Author Topic: Magical Lotus - Mahou Shoujou Byakuren - Episode 2, part 3 (Read 37400 times)

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #330 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:39:34 AM »

Allow me this, at least.

>Has there been any event in our background history that would lead us to be at all in favor of killing Champi?

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #331 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:42:12 AM »

Alright, I'll let that by, but I'm keeping an eye on you.
I promised myself this after the events of last thread.

Oldmansour · « **Reply #332 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:51:55 AM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 18, 2012, 02:20:46 AM

>Send to Lily: "We're going to need to convince Kiku, and I don't think I can do it alone."

Quote from: Hanzo K. on July 18, 2012, 02:25:48 AM

>Belay

>Lily nods instantly. "I know she's angry, hurt by that demon, but she's not a bad person. I think we can do it."
>Is what she would have said, had you said to her what you thought about saying.

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 18, 2012, 02:39:34 AM

>Has there been any event in our background history that would lead us to be at all in favor of killing Champi?

>No. You don't swat flies if you can help it, let alone snuff out life that, demon or know, is sentient. The idea is appalling to you.
>You've spent a lot of time in your life in hospitals, thanks to your brothers' poor health. You know there are some who prefer, even welcome, death, but the idea of 'death is the only way' never appealed to you in any way.

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #333 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:53:37 AM »

As much as it doesn't appeal, you've already lost this debate.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #334 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:56:48 AM »

So...even the GM outright saying "This is not a thing you'd ever do" is really evidence that the course you've proposed is not a thing she'd do or stand for?

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #335 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:00:52 AM »

* Hanzo K. facepalms

Look, just stand aside this time, alright? You've already been outvoted, 'kay?
I'm trying to keep this as civil as possible, but it's hard to do that when someone's being as obstinate as you are.

Besides, since nobody's willing to back down, how about we, as Byakuren, just stand back and let things fall where they may.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #336 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:10:13 AM »

I am kind trying to point out the position you've taken is not really rational. I've asked for evidence to back it up, and have crushed the crumbs of logical reasons that have been given. I've provided reams of evidence and it has been ignored. Sour has straight up said it's not a thing Byakuren would do just moments ago, and you're ignoring even that. Why are you so fixated on this course in defiance of all evidence that it's not a thing Byakuren would do or condone? What is left, exactly, that justifies it at the moment?

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #337 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:13:53 AM »

This is to support Kiku. Sometimes you can't always take the path that pleases everyone. And isn't Byakuren herself of a self-sacrificing nature?
She'd want to take a hit to keep her friends safe.

So thus, we'll stand back and let Kiku do as she wishes.

>We'll hang back, and be impartial. It may hurt us, but we know things can't always go as ideally as we wish. That's one of the things we've learned.
>But come what may, we'll support whatever choices they make.

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #338 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:20:56 AM »

The reason, Purvis, is the fact that we have no other options (sealing being likely to end in its death anyways, given Kiku's attitude towards it).

Purvis, you've explained your perspective, and we've explained ours. It's pretty clear that we are not going to agree, so it comes down to numbers, and you are, as has been said before, outvoted.

>"I... I'm sorry, Lily, but... I..."
>Try to fight back tears.
>Fail at this.
>"I just... I... I don't see anything we can do."

Um, why does my avater keep changing?
Wait, you guys have it happening, too.

Yugian · « **Reply #339 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:24:28 AM »

(Its on a random cycle. someones having fun with the coding here. it'll do that for awhile methinks.)

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #340 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:41:58 AM »

Thinking on it, there's one more major longterm flaw in this that I don't think has been considered, along side the rest of them

One of Byakuren's major strengths in dealing with these things, and the forces of darkness is general, is that she's beyond temptation and beyond being lured into taking the darker route. In knowingly turning away from her principles and declaring them insufficient, we will never be able to rely on that against. That hole in our shield will always be there, and nothing will ever remove it; because we willingly gave in and turned from it. This will be a major problem once we have to deal with other demons, who are quickly going to be able to exploit that sort of vulnerability and force us into situations like the one Kiku is in, where we won't be able to fight back.

We'll be doing what they want, letting ourself be corrupted and turning from one of our greatest strengths. Thinking on this, it would be playing right into Champi's hand-equivalents. And it would be permanent. You might be able to absolve a sin, but you can't absolve the weakness that allowed for it.

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #341 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:44:06 AM »

Even so, it's still a 2-to-1 in favor of sending batty to the other side.
So why don't we just get this thing resolved already, and find Marigold. Honestly, we're stagnating here man.

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #342 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:14:51 AM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 18, 2012, 07:41:58 AM

You might be able to absolve a sin, but you can't absolve the weakness that allowed for it.

I disagree.

