Author Topic: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?  (Read 35386 times)

nintendonut888

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2009, 06:16:26 PM »
Personally though, I kinda like the PC-98 games BECAUSE they're forgotten. Dozens of characters with little to no fan work devoted to them besides the occasional art, untouched by the vile hand of fanon...it's all open to interpretation. If you have the imagination, you can make your own background and personalities for the characters, because unless ZUN decides to bring them back, who's going to contradict you? Plus it's much easier to claim yourself as a character's biggest fan in the PC-98 games. *snuggles Gengetu*
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Easy Mode

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2009, 06:18:19 PM »
Is it just me, or do some of the PC-98 songs seem more... "heartfelt" then the Windows songs?
Blast me if you will, but the PC-98 songs seem sweeter, imo.

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2009, 06:34:38 PM »
My stance is generally that you might as well wonder where Daiyousei, Minoriko, and Letty have been since their initial appearances -- or, for that matter, where Meira was in PoDD.

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2009, 06:56:51 PM »
I have a couple theories, though mind you they're only theory.

  • Zun made Touhou with Amusement Makers, did most of the work himself.
  • Amusement Makers and Zun may've gotten in a fight over Touhou.
  • Zun left Amusement Makers because of it.
  • Touhou may've or may not have technically been the intellectual property of Amusement Makers (I don't know how japanese copyright law works.)
  • Wanting to part on relatively good terms with each other, Amusement Makers and Zun made a compromise which allowed him to continue work on his series but required him to drop most of the original mythos with a setting reboot.

This would explain why he suddenly just dropped everything and struck out on his own all of the sudden. It'd explain why so few characters are in the new games. It'd especially bring up why he's so reluctant to bring up the past beyond a few curt words. He might just want to put the whole thing behind him and focus on expanding the mythos.

Another possibility is that he considered since he was moving to a new platform, it might be a good way to reset the canon to something more manageable or bring it into an entirely new direction, without needing to write supplementary material explaining it. With most of the old games becoming unplayable and most of the old fanbase dissipating, it'd be the best time to do such a thing as most of the old would be forgotten. In this theory Windows Touhou is only very loosely derived upon the old series, not directly attempting to contradict it it but not necessarily relying on it either .

Really though, at any rate, I don't think it matters too much. I think Touhou is more of a mythos than a story that has any one central plot. Characters come and go as they become more or less important to the important events taking place. Some characters only really do anything noteworthy once in their lives, others are almost always important and the rest are are purely circumstantial. I think it ends up being a more realistic this way. Nobody knows ever knows what happens to even just one other person during every waking moment or even every important detail that happens to said other person. The same thing goes for the general events happening in the world. There are points of our focus and then there's a bunch of behind the scenes stuff we're not really aware of. They might be important, they might not but since we only have a limited point of view, that's just how things work. That's my view on the matter anyway.

Tengukami

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2009, 07:06:54 PM »
I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole MIMA4EVR thing just a meme?

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2009, 07:15:54 PM »
I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole MIMA4EVR thing just a meme?

I'm a massive Mimafag and I can't really explain it. I took my adoration for her so far this year I put a lot of time and money into crossplaying her this year at Otakon.

I suppose the first thing that got me interested was her epic badassery in Touhou Soccer 2. From there I went on to discover more about her and fell into deeper and deeper obsession, now playing PC-98 games as much and almost more than windows games so that I can play games with her in them and doing searches to find all of the remixes of her themes and all the fanart of her I can find.

nintendonut888

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2009, 07:20:44 PM »
IIRC, Amusement Makers was ZUN and his college buddies, and ZUN left when he graduated. I don't think they left on bad terms, especially since 2 years after MS ZUN came to compose music for Shuusou Gyoku and let Reimu and Marisa cameo as extra bosses. I think he also composed at least some of the music in Kioh Gyoku and personally wrote the profile for Yuka (the infamous "youkai moe" spiel), so yeah I'd be surprised if that theory were the case.

I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole MIMA4EVR thing just a meme?

Apparently she's cool and badass and has a cool design. I can respect the fans who like her for that, but the vast majority seem to just be taken in by the MEEEMAAAA cult and haven't even PLAYED any game with her in it.

