of a month, that means that Homura has been in this loop for about 83 years. Is that when she just calls it quits? I don't believe that. You don't dedicated 83 years to something and then choose to stop on your 1000th+x failure. However she has a realization that's making her quit, Madoka's sink hole, which brings us to...
We don't get to see most of those 1000 loops. (It'd be a damn long series if we did) There's nothing to say that she wasn't slowly losing hope over time, in fact it's more than likely that she was. It's highly likely that she's been contemplating giving up for a long time, saying to herself "Just one more try". Even in the "current" loop, if events hadn't unfolded as they did, that she would have changed her mind and gone back once again.
Quote
4) Homura's problem is solving itself. It was explained to me that if Homura fails and Madoka becomes a magical girl, she either dies trying to kill Walpurgis, or she uses all her power beating Walpurgis and turns into a witch. However, if Madoka just continues getting stronger with each timeline then, won't she at some point be so god mod that she can beat Walpurgis without turning into a witch?
A note to finish up #3, if I'm right this should have occurred to Homura in 83 years. There is no way Homura didn't spend part of that time considering her situation and in 83 years you can do a lot of considering. 
Madoka is as powerful as she is because of all of the pent-up despair hiding inside her, just waiting to be activated by her becoming a Puella Magi. The more despair a Puella Magi has, the more likely they are to turn into a witch. Therefore, even if she becomes powerful enough to defeat Walpurgisnacht as a Puella Magi, she'll be so full of despair that she can't help but become a witch.

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2013, 06:51:38 PM »
I don't recall Homura ever saying how many loops she's been through.

IIRC it was explained that the girl's despair is what determines how large their wish can be, and the nature of the wish determines the girl's power, so the reason Madoka in particular gets more powerful is presumably because her despair somehow gets compounded over each timeline and then her wishes become stronger and stronger. I mean her first wish is to revive a cat and so she's pretty weak; her wish in the recent timeline is presumably to be able to defeat Walpurgis and save Homura, which makes her stupidly powerful. If the timelines act like "parallel" universes, Madoka's despair might end up syncing up and accumulating. But it's really just speculation.

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