But anyways, Hanzo's right. We've been stuck here for long enough, so let's just move on already.

Yugian · « **Reply #343 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:23:45 AM »

Quote from: GuyYouMetOnline on July 18, 2012, 08:14:51 AM

I disagree.

But anyways, Hanzo's right. We've been stuck here for long enough, so let's just move on already.

(...You get a gold medal sir for those two words. Bravo.
Bah, doesnt stack quote. oh well.)

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #344 on:** July 18, 2012, 04:55:27 PM »

Quote from: GuyYouMetOnline on July 18, 2012, 08:14:51 AM

I disagree.

You may disagree, but the facts stand regardless. Killing is not a thing Byakuren does, from Sour's own posts that you've ignored. Once you turn your back on that, you've giving demons a massive edge to get into your head. You don't just give up your morals because it's convenient, then pick them back up and pretend that nothing ever happened. What you're advocating is a short term "advantage" for a long term kneecapping. Any other demon, or celestial, or anything else that has the power to fuck with our head will be able to pick this up and psychically club us over the brain with it, and there won't be a lot we can do; we gave them that in and we can't pretend it never happened. It's going to be a nice weak spot they can hit whenever they need to disrupt us from doing whatever we're doing. We might be able to protect it mystically, maybe? But it just means we're going to be expending resources that could be used to do what needs to be done elsewhere.

Given we have other options limited literally by own imagination and other ways to console Kiku, there's not much to recommend this even from a metagame viewpoint.

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #345 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:21:18 PM »

You keep saying that, but you have yet to provide another such option.

Face it, Purvis. Hanzo and I have our own opinions on all this, and at this point, it should be clear that you're not going to convince us otherwise (just as it's clear we're not going to be able to convince you otherwise). Given that, it comes down to a vote, and you're outvoted.

Sour, requesting continuation of the RP based on the majority opinion. Continuing on like this is accomplishing nothing.

Oldmansour · « **Reply #346 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:15:59 PM »

Expect an update in the next day or two. There are some details I have to work out before I can continue.

Yugian · « **Reply #347 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:35:05 PM »

(...Not to beat a dead horse, but did ANYONE mention bya killing at this point? Besides you Purvis (For the sake of its negative effects)? I thought people were just saying 'leave things as they were'. not 'Pull out the murder stick and get stabbing'. That doesn't exactly put sin or blood on one's hands. just saying.

Never mind me though, please, get on with it. sorry to comment ^^: )

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #348 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:38:31 PM »

No, we're saying that the demon's death is the only option. So yes, killing was mentioned, and is the outcome Hanzo and I are in support of. ALthough you are right that it won't actually be Byakuren doing the killing; Kiku's likely the one who'll be doing that.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #349 on:** July 19, 2012, 12:24:05 AM »

By no means would we be without blame. We brought her here, we played a major role in getting her into this situation, and we have the ability to dissuade her from doing it. Standing aside and letting it happen would make us an accessory to the killing by any definition.

Yugian · « **Reply #350 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:05:57 AM »

(...Okay. i really don't want an argument to flare up again, and just to keep this calm. Sure, we brought her here, but that doesn't mean we're responsible for her actions. Also look on the flip side, her side. Why would she want to kill something so much? if killing a sin as you say, and its so evil that demons are going to corrupt us without fail (even if we don't actually kill it ourselves, because besides guilt, we would bear no sin. unless sin is an area of effect thing. A merchant who sells a knife to a man who goes to murder someone isn't a sinner now, is he? ), why would a miko, a VERY holy being, want to kill a demon? from what heard and subtle wording side , its because she literally got MIND FUCKED. it brought her to the pits, it made her taste fear and bring her to her lowest. no amount of 'noooes, dont kill it, its a good person' is going to dissuade her right now. hell, I'd fail to see how you could stop her from harboring a bias right now. she WILL kill it, its just if we stand in her way or not. Both sides are NOT wrong here, as this is a VERY open ended question. a 'Paladins issue' as you will. Both sides are right, and none are wrong. Even if it sinful, if you got messed up by someone, you want revenge. When you see them, your emotions run high, and there is LITTLE anyone can do.