Quote
Touhou Soccer 2

And for that I guess. Because people can't get over how a fangame portrayed her abilities completely inaccurately.
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Tengukami

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2009, 07:46:48 PM »
Yeah, having asked that, I realize there are pros and cons to every character; qualities that could inspire fandom or hatred. As an Aya fan I understand that all too well. And I'm not knocking Mima - she's the one I play in Mystic Square, after all - I just don't know enough about her to understand the fandom.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2009, 07:53:57 PM »
Quote
Apparently she's cool and badass and has a cool design. I can respect the fans who like her for that, but the vast majority seem to just be taken in by the MEEEMAAAA cult and haven't even PLAYED any game with her in it.

I don't think it's fair to bitch about this too much until someone actually translates the PC98 games. I played them for a bit and read the scripts for the games. I got a feel for Mima's character but I want to know more about her. That's why I'd like her to appear in the newer games. I think saying she's done and dusted with the PC98 games is ludicrous.

Mima

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2009, 08:00:19 PM »
Personally though, I kinda like the PC-98 games BECAUSE they're forgotten. Dozens of characters with little to no fan work devoted to them besides the occasional art, untouched by the vile hand of fanon...it's all open to interpretation. If you have the imagination, you can make your own background and personalities for the characters, because unless ZUN decides to bring them back, who's going to contradict you?
For once, I agree.

I've found myself disliking the fandom more and more partly due to how terrible they treat the characters. As you may know, I strictly follow what's set in canon and dislike anything that varies from it.

The reason I don't want Mima to actually return is just that. Currently she's treated well, her (rare) portrayals are usually quite loyal and her (rare) appearances through art etc usually does her justice. She isn't put in terrible pairings and made to look terrible, much like Yuka is nowadays.

Of course, Of Light and Darkness is all about Mima's background and through my fanworks I've been able to give Mima (And other PC-98) more leniancy and even backgrounds. Of course, you have to make stuff that is still loyal to the character.


Quote
I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special?
For me, it's because she's lesser known and thus the above things were allowed. She has a unique interesting look. She's a more mature character and she has good links with other characters. (For example, the fact she is Marisa's mentor/whatever is pretty awesome). She also has a pretty awesome personality, great themes and is just a character who stands out amongst the rest of the cast.


Edit: The translations exist on the wiki for a reason.

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2009, 08:41:51 PM »
Though I dislike a lot of what the Touhou fandom does, in some ways I can't blame them and it's inevitable. The problem is that the two most popular games, EoSD and PCB don't actually feature very much dialogue. With Mima fandom obviously it's going to be even worse. People make their own assumptions as to what that character is like "Behind the scenes".

It's probably part of the reason ZUN did the Aya interviews. But something tells me it's still not enough. I think ZUN needs to write more short stories from the perspectives of the characters themselves, rather than the fairies or Rinnosuke so we can get a better idea how they think. What little dialogue we get in the games is often witty and inspiring. Some of it is generic anime/manga type shtick, but a lot of it is very nice. Compared to Curiosities of Lotus Asia for example though, it doesn't give a very complete or consistant view of the characters, and not everyone reads Curioisities of Lotus Asia, especially in western fandom.

Also, we remember characters for doing cool shit. Let's face it, Alice is a great character but how much cool shit does she do? Yes, doing stuff with dolls is pretty cool. But can you think of one awesome thing she's done with them exactly? In the games she just spams them around. In the comics and fictions she just sort of makes them.

What I've always wanted to see in Touhou was a greater sense of "epic". I hear SA which I've yet to play has more of a "sinister" feel which might help along these ends, more of a real threat. I think if we had a game where Keine threw herself in front of a ridiculous energy beam or some shit like that, people would learn to respect that character more and shed Womanly tears. On one hand the Touhou fandom is a little more "Hardcore" and less fluffy on some levels than for mainstream japanese media. But since he throws out the characters as near blank canvases you have to work hard to find out about, it negates this since it brings out the Kingdom Hearts Fangirl in everyone.