The demon, as far as i understand it, is just a Elemental/Conduit with a soul stuck inside. if anything, i'd see it as a soul jar, with the soul being forced to corrupt. its not mercy to let it live in MY opinion. its a hell. im sure the soul does NOT want to corrupt, but given the body itself, it was designed with a purpose. The soul is nothing more then a battery to keep the thing going. It was a soul pulled so that this thing could be a stronger servant at the cost of its torment. in MY opinion, the only way to save it is to FREE it. Look at it how you want, if you want to say its murder, fine. Perhaps you see this in a different way, or that its living so it deserves a chance. im FINE with that view point and i acknowledge it. If my assumption is correct though, the demon is NOT what you need to save. the soul is. If the case that my guess is right, The soul is not guilty of any sin, and we have done it a far greater service then to make it suffer though a body it doesnt belong in. if im wrong, the soul can be absolved of its sin in the cycle of reincarnation, which if im correct, is a MAJOR thing in Buddhism. And quite frankly, i dont see this thing being able to go though a 'treatment' per say to make it stop corrupting. leaving it alive is like leaving a man with a missing leg alive. they'll keep going, but nothing is going to change. Again, i see it as a created being with a purpose. If the purpose is accomplished, it is ether destroyed or reassigned to a new purpose by its owner/master. The design is sloppy, and has shown no regrets for its actions, meaning its creator had NO intention of breathing life into it or keep it longer then they needed. So its not designed to have extra bits like 'feelings' or 'remorse'. it only has its duty. and the soul is forced to obey.)

(Gah... sorry. okay. thats my real two cents. done and done. Please get on with it, i just want this whole sha-bamn to end.
Edit: And please no one say don't say 'oh, you haven't posted in here, your opinion means nothing'. I respect the opinions here. but if you show what i think no respect, You are clearly whats holding things up because you are a single minded totalitarian. Thats all, really.)

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #351 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:36:38 AM »

Actually, that's not quite true. People's whose emotions run high have been talked down from all kinds of things; suicide prevention, hostage negotiations, talking people out of murders... As for the sin, we wouldn't bear the sin of murdering it, we would bear the sin of helping set up the situation and doing nothing to prevent it. We led it to be killed, and did nothing to stop this. Whether Kiku does it anyways is irrelevant, the point is whether we let it happen or don't try to stop it from happening; we accepted the act. That's where the problem comes in, as it is highly out of character, as has been established, simply let it happen and not try to stop it.

As for the soul jar thing, it's plausible but there's no real evidence at this point. Though if you can find a way to get that evidence, I'd be down with it. More information is always good. I would argue, though, that it doesn't matter in light of Buddhist world view. One of the major points of it is that all living things are part of the process, which would include demons. There's a number of stories about the Buddha converting demons, in fact, or setting them toward conversion (Hariti and Sun Wu Kong come to mind immediately, and I am sure there are others). This is why just killing it and sending it onto it's next life wouldn't be acceptable; Buddhism considers any thinking being capable of enlightenment and regards it as improper to kill things in the name of "enlightening" them. This is because it arose as a counter against Hindu, which had pretty rigid castes and did have the idea that you had to serve out your caste's ideals to "advance" to the next level of salvation. The trick will be to open its mind, which is why I think putting it in a place of powerlessness will help it; as it will have to adapt to unfamiliar circumstances by necessity.

Yugian · « **Reply #352 on:** July 19, 2012, 02:28:43 AM »

(That first part is full out true. though, they've typically had some time to think about it to a degree. They're running on emotion, but there's time for second thoughts if you've decided to do this. there's a sense of primal fear and without a gentle hand and genuine, honest and SURE answer, they will not respond to you proper, which i did not acknowledge. Though, i personally think its going to be harder to talk to Kiku then 'its not a bad thing'. WHY is it not bad? WHY are we sure that we can save it? WHY are we dedicating effort to it? unless we can give logical, sound and concrete answers, she will not back down and we look like fools for it. The sin itself... we haven't defiled the 7 deadly ones. No doubt we'd feel horrible and this would also be considered a crime if the circumstances were different... but unless your referring to different set of morale guidelines that call infractions 'sins', i'm assuming your talking about the 7 deadly sins. and this does NOT bust one of those sins. Should Kiku strike it down, Everything it entitles is on her. the only thing we are entitled to is second thoughts and potential guilt. There is no sin for inaction.)

(I cannot get evidence for my guess, as its simply a guess. i can only make it as educated as possible with the information i have and how i believe the process went to creative it. for all i know, its Santa Christ having a REALLY off day and letting him live farts out nukes and letting him die makes the sun go super nova. I don't know. I can only guess and state my opinion. For the later part, I don't think it could achieve enlightenment as it is. Yes, its alive. Yes, its a life. Yes, it can think. But i don't see how. Its not thinking of a reason to do what it does, nor does it think of repenting. Again, soul jar or not, it is a creature with a designed purpose. It is an unnatural being. It was not born with a desire to seek fulfillment and further its line or goals. it is a creature of instinct and and will do its assigned task given to it upon its creation. If it is NOT, then why would spreading corruption benefit it? More place to call a home? The corruption doesn't do that. it makes people go NUTS, like it practically did to kiku. it tried to BREAK her, which it did for a few minutes. its not going to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, and the fact it tried to make her under its wing as a replacement or otherwise suggests its not going to do that. Putting it into a situation of powerlessness DOES indeed force it to take certain actions... but that doesn't mean its doing it out of necessity to survive. Animals, all of us from humans to small beasts, will do what we need to make sure we live. Survival can make strange bed fellows. It can make people believe certain things, it can make people of the same faith throw each other to the wolves if it means they live (Holocost. enough said... please...). just because we have it were it CANNOT act freely doesnt mean we're doing anything to change it.
Also, as far as im aware of, we're not killing it to enlighten it. Thats not how Buddhism works. In killing it, it will eventually reincarnate into its next 'shell' to say to try again to reach enlightenment. Enlightenment comes when the 8 fold path is accomplished and suffering is no longer upon you. death is, to put it simply, a reset to try again and again to get it right. Otherwise, War and Violence would be the fear of all Buddhists everywhere, as it is the main source of 'Unjust killing'. Being on the receiving end would mean that they are for not and they can never achieve enlightenment. Being on the giving end, as no matter how practiced you are, Theres always a chance of killing someone in combat and there ARE Buddhist monks who DO indeed fight when they must, would mean they have just forever ended someones chance of enlightenment. and that simply doesnt happen.)

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #353 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:20:37 AM »

Actually, the answers don't have to be sound or logical, they just need to appeal to her and bring her back down off the high. It certainly helps, but it's not necessary. Emotional appeals might do it, or simply pleading to try a better way. It really doesn't matter if we look like a fool, though. Worrying about such things is tertiary to doing what's right. Also, you do have to remember we won't be alone, Lily's going to be right there with us, so we have strength in numbers, too.

As for sins, I mean it in the more general sense. The seven deadlies don't really even form a coherent guideline on their own, and certainly aren't comprehensive even within Christian doctrine. Inaction is definitely and correctly regarded as a violation in pretty much every moral code (and most non-draconian legal codes; which is why there is accessory to murder as a crime).

As for what you described, as I've mentioned in the past, you've also described how youkai were in canon Byakuren's era; creatures who follow their instincts. And she supported them, to her own detriment. And what you've described are demons in Buddhist parables. That alone is reason enough for Byakuren to want to spare it. And the points you make about fighting don't really apply here, it's not attacking, we've contained it. We could seal it's power, We could banish it back. We could seal it entirely. We could turn it into a goldfish. We have options here, and it would be in character to exercise them. And your interpretation is kind of off about Buddhism; they do oppose war. Pretty stridently; it violates a few parts of the Eightfold Path. Historically, this usually only wavered when temples transitioned from spiritual entities to political entities that the idea of pro-war stuff came about; and usually was eschewed by less worldly practitioners. There's a long as fascinating history behind that, which ties neatly into the Ten Desires story, actually.

I think you're reading me a bit too literally when it comes to survival. There is a difference between survival as just living, and survival as living in a decent manner. It'll want the latter, sapients in general want the latter, and the demon have to adapt and consider new modes of thought to achieve it. Therein lies, I think, a key to opening its mind while neutralizing it as a threat.

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #354 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:23:11 AM »

Why don't we just banish the damn thing then?
We get it out of the way, you get to have your fun in not killing it, everybody bloody wins.
(Just realize it won't be so easy next time.)

Yugian · « **Reply #355 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:24:30 AM »

(ooookay, so sour is dead tired of us doing this, im cutting the debate here. Purvis, if you'd like, we can PM debate this, but otherwise. no more. i already ignited this waaaayyy too damn far, and im sorry for that. so natch. thats all folks.)

(*Talks to people on the side for fun, one of the people being sour*)

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #356 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:27:20 AM »

Banishing it wouldn't work; that'd be letting it go. Hanzo, are you changing your vote to letting the demon go, or are you keeping it the same?

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #357 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:28:04 AM »

Well, we could banish it to another area entirely.
Kinda like sealing it, but more.

In other words, my vote's more in favor of just getting rid of the demon in any way.
Killing, banishing to solitary, anything to get it out of the picture for good. (And no, still not siding with you Purvis.)

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #358 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:36:02 AM »

I don't think there's a world we even could banish it to, as the only other world we even know about at all is the one the demon came from in the first place, and all we even know about that world is that it exists (and that the demon came here from it before, and thus could most certainly do so again). But even if we could banish the demon to a different world, I don't think that's a good choice. I'd rather it be dead than in another world, able to threaten that world just as it did ours. Doesn't really seem like a good solution to me. I think we need to kill it.

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #359 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:40:53 AM »

What if said world was a sealing world? Y'know, like a dimensional bubble?
Purvis himself said it, "This power of ours could do almost anything."
So working on that token, we could theoretically devise a sealing-based technique that sticks it in a dimensional prison.