Of course you'll always get people like with the Final Fantasy fanbase, etc. that will abuse it, but they'll be an annex of the fandom, and more importantly, we won't need to fall back on fan works with a meatier storyline to begin with. But I think the Touhou fanbase is different to a lot of these other "Weeaboo" fandoms despite the overlap, in that the nature of the fandom is to fill in a lot of the blanks, as the meat of Touhou is scattered around between the games, short stories/books and comics, and debatedly in ZUN interviews and some other fan works too.

I know ZUN likes to "take it easy" with his games, but I do start to see a trend in both some of the PC98 games, and Mountain of Faith onwards where there's a sense of developing towards something.

The characters that are suggested at in Touhou games are just something special, the character design is absolutely top notch with tons of variety and we have all kinds of archetypes playing off another. That's why it's so popular. But I would think that while some people including perhaps ZUN himself would disagree, seeing a more story heavy game with a beginning, middle and end where things actually happen in it would really be a defining moment for Touhou, and it still has plenty of "Slice of Life" material to fall back on. Do more of both. More doujin writers actually need to come to ZUN and ask him for advice, it seems only respectful to me. That way we get more "official" stuff and all ZUN has to do is flick through it and correct a couple of things.

Put more story in the games. Put more of a sense of danger in the games. Put Rinnosuke in the games, why not, he's a great character, maybe a few more males too - again this is a huge part of why people do not take Touhou seriously, even though it's not it comes off as a silly lolicon, harem or yuri type affair.

Everytime I play a Touhou game, I get really riled up by the huge attacks and FUCK YES music. But at the end of the day, it doesn't quite go where it feels like it should and I think that is part of what results in a lot of the directionless, misrepresentative fiction.

Touhou is like the really awesome but shy goth girl in the corner who gets all dressed up and ready to make an impression but just ends up going home and drinking Tea listening to the Smiths moping that everyone thinks she's a lesbian. It needs more confidence as a series for people to take it series, and thought ZUN might not like that, it's probably the best way to "protect" his characters and ideas. A lot of people say the dude that does Higurashi does doujin stuff that's more "epic" in nature, but I just don't find the character designs etc. fit it quite as well as Touhou could.

If not ZUN, someone really should honour the ideas I've presented here and clear it by him.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 08:46:59 PM by Rosie Rune »

Chainsaw Guitar

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2009, 08:42:37 PM »
For once, I agree.

I've found myself disliking the fandom more and more partly due to how terrible they treat the characters.

Seconded. I really wish Meiling had a fan base that doesn't treat her like a pin cushion. I mean really, how can you say you're a Meiling fan when most of your fan art of her involves her getting stabbed by Sakuya?!. It just blows my mind... >.>

Speaking of Sakuya, she has got to have slapped with the fanon bat the worst by far. There, she is a horribly ill tempered bitch that goes into a knife flinging fury at the drop of a hat to anyone not named "Remilia Scarlet".

Vile Lasagna

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2009, 09:16:34 PM »
I think that by now people are probably more or less aware that I ABHOR Touhou fandom. Seriously hate it and find 97% of it disgusting bullshit and that the person that came up with that crap should be shot. Sure I have my own ideas and interpretations of how things look like they are behind the scenes and shit. But as a scenario I never really hid that I believe Gensokyou is completely fucked up and pretty much beyond saving. Rosie was saying that the character design is top notch, I disagree entirely, because I don't like things that don't make sense to me, and Gensokyou does NOT make sense. Some "rules of spell card duels" muttered quickly through concealing lips does not convince me. Characters are then stereotyped versions of japanese folklore and a lot of random stuff. Many of them are nice but I still bang on the thing that almost nothing of that makes any kind of sense: Why wouldn't Remilia simply murder Reimu in her sleep? Why is Suwako an apparent underling to Kanako when she's clearly more powerful, despite background story trying to say otherwhise... WHAT THE FUCK WITH EIENTEI?!?!? NONE of IN makes any sense and it is COMPLETELY disregardable!

I will agree with Rosie though on the lack of progress. There's not much change in the world with the exception of the appearance of new characters. Remilia brought about chaos in the earth: nothing happened but now there's SDM. Yuyuko stole all the winter and reimu got it back, end of story... and so and so forth. The truth is that one of the things Zun is NOT is a writer. If he were he wouldn't be able to tolerate that and we would have books and comics and complex sotrylines. But he simply isn't, he just likes to make killer lolis. And then the fandom gets obviously unsatisfied because ALL THE CHARACTERS ARE REALLY REALLY SHALLOW. And you can come with Yukari and Satori at me all you want... this IS a fact. They have some very promising backstory and it ends there. So fandom goes crazy and start trying to fill the holes, except the fandom is retarded and, thus, we get almost exclusively retarded content.

I enjoy touhou for it's challenging gameplay and overall beauty, both graphical, through amazing bullet patterns, and musical. Cause at these things Zun IS very good. But I think that it's a fact we have no choice but to accept that Touhou story is and will very probably forever be a lot of nonsense bullshit.


Finally, @Muffin: Dayousei is a normal generic fairy.

And Lastly:

Mima had a bloodied knife. Can'y compete with a ghost witch that claims she's a god, taught MARISA and walks around carrying a bloodied knife.
rofl bye

Hieda no Aya

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2009, 09:29:27 PM »
The truth is that one of the things Zun is NOT is a writer. If he were he wouldn't be able to tolerate that and we would have books and comics and complex sotrylines.
Complex storylines I'll give you (besides all that Bougetsushou background stuff that didn't really end up coming into play and we can only hope to revisit unless the end of CiLR sorts it out)... but we don't have books and comics? News to me.

Vile Lasagna

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2009, 09:44:10 PM »
We have some official stuff but it's not like it takes us anywhere.
rofl bye

Letty Whiterock

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2009, 10:04:40 PM »

?q

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2009, 10:11:15 PM »
I seriously don't understand the Shinki fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole SHEENKEE4EVR thing just a meme?
Fixed.

Moerin

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2009, 10:13:09 PM »
Bah, everyone knows all the cool kids want Yumemi to return.
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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2009, 10:15:12 PM »
Bah, everyone knows all the cool kids want Yumemi to return.
Utsuho ate her.
(But before then, she was a goddess!)

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2009, 10:17:09 PM »
I think that by now people are probably more or less aware that I ABHOR Touhou fandom. Seriously hate it and find 97% of it disgusting bullshit and that the person that came up with that crap should be shot. Sure I have my own ideas and interpretations of how things look like they are behind the scenes and shit. But as a scenario I never really hid that I believe Gensokyou is completely fucked up and pretty much beyond saving. Rosie was saying that the character design is top notch, I disagree entirely, because I don't like things that don't make sense to me, and Gensokyou does NOT make sense. Some "rules of spell card duels" muttered quickly through concealing lips does not convince me.

I don't think things like Spell Cards are meant to be understood literally. They're one of those weird fantasy maguffins.

And actually, you're wrong, Gensokyo is not beyond saving. ZUN has made some effort to develop a coherent world there but really not enough. With the right kind of retcons(Which happens in so very many comics anyway, they don't grow without this, and Touhou is closest in nature to a comic) the Touhou world could be really good.

Quote
Characters are then stereotyped versions of japanese folklore and a lot of random stuff. Many of them are nice but I still bang on the thing that almost nothing of that makes any kind of sense: Why wouldn't Remilia simply murder Reimu in her sleep? Why is Suwako an apparent underling to Kanako when she's clearly more powerful, despite background story trying to say otherwhise... WHAT THE FUCK WITH EIENTEI?!?!? NONE of IN makes any sense and it is COMPLETELY disregardable!

But this is part of what makes Touhou interesting for people, even if it in someways contradicts what I said. Have you read CoLA much out of interest? Rinnosuke is a bit like you, constantly complaining about the illogical practices of the Gensokyo girls. It's MEANT to be like that. Yeah, it's kind of a cop out, but I think it's actually well done enough to not be entirely so.

Quote
I will agree with Rosie though on the lack of progress. There's not much change in the world with the exception of the appearance of new characters. Remilia brought about chaos in the earth: nothing happened but now there's SDM. Yuyuko stole all the winter and reimu got it back, end of story... and so and so forth. The truth is that one of the things Zun is NOT is a writer.

You know, I disagree. I really, really enjoy the the actual Touhou writings. A lot of it reminds me of Terry Pratchett actually, especially the comments on Remilia and manipulating faith. I think ZUN has a much more coherent worldview than people give him credit for, it's just very hard to describe. It's got elements of both beng high concept and a muddle of sci-fi-ish reality fucking craziness.

Quote
If he were he wouldn't be able to tolerate that and we would have books and comics and complex sotrylines. But he simply isn't, he just likes to make killer lolis. And then the fandom gets obviously unsatisfied because ALL THE CHARACTERS ARE REALLY REALLY SHALLOW. And you can come with Yukari and Satori at me all you want... this IS a fact. They have some very promising backstory and it ends there. So fandom goes crazy and start trying to fill the holes, except the fandom is retarded and, thus, we get almost exclusively retarded content.

I think you're agreeing with me more than you realise. I think Touhou like a lot of things is similar to 60s Marvel, great ideas but everything needs to be fleshed out. And I think it can be. I mean even Stan Lee became a much more "mature" writer. I think ZUN can too and has already proven himself to an extent.

Vile Lasagna

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2009, 10:38:48 PM »
Hmm.. maybe. I've seen little of the official stuff, only enough to be shooed away like a devil sprinkled with holy water. I'd like to think that Gensokyou has saving but it's hard to believe and though I'd like to I don't really believe in Zun. But I have a general posture of "let's wait and see". Who knows I might end up being positively surprised but as far as I can see right now? A senseless world that should've collapsed under random overpowered lolis all around. About Terry, I dunno... Discworld feels more honest in it's nonsense so it works really really well. With Gensokyou, I dunno...I don't get that "and this is how things work".
But well, let's wait and see... and graze
rofl bye

nintendonut888

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2009, 10:48:00 PM »
Funny, because if you look at the written works (CoLA in particular), you get a good view into the workings of Gensokyo that only a few people understand completely in the series. Touhou has no overarching plot, but it does have a fair bit of development of the world it takes place in.
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Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

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Letty Whiterock

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2009, 11:07:54 PM »
Vile, I love and fully support your signature.

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2009, 11:17:37 PM »
There is actually a lot of consistancy between the official printed works, with the one exception of Alice's character which probably causes a lot of confusion, in S&BND she stated she rarely leaves the house, doesn't put on shows, whereas in the the written works it says she does. I guess she evolved as a character though, which would be nice, but I'd like it outright stated instead of just vaguely implied by her presence in IN and SA.

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2009, 11:35:27 PM »
Quote
All this shit about Touhou Fandom
Which is partly why I hate fandom as a whole myself. Leave it to some nameless fairy to turn Aya into the whore of Gensokyo who is the waifu of the creator and seduced him to have her spot in a game centered around herself and her shrewd photography skills, or Suwako who has a googly eyed straw hat that just so happens to be some form of a sentinent parasite that actively controls the brain of it's wearer and makes us all see the host as some irrate, croaking little girl who's simply a victim of external parasitism. Alice is beyond saving even though she herself was a PC98 character once. I mean really...a tsundere, borderline yandere, who has a weak anus and thus leaks chronic diarrhea? Yeah, some one gimme a lead pipe cuz someone's about to have their head reworked in the manual fashion.

In that sense, I suppose I would have to withdraw from my notion of 'bringing PC98 characters back'. God help me if they got their hands on some of the more 'pure' characters of the series, Shinki, Mima, and Yuka probably got touched by fanon but not in the sense of everyone else (Shinki's ahoge, Yuka being a sadist, ect). Although I still say some explanations on certain things in the PC98 games, still couldn't hurt anything. I at least want some closure to things if anything else. Don't leave me hanging ZUN, that shit's not cool, ese.
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Mima

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2009, 11:43:50 PM »
Have you seen Yuka images lately, it's being defiled with shitty YukaxWriggle all the time now. Sure, let's get the most violent and anti-social character and pair them up with a stage 1 boss, makes total sense.

nintendonut888

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2009, 11:56:00 PM »
Yuka X Wriggle makes some semblance of sense, since bugs pollinate flowers. And Yuka's not really anti-social, she just scares everybody away. She seems to like going on lectures about flowers to anyone who passes by after all.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Mima

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2009, 12:05:53 AM »


In before, hey wait but that's fandom

Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2009, 12:20:36 AM »
What is that from.

Mima

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Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2009, 12:30:22 AM »
It's a screenshot from Lotus Land Story.  